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Itemization, watch this video devs please.
VekoKrava
Member
This might be stupid for some, but it made some items so memorable even today after people tried many MMOs they remember some of these items and memories they had.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMUz6uStM_8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMUz6uStM_8 4
Comments
Instantly closed the vid.
We all think that about games we enjoy/enjoyed.
Sometimes other people have played better designs and don't agree because they have things to compare to.
Sometimes you have to learn from the people who come from other games, the strengths and weaknesses of those games. It is only through this that the perfect MMO can one day be made, forged from the experiences and genre-love we all share.
Join us. Cast off your chains and be free in the new era. Rise from the Ashes of Creation to take the Throne, and Liberty will usher in a new ArcheAge.
I think Bethesda’s marketing department could use you, @Azherae. 🤗
I swear u work for blizzard and ur just trying to poach players
I am honest with you guys, I did not try many MMOs, but those that I tried sucked very hard from all perspectives that is: economy, itemization and not so unique classes. Gw2 has some great buff variations, but of all buffs I think quickness is the most important if not only important buff because it adds so much to damage, so much that you only need quickness buff heroes as supports. WoW had different approach, not always you would want a shadow priest, but you would want one per group where healers are for mana regen, or you would want paladin for stats 10% buff...etc... These are all old-school ideas, and MMOs were different back then, but what MMOs did wrong is that they followed WoWs footstep to make game more casual-friendly, open world was not like EQ99 with hard mobs, but more casual. They did all this, but they didn't make simple small steps of making game like WoW, some would argue that then game would not be the same, I agree to some point, but if you make itemization boring, how will that game be unique. Or if you don't make professions matter while leveling, wheres that RPG vibe to that game then, it does not exist...
I liked how dungeon quests were always in some isolated areas in city, if you played game for 15 years straight you might have something that you did not finish. For me that means masterpiece of a game, skyrim is similar when it comes to quests, as if they designed game that does not have this module - finish this, then finish that, it was old-fashioned and it gives so much more then if it was designed like a business model, at least for me..
Based on what Azherae said a few posts above, when you take in how much general dislike there is towards WoW as a whole, you should come to the understanding that it really wasnt a good game.
Thing is, that doesnt mean you aren't allowed to like it - you absolutely are allowed. All it means is that you should know that you like it in spite of its many failings and issues - you shouldnt just be blind to them.
An example of this would be McDonalds. I quite like a quarter pounder from there, and have one every few months or so (about as often as I am able to eat fast food, really). I know they aren't overly good burgers, I know I could make a better burger myself. However, I still unapologetically enjoy a quarter pounder when I am in a position to have one. Others will no doubt say they are trash, and honestly I agree with them - but I still like them.
You are absolutely allowed to enjoy WoW. I dont think anyone is actually saying you shouldnt like it. Just that you need to be as aware of what other games did better.
The atitude of people refusing to even consider the point because of wow-phobia is just aberrant.
Items should be unique and interesting and this should be the case with as many items as possible, including leveling items.
It's an rpg.
I'd rather have weak pots that you can get pretty quickly and/or stronger pots that just require you to kill a difficult mob/boss. So instead of grinding several hours I'd just need to prove that I have enough skill to receive the reward. But even then, imo those strong pots should be craftable so that I could just go and buy them from someone or my guildmates would be working on crafting them instead of killing mobs and we'd just trade gear for pots.
The main argument against your suggestion of pots, from what I've seen, has been "I don't want to grind more than the content that I grinded for". And there are ways to achieve that while also keeping the value of pots or buffs or whatever.
Because it's WoW, even tough Itemization brings an interesting uniqueness, it also demands extensive grinds for gear or gold so you can get that set you are looking for and it could simply turn out to be crap or you can't adapt to that horrendous playstyle... which is fine, but it's just sad when it doesn't work out
But if it works out for you, then it means someone else is getting pooped on and the victim won't even understand what happened for months
This also brings an very high amount of items in the containers, I don't know yet how good is the inventory/containers system in AoC
I'm not against Itemization even tough I said all those things, it's just that you bring WoW stuff non stop that is the game which literally killed the MMO RPG genre by turnning grind into today's standard... it is WoW that fermented the carebeareness in our planet
What you should have done when you opened the topic, instead of bringing more WoW poop, is checking out which are AoC stats and try to figure out Itemization for AoC... than people would be interested in such conversation... but you already opened the thread the wrong way
Does Itemization rewards creativity?
Yes
Could Itemization work for AoC?
Maybe yes
Should AoC have a good amount of Itemization Aoc?
Yes
Should we look at WoW as reference?
Definitely not
Should AoC look for a Itemization that is suited for AoC?
Definitey yes
....
Also EQ99 was way more hard core then vanilla wow, what wow did is that it set up a new standard for mmk games which are way more convenient. Even vanilla was soft compsred to EQ99....
I fully watched the video you posted and I even read 2 articles about Itemization and I pulled my memories about it when I played PvP in Vanilla WoW
If you read my post you would see I am in favor of Itemization
I'm just against using WoW as a reference, I think it suits AoC finding it's own path in this
And if you don't have to scroll the window for reading a post, then the post is not long
The video made a good point about the uncertainty of how to gear. It is a testament to how in depth the design of the game was and the insane amount of possibilities. It would benefit AoC if they were that in depth in their own design and are willing to take risks doing it. It was a lot of fun mixing and matching items to come up with something unique that worked really well that others had not seen before. It was even more fun watching people panic when their normal counters didn't work.
As for the haters rocking their colon hats, just ignore them. Most of them are fanbois that can't stomach the idea of anyone having a different opinion than them. When you mention WoW they tune out because they don't have the reference of playing back when the game was good, even though they pretend to, and all they can do is trash talk because they can't form any valid points to have a dialogue that would have a beneficial impact on the development of AoC. You can spot it right away when they automatically discount any idea or game design just because it came from WoW. Every game has its good and bad attributes. To write off all concepts from any game, especially the most played MMO of all time by a VERY large margin, proves this point. Just keep posting and avoid the short bus riders.
The video and idea you are trying to convey is relevant and useful. If you have more please share. Don't be discouraged by that type of feed back. Don't try to defend your post to the obviously biased, they aren't here to make the best game. They just like to trash on anything they don't understand. Focus on the the people willing to engage in meaningful dialogue, ignore the rest.
It was absolutely viable on some classes in vanilla WoW to hit max output using only three abilities. To many players, this is unacceptable.
Itemization in WoW was basically never really up to the player. You were kind of just handed the appropriate gear for your class as you leveled, and from dungeons and raids at the level cap. There was literally no need to ever actually consider what your class needs in terms.of gear.
The quests in WoW were ok, but by no means the most engaging of it's time - nor was it close to the game with the most quests. EQ2, released just weeks before WoW, had exponentially more quests at launch than WoW had, with the bulk of quests being of about the same quality. However, that game also had major quests throughout the game that were a step above any quests WoW has ever added to the game.
The next major thing about WoW that I specifically did not like, although it kind of encompasses much of the above, is that it treats its players as if they are stupid. Everything about the game comes across as assuming players dont know how to play an RPG at all. This makes some sense when you consider that Warcraft 3 was created the way it was (specifically its heros) in order to give Warcraft players exposure to that kind of thing, and Blizzard simply assumed WoW would be full of players from Warcraft, and had to find a way to transition them in to a new genre.
There are other things about the game I didn't like, but they all consist of comparisons to the games contemporaries, and if you had no exposure to other MMO's of the time, you are unlikely to understand.
Back in 2017 and 2018, intrepid were saying they wanted to "make MMO's great again". To many people, this didnt mean "bring things back to vanilla WoW", it meant "let's try and get rid of WoW's influence on the MMO genre".
This sounds like you are very much describing the newer, shittier version of WoW. I did notice some things you said and it really made me question in what era you started playing wow.
"Itemization in WoW was basically never really up to the player. You were kind of just handed the appropriate gear for your class as you leveled, and from dungeons and raids at the level cap. There was literally no need to ever actually consider what your class needs in terms.of gear."
You can't be serious. I remember playing a lot and I remember getting a virtual shit ton of loot that had nothing to do with my class. If you played old WoW I don't understand how you could make that statement. There were quests that constantly gave out loot where you had to pick which piece you wanted and plenty of times none of the loot was helpful to your class or you might have to know how to gear your class so you got the right item. Same with dungeons. It was up to the player to know what they needed, find out where it dropped and then farm for it until they got it. Being handed the proper gear is something that is done by the newer versions of WoW and many of its competitors. Were you a cloth wearer and assumed all cloth was meant for you?
"The next major thing about WoW that I specifically did not like, although it kind of encompasses much of the above, is that it treats its players as if they are stupid."
Well they were right on that account.
"Back in 2017 and 2018, intrepid were saying they wanted to "make MMO's great again". To many people, this didnt mean "bring things back to vanilla WoW", it meant "let's try and get rid of WoW's influence on the MMO genre"
According to whom? I don't remember ever hearing or seeing anything said by IS that they wanted to steer clear of everything WoW. So that just your personal assumption. As far as making MMOs great again it would behoove them take take notes from a game that reached the massive popularity size that WoW did. They must have been doing something right.
WoW got a lot of things right. WoW also got a lot of things wrong. As time went on they leaned much more into the wrong, just like every other game. If are going to discount WoW and everything that WoW is just because you didn't like it, then you are not interested in making the best version of AoC. You are interested in making a version that is biased and strictly how you want it without regards to what would actually be best for the game.
I'm not concerned if you believe me or not, but feel free to go back through old livestreams. Every time WoW is bought up, they kind of laugh and steer the conversation in the other direction. The only real exception to this is when they said they would love to compete with WoW in terms of raiding.
Another thing you could look at is their hiring practices. They havent announced a single ex-Wife hire, despite the fact there are more ex-WoW developers than there are for any other MMO ever made.
The other thing you could do is look at the gamea they actually state as influences on Ashes. WoW isnt among them, it isnt even in the conversation. When asked what Intrepid has taken from WoW, I do recall Steven badicalky saying "nothing". Feel free tonjust ask that same question again if you like.
As to all other points you are making, I am comparing WoW in 2004/2005 to other games around at that time.
You said that you recall being offered quest rewards in early WoW that had nothing to do with your class, and you somehow think this is proof of needing to think about gear for your class. The game always handed out appropriate gear, and there was never a need to replace it until you got to the next class specific set of gear the game was handing out to you. Everything else was able to be considered vendor fodder.
Compare this to a game like SWG (a contemporary of this period of WoW), where you are literally deciding what stats to have on your player crafted gear.
But sure, occasionally being given vendor fodder is blatant proof of good itemization on WoW, and of players needing to think what they are doing.
Quite honestly, your post here comes across as being from someone that never played any early WoW contemporaries. All of my points made were in relation to other games, not in relation to WoW in a vacuum.
Basically this, on top of realism, swords double strike because they are good weapons to combo attacks and are fast weapons, or axes because of big chunk they bleed target, or hammers that can stun target (should be obvious why they can stun), on top of realism, they give so many opportunities how to build your character, sometimes item 55lvl can be stronger then item 60lvl in some situations, all these things add up. Vanilla had very good itemization, I think this guy on video explained it well, but did not bring the RPG behind itemization - realism.
Newer wow and every expansion after vanilla (original game) was going into another direction, more competitive one, we saw that with some changes that includes resist/miss chance and other things like newer spells (for example rogues getting shadow-step to gap close) or something similar. Basically what happened in wotlk when activision took over is that they wanted to make game competitive while lead combat designer wanted to make RPG in combat - meaning that he would create unique spells for each race combined with class from warcraft 3 fantasy, so every warrior would have different spells for each race. This was his idea and he stood strong against competitive - balancing game design, and guess what? he got fired... He did not work on lead designer after that and he quit around cataclysm or Mist of pandaria. Watch him talk about vanilla WoW on youtube, I think he has some of the best argument why vanilla was superior to any other WoW expansion. His name is Kevin Jordan...
There should definitely be a lot of consideration into how each item fits into your overall build, and there should be good build diversity where "it depends" what is the best, depending on the situation, and enemy matchup. I also don't want things to be so OP that player combat skill becomes way less relevant. Good builds and higher level gear should give you an advantage but it shouldn't make player skill obselete, at least to a reasonable degree (such as maybe allowing the highest level stuff to completely overpower the lowest level stuff).
Key to building memorable items is to make some items even if they are obtained in lower levels to be stronger depending on situation.
If you design items that are stronger with each level then it is not vanilla wow style which leans to sandbox gearing and scaling.
For example level 19 boots would give 15 agility and 3 stamina while level 35 boots would give 9 agility, 12 stamina and 5 spirit.
Overall these boots from 35 level are much safer to wear in open world, but if you are in dungeon I would rather take more damage then survival...
Also as Steven mentioned in one of the streams best items are made by crafters so it all boils down how can crafters affect the items.
Personally I'd like to see some ammount of proccing items but not too many to make combat full on rng.