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Lack of focus in this livestream
neuroguy
Member, Alpha Two
I am not quite sure how to feel about this livestream. There were some key things that were intended to be showed off but weren't really. We barely saw the use of the 2 new melee weapons (you have to find it in a fairly long video), I guess it's not a big part of cleric gameplay(?). Blocking occurred literally once. Constellations were not explained in the slightest... like actually though. The cleric skills weren't explained too much. The synergy and stun mechanic was explained well although repeatedly lol. There was also nice information on conviction (the class specific resource for clerics) which was exciting to learn about. It was a 40 minute video...
It felt like more of a livestream intended for someone to see how the game plays and show off visuals instead of communicating and showcasing some specific things. It could have been much shorter and focused. This is the first video I've seen that didn't feel focused and that Steven+devs were so concerned with 'playing' that they didn't even showcase the key points. You saw nice environments and many many fights with 2-3 mob types but I mean, you could have had just a handful of packs to fight and called it a day. I much prefer the god power streams where the focus is on communication and showcasing new developments than general gameplay. Like if you want to showcase mace and staff combat: zoom in and move the camera around, turn on god mode so you don't die and just hit the mobs for a minute or two.
I don't know, maybe I'm alone on this.
Edit: to clarify, I am happy if people enjoyed the stream. I having nothing but compliments for Steven and the dev team and this is literally the first dev update I've had any of these issues with, this is just meant to be constructive feedback. That being said, liking the video because it showed the 'feeling of gameplay', as valid as it is, does not negate how little information was provided. You can simultaneously like seeing the feeling of gameplay and dislike the lack of information on key things mentioned during the stream, those two things are not mutually exclusive. In a 40 minute video, both could easily be accomplished.
It felt like more of a livestream intended for someone to see how the game plays and show off visuals instead of communicating and showcasing some specific things. It could have been much shorter and focused. This is the first video I've seen that didn't feel focused and that Steven+devs were so concerned with 'playing' that they didn't even showcase the key points. You saw nice environments and many many fights with 2-3 mob types but I mean, you could have had just a handful of packs to fight and called it a day. I much prefer the god power streams where the focus is on communication and showcasing new developments than general gameplay. Like if you want to showcase mace and staff combat: zoom in and move the camera around, turn on god mode so you don't die and just hit the mobs for a minute or two.
I don't know, maybe I'm alone on this.
Edit: to clarify, I am happy if people enjoyed the stream. I having nothing but compliments for Steven and the dev team and this is literally the first dev update I've had any of these issues with, this is just meant to be constructive feedback. That being said, liking the video because it showed the 'feeling of gameplay', as valid as it is, does not negate how little information was provided. You can simultaneously like seeing the feeling of gameplay and dislike the lack of information on key things mentioned during the stream, those two things are not mutually exclusive. In a 40 minute video, both could easily be accomplished.
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Comments
like what needed to be polished that caused the delay?
You're probably not ALONE but I disagree on literally every point.
I feel like I learned a lot, enjoyed it a lot, got a really good feel.
But I admit I also think of Steven's role as a really cool Dungeon Master that we are watching flesh out a system. When such a DM offers to 'let you sit in on a planning session' and calls it a 'Showcase', I'd expect to get EXACTLY what we got, especially at this stage in balance and development.
I feel like there was lots to give feedback on, though a lot of it was subtle, and it seamlessly combined all those things into one flow.
To me therefore the lack of 'focus' was a huge positive, bringing me back to the sort of content I enjoyed from their streams in years past where you get 'a little of everything' and 'a lot of the Dungeon Master explaining how things will work'.
If one wanted something else, then I would think it would be disappointing, yes, but I liked this so much better than the Ranger showcase that if I had to give feedback on the 'presentation style' of this sort of thing, I'd rate it five stars with a commendation and look forward to the next.
Most flagship MMOs aren’t obliged to provide any community outreach until the game launches.
I am disapointed too... Very boring video where I learnt almost nothing. My conclusion is that the development phase is very very far from over and the Alpha 2 will certainly not be here before early 2024.
I'll come back in 6 months.
Interesting take! I'd love to hear what you understood about the constellation system then because I thought nothing was explained.
Right, but I feel like both their time and ours could have been more efficiently spent. Like if they are gonna do them, which I agree is awesome, might as well make it a bit more concise (like they did every other one) you know?
Haha why apologize? If you liked it I'm glad.
The polish is more about the script and explanation I think (or at least that's my point, can't speak for others). Like I'd love people to tell me what they learned, in the 40min video, about the constellation system because I felt like I learned jack.
You're correct there. Nothing very specific was explained (which was my expectation).
We were shown that there are constellations that you can see, and reinforced that there will be effects and/OR interactions with:
Vek, Religion, positioning in the world.
Since I have 'basic assumptions about what that means due to coming from games where it matters a bit', and 'not expecting Ashes to do less than those games', but obviously those are assumptions.
But if you were looking for stuff about the Constellation system, I agree. I was talking about the Cleric and combat parts. The Constellations felt more like a 'hey while we're here let's show a visual thing that we've discussed before'.
For example, if you watched his cursor to learn the effect of the different cleric skills, heals and actions...and if you watched the health bars of the different party members when he did different heals, then you could learn quite about the skills he was using. One could also learn mob behavior, aggro range, effective teamwork and a LOT of other things.
Great job.
- combat was engaging enough that a dev gets absorbed in what's happening even when Steven is asking him a question (which is a good sign - like, this is bare bones 4 skills play test)
- a much better feel for how a party might play together
- the intention for combat pacing
- world design that has a level of depth (coz people can get lost, but the cemetery still feels organized)
- aggro ranges that actually matter
I'm really happy with the above, but I also agree a bit with OP on cleric specific stuff.
Cleric stream was teased, but we didn't get intentional explanations of skills like we did with the archer abilities (probably because some of them look quite similar to A1). I like hearing what the devs are thinking with each ability and different ways they think it could branch.
However, I'd rather not have polished videos - they can save that for announcement trailers and final launch.
Having raw videos is the most honest way for us to see where the game is at, and I wouldn't want that compromised.
I got exactly what I needed though.
As a Cleric, explanations of basic common Cleric skills would tell me nothing other than 'hey we're the same as most other games' or 'hey we'd like to take Healing in a new direction!'
Flow, rhythm, distance, watching HP bars, synergies, cooldowns, targeting...
I was able to get EVERY single one of these things in this video, with lots of comparison points, to a degree that I can say with relative confidence 'this is what healing will feel like in Ashes'.
I was actually WORRIED that we were going to get the useless equivalent of 'here are your skills, they heal this much, this one heals this way', instead of what we got. The numbers don't matter to me, the little things matter. I don't know if other Clerics experienced it the same way or not, but that was my takeaway and I am super thankful for the way it was presented.
"The things I watch for, as a Cleric, were all there, and showcased very well."
Individual things like 'explanations of skills' is so far down my priority list for 'showing me Cleric' that I was practically thankful that ZERO time was devoted to any skill explanations.
There 3 major points that I felt were harmful for the showcase, first, there was absolutely no mention of Hybrid combat and showcasing Both action and tab target mode using the healer, the same mistake that happened during the basic melee attack, and now they did it again, people look at this and immediately assume this is 100% a tab target game, and this goes against intrepid's intention of having the gameplay they share stand on its own feet.
Second, the constellations thing was very poorly explained and left even more questions than answers, and finally, active blocking was only mentioned once, with no details about it, same for everything else "cleric" related. I believe this month's showcase had so much potential that got wasted because of this...
and for me, the gameplay is also an issue, I get it, Steven isn't the best player, (even tho he is an amazing Creative Director
That's my two cents.
I have to agree that the constellations weren't explained at all. That part felt a little weird since that is literally what they were looking for the entire time and we don't even know what they do.
I actually think the opposite, if you were there for a good time and just seeing how it plays, it was a nice stream. But if you came for information, you had to pause or go back and read, find time stamps in a 40min video of the single time they showed blocking etc. The information was not clearly presented or easily available. We've never had to hunt down or pause the right frame before, it's not really how most people would prefer to interact with a dev 'update' I think.
This was a cleric update, why are we supposed to pause the screen when the cursor is in the right place? He only mentioned once that conviction can change one spell from targeting 1 player to 2, presumably because he hit some threshold? Even the conviction system wasn't explained, it was just mentioned/introduced.
I absolutely agree. But aren't those seem secondary to the goal of the showcase and also some of the stuff that is more subject to change? For example, the feedback threads that popped up after were about cleric combat specifically and the day/night + constellation system. They did not ask for feedback on the stuff that seemed to be best showcased haha. And things like mob density and pacing between packs seemed scuffed with crazy re-spawn rates so that stuff is the most subject to change and the least important information to absorb since it will likely be changed (or maybe that's just my assumption?).
I'm surprised that was your expectation, he went over each skill on the skill-bar when he did the ranger showcase. But no clear explanation on the cleric spells or how they interact with conviction. And I'm glad you extracted a lot but you have to agree that objectively, with most people having zero experience in games with a constellation systems (I still don't know what it is btw lol), leaving it for personal interpretation then asking for feedback on a forum thread is highly inefficient. Like read the replies in the thread, most people just think it looks/is cool, and I mean... what else can they say? It's hollow in terms of feedback, no?
I can understand and am happy if you personally enjoyed the stream, but you have to recognize that if your specialized and personal knowledge, or your detailed rewatch of the showcase with multiple pauses (@tautau ) is required to extract information, then it was not a clear or well presented video for the sake of communicating information (which is what a dev update is I thought).
Absolutely agree, it did this extremely well. But it could have done both well within 40 minutes haha.
Why not?
It was a showcase for Cleric.
I would expect the target audience to be Clerics.
It was clearly communicated to me. I'm not really understanding entirely your point, though I don't really want to discredit it.
Would telling you the specifics of Cleric skills in the way that it was for Ranger skills tell you anything about Cleric?
It's the same as 'the Ranger stream actually being largely about placement, charge times, targeting, and longbows'. The skills were practically an afterthought, but the parts of them that were explained were critical to 'how Ranger plays' I think.
All I'm saying is that the information that I, as a Cleric, need, was communicated perfectly, and nearly any OTHER information that could have been communicated would not have been what I needed to know in any way. I would hope it isn't too 'selfish' to hope that a Cleric showcase should be tailored towards informing the Clerics.
Interesting points! I personally think that if they just make a bullet point list of things they are showing off and then devote some dedicated time to it, that would be perfect. I think an easy way to see if the recorded video is good and successful is to see if you can reasonably add timestamps to the youtube video. Like imagine if the youtube video had these time stamps:
0:00 introduction
X:XX mace and staff update
X:XX blocking update
X:XX cleric update (conviction!)
X:XX constellations + day/night cycle
X:XX party gameplay in new biome
Margaret structures the dev updates very well and again, this is an exception to the normally clear and concise dev updates, but the recorded videos can just be a bit more clearly structured.
Stars and constellations in high fantasy are full of secrets that have hidden influences and surprises - I'm really happy that they left it at "they influence things", and then we're left to speculate.
In fact, let's start a thread TO speculate.
It was not just a showcase for the cleric, cleric isn't even in the title
I understand that point of view, but they literally made a thread about it...
Like how can we begin to answer what aspects of the day night cycle w/ constellations are important to you? We have no idea what that is and they want feedback on it, not speculation.
I love speculation posts or 'what if' posts, that shit is so fun to think about and imagine. But there is a strong and important distinction between speculation and the devs asking for feedback on something they show. You can speculate on how the system could be changed in the feedback sure, but with no knowledge on how it works, it's a bit hard and hollow, no?
What the what?
There is no game. There are no clerics. This is information we are being provided that will show people how the cleric class may play and help people decide if they want to play one. You have no idea what any cleric skill does beyond the things they've shown us before and all of that is subject to change. Most people would like to know for example if there are any changes to the cleric skills from A1.
Edit: plus we are meant to give feedback to change this system if we see fit. So 'I am a cleric' has no meaning because there is no cleric and the current version of a cleric may change based on our feedback. I actually don't even know what you mean with your post.
Very well, I'll disengage.
I don't know if it is that you don't play Cleric, but I'm pretty confident that this isn't just me, or some form of super specialized skill.
When you play Cleric, you watch and do certain things. The showcase gave direct access to each and every one of those things in multiple situations, which is more helpful, and it was required to be relatively long for related reasons.
I'm trying to tell you that 'Knowing what Cleric skills do' is MUCH less important to a Cleric than what they showed. I cannot 'read a list of skills for the healer in an MMO' and get any ideas about how it works at ALL. I need what I was given to know if I want to play it or not.
That's all I have to say, I guess. You can consider the point 'conceded' in whatever way is required.
I will hope that Steven and the guys know why I am thankful, and if it was intentional, then this conversation is me 'being supportive of their intention'. I can only be encouraging in feedback of what I benefit from.
Yet oddly, none of the clerics have asked for any information on the skills.
I think I get what you're trying to say, that it was a good showcase of cleric gameplay (I think @CoopTroop said it very nicely). I still would push back that the focus of the stream was more than just this and it could have achieved both this and clear explanation of the other stuff that you already agreed had very little explained.
But keep in mind, this is low lvl cleric gameplay and some people in their feedback have already said they are disappointed in how wack-a-mole it is. It felt very much like WoW to me from watching but we know they explicitly want to make things more interesting than that. So to me, I think this is absolutely not representative of what to expect from cleric gameplay in the final version of the game. I think the details of how conviction works for example is far more important than seeing lvl 14 cleric gameplay for 40 minutes.
Would it not be nice for example then, if they said this is a showcase of cleric gameplay so people would know if this is something they want feedback on? That they want this to be representative of cleric gameplay? Or that it is NOT representative? The fact that I can validly argue that this showcase is not representative of cleric gameplay and neither of us can definitively prove the other wrong with a quote or a timestamp is illustrative of my point.
I want to make sure it is clear that I very much appreciate Steven and the work of all of the devs. I am providing constructive feedback on an anomaly of a dev update.
Maybe people didn't think the stream was great because in general the average AoC stream is off the charts and follows a rigid script
A rigid script is a good thing in a stream, today's stream was more fluid more "stream and chill" vibes
I think Steven did try to show off a bit of stuff all at the same time, cause he was hovering over some skills at the start, he showed off the tree gathering (as a clickbait for the previous stream), tried to show off the constellations (which definitely took a bit too much time) and then went through a few mechanics.
But all of that was jumbled up with small talk with the devs, general gameplay that required attention and Steven's innate sporadic attention span and trains of thought.
I'd prefer if they just did a quick intro of the video and devs, quickly explained the immediately stuff shown to us in the video (that is the cleric and its new abilities) and then went onto showing off that stuff in practical use. Because trying to explain some abilities while executing them at the same time and trying to play the game too requires a particular set of skills, which I think most devs don't have (hell, even most streamers don't have it).
And while the more attentive and analytically-brained people like Azherae would have no issues processing all the things we saw in that video, I think that Intrepid would benefit from, well, dumbing it down a bit and being way more clear with their explanations. In other words, combine this stream with the ranger's showcase and find a middle ground between the two and you'd be golden (imo).
Hmm, well why don't you and all the other clerics tell me exactly how conviction works. Just because you don't ask doesn't mean you understand or that it was clearly explained. Ultimately though, I think as many people have mentioned already, they got a 'feel' for the cleric which is sufficient for them and that's fine. I'm not trying to convince people they shouldn't have liked the livestream lol.
I can't emphasize this enough though, there are no clerics. Nobody is a cleric yet. The cleric they show and the one we will play at launch are not guaranteed to be the same.
But the cleric stuff is a very small part of the lack of information in this livestream. Nobody can argue that there was virtually no explanation for the constellation system, or conviction, or that the amount of time we were showed blocking and combat using maces & staffs was extremely short.