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A Soft Flag, Hard Flag (& Camp Flag?) system that works alongside the Corruption and Open World PVP
novercalis
Member, Founder, Kickstarter
1) Please read the entire thing before jumping into conclusion.
2) This isnt 100% fleshed out, as I expect people to find flaws, let's improve on it.
3) I am not anti pvp. In fact once you understand the concept, I am only trying to protect 1 type of player, the "leveling" players.
4) This doesnt change any core mechanics or pillars to AoC PVP system or corruption system at all. It works alongside with it.
What is a Soft Flag?
A Soft Flag is a mechanics that informs you, you have opted into world pvp.
How does one become soft flagged?
90% of the items in Ashes of Creation should automatically Soft Flag you.
This includes all crafting mats, all resources gathered. If it has a purpose to Siege, Castle/Guild/Faction/Node Wars/Crafting - it will soft flag you.
What are those 10% items that dont? How do I prevent myself from Soft Flagging?
GREY TRASH ITEMS and Quest Items only.
Grey items are useless junks that it's only purpose is to sell to a NPC for meager coins only. NOTHING ELSE.
Thus - a soft flag system allows the PVE player to LEVEL UP and gain a little bit of coin safely by avoiding being soft flagged. If he/she wishes to carry other loot, they can, it's gonna be at the cost of risk/reward. So for all the levelers, go ahead and quest and make meager coins. your entire purpose and arguement is to level up only. You are getting XP and some coins.
THIS DOES NOT PROTECT GATHERERS.
Purpose of Soft Flag?
What purpose do you have killing a naked level 10 who is carrying nothing? None * (* exception - see Camp Flag below)
How does it work?
When a player attempts to attack another player - you'll get a notification that this player isn't soft flagged. It will then prompt you another question - Do you wish to proceed and Hard Flag yourself?
What is a Hard Flag?
A hard flag is a mechanic that informs the aggressive player, that you are putting yourself at risk of corruption if the defender chooses not to fight back. That's it.
What is the purpose of a Hard Flag?
While griefing players in general sucks for reason - sometimes there are reasons. Clearing an area for your guildies that you wish to power level may be one. (*see camp flag). But if there is no reason at all, other than senseless killing - you acknowledge the risk for your actions and the penalty is doubled via corruption system.
Regardless Hard flag works in unison with Corruption.
Corruption system - NOTHING CHANGES in principle. But the rate of corruption is increased in Hard Flag.
Example:
you are a level 60 player, you see a level 10 naked chopping trees.
That level 10 is soft flagged to you, you can proceed to kill him for those resources.
What is the current system for this scenario? That depends if he/she fought back and gave you corruption. Regardless you were gonna do it with or without the soft flag in place. Nothing changes for you and the victim.
But now, the level 10 naked HAD NO resources, thus not soft flagged.
What reason do you have, to kill him/her? you have none. So you shouldn't be allowed to kill him/her for the sheer
fuck of it. BUT IF YOU MUST, you can 'HARD FLAG' yourself. and still attack, just this time - you acknowledge the corruption penalty is increased. Probably double the amount. Merely to discourage pointless killing.
NUANCE
What if I want to clear a player/group from an area?
Hopefully they are soft flagged, so nothing really changes in terms of potential corruption.
however if they arent, they are killing orcs from a know high XP Camp spots and not soft flagging themselves, one can argue - this is a resource I consider valuable to kill over for.
This part, I am uncertain how to approach things. As I do not want to deter and create anti PvP. This is a valid aspect of the game. Wether they are 5, 10, 30, 50 level difference - you may be doing it for guildies, for alts, for power leveling services - nothing wrong with that. A Soft/Hard Flag may not do much. Or May do TOO MUCH.
This aspect is tricky to navigate, as it's a fine line into Anti PvP vs Anti-Griefing and what constitute Griefing in the eyes of AoC Devs. How do you promote PvP, since the concept of this flag is about fighting over resources. But XP Camps are also resources - maybe not to YOU the high level player, but for your guildies, low level friends that you want to secure. While it sucks - how do ensure the high lvl player isnt being punished within gameplay / tos
One idea - uncertain on how it can be abused - is perhaps - there should be something in the Orc Camp that allows you to Click on and "CAMP FLAG" yourself. This Indicate to the corruption system, that, in the event you kill someone and get corrupted, you are not dealt with double the penalty points. I think the potential corruptions you would normally get should be "PENDING" - as long as you remain in that area for X amount of time - which indicates you fought and killed someone for that location was a VALID REASON to not be penalized.
Example for clarification.
A Group of 5 level 12 players fighting Orcs. They haven't looted anything that would Soft flag them to you.
YOU, the level 60 player want that orc camp for your 3 level 10 friends. You have few options:
Option 1 - Have your 3 friends fight for the camp, you watch. (BOOOOO)
Option 2 - Tough Luck, you cant do anything (BOOOOOO)(This must be stated by AoC ToS and camp rules and/or harassment/bullying rules. If nothing is stated, it's open season for pvp imho)
Option 3 - Hired Gun - Bring someone bigger to push them out.
So you have opted for option 3.
You approach the camp, you talk to them, they refuse. Open the Map or click on the ORC NPC Menu when it spawns - this should give you the ability to "CAMP FLAG".
Camp Flag means - as long as you stayed in this area for X amount of time (let's say 30 minutes min) any corrupted actions that you may have done is nulled or reduce.
So, now as the level 60, you ended up having to "Hard Flag' yourself for combat and killed all 5 of them. They never fought back. They attempt to give you corruption points. Those points are on Hold. If you leave the area, you are considered a griefer by the hard flag system and gain a SHIT TON OF CORRUPTION.
When you leave the area, you are given a 2-3 min warning to return to the area or face the corruption penalty.
If you stayed within the allotted time - the system will recognize that you fought over a valuable area. The only punishment you will get is the same basic corruption points you would have gotten anyways with the current system. MAYBE LESS OR NONE AT ALL.
STILL - while in Camp Flag, you also Flag yourself to Bounty Hunters for PvP. It is up to them to decide if they want to answer the call on a potential corrupted player. Maybe you are a different color to Bounty Hunter in Camp Flag mode, to indicate stuff, but it promotes more PVP which imho is a good thing. Checks and Balances.
I am sure there might be other scenario that may conflict with this, or other things that this doesn't resolve. I am open to hearing it and attempting to find a solution. I do believe this is a very FAIR take on Open PVP that doesn't promote anti-pvp or prevent pretty much anything we had intentions on. The only protection this really served is the naked leveler doing the bare minimum for XP and meager coins, looking to be left alone. Gatherers still can get killed with no added protections.
EDIT:
Second Part of Soft Flag
you are also soft flagged if you are within level range of players.
The +/- varies depending on your level vs them. That number is decided by Devs.
Purpose of this is to not try to prevent random PVP for no reasons either.
a level 10 player not soft flag can still be flagged for pvp by another level 8-12 player without any penalty.
The higher level you are, the higher discrepancies the level player can attack you w/o much punishment.
The Intention of Soft/Hard Flag isn't to prevent General PvP. If you are all within level range, you are all fighting for resource locations, and that should actively be on. Everything is Nuance.
2) This isnt 100% fleshed out, as I expect people to find flaws, let's improve on it.
3) I am not anti pvp. In fact once you understand the concept, I am only trying to protect 1 type of player, the "leveling" players.
4) This doesnt change any core mechanics or pillars to AoC PVP system or corruption system at all. It works alongside with it.
What is a Soft Flag?
A Soft Flag is a mechanics that informs you, you have opted into world pvp.
How does one become soft flagged?
90% of the items in Ashes of Creation should automatically Soft Flag you.
This includes all crafting mats, all resources gathered. If it has a purpose to Siege, Castle/Guild/Faction/Node Wars/Crafting - it will soft flag you.
What are those 10% items that dont? How do I prevent myself from Soft Flagging?
GREY TRASH ITEMS and Quest Items only.
Grey items are useless junks that it's only purpose is to sell to a NPC for meager coins only. NOTHING ELSE.
Thus - a soft flag system allows the PVE player to LEVEL UP and gain a little bit of coin safely by avoiding being soft flagged. If he/she wishes to carry other loot, they can, it's gonna be at the cost of risk/reward. So for all the levelers, go ahead and quest and make meager coins. your entire purpose and arguement is to level up only. You are getting XP and some coins.
THIS DOES NOT PROTECT GATHERERS.
Purpose of Soft Flag?
What purpose do you have killing a naked level 10 who is carrying nothing? None * (* exception - see Camp Flag below)
How does it work?
When a player attempts to attack another player - you'll get a notification that this player isn't soft flagged. It will then prompt you another question - Do you wish to proceed and Hard Flag yourself?
What is a Hard Flag?
A hard flag is a mechanic that informs the aggressive player, that you are putting yourself at risk of corruption if the defender chooses not to fight back. That's it.
What is the purpose of a Hard Flag?
While griefing players in general sucks for reason - sometimes there are reasons. Clearing an area for your guildies that you wish to power level may be one. (*see camp flag). But if there is no reason at all, other than senseless killing - you acknowledge the risk for your actions and the penalty is doubled via corruption system.
Regardless Hard flag works in unison with Corruption.
Corruption system - NOTHING CHANGES in principle. But the rate of corruption is increased in Hard Flag.
Example:
you are a level 60 player, you see a level 10 naked chopping trees.
That level 10 is soft flagged to you, you can proceed to kill him for those resources.
What is the current system for this scenario? That depends if he/she fought back and gave you corruption. Regardless you were gonna do it with or without the soft flag in place. Nothing changes for you and the victim.
But now, the level 10 naked HAD NO resources, thus not soft flagged.
What reason do you have, to kill him/her? you have none. So you shouldn't be allowed to kill him/her for the sheer
fuck of it. BUT IF YOU MUST, you can 'HARD FLAG' yourself. and still attack, just this time - you acknowledge the corruption penalty is increased. Probably double the amount. Merely to discourage pointless killing.
NUANCE
What if I want to clear a player/group from an area?
Hopefully they are soft flagged, so nothing really changes in terms of potential corruption.
however if they arent, they are killing orcs from a know high XP Camp spots and not soft flagging themselves, one can argue - this is a resource I consider valuable to kill over for.
This part, I am uncertain how to approach things. As I do not want to deter and create anti PvP. This is a valid aspect of the game. Wether they are 5, 10, 30, 50 level difference - you may be doing it for guildies, for alts, for power leveling services - nothing wrong with that. A Soft/Hard Flag may not do much. Or May do TOO MUCH.
This aspect is tricky to navigate, as it's a fine line into Anti PvP vs Anti-Griefing and what constitute Griefing in the eyes of AoC Devs. How do you promote PvP, since the concept of this flag is about fighting over resources. But XP Camps are also resources - maybe not to YOU the high level player, but for your guildies, low level friends that you want to secure. While it sucks - how do ensure the high lvl player isnt being punished within gameplay / tos
One idea - uncertain on how it can be abused - is perhaps - there should be something in the Orc Camp that allows you to Click on and "CAMP FLAG" yourself. This Indicate to the corruption system, that, in the event you kill someone and get corrupted, you are not dealt with double the penalty points. I think the potential corruptions you would normally get should be "PENDING" - as long as you remain in that area for X amount of time - which indicates you fought and killed someone for that location was a VALID REASON to not be penalized.
Example for clarification.
A Group of 5 level 12 players fighting Orcs. They haven't looted anything that would Soft flag them to you.
YOU, the level 60 player want that orc camp for your 3 level 10 friends. You have few options:
Option 1 - Have your 3 friends fight for the camp, you watch. (BOOOOO)
Option 2 - Tough Luck, you cant do anything (BOOOOOO)(This must be stated by AoC ToS and camp rules and/or harassment/bullying rules. If nothing is stated, it's open season for pvp imho)
Option 3 - Hired Gun - Bring someone bigger to push them out.
So you have opted for option 3.
You approach the camp, you talk to them, they refuse. Open the Map or click on the ORC NPC Menu when it spawns - this should give you the ability to "CAMP FLAG".
Camp Flag means - as long as you stayed in this area for X amount of time (let's say 30 minutes min) any corrupted actions that you may have done is nulled or reduce.
So, now as the level 60, you ended up having to "Hard Flag' yourself for combat and killed all 5 of them. They never fought back. They attempt to give you corruption points. Those points are on Hold. If you leave the area, you are considered a griefer by the hard flag system and gain a SHIT TON OF CORRUPTION.
When you leave the area, you are given a 2-3 min warning to return to the area or face the corruption penalty.
If you stayed within the allotted time - the system will recognize that you fought over a valuable area. The only punishment you will get is the same basic corruption points you would have gotten anyways with the current system. MAYBE LESS OR NONE AT ALL.
STILL - while in Camp Flag, you also Flag yourself to Bounty Hunters for PvP. It is up to them to decide if they want to answer the call on a potential corrupted player. Maybe you are a different color to Bounty Hunter in Camp Flag mode, to indicate stuff, but it promotes more PVP which imho is a good thing. Checks and Balances.
I am sure there might be other scenario that may conflict with this, or other things that this doesn't resolve. I am open to hearing it and attempting to find a solution. I do believe this is a very FAIR take on Open PVP that doesn't promote anti-pvp or prevent pretty much anything we had intentions on. The only protection this really served is the naked leveler doing the bare minimum for XP and meager coins, looking to be left alone. Gatherers still can get killed with no added protections.
EDIT:
Second Part of Soft Flag
you are also soft flagged if you are within level range of players.
The +/- varies depending on your level vs them. That number is decided by Devs.
Purpose of this is to not try to prevent random PVP for no reasons either.
a level 10 player not soft flag can still be flagged for pvp by another level 8-12 player without any penalty.
The higher level you are, the higher discrepancies the level player can attack you w/o much punishment.
The Intention of Soft/Hard Flag isn't to prevent General PvP. If you are all within level range, you are all fighting for resource locations, and that should actively be on. Everything is Nuance.
{UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
0
Comments
So in theory pretty much any loot that you could get from a mob would soft flag you immediately.
And as for the camp flag mechanic, I feel like it'd be mainly abused in cases where it's beneficial to have a lower lvl character. That char will just have a high lvl protector who'll PK everyone around (who'd probably be low lvl) w/o getting the corruption, because the protector would've stayed in the area either way. And while that is a somewhat valid gameplay situation, I can definitely see how lowbies would complain about getting murderized w/o their killer getting any penalties.
I think that issue could be resolved if BHs would just see camp flagged PKers for what they are and could still hunt them.
But I feel like this whole suggestion would overcomplicate an already complex (for quite a lot of people) system. People can't even properly understand how the current system works. I can't even imagine the confusion when they realize there's a whole other lvl on top of that.
1) drops - yeah, almost all items will soft flag you. With that said - then they should make simple grey trash items for the basic PvE player who simply wants to level and get a little bit of coin, be able to do so. Give them that small carrot. Everything else stays on the floor for someone who is willing to take that risk and walks away with it.
2) camp flag pvp/pk protection. Isnt the current arguement ppl have is - if you got a PKer, call a friend or hire a bodyguard? This is literally it - someone hired a bodyguard to protect being taken out, or hired someone to remove someone out then protect them. This encourages the victims to now call other high lvl players to take on that group/guild. Good Conflict. Good PvP
Added Bonus - BH are incentives too.
Also, this would still just allow players to stay in one lucrative low lvl location and genocide as many people as they can. And the corruption system is currently there to prevent this exact situation. Camp Flag would kinda circumvent that.
The tiny number of players who’re willing to drop stuff they’ve earned on the floor to completely eliminate the chance of being PKed are going to have a bad experience anyway, because they’re throwing away some of their loot with almost every mob kill in order to not be attacked. Not a great feeling.
I guess this comes down to how you view Open World PvP.
I do not want to lessen the world pvp. I do not want to see PVP be be turned on/off at will.
I do not want to see a pve server (makes no sense with the mechanics of the game to begin with)
everyone that has been vocal against world pvp - boils down to griefer, high lvl gankers and/or Gatherers being targetted.
This is the best solution atm I can come up with that only helps the player looking to level up only.
Instead of advocating a toggable PVP - most of the mechanics in AoC are opt in PvP.
Caravan, Castle, Node, Seige + Open Sea PvP and whatnot.
This is merely an olive branch to the PvE players who wants to play AoC.
Eventually they will be brave enough to soft flag themselves. Maybe level 1-30 they will avoid it, but 30+ they feel comfortable to do it.
Maybe, 3 hours in a camp, grinding XP, they avoid soft flag, but now they are done, taking the last 10-15 of camp loot, to attempt to run to town to sell. Viable gameplay.
I Dont see why adding "trash loot" is a bad thing for the PVE player. For anyone else, just ignore it, dont loot it, whatever. Makes no real impact on us - it's meaningful for the carebears. Let them have this small little thing.
As it is - these PVE players don't even want to play a game with open PVP. This may allow them to stay. Until they feel confident or until they finally hit 60 or have a group to soft flag them. But the solo pve player - nothing prevents u from playing, avoiding these items vs - not even bothering to play the game, because "Open World PVP ruined it for me"
I think they are gonna "feel bad" anyways and be unhappy. Atleast, this is an attempt to find a medium.
But like I said, your suggestion could work in the context of quest-based leveling. I just don't believe that many people would be happy with completely disregarding their loot.
I guess we need to define area / location.
Camp Flag should put you in a small area. An Encampment, a Camp, a location that make sense. Each area will be different size. If it's large cave with 5 known camps, than each one may have its own little "zone" of space.
Camp Flag shouldnt cover an entire cave, an entire forrest.
Camp Flag should only cover static locations, in a small define space. So you cant be Jason from Friday the 13th and Murder Hobo anyone near the vicinity. They gotta be within Tagging range of the mob your camping. If they are in tagging range, they are in camp flag range pvp.
So you want to protect a known forrest filled with wolves. No Camp Flag allowed. Only way to secure location or wolves is to out tag it. Since they roam around. If they are sitting in a orc tent that spawns 6 orcs - contestable.
And if leashes allow you to bring mobs from other spots to your own - you gonna have farming parties that do exactly that, so the protector will be able to kill anyone who even dares approach that spot in hopes of killing the pulled mobs.
i really keep thinking you just wanna know who is carrying something valuable or not to know who u gonna attack
(the answer is yes)
Now - all this does is filter out the 100% innocent player who has no resources/mats/etc. I was still gonna attack those who are soft flag. I just prevented killing a inno for no reason and wasting each other times. I will still suffer any corruption system by attacking the other players.
You wont know who is soft flagged, there will be no visual que. You wont know how much they got on them, if its valuable or not. So it still boils down to player intention in the end. If u had no plans to attack someone, you would have never known if he/she had stuff. If you were planning to kill ppl for stuff - it wouldnt have changed anything other than the fact, the PVE Quester isnt carrying anything that allowed him to be soft flagged is all. that is it. nothing complicated. nothing deep. nothing nefarious
True in terms of leash.
But say it was a cave with 5 camp spots. All you can do is claim 1 area and your kinda stuck in that space. You can attempt to pull from other camps into your camp and bait them to pvp in there. They will know that and can reverse and try to bait you out of it. That becomes a game of itself and still creating good pvp conflict at this point. They can attempt to tag ur npc and pull it out of ur camp flag zone too.
Also because at that point - you got bullied out by a high level player. Let the rest of the cave groups know the situation, now ask a guildie, friend or world/node chat for assistance. Someone may want to instigate that fight now with the bully. PKers who are bored may want to fight him too. This is the part where you can fight back, should fight back, you know you got X time to land that corruption on him. Continue to contest that spot.
You can look at the bigger objective - he came in for his lowbies friends. Attempt to snipe one of the lowbies, zerg rush one of them before you die by the high level. At some point - it's ruining one of their experiences and XP rate, he/she may ragequit and leave. Then you focus on the next lowbie while trading death. Because both of you are near each other level - there is no punishments between ya 2.
Currently - players have no protection anyways to deal with a bully taking over a spot. Only option is to call for backup. That is still true with this, but we have now defined a space and a goal. It's like a King of the Hill type of pvp aspect. He/She is limited how far he can roam and defend, but not limited or punished if you flagged into him and decides to run away. (To prevent Long distance sniping, widdling down someone hp cause they cant leave a circle is dumb idea too).
sorry just woke up and brain dumping everything - so I might not make sense. Literally typing what I am thinking right now.
Say the Camp Flag - this particular camp gave you a Radius of 25m that you are camp flagged into now.
It is a visible "bubble". So now you know his distance. You can attempt to walk up to the line, not cross it - he/she wont risk attacking you if your outside, if not - that will trigger corruption as is by normal standard.
He will need you to enter that bubble. So, just wait - wait for their lowbies to pull npc then focus the lowbies b4 dying to the highbies.
Even if your at 26m, the second you attack anyone inside that bubble - you give the lowbies and the protector the right to attack you. For the lowbies - maybe they can chase you infinite. For the protector, I guess his field is double, increasing to 50m but only to you, so anyone else who was passing by aren't flagged to the protector when he enters the 50m bubble. This bubble is short lived, on a timer, allowing a chase then another time kicks in, telling you to go back or that pending points goes through.
So now, it's just PVP - contesting over an area - and a unique gameplay starts, with its own tactic and approach how to either beat him up, or at worse, bait him out to grief for corruption points. Or give up and let him/her own that camp - they can't extend themselves to cover other camp. Once camp flagged, you can't camp flag another spot until that timer is done. So If your concern is he/she trying to take over an entire cave - that would be impossible to do.
If your intention is to control the entire cave - you can still do that, just not with the camp flag system. It would be the exact same way you would have done it, without this system ever created. Just start attacking, if it triggers a corruption system, it is what it is.
All while the current system just protects them outright. There's a high lvl player in your low lvl location? He can't do shit to you or he'll get insane amount of corruption. That's it. That's the system. There's no way for him to genocide players at your lvl (well, obviously, unless you flag back up) and there's no way for him to bait you for an attack (as long as forced aoe toggle is off by default).
He could potentially start killing all the mobs around the location, but that's the kind of griefing that should be solved through social means.
Regardless - This doesnt really change what you just stated. Its just 1 extra layer on top of that.
"There's a high lvl player in your low lvl location? He can't do shit to you or he'll get insane amount of corruption."
- correct. Only he wont be able to attack outright unless that player is soft flag. If he does - shit ton of corruption anyways.
Only difference is - the low level guy without a soft flag on - then the PK'er has to acknowledge and Hard Flag himself.. guess what - DOUBLE Corruption. Everything else you stated still holds true. It gives more discouragement for PKers avoiding someone who isnt even soft flag.. chances of not being soft flag will be small, since almost every loot will flag you up anyways.
This gives the quester, a very small narrow path of playing and not getting killed (ideally).
Concept changed when someone pointed out - how about if I want to PK an individual or group from an area that I want - that is where things got tricky - I can only think of a camp flag, if the PKer is trying to be greedy and control a larger area - then it's the old fashion way - genocide into the lowbies and suffer the consequence per usual. Better hope they are atleast soft flag, if not, feel free to hard flag and kill away anyways - it seems that was the intention of that player's goal anyways.
that is exactly my point. this system is pointless. all it does is put a target on peoples back, because now you know who has valuables on them. thats why i kept saying you want to know who has valuables so you can attack them, and not someone else instead. this isnt to protect "innocent" players. the player with valuables is innocent as well. this is so you go out hunting and farming players.
also, no player is innocent