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Comments
The variety and wider range of materials should rather come from...
1.the cooperation of different gathering and crafting professions:
-Blacksmith not only needs metal but also wood and maybe even mordant (hope this is the correct word) from the alchemist for some recipes.
-Maybe the breeder can breed Scorpions that give more or deadlier poison than others and the alchemist needs this for his recipes.
-The Fisherman can not only provide Fish for Cooking but also Oil for processing wood.
-The cook can provide special food for taming especially picky types of animals.
-etc.
2. the "cooperation" of crafting with other features of the game
-special materials obtainable via pvp / owning castles or smth like that
-special materials obtainable from monsters / bosses
-special materials found in hidden places (=obtainable via exploration)
View on Materials:
Looking through my MMO history some games don't require active materials to farm. Some of them do. For me, I have always found that rare items should not be common place everywhere you go. I believe that Ashes of Creation should leave certain materials whether they drop from a mob or are farmed in the world unique to a region, mob, or area of some kind. This is so life skillers and those who will be crafting don't remain in the same circle of repetition grinding the same areas always.
They should want to gather a team around them to help them explore and defend them if they're not combat savvy. Just so they can go farm a rare or unique material used to craft exotic foods, outstanding weapons that players don't normally see, Potions, Elixirs, Items and so much more that. We should have items be unique to seasons, areas, and mobs the higher their rarity. But, when they are farmed they should have a decent farm rate. So that when they return home their supply will last them for a good amount of time before they go back.
However, there should still be certain items that are common through out Terra. For crafters the main issue will be storage. We want to farm, gather, fish, collect, craft etc. but we will need access to plenty of space to store items for crafting.
Now this being said. My experience in BDO has become toxic at times. Why? Because when there is only one place to grind for an item that is end game OP tier. PvP players tend to want to keep those spots to themselves and don't share. So, I believe that at the end of the day materials should be spread out among the region's yet unique to certain circumstances. Like seasons, time of day, mobs, regions etc.
I want a good amount of the materials I farm but, not so much of a trash item that's not worth anything that barely has a crafting purpose. I want a good amount of the rare stuff when I put in the work. But, not so much trash items from hours of collecting that are useless. If I farm/collect anything I want it to be useful in some important way. So that way the market doesn't get flooded with useless junk all the time. And so that I can craft using everything I go for.
Love yall thanks Intrepid!
I think that there should be a balance, something should take a realistic amount of crafting resources that are common and small additions of rare materials to influence the craft.
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I'm someone who loves gathering as I play so that whenever I do decide to craft, I'm already ahead of the game. I'll be glad that I took the time to gather as I played.
As a primary crafter in a crafting clan, I would say it depends on the type of crafting and the rarity of the item being crafted. I think that low rarity items (Armor, Weapons, and Equipment) should require less items and lower end items to create. When it comes to Consumable items (Potions, Food, Runes) it would depend on the level of the item. ie +100 health potion compared to a +500 health potion should require more items or more of each item.
As I plan to play a Armorsmith, I would hope that lower end common items would require 2-3 types items to create but lower end rare would require 4-5 types items in order to give it that rare rating. So 2-3 Common, 4-5 Uncommon, 5-6 Rare, and a Huge jump of 9-10 for Legendary. This could be done by making crafting items. ie Frist you make Armor plates, Armor links, Padding, liners and then combine those to create the full Armor piece.
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I always say I am not going to horde it all but lets be honest I always do!
Too few or sparse gatherables is boring.
I would rather see a fewer rare materials that you need more and more, to make better stuff. As opposed to 1 unique material per rare item.
I think Guild Wars 2 had a very intuitive material system. Similar materials for each "tier" of crafting, each corresponding to a stat. It makes it easy to identify what's important to you.
A balance should be the goal.
Too many low quality resources to make unusable or weak weapons and armor is bad. More higher quality and rare resources to create more high end and top notch gear and resources.
No one will craft low quality rags for clothes over and over again and then sell them to make money. Most people would craft low quality rags to get their crafting level up and then breakdown the item down because there is no need to sell a crappy item.
Resources should have a purpose.
Examples of resources:
It should be simple yet once you gather a resource you can have several drop options.
1. Herbs = cinnamon, Dill, Garlic, Mint, Hutmeg, Parsley, Sage, Saffron, Basil
2. Ores = Iron, Steel, Gold, Crystal, Silver | Rare Ores = Corrupted Crystal, Meteor Rock, Kryptonite, SunStone
3. Trees = Pine wood, | Rare Woods = Corrupted Tree,
4. Fishing = Salmon, Tuna, Swordfish | Rare Fish = Shark, Tiger Shark, Treasure Chest loots
5. Gems and Jewels = Ruby, Saphire, Amber, Topaz
6. Skinning & Tracking = Pork, Venison, Bear Flank, Turkey, Dragon chunk,
When you Track, Kill, and skin a Dragon you should get a chance at several types of drops
Skin = Scales, Dragon Hide, Dragon's Fang, Dragon Heart, Rare weapons, Rare Armor, Dragon Skull
member of Gray Sentinels
A proper variety of raw mats is desired. Those mats can be used for compirise, processed mats.
An iron ore (raw) can be turned to steel (processed) once mixed with other raw mats.
The higher the items, the more steels you need (in addition to the rest of the recipe).
I think that processed mats should feel way more variable than raw mats.
There is no reason for multiple variations of iron ore (raw material) like:
Polished iron ore
Valuable iron ore
Purple iron ore
Magic iron ore
Toxic iron ore
Sharp iron ore
Heavy iron ore
There is no need for many simple processed mats. The vast majority should be a mix of raw and what I mean by that is to avoid the eso model of "rubite ore turns to rubite ingot".
There is no need for 50 different or types of rocks or timbers etc etc.
We dont need to simulate the periodic table.
Items that add traits to gear is a different story. But no need for excess there too.
A wide variety that can be used for specific things.
A few examples:
1) An example of how a small variety of materials used for everything, and it going badly is Eve Online. It has a core set of about 8 materials that go into everything. There are other things used in building, but for the most part these 8 are common to everything. As a result the markets became easy to manipulate for profit, this causes buy and sell margins to become so tight that it's actually difficult, sometimes impossible, to find anything to build at a profit. You just sell the materials since actually building is a waste of time and money.
Also, anything at all that effects these 8 materials effects the pricing of almost every single item in the game. This allows larger player organization to band together to control the entire economy (which they do).
2) An example of how a large variety of materials used for everything, and it going well is Eve Online. The PI (Planetary Interaction) portion of the game has about 10 basic materials, however the distribution of the materials across the PI manufacturing landscape is spread out. You are not using the exact same materials to construct everything. So while the the pricing of one material can influence several other items, no one material (or group of materials) can be used to influence the entire landscape. It is always easy to find something profitable to build. You can simply change up what you are harvesting/building as the market waxes and wanes. As a result, pricing goes up and down over time creating a healthy economy.
3) An example of many different types of the same material being used for everything, and it going well is Star Wars Galaxies. As a simplistic example, if you needed Iron to produce something, you could find a wide variety of different versions of Iron spread out all over the galaxy. The quality of these versions of Iron changed over time and changed locations over time. While some products required certain material values to be high for experimentation, others did not need any value to make. As a result you could always find the type of materials you needed and the price was always controlled due to the large variety. Also, cheaper, more common, crafted items never became overpriced since there was always a ready supply of the lower quality materials they needed.
4) Having different varieties of the same material can create gold rushes in a variety of locations across the map as time goes on. If the type of, lets say Iron, in one part of the world because too expensive it will incentivize people to go after the type of Iron on a different part of the world. Great way to get people to constantly travel to new areas and interact with the entire game.
TLDR: I think having a wide variety of materials used to create specific things makes for a very healthy economy.
L2 did a great job and I wouldnt mind seeing the same thing in AoC.
But compared to other mmos L2 had "less". And to me that's great. Not sure how you fitted "more" in your L2 post.
If recipes are locked in terms of materials, and we get a less than stellar inventory system, then keep it somewhat balanced. I don't want to end up with only 10 materials per profession or anything like that, but 50 might be overkill too.
Less comes in handy for basics. And in general.
But it would also be very boring.
So having rare materials for very special types of gear. Would be awesome.
gathering 40 different items for one peice of gear. Would be... annoying AF.
So more. But also... less. 😉
Another thing to contemplate is the possibility for region-specific resources. It could potentially be terrible gameplay to have a region-specific resources in the case of there being fewer resources with more uses. A lot would hinge on those resources, and it would work fine if all those nodes want to collaborate. However, node conflict might be conducive to sharp increases in the value of certain resources. If players from a region of nodes are antagonistic and constantly raiding each others caravans, then less of that region specific resource is going to get out to the rest of the regions making it super expensive because of the demand generated by its multiple uses. There would certainly create some really interesting geo-politics as certain guilds might want to ally and create a monopoly on a certain resource, but I think it might be too much power and devolve into spiteful or self-interested gameplay as players gatekeep too much of the game from each other.
On the other hand, I think if there were more resources and specific uses, having region-specific resources would be safer to implement. It would still have the benefit of having a resource create region identity, exportation, and motivation to invade or attack caravans. However, the specific uses means it would be easier to balance the few crafted items. For example, a region that has volcanic mountains might uniquely have the resource of obsidian. That obsidian might be valuable for making some jewelry, but if there are only a few pieces of jewelry it can make, players can live without having it. But if its powerful, they will still feel motivated to try and obtain it. If each region had a group of unique resources with a few unique end-uses, then you still get the flavour of having region-specific resources in the game without the punishing ramifications of players getting a lot of leverage with monopolising it. Monopolies probably would still happen, but they would gatekeep far less of the game.
What is important for me is that resources are not out level. Clearly there should be resources only in places where you can only get with high level and a good group, but at the same time simple wood should not be replaced x times during the level phase.
An example. I want to craft the super duper bow. Then I have to go to dungeon 1 to get the string for the bow from the end boss. But at the same time the wood from a normal tree should be enough.
I always find that a pity in games like WoW or Lord of the Rings Online. You really only need the initial resources to level up. With each addon, only the most current resource tier decides afterwards.
Quite an abstract question to answer when you don't know certain key pieces of information regarding the intended design.
But in general, both are necessary,
a "wide variety of materials that can be used for specific things"(mainly processed materials)
to give depth and variety to the systems the materials plays a role in and their economy,
and "materials that can be used for a wide variety of things"(mainly raw materials)
that branches out as a path to more complex materials.
Lets use something general like logs from whatever tree for example,
logs can be processed into things like Lumber, Charcoal and Resins.
Lumber can be used in a extreme multitude of things,
Charcoal can be used in cooking(as fuel and as ingredient), smelting(as fuel and as coal substitute for steel) and even medicine(activated charcoal)[could add its function in the production of gunpowder but not a thing in ashes],
Resins can be used in the production of Varnish, Adhesives, Solvents, Salves,Turpentine and even Rubber.
Aren't we all sinners?
I guess in essence for regular common stuff not crowding players with too many resources is better, but still having the uncommon and rare ingredients important for crafting cooler(better? at least alternative to the baseline) stuff is still important for a lot of people.
I would expect the more common materials to be more generic and used across many recipes and crafts. As I advance in my crafting profession and become able to craft more specialized and unique items I would expect to require rarer and more specific materials.
Both can be overdone. Using New World as an example, a game in which I liked the gathering and crafting, I think the generic base materials are often annoying: you need pretty much all of them always and it becomes a pain to manage storage and inventory.
I very much like the idea of interchangeable materials though, like recipes that require a specific tier of any meat. It does allow you to have more generic common recipes, and maybe some more advanced recipes could require a specific meat material as you specialize in the profession.
I also think the idea of having the materials upgrade into the next tier materials (in New World or Albion Online) is pretty good. It allows lower-tier materials to have value and stay relevant even into the end game.
Also the production recipes should be quite different from each-other. Even when tier is changed I would like the recipe workflow pattern to change too: that production tree with input and output materials should look different when tier changes, to be more complex with more nodes and loops for higher tier materials. To not be able to say: "for high tier you replace that with that and all is the same".
Intuition
Create the production in a way which cannot be described in a wiki in a picture and mechanically followed. That means intuition should play a role and different people should have different preference or opinion about how is better to produce the final target materials. One way to achieve this is by adding parameters which change over time in a non-linear way, like temperature, ageing, fermentation or some slow chemical reactions which change concentration... These could be communicated in a less exact way by tool-tips and for a higher accuracy, the artisan should check color or sound, dynamical patterns, maybe using some artisan specific tools which can analyze material samples.
Multiple recipes
Make it so that achieving final main materials to be possible by using multiple recipes which have different side products. The player will have to make a trade-off between final quality and how he can sell or use the output materials. It could be that a player would choose certain recipes because it has customers for the byproducts, rather than choose the recipes with byproducts which need transporting to a more distant place where somebody needs it, even if the main intended output material would have a higher quality. Or could nevertheless do that and store the byproducts, hoping for a change in future, triggered by seasons or resource distribution on the map or political shifts between nodes.
Production tools in a virtual space
I would like these production environments to have to be managed:
1) to have more internal states which have to be maintained and even upgraded or downgraded
2) to manage the space where you can install your workbenches, egg incubator, refrigerator, alchemist setup etc.
Those internal states would be some samples which participate in the production: bacteria for fermentation, eggs for husbandry, hot lava container or some other magical substances or entities which decay if they do not stay within a certain temperature range or humidity or whatever.
When these modules containing the samples are installed, they should require a certain startup (activation) space. After that the space can be repurposed.
This space would be an overall space resource of the entire production environment (just like the player inventory which gains more slots if you equip a backpack or gear with many pockets).
In the case of the work area, it could be shelves or sockets or something else.
3) space could be provided by the production units too, making them valuable also for this attribute.
4) some artisans could cast spells or do something which make the room look temporarily larger, for a few minutes. Some artisans could specialize in being able to manipulate space and maybe even help other artisans with it
These would add challenge and creativity while trying to upgrade or optimize production capabilities.
For example in the limited available space, to replace modules (workbenches etc) , the artisan should be creative and temporarily switch to modules which provide additional free space to be able to add some intermediate equipment which generates more additional space and which will be removed again once the target module is changed and activated.
See this process as when operating a patient and you install devices around him and you feed it with medicine to make it tolerant to changes and resistant to infections so you can leave some sensors or foreign parts inside which might be removed later again.
1. Size of the world and politics, because the world is very big, and will most likely keep getting bigger, the ideal would be having a large variety of regional materials, but not so large that it causes some kind of bloat let's say 1-2 basic wood and rock per biome, not so much that it causes bloat, but enough to encourage commerce across the world map.
2. Gear, as we progress gear will get stronger, so you should need more experienced artisans of the 3 trees to get it done, if you keep adding new materials for every tier of gear, material bloat will be unavoidable, so for this I think the solution would be, less variety on materials that are spread all over the world, but harder to find, let's say some of them would be very rare and others would straight up require the use of survey, at this point, processors should be introduced to alloys, composite chemicals and new treatment processes that use basic and advanced materials, to create new materials for the crafters.
3. Endgame, here should come the complexity and collaboration, for example rare materials should be abundant but come from dangerous places like dungeons, deep caves and bosses, and most of them should require a master gatherer to be obtained, again processors would have access to new alloys, composite chemicals and treatment processes, that can only be performed by master processors, and still use some basic and mid-tier gatherables, and crafters could have access to new form of item creation that allows them to personalize items, like using the extra material "treated claw of the cyclops" while creating a high level hammer to give it a 5 strength, or "expertly cut volcanic ruby" to give it additional fire damage, this way you add a greater variety of materials that give crafters, processors and gatherers more gameplay but are completely optional, as well as creating a market for personal requests for gatherers, processors and crafters.
So in short, in early and mid-game you should have a controlled variety that is enough to promote commerce and exploration and keep it interesting for all the artisans, at end game you should up the difficulty for creating and obtaining materials for master gatherers, processors and crafters, and add a big variety of optional materials that up the gameplay for the 3 trees, all of that while keeping the basic materials relevant for the whole process thanks to the alloys, composite chemicals and treatment processes.
I'm framing this from a prospecting perspective, but it can really apply to anything. Different woods holding different affinities (a la wands in Harry Potter) I know cooks will appreciate different spices enhancing their meals in different ways. Alchemy and Herbalism go hand in hand and I feel by rights it should be a somewhat complex set of ingredients going into potions to get it just right.
Couldn't agree with all of this more! To add, having lower materials continue to be used in higher crafted items acts as a resource sink which is always needed for all parts of a healthy mmo's economy.
Then as you go up in rarity you have choice or two options to potentially build in my mind. First, you can have signature crafted items in higher tiers that require resources from specific biomes or that based on the custom resource provides a specific bonus effect. Second, using higher rarity could impact the range and likelihood for the quality of the item crafted. Also, both of these could be used simultaneously.
Some materials come in a large variety, let say wood. Others not, such as phoenix feathers. For some items the exact material isn't that important, let say the wood for a wooden spoon; for some others, like a bow, the type of wood does make a difference. Phoenix feathers can be use for all the recipes requiring feathers (fletching, hat ornamentation, duster, ...) even though their exotic properties are lost, but are essential when crafting fire arrows.