Lucky Ghost said that Corruption is not different enough from L2 Karma.
And Steven countered his assumptions with changes to said system. And those changes (on top of the Stat Dampening) make AoC's penalties for going Red muuuch higher than L2's.
So when we said "People didn't PK all that much in L2", you can now imagine that people would PK even less in Ashes. Well, at least if the balancing doesn't change drastically during testing.
Lucky Ghost said that Corruption is not different enough from L2 Karma.
And Steven countered his assumptions with changes to said system. And those changes (on top of the Stat Dampening) make AoC's penalties for going Red muuuch higher than L2's.
So when we said "People didn't PK all that much in L2", you can now imagine that people would PK even less in Ashes. Well, at least if the balancing doesn't change drastically during testing.
One critique of this video that I have is the "you can't see player hp" point. L2 showed you 0 info about your target's hp values. Ashes will show you, at the very least, how much dmg your target has already received, maybe even their rough hp% values.
In other words it'll be easier to avoid corruption when trying to hit a player who's being attacked by mobs.
Oof, yeah pretty embarassing. Exposed and debunked. Even Narc called out Asmongold in his latest video.
Good to see people standing up and pushing back. Now the only question is, will Steven hold the line or fold. I think he'll hold. Depends on the day you ask me lol.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
And Steven countered his assumptions with changes to said system. And those changes (on top of the Stat Dampening) make AoC's penalties for going Red muuuch higher than L2's.
So when we said "People didn't PK all that much in L2", you can now imagine that people would PK even less in Ashes. Well, at least if the balancing doesn't change drastically during testing.
I don't think Steven necessarily countered what Lucky Ghost said.
Much different is going to be subjective.
The changes Steven listed may be different enough to you and not different enough to Lucky Ghost.
And... we'd still need to test Alpha 2 to know.
Also...
In dungeons... I think both Lucky Ghost and Asmongold discussed ways to grief that would bypass Corruption -- like trains.
In dungeons... I think both Lucky Ghost and Asmongold discussed ways to grief that would bypass Corruption -- like trains.
Yeah, that'll come down to mob AI, agro design and class counteragro abilities (if any). I could see a few way of countering that kind of griefing so I'm sure Intrepid has had at least a few ideas too.
One critique of this video that I have is the "you can't see player hp" point. L2 showed you 0 info about your target's hp values. Ashes will show you, at the very least, how much dmg your target has already received, maybe even their rough hp% values.
In other words it'll be easier to avoid corruption when trying to hit a player who's being attacked by mobs.
And Steven countered his assumptions with changes to said system. And those changes (on top of the Stat Dampening) make AoC's penalties for going Red muuuch higher than L2's.
So when we said "People didn't PK all that much in L2", you can now imagine that people would PK even less in Ashes. Well, at least if the balancing doesn't change drastically during testing.
I don't think Steven necessarily countered what Lucky Ghost said.
Much different is going to be subjective.
The changes Steven listed may be different enough to you and not different enough to Lucky Ghost.
And... we'd still need to test Alpha 2 to know.
Also...
In dungeons... I think both Lucky Ghost and Asmongold discussed ways to grief that would bypass Corruption -- like trains.
Ya but they also said you can do that on pure pve as well, so it doesn't make any difference. Not really a strong point as players could do that to troll you. But in a pvp game you could just dec their guild or flag on them.
Woo. Yeah. Mob trains. I haven't died to a mob train since the 7th grade. Still think about it to this day. It just takes time ya know.
I did that back in shadowbane where some group teleported my friend and I out there and we decided to kill our party instead. Pulled extra mobs and flagged on them killing and looting all their bodies. Was good times.
They could use special threat metrics possibility to make it more annoying to do with more risk tot he uder dying than the people in the dungeon maybe.
Like if you aggro a mob and try to pull it really far even if a aoe from another party hits it the mob still aggros you or something and doesn't get pulled tot he party fighting mobs as easily. It be a mix of how far it is pulled and two different parties dealing damage, as well as size of those parties.
Ie if you are pulling a group, dragging them far and in a smaller party than the other, the mobs will be more aggressive to you even if aoes are hitting them, ensuring you die first.
Yeah. My father was killed in the great mob train of '98. Had to hit the respawn button. He wasn't really the same after that. He'd have these outbursts, he'd yell "fkn nerds!" then mumble under his breath. If you approached him he was always craning his neck to see if other things were behind you, he'd even start like...flanking you, just to make sure.
Relief didn't come until...oh I guess it was around 2008, with the launch of Hello Kitty Online. And then Wizard 101, same year. Got him set up on those games. They really seemed to help. But if I'm being fully honest, he was never the same again.
Yea reading through I guess I shouldn't have even mentioned Asmongold or Lucky Ghost. Asmon has some good takes generally but also tends to have some bad ones like here with open world PvP which I enjoy a lot. Lucky Ghost is new to me and I could already tell he was some form of ESO fanboy turned FFXIV? Fanboy I guess or something like that...
I'm always the person screaming out that these mythical ganker dudemanbros that people are so comically afraid of, as if they lurk in every bush and they have to look out for the whole time they play, quite honestly are so rare you can go months without running into any issues... While Ashes is set to be one of the biggest worlds we have seen right at launch... The player base will most likely spread out .. between nodes, guilds and alliances you might even barely see any type of random flagging as well since there won't be teleports people have to actually group up and coordinate even ganks as long as most people actually try to make friends and play together.. it is an mmo for God's sakes. To me the ganking fear tends to come from viewing streamers play these types of games and people see the constant deaths... That's just stream sniping and it comes with being a stream... Your average Joe player no one really cares to flag on you for no reason.
I won't go back into detail since on page 1 I'm a reply to Natasha I outline the system in better detail but this was meant to be more incentive to PvP because it essentially allows the dungeons to be more of a battleground with without having to worry about corruption, only if the system is being used, it was simply an idea to avoid randoms solo training or just being annoying... Though I do agree in all honesty I haven't seen that kind of stuff since I played EQ2 20 years ago... And even then it still happened on PvE servers...
Also for those asking why npcs and not just have players guard.. That was obviously an option just like caravans... But in order to allow the dungeon areas to become a battleground if no players accept to defend then obviously there needs to be npcs to fill the role and fulfill the requirements to keep the area like a battleground.
I would completely agree with you guys if Ashes was "sold" to the masses by being a PvP open world mmo game. However the truth is that it was "sold" as PvX game - which is kinda against of what you were talking about
If everything in the game is subject to PvP then the game can only be PvP focused
fyi PvP is like a dye - if you pour a bucket of green dye into a river, everyone will say the river is green - not a mix of pure and green water
I would completely agree with you guys if Ashes was "sold" to the masses by being a PvP open world mmo game. However the truth is that it was "sold" as PvX game - which is kinda against of what you were talking about
If everything in the game is subject to PvP then the game can only be PvP focused
fyi PvP is like a dye - if you pour a bucket of green dye into a river, everyone will say the river is green - not a mix of pure and green water
I think the intention is to mix into the typical boring PvE life a bit of PvP. They call it "risk".
The threshold where the masses start calling it PvP has yet to be determined. Below that threshold is PvX. If the risk is 0, then is pure PvE.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
Masses will call it PvP if they have no recourse to prevent it happening - in other words you either start doing PvP - endure corpsewalking or quit the game
Masses will call it PvP if they have no recourse to prevent it happening - in other words you either start doing PvP - endure corpsewalking or quit the game
And they'll be proud for realizing they can do it. The name is not important if they like it. While the game may end up being labeled as PvP, if the % of these activities is with more PvE, crafting, gathering than fighting other players, some players will call it PvX.
I bet players will die more often being killed by NPCs than by other players.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited October 2022
Ha.
You seem to think that people have a problem wth dying rather than having a problem with non-consensual PvP and PvPers.
Ha.
You seem to think that people have a problem wth dying rather than having a problem with non-consensual PvP and PvPers.
NPC attacks are non-consensual too.
I tried finding out what bothers you. You didn't said clearly but I understood you like PvE because NPCs have tether and they give up when you run away.
Steven cannot put a tether on other players but he thought will help you out and CC will not work on greens anymore and you can run away just like from mobs. And if the one who tries to kill you is corrupted, then you can CC him and stay green. Then maybe you can even dance around him.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited October 2022
I told you very clearly what bothers me.
I consider PvP to be more hardcore gameplay than my general casual, non-competitive gameplay.
I sometimes like objective-based PvP for short periods of time if I am defending a town.
When I'm not in the mood for PvP, I do not want to be obligated to PvP just because some other player wants me to PvP with them. And, I want to be able to explore and PvE across the entire map without being auto-flagged as a Combatant.
I don't think I said that I like PvE because NPCs have a tether and they give up when I run away.
Rather, I said that I'm OK with NPCs because it's fairly easy for me to Stealth past them or explore and gather outside of their aggro range - and on top of that - if I choose to run from them, they have a tether and will eventually give up.
I can easily control the behaviors of NPCs in ways that are not possible with actual Human players.
Dealing with NPCs is more casual gameplay than PvP.
Steven cannot put a tether on players.
He thought Corruption might act well enough as a kind of thether which would adequately deter non-consensual PvP.
But, then he added a permanent zone that does not have Corruption. And that is an automatic dealbreaker for me.
Players in the Open Seas don't gain Corruption.
Though that really has nothing to do with dungeons.
But, then he added a permanent zone that does not have Corruption. And that is an automatic dealbreaker for me.
Players in the Open Seas don't gain Corruption.
Yes yes, ships don't get CC either but we still have to see how ship to ship combat is. Your attitude may change later once that is revealed.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited October 2022
Ship to ship combat is irrelevant if I am auto-flagged as a Combatant.
If there is a permanent zone where I'm auto-flagged as a Combatant, I just won't play the game, but...
That is a totally different topic than griefing in dungeons.
In dungeons, players are Non-Combatants by default and Corruption is in play.
On topic... Lucky Ghost opines that Corruption is not different enough from Karma.
I'd have to test Corruption in Alpha 2 to know if that is an accurate assessment.
I don't need to test Alpha 2 to know how I feel about permanent auto-flag zone.
Ship to ship combat is irrelevant if I am auto-flagged as a Combatant.
If there is a permanent zone where I'm auto-flagged as a Combatant, I just won't play the game, but...
That is a totally different topic than griefing in dungeons.
In dungeons, players are Non-Combatants by default and Corruption is in play.
On topic... Lucky Ghost opines that Corruption is not different enough from Karma.
I'd have to test Corruption in Alpha 2 to know if that is an accurate assessment.
I don't need to test Alpha 2 to know how I feel about permanent auto-flag zone.
What if the element of gameplay is only 10-15% of your experience?
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited October 2022
I don't necessarily care about other people's ships.
I want to be able to explore the depths of the Open Seas as a Non-Combatant, with the same flagging system that exists on land.
That's not "safe".
I don't necessarily care about other people's ships.
I want to be able to explore the depths of the Open Seas as a Non-Combatant, with the same flagging system that exists on land.
That's not "safe".
What if there isn't that much to explore though? And if there were certain points like under water dungeons its normal flagging system? And you can make it so you can get to where you want most the time without issues during that 10-15% of your experience effectively avoiding pvp?
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited October 2022
Steven says that the reason for auto-flagging in the Open Seas is that there are unique NPCs and unique treasures to find in the Open Seas - and with greater rewards comes greater risk.
The way it has always played out on PvP-optional servers - "most of the time" is insufficient.
Which is why I always move from PvP-optional servers to PvE-Only servers.
So, there has to be a compelling reason for players who typically play on PvE-Only servers to play on what is effectively a PvP-server.
Corruption acting as a deterrent for non-consensual PvP is supposed to be the compelling reason.
And... having a permanent auto-flag zone with no Corruption skews the server too close to a PvP server for my interests, so...
No... that doesn't work. For me.
Mileage may vary for other folk who typically play on PvE-Only servers.
But, again... that's really a different topic than dungeon griefing with Corruption.
Steven says that the reason for auto-flagging in the Open Seas is that there are unique NPCs and unique treasures to find in the Open Seas - and with greater rewards comes greater risk.
The way it has always played out on PvP-optional servers - "most of the time" is insufficient.
Which is why I always move from PvP-optional servers to PvE-Only servers.
So, there has to be a compelling reason for players who typically play on PvE-Only servers to play on what is effectively a PvP-server.
Corruption acting as a deterrent for non-consensual PvP is supposed to be the compelling reason.
And... having a permanent auto-flag zone with no Corruption skews the server too close to a PvP server for my interests, so...
No... that doesn't work. For me.
Mileage may vary for other folk who typically play on PvE-Only servers.
But, again... that's really a different topic than dungeon griefing with Corruption.
Suppose it is a bit different, so ill just end my last point on this. The unique npc and treasures might not be as big a deal as you might think, it could be more of a generic like thing, like akin to gathering and finding rare mats though focused more around a type of pvp content. Sow hen you feel like some pvp and want to go around he water it could be fun. But it might not even be a gameplay you are missing out on much, with lands being a lot more fun to explore than just running around on the open water.
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If it's a generic thing, it would still have to be same flagging as on land - with Corruption.
Just finding mats. Doesn't even have to be rare mats.
If there are mats to be gathered and NPCs to visit in the Open Seas, the flagging needs to be the same as it is on land.
If there is no Corruption in the Open Seas, it's a dealbreaker for me.
Naval Caravans should suffice as well as land Caravans for PvP.
Gameplay I'm missing out on is irrelevant if I'm auto-flagged as a Combatant.
'Cause if there is a permanant zone that auto-flags as Combatant, I just won't play the game and ignore all of the gameplay.
Comments
So when we said "People didn't PK all that much in L2", you can now imagine that people would PK even less in Ashes. Well, at least if the balancing doesn't change drastically during testing.
Red's getting cc'd like..
In other words it'll be easier to avoid corruption when trying to hit a player who's being attacked by mobs.
Oof, yeah pretty embarassing. Exposed and debunked. Even Narc called out Asmongold in his latest video.
Good to see people standing up and pushing back. Now the only question is, will Steven hold the line or fold. I think he'll hold. Depends on the day you ask me lol.
Much different is going to be subjective.
The changes Steven listed may be different enough to you and not different enough to Lucky Ghost.
And... we'd still need to test Alpha 2 to know.
Also...
In dungeons... I think both Lucky Ghost and Asmongold discussed ways to grief that would bypass Corruption -- like trains.
They shouldn't show hp values imo or any hints.
Ya but they also said you can do that on pure pve as well, so it doesn't make any difference. Not really a strong point as players could do that to troll you. But in a pvp game you could just dec their guild or flag on them.
I did that back in shadowbane where some group teleported my friend and I out there and we decided to kill our party instead. Pulled extra mobs and flagged on them killing and looting all their bodies. Was good times.
They could use special threat metrics possibility to make it more annoying to do with more risk tot he uder dying than the people in the dungeon maybe.
Like if you aggro a mob and try to pull it really far even if a aoe from another party hits it the mob still aggros you or something and doesn't get pulled tot he party fighting mobs as easily. It be a mix of how far it is pulled and two different parties dealing damage, as well as size of those parties.
Ie if you are pulling a group, dragging them far and in a smaller party than the other, the mobs will be more aggressive to you even if aoes are hitting them, ensuring you die first.
Relief didn't come until...oh I guess it was around 2008, with the launch of Hello Kitty Online. And then Wizard 101, same year. Got him set up on those games. They really seemed to help. But if I'm being fully honest, he was never the same again.
I'm always the person screaming out that these mythical ganker dudemanbros that people are so comically afraid of, as if they lurk in every bush and they have to look out for the whole time they play, quite honestly are so rare you can go months without running into any issues... While Ashes is set to be one of the biggest worlds we have seen right at launch... The player base will most likely spread out .. between nodes, guilds and alliances you might even barely see any type of random flagging as well since there won't be teleports people have to actually group up and coordinate even ganks as long as most people actually try to make friends and play together.. it is an mmo for God's sakes. To me the ganking fear tends to come from viewing streamers play these types of games and people see the constant deaths... That's just stream sniping and it comes with being a stream... Your average Joe player no one really cares to flag on you for no reason.
I won't go back into detail since on page 1 I'm a reply to Natasha I outline the system in better detail but this was meant to be more incentive to PvP because it essentially allows the dungeons to be more of a battleground with without having to worry about corruption, only if the system is being used, it was simply an idea to avoid randoms solo training or just being annoying... Though I do agree in all honesty I haven't seen that kind of stuff since I played EQ2 20 years ago... And even then it still happened on PvE servers...
Also for those asking why npcs and not just have players guard.. That was obviously an option just like caravans... But in order to allow the dungeon areas to become a battleground if no players accept to defend then obviously there needs to be npcs to fill the role and fulfill the requirements to keep the area like a battleground.
If everything in the game is subject to PvP then the game can only be PvP focused
fyi PvP is like a dye - if you pour a bucket of green dye into a river, everyone will say the river is green - not a mix of pure and green water
― Plato
I think the intention is to mix into the typical boring PvE life a bit of PvP. They call it "risk".
The threshold where the masses start calling it PvP has yet to be determined. Below that threshold is PvX. If the risk is 0, then is pure PvE.
― Plato
And they'll be proud for realizing they can do it. The name is not important if they like it. While the game may end up being labeled as PvP, if the % of these activities is with more PvE, crafting, gathering than fighting other players, some players will call it PvX.
I bet players will die more often being killed by NPCs than by other players.
You seem to think that people have a problem wth dying rather than having a problem with non-consensual PvP and PvPers.
I tried finding out what bothers you. You didn't said clearly but I understood you like PvE because NPCs have tether and they give up when you run away.
Steven cannot put a tether on other players but he thought will help you out and CC will not work on greens anymore and you can run away just like from mobs. And if the one who tries to kill you is corrupted, then you can CC him and stay green. Then maybe you can even dance around him.
I consider PvP to be more hardcore gameplay than my general casual, non-competitive gameplay.
I sometimes like objective-based PvP for short periods of time if I am defending a town.
When I'm not in the mood for PvP, I do not want to be obligated to PvP just because some other player wants me to PvP with them. And, I want to be able to explore and PvE across the entire map without being auto-flagged as a Combatant.
I don't think I said that I like PvE because NPCs have a tether and they give up when I run away.
Rather, I said that I'm OK with NPCs because it's fairly easy for me to Stealth past them or explore and gather outside of their aggro range - and on top of that - if I choose to run from them, they have a tether and will eventually give up.
I can easily control the behaviors of NPCs in ways that are not possible with actual Human players.
Dealing with NPCs is more casual gameplay than PvP.
Steven cannot put a tether on players.
He thought Corruption might act well enough as a kind of thether which would adequately deter non-consensual PvP.
But, then he added a permanent zone that does not have Corruption. And that is an automatic dealbreaker for me.
Players in the Open Seas don't gain Corruption.
Though that really has nothing to do with dungeons.
Yes yes, ships don't get CC either but we still have to see how ship to ship combat is. Your attitude may change later once that is revealed.
If there is a permanent zone where I'm auto-flagged as a Combatant, I just won't play the game, but...
That is a totally different topic than griefing in dungeons.
In dungeons, players are Non-Combatants by default and Corruption is in play.
On topic... Lucky Ghost opines that Corruption is not different enough from Karma.
I'd have to test Corruption in Alpha 2 to know if that is an accurate assessment.
I don't need to test Alpha 2 to know how I feel about permanent auto-flag zone.
It is a combatan world for combatan content and anyway the sea is a dangerous place anyway. Stay Safe my friendo.
Have a
What if the element of gameplay is only 10-15% of your experience?
I want to be able to explore the depths of the Open Seas as a Non-Combatant, with the same flagging system that exists on land.
That's not "safe".
I still have many a
What if there isn't that much to explore though? And if there were certain points like under water dungeons its normal flagging system? And you can make it so you can get to where you want most the time without issues during that 10-15% of your experience effectively avoiding pvp?
The way it has always played out on PvP-optional servers - "most of the time" is insufficient.
Which is why I always move from PvP-optional servers to PvE-Only servers.
So, there has to be a compelling reason for players who typically play on PvE-Only servers to play on what is effectively a PvP-server.
Corruption acting as a deterrent for non-consensual PvP is supposed to be the compelling reason.
And... having a permanent auto-flag zone with no Corruption skews the server too close to a PvP server for my interests, so...
No... that doesn't work. For me.
Mileage may vary for other folk who typically play on PvE-Only servers.
But, again... that's really a different topic than dungeon griefing with Corruption.
Suppose it is a bit different, so ill just end my last point on this. The unique npc and treasures might not be as big a deal as you might think, it could be more of a generic like thing, like akin to gathering and finding rare mats though focused more around a type of pvp content. Sow hen you feel like some pvp and want to go around he water it could be fun. But it might not even be a gameplay you are missing out on much, with lands being a lot more fun to explore than just running around on the open water.
Just finding mats. Doesn't even have to be rare mats.
If there are mats to be gathered and NPCs to visit in the Open Seas, the flagging needs to be the same as it is on land.
If there is no Corruption in the Open Seas, it's a dealbreaker for me.
Naval Caravans should suffice as well as land Caravans for PvP.
Gameplay I'm missing out on is irrelevant if I'm auto-flagged as a Combatant.
'Cause if there is a permanant zone that auto-flags as Combatant, I just won't play the game and ignore all of the gameplay.
I dunno what you mean by - "more fun to explore".