It was clearly communicated to me. I'm not really understanding entirely your point, though I don't really want to discredit it.
Would telling you the specifics of Cleric skills in the way that it was for Ranger skills tell you anything about Cleric?
It's the same as 'the Ranger stream actually being largely about placement, charge times, targeting, and longbows'. The skills were practically an afterthought, but the parts of them that were explained were critical to 'how Ranger plays' I think.
All I'm saying is that the information that I, as a Cleric, need, was communicated perfectly, and nearly any OTHER information that could have been communicated would not have been what I needed to know in any way. I would hope it isn't too 'selfish' to hope that a Cleric showcase should be tailored towards informing the Clerics.
What the what?
There is no game. There are no clerics. This is information we are being provided that will show people how the cleric class may play and help people decide if they want to play one. You have no idea what any cleric skill does beyond the things they've shown us before and all of that is subject to change. Most people would like to know for example if there are any changes to the cleric skills from A1.
Edit: plus we are meant to give feedback to change this system if we see fit. So 'I am a cleric' has no meaning because there is no cleric and the current version of a cleric may change based on our feedback. I actually don't even know what you mean with your post.
I play clerics like 10-20% mainly paladin types. This was very obviously a cleric showcasing...it was pretty clear what things were doing if you were paying attention during the stream as they were explained, and you could easily tell what the skills were doing.
This is no different than the other showcases, i dont remember a point where they said this was a deep dive in extreme detail of every skill that could be changing and being adjusted as well as it is alpha.
This is not a finished game, expectation you need to know exactly every detail on something so people can be mad when things are changed during development doesn't make a whole lot of sense. This should be looked at general not a deep dive like it's a released game, it's about direction, flow and feel and a general idea.
I liked the fact Steven had a hard time finding the constellations...if it's not easily obvious for him, how much more of a contest will it be for us?
Mostly, I think I've come to the realization that each stream with gameplay is becoming more of a bummer because, with each stream, I want to play that much more.
The stream was fine. It's just way more interesting when you're the driver
The only thing that bothers me in general about the gameplay videos is that Steven just does random stuff and at times seems to intentionally troll with how he pulls mobs.
You're trying to showcase something, show it, then once everyone has a base understanding of the thing you wanted to demonstrate, go do random shit and let people see how you weave that element into the gameplay in natural ways.
Steven just randomly going "Oh no!" every time he pulls half the region whilst one of the other devs is trying to explain what a skill or mechanic does, really takes away from the explanation, because then everybody stops listening to it.
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chibibreeMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I like that your perspective is different from mine. I deeply enjoyed the fact that they got a little lost in the game. I do see your points though, they make sense to me. I think they probably could have named the video a little bit different, or created a few videos out of this, if I were to come up with something for them to do differently. I personally don't mind the length of the video, but that also comes from a selfish reason of being a podcast host and having gameplay being able to be ran for a good part of the stream without looping constantly haha.
There were some key things that were intended to be showed off but weren't really. We barely saw the use of the 2 new melee weapons (you have to find it in a fairly long video), I guess it's not a big part of cleric gameplay(?). Blocking occurred literally once. Constellations were not explained in the slightest...
I liked how, when Steven went to chop the tree, it automatically swapped between the staff he was holding and the axe needed to cut the tree down. Once the tree was cut, it automatically swapped back to the staff. I also noticed that, when he went to grab the mace, he had put the shield on first, then the mace. This makes me thing the staff is 2h and the mace is 1h. I think it also goes to show, with all the abilities being lit up still, that both are viable options for weapons -- which is what he intended.
I have no comment on the blocking, Steven did lightly jest at the beginning of the video that people didn't like the way he played ranger, and we have seen Steven get Yeeted across the screen from fighting bosses before, and also instadeathed by his devs haha. I will not comment on Steven's gameplay specifically, but simply offer that I may not have been much better at blocking than he was haha.
As far as the constellations, I wonder if that was a teaser to a race component or just one of those, I gotta find one so that they can see that it exists. The wait to find it almost made it seem as if it was a timed effect (x amount of time goes by and it cycles through the different constellations), or if someone was turning them on and off manually haha.
It felt like more of a livestream intended for someone to see how the game plays and show off visuals instead of communicating and showcasing some specific things. It could have been much shorter and focused. This is the first video I've seen that didn't feel focused and that Steven+devs were so concerned with 'playing' that they didn't even showcase the key points. You saw nice environments and many many fights with 2-3 mob types but I mean, you could have had just a handful of packs to fight and called it a day.
I agree with you on this point, however, it is also a culmination of all the other live streams put together into one. It was really neat to see them combined and working together instead of in one short, specific video.
This is also why I think they could have had 2 videos. 1 shorter and showcasing cleric a little more specifically with its 2 weapons, and then this longer one which does a great job of showcasing things such as weather, class skills and how they play in together, a new biome, the day and night cycle, etc.
I think it is important for Intrepid to showcase that the game is playable instead of just, "Here is how one thing works". I like both, but with so much conversation around A2, I thought it was a smart move to kind of "2 birds one stone" it. I think having the shorter one in addition to the more rounded one could have been awesome as well.
The hardest part about cleric is that it isn't just a "healing your friends while they fight" kind of class, its much more complicated in that you need to attack mobs to more effectively heal your allies, and I think they did a great job showcasing that and how the chains can be used to stun since the cleric is a support class. I do see your point, in the past they did do a video similar to that with the cleric, tank, and other classes. I can see how you feel the stream wasn't focused since you prefer those types of videos.
You honestly can't win with gamers "It looks to scripted it is fake gameplay" or "It isn't scripted enough". THe fact they are just messing around in the game should be one of the best signs...You can't mess around when you are faking things. They are trying to just give a general idea of the group gameplay, im not going to complain a video is too long, it means more to watch.
I play clerics like 10-20% mainly paladin types. This was very obviously a cleric showcasing...it was pretty clear what things were doing if you were paying attention during the stream as they were explained, and you could easily tell what the skills were doing.
This is no different than the other showcases, i dont remember a point where they said this was a deep dive in extreme detail of every skill that could be changing and being adjusted as well as it is alpha.
This is not a finished game, expectation you need to know exactly every detail on something so people can be mad when things are changed during development doesn't make a whole lot of sense. This should be looked at general not a deep dive like it's a released game, it's about direction, flow and feel and a general idea.
Oh come on, that's pretty disingenuous. 'If you were paying attention' is how you are justifying the lack of clarity & structure. I'm gonna go through the video one last time to prove this empirically and compare it to the ranger showcase. I plan this to be my last big comment in this thread.
I'll actually start with the ranger showcase. Every skill was in fact described in detail and we got explicit descriptions of what parts of the design were not finished and what they may do with them down the line. This is of course always with the warning label that everything is subject to change. In the ranger video...:
4:19 quick shot is used for the first time and described immediately in terms of mechanics by a dev as Steven runs around spamming it. They explicitly state that the cooldown has not been balanced yet and so Steven can just spam it right now
5:24 snipe is used for the first time and described immediately in terms of the mechanics
10:45 longbow model is showed off and the auto-attacks are described mechanically. The devs discuss how currently holding the auto-attack does more damage but could be changed to apply status effects or all kinds of things if they want it to
15:25 airstrike is described before it is used and Steven runs around repeatedly using it as it is discussed
16:22 quickshot debuff is described. The UI icons are large and clear
17:03 action vs tab target combat is described
19:39 shortbow is showed and discussed vs the longbow
21:51 explicit feedback requests
24:42 weapon skill tree talk
Very focused on ranger combat as it was a ranger showcase. Every ability used was mechanically described. The ranger is as much a work in progress and subject to change as the cleric is so it is not valid to claim the lack of details for the cleric were due to it being a work in progress.
Now before I talk about the last video, I want to point out that no single piece of criticism I have described (or will describe) is that big of a deal on its own and that this is wholistic feedback. If you focus on a single criticism you can dismiss it sure but also ask yourself as you read, would making this change make things any worse for anyone? I'm also going to highlight things that a more informed viewer may be able to assume from the video. These are fine for us, but as mentioned in a previous comment, the standalone videos get much more views and are more likely to be seen by people with less knowledge so leaving things for them to assume is not reliable and can lead to false expectations and misinformation. The ranger showcase left very little for us to assume in comparison.
Regarding the last video, generally, it had multiple focuses and things that were being showed off. It was teased as a cleric showcase before the stream (which isn't that important) but when the standalone video started, the list of things they mentioned that they will show off were (1) day/night cycle (2) some cemetery areas with undead (3) constellations (4) the cleric including "4 new spells that the cleric will be casting"[3:33] (5) some of the new weapons: mace & staff. All of that is introduced from [2:07-3:41]. Notably active blocking and synergies are not mentioned.
(1) and (2) were fine. The only thing to mention is that they could have showed off everything first then as a separate bit done some group combat through the cemetery where the devs could be silly and have fun to give us a feel for combat. (3) was just not described, nobody can argue against that. Now some people have assumed this was intentional to keep some mystery although it was never explicitly said. Although I'd argue that there is a difference with the absence of information and confusing information vs not spoiling everything to keep a sense of mystery. Look at people's comments here and in the day/night feedback thread, there is a lot of confusion about the little information we were provided about the constellations. If they explicitly said they will not share more info about it for now, or if they specified give us feedback on just the visuals or something, it would be better.
(4) oh boy. You say 'if you were paying attention', let me break that down for you...
3:11-3:27 talk about clerics followed by some break for Steven to chop some wood
4:53-6:27 talk about cleric; they also discussed the importance of mana management for the cleric. Through the entire video, mana never even hits 50% with the lowest being in combat that starts @ 26:32. Presumably this is a balance thing that is not completed. Note that in the ranger showcase they explicitly said the cooldowns are not balanced, no mention of mana management balance here.
7:50-8:37 chains is used and mentioned in the context of class synergies (first time being mentioned). After this, some combat.
9:23 attempt at using synergies, chains was accidentally cancelled.
9:33 first mention of group heal, not described or named, just said 'group heal'
9:44 single target heal used. Not named or described mechanically (or how targetting is done... action vs tab?), just said 'I got you', clicked on his nameplate and healed (life went up).
9:50 first instance of the healing skill that we later find out can chain. Again, no name, no mechanical description. In fact, the animation hit where the fighter used to be and it's not clear if it 'missed' or something. Does it work differently in action combat? Presumably it was just animation lag.
10:13 we are told 'main heal' can actually damage if the target is an enemy
10:24-11:11 conviction is introduced (for the first time ever). The UI buff icons are tiny relative to the ranger showcase, hard to see much. After this, they did the night/day showcase and hunted for the constellation
14:55 a group blessing is cast on the party. Not named or described nor was there an explanation of the buff. Presumably this may have been the group heal skill? That's assuming the 4 new spells mentioned by the dev @ 3:33 are the chain heal, the chains spell, the single target heal and the group heal. This is followed up by combat.
17:43 conviction generation + use of chain heal. Name is provided: "cleansing wave" and dev provides some description of how conviction interacts with it and some general conviction info. Followed up by steam noises, combat etc.
18:53-19:24 conviction gathered and used with cleansing wave... however, only 1 target is healed. Presumably because only 1 target needed healing. Presumably no conviction was consumed.
22:14 successful class synergy showcase with chains and whirlwind
No mention of skills showed in original cleric skills video. No alpha1 comparison. The names of skills are helpful when players want to give feedback.
I think you cannot, in good faith, argue that this showcase was as clear and concise as the ranger showcase. Even if you argue that technically, all 4 skills were showcased (?) and information about conviction and everything else was presented, look at those timestamps. With important other topics and showcases in between, does it matter even if that's technically true? Nobody should be expected to watch this and digest it all clearly, especially not viewers who are not as heavily invested in AoC as many of us here on the forums. This isn't people not paying attention, this is a lack of clarity.
(5) the new weapons were barely showcased. Steven likes to play zoomed out, understandable. But the priority should be to showcase animations that we are expected to give feedback on. For the weapons...
Mace:
8:31-8:34 first mace combat showcase
9:18-9:23 second mace combat (most zoomed in of them all)
9:38-9:43 & 9:50-9:53 third mace combat
10:04-10:12 fourth mace
15:35-15:38 fifth (tree is in the way, can't see)
16:12-16-17 sixth
17:16-17:20 seventh and final
Total time: ~36 seconds with 3 seconds of it obscured by a tree and 5 seconds of actually zoomed in combat (video length: 44:10)
Staff:
20:11-20:15 first instance of staff combat
21:19-21:28 second staff combat
30:21-30:34 third staff (most zoomed in of all)
34:09-34:16 fourth and final staff combat
Total time: ~33 seconds (video length: 44:10)
Blocking:
16:53 blocked a total of 4 melee hits
34:45 block animation for staff but never blocked anything
The time between these events makes it hard for players to see and give feedback, not to mention how zoomed out if was. It's also very easy to miss these with the spell animations and chaos of the other players + mobs at the same time since there was never verbal dialogue regarding the animations of the mace or staff during any of the combat.
And for the last time, I want to emphasize that this is meant to be feedback from people who want this game to succeed. This is not to criticize how much progress is made or the lack of details, this is meant to better communication moving forward and is in no way spoiled or entitled. I trust the mods (i.e. @Vaknar ) to extract the constructive components of the criticism, you don't need to simp and blanket remove all criticism. There have been others on this thread who disagree but understand the validity of the argument without trying to discredit it, you can think the information was there to be extracted and still agree it was not clearly presented.
Anyways, I don't plan to reply on this thread again. Full video timestamps from my detailed watch below. Keep in mind I watched at 1.5x speed so time stamps may be off a second or two.
Cleric + day/night video
0:28 Intro
1:07 ‘new biome’
2:07 itinerary + background
3:11 start ‘looking a little bit at the cleric & some of the new weapons, mace & staff’
3:33 ‘we will also be seeing 4 new spells that the cleric will be casting’
4:27 cleric talk paused
4:39 chopping down a tree
4:53 return to cleric talk [discuss mana management and reliance on party]
6:27 skinwalkers
7:50 mention of chains (no description)
8:01 class synergies being explained [first time being mentioned]
*8:31-8:34* first instance of using mace in combat
8:37 description ends
8:38 setting up ‘observation area’ & night/day showcase
8:50 combat
*9:18-9:23* second instance of mace combat [most zoomed in of all mace combat]
9:23 attempt to show off class synergies (accidentally cancelled by Steven)
9:33 first mention of a ‘group heal’; no mechanics described [we are told they want varied healer gameplay, so mechanics are important]
*9:38-9:43|9:50-9:53* third instance of mace combat
9:44 “I got you” followed by a single target heal [have to be watching nameplate HP bars to tell]
9:50 first instance of what we later find out can be a chain heal. Just a beam of light single target heal. No name, no description. [animation does not hit the target but where the target was. Brings up questions of action mode/aiming]
10:01 hitting respawns
*10:04-10:12* fourth instance of mace combat
10:13 “main heal actually can act as a damage if the target is an enemy” [Action mode? just click name plate? again, no mechanics]
10:24 convictions introduced by dev
11:11 moon mentioned & day/night showcase “day & night are over the course of a few hours”
11:49 constellations introduced
12:34 time speeds up to night
13:32 “we are trying to find constellations”
14:24 found the dawnbreaker
14:55 group blessing [? what does it do?] “you gotta conserve your mana”
15:13 tank & healer going different ways -> combat
*15:35-15:38* attempted fifth instance of mace combat but tree in the way, can’t really see it
*16:12-16:17* sixth instance of mace combat
16:18 “maybe I should take my staff out for this, oh you know I have not shown any active blocking yet” [first mention of active blocking]
16:53 actually showing blocking (total of 4 hits)
*17:16-17:20* seventh instance of mace combat
17:43 “let’s see if I can generate some convictions” followed by chain heal effect & eventually some description by one of the devs (told cleansing wave is name of that heal)
18:22 steam shenanigans
18:46 “let’s see if I can generate more convictions”
18:53 conviction + cleansing wave only hit 1 target [presumably because nobody else needed healing but not addressed; did it consume conviction?]
19:04-19:24 more conviction talk
19:29 taking staff out
19:39 energy subtypes: damage and creatures [first time being mentioned this stream]
*20:11-20:15* first instance of staff combat
21:00 end of energy subtypes chat
21:00 combat
*21:19-21:28* second instance of staff combat
22:14 narrated and successful class synergy showcased; continue to talk about synergies
23:36 “we might need to find a place to rest” [never seen Steven’s mana drop below 2/3 yet but ranger is oom]
24:19 resting attempt
25:30 actually sitting to rest & discuss rest mechanic
26:32 LEEEEROY [most intense combat, mana barely goes below 2/3, still way above 1/2]
28:32 undead and lore
——I am putting in less detail now, just highlighting when new weapon combat occured ——
*30:21-30:34* third instance of staff combat [zoomed in]
*34:09-34:16* fourth instance of staff combat
34:45-35:22 active block convo (steven is active blocking but does not get hit; not sure if people noticed this)
35:23-39:19 running around looking for the sandal until they leave the area and find the constellation (not an observation area, unclear if location mattered)
Ranger video:
4:19 quick shot used; first time ability is used, it is immediately named and mechanically described
Explicitly said it’s not yet balanced so you can just spam it for now
5:24 second ability used and immediately described mechanically
7:14 description of minotaurs + lore -> world lore
10:45 bow model showed and auto-attacks described
14:27 going over snipe again while repeatedly showing it off
15:25 goes to show off the final ability while it is being described, again, mechanically
16:22 more details on quickshot and its debuff
17:03 describe tab vs action combat differences
19:39 short bow showed and discussed relative to the longbow
21:51 explicit questions regarding what kind of feedback they want
24:42 weapon skill trees talk
I play clerics like 10-20% mainly paladin types. This was very obviously a cleric showcasing...it was pretty clear what things were doing if you were paying attention during the stream as they were explained, and you could easily tell what the skills were doing.
This is no different than the other showcases, i dont remember a point where they said this was a deep dive in extreme detail of every skill that could be changing and being adjusted as well as it is alpha.
This is not a finished game, expectation you need to know exactly every detail on something so people can be mad when things are changed during development doesn't make a whole lot of sense. This should be looked at general not a deep dive like it's a released game, it's about direction, flow and feel and a general idea.
Oh come on, that's pretty disingenuous. 'If you were paying attention' is how you are justifying the lack of clarity & structure. I'm gonna go through the video one last time to prove this empirically and compare it to the ranger showcase. I plan this to be my last big comment in this thread.
I'll actually start with the ranger showcase. Every skill was in fact described in detail and we got explicit descriptions of what parts of the design were not finished and what they may do with them down the line. This is of course always with the warning label that everything is subject to change. In the ranger video...:
4:19 quick shot is used for the first time and described immediately in terms of mechanics by a dev as Steven runs around spamming it. They explicitly state that the cooldown has not been balanced yet and so Steven can just spam it right now
5:24 snipe is used for the first time and described immediately in terms of the mechanics
10:45 longbow model is showed off and the auto-attacks are described mechanically. The devs discuss how currently holding the auto-attack does more damage but could be changed to apply status effects or all kinds of things if they want it to
15:25 airstrike is described before it is used and Steven runs around repeatedly using it as it is discussed
16:22 quickshot debuff is described. The UI icons are large and clear
17:03 action vs tab target combat is described
19:39 shortbow is showed and discussed vs the longbow
21:51 explicit feedback requests
24:42 weapon skill tree talk
Very focused on ranger combat as it was a ranger showcase. Every ability used was mechanically described. The ranger is as much a work in progress and subject to change as the cleric is so it is not valid to claim the lack of details for the cleric were due to it being a work in progress.
Now before I talk about the last video, I want to point out that no single piece of criticism I have described (or will describe) is that big of a deal on its own and that this is wholistic feedback. If you focus on a single criticism you can dismiss it sure but also ask yourself as you read, would making this change make things any worse for anyone? I'm also going to highlight things that a more informed viewer may be able to assume from the video. These are fine for us, but as mentioned in a previous comment, the standalone videos get much more views and are more likely to be seen by people with less knowledge so leaving things for them to assume is not reliable and can lead to false expectations and misinformation. The ranger showcase left very little for us to assume in comparison.
Regarding the last video, generally, it had multiple focuses and things that were being showed off. It was teased as a cleric showcase before the stream (which isn't that important) but when the standalone video started, the list of things they mentioned that they will show off were (1) day/night cycle (2) some cemetery areas with undead (3) constellations (4) the cleric including "4 new spells that the cleric will be casting"[3:33] (5) some of the new weapons: mace & staff. All of that is introduced from [2:07-3:41]. Notably active blocking and synergies are not mentioned.
(1) and (2) were fine. The only thing to mention is that they could have showed off everything first then as a separate bit done some group combat through the cemetery where the devs could be silly and have fun to give us a feel for combat. (3) was just not described, nobody can argue against that. Now some people have assumed this was intentional to keep some mystery although it was never explicitly said. Although I'd argue that there is a difference with the absence of information and confusing information vs not spoiling everything to keep a sense of mystery. Look at people's comments here and in the day/night feedback thread, there is a lot of confusion about the little information we were provided about the constellations. If they explicitly said they will not share more info about it for now, or if they specified give us feedback on just the visuals or something, it would be better.
(4) oh boy. You say 'if you were paying attention', let me break that down for you...
3:11-3:27 talk about clerics followed by some break for Steven to chop some wood
4:53-6:27 talk about cleric; they also discussed the importance of mana management for the cleric. Through the entire video, mana never even hits 50% with the lowest being in combat that starts @ 26:32. Presumably this is a balance thing that is not completed. Note that in the ranger showcase they explicitly said the cooldowns are not balanced, no mention of mana management balance here.
7:50-8:37 chains is used and mentioned in the context of class synergies (first time being mentioned). After this, some combat.
9:23 attempt at using synergies, chains was accidentally cancelled.
9:33 first mention of group heal, not described or named, just said 'group heal'
9:44 single target heal used. Not named or described mechanically (or how targetting is done... action vs tab?), just said 'I got you', clicked on his nameplate and healed (life went up).
9:50 first instance of the healing skill that we later find out can chain. Again, no name, no mechanical description. In fact, the animation hit where the fighter used to be and it's not clear if it 'missed' or something. Does it work differently in action combat? Presumably it was just animation lag.
10:13 we are told 'main heal' can actually damage if the target is an enemy
10:24-11:11 conviction is introduced (for the first time ever). The UI buff icons are tiny relative to the ranger showcase, hard to see much. After this, they did the night/day showcase and hunted for the constellation
14:55 a group blessing is cast on the party. Not named or described nor was there an explanation of the buff. Presumably this may have been the group heal skill? That's assuming the 4 new spells mentioned by the dev @ 3:33 are the chain heal, the chains spell, the single target heal and the group heal. This is followed up by combat.
17:43 conviction generation + use of chain heal. Name is provided: "cleansing wave" and dev provides some description of how conviction interacts with it and some general conviction info. Followed up by steam noises, combat etc.
18:53-19:24 conviction gathered and used with cleansing wave... however, only 1 target is healed. Presumably because only 1 target needed healing. Presumably no conviction was consumed.
22:14 successful class synergy showcase with chains and whirlwind
No mention of skills showed in original cleric skills video. No alpha1 comparison. The names of skills are helpful when players want to give feedback.
I think you cannot, in good faith, argue that this showcase was as clear and concise as the ranger showcase. Even if you argue that technically, all 4 skills were showcased (?) and information about conviction and everything else was presented, look at those timestamps. With important other topics and showcases in between, does it matter even if that's technically true? Nobody should be expected to watch this and digest it all clearly, especially not viewers who are not as heavily invested in AoC as many of us here on the forums. This isn't people not paying attention, this is a lack of clarity.
(5) the new weapons were barely showcased. Steven likes to play zoomed out, understandable. But the priority should be to showcase animations that we are expected to give feedback on. For the weapons...
Mace:
8:31-8:34 first mace combat showcase
9:18-9:23 second mace combat (most zoomed in of them all)
9:38-9:43 & 9:50-9:53 third mace combat
10:04-10:12 fourth mace
15:35-15:38 fifth (tree is in the way, can't see)
16:12-16-17 sixth
17:16-17:20 seventh and final
Total time: ~36 seconds with 3 seconds of it obscured by a tree and 5 seconds of actually zoomed in combat (video length: 44:10)
Staff:
20:11-20:15 first instance of staff combat
21:19-21:28 second staff combat
30:21-30:34 third staff (most zoomed in of all)
34:09-34:16 fourth and final staff combat
Total time: ~33 seconds (video length: 44:10)
Blocking:
16:53 blocked a total of 4 melee hits
34:45 block animation for staff but never blocked anything
The time between these events makes it hard for players to see and give feedback, not to mention how zoomed out if was. It's also very easy to miss these with the spell animations and chaos of the other players + mobs at the same time since there was never verbal dialogue regarding the animations of the mace or staff during any of the combat.
And for the last time, I want to emphasize that this is meant to be feedback from people who want this game to succeed. This is not to criticize how much progress is made or the lack of details, this is meant to better communication moving forward and is in no way spoiled or entitled. I trust the mods (i.e. @Vaknar ) to extract the constructive components of the criticism, you don't need to simp and blanket remove all criticism. There have been others on this thread who disagree but understand the validity of the argument without trying to discredit it, you can think the information was there to be extracted and still agree it was not clearly presented.
Anyways, I don't plan to reply on this thread again. Full video timestamps from my detailed watch below. Keep in mind I watched at 1.5x speed so time stamps may be off a second or two.
Cleric + day/night video
0:28 Intro
1:07 ‘new biome’
2:07 itinerary + background
3:11 start ‘looking a little bit at the cleric & some of the new weapons, mace & staff’
3:33 ‘we will also be seeing 4 new spells that the cleric will be casting’
4:27 cleric talk paused
4:39 chopping down a tree
4:53 return to cleric talk [discuss mana management and reliance on party]
6:27 skinwalkers
7:50 mention of chains (no description)
8:01 class synergies being explained [first time being mentioned]
*8:31-8:34* first instance of using mace in combat
8:37 description ends
8:38 setting up ‘observation area’ & night/day showcase
8:50 combat
*9:18-9:23* second instance of mace combat [most zoomed in of all mace combat]
9:23 attempt to show off class synergies (accidentally cancelled by Steven)
9:33 first mention of a ‘group heal’; no mechanics described [we are told they want varied healer gameplay, so mechanics are important]
*9:38-9:43|9:50-9:53* third instance of mace combat
9:44 “I got you” followed by a single target heal [have to be watching nameplate HP bars to tell]
9:50 first instance of what we later find out can be a chain heal. Just a beam of light single target heal. No name, no description. [animation does not hit the target but where the target was. Brings up questions of action mode/aiming]
10:01 hitting respawns
*10:04-10:12* fourth instance of mace combat
10:13 “main heal actually can act as a damage if the target is an enemy” [Action mode? just click name plate? again, no mechanics]
10:24 convictions introduced by dev
11:11 moon mentioned & day/night showcase “day & night are over the course of a few hours”
11:49 constellations introduced
12:34 time speeds up to night
13:32 “we are trying to find constellations”
14:24 found the dawnbreaker
14:55 group blessing [? what does it do?] “you gotta conserve your mana”
15:13 tank & healer going different ways -> combat
*15:35-15:38* attempted fifth instance of mace combat but tree in the way, can’t really see it
*16:12-16:17* sixth instance of mace combat
16:18 “maybe I should take my staff out for this, oh you know I have not shown any active blocking yet” [first mention of active blocking]
16:53 actually showing blocking (total of 4 hits)
*17:16-17:20* seventh instance of mace combat
17:43 “let’s see if I can generate some convictions” followed by chain heal effect & eventually some description by one of the devs (told cleansing wave is name of that heal)
18:22 steam shenanigans
18:46 “let’s see if I can generate more convictions”
18:53 conviction + cleansing wave only hit 1 target [presumably because nobody else needed healing but not addressed; did it consume conviction?]
19:04-19:24 more conviction talk
19:29 taking staff out
19:39 energy subtypes: damage and creatures [first time being mentioned this stream]
*20:11-20:15* first instance of staff combat
21:00 end of energy subtypes chat
21:00 combat
*21:19-21:28* second instance of staff combat
22:14 narrated and successful class synergy showcased; continue to talk about synergies
23:36 “we might need to find a place to rest” [never seen Steven’s mana drop below 2/3 yet but ranger is oom]
24:19 resting attempt
25:30 actually sitting to rest & discuss rest mechanic
26:32 LEEEEROY [most intense combat, mana barely goes below 2/3, still way above 1/2]
28:32 undead and lore
——I am putting in less detail now, just highlighting when new weapon combat occured ——
*30:21-30:34* third instance of staff combat [zoomed in]
*34:09-34:16* fourth instance of staff combat
34:45-35:22 active block convo (steven is active blocking but does not get hit; not sure if people noticed this)
35:23-39:19 running around looking for the sandal until they leave the area and find the constellation (not an observation area, unclear if location mattered)
Ranger video:
4:19 quick shot used; first time ability is used, it is immediately named and mechanically described
Explicitly said it’s not yet balanced so you can just spam it for now
5:24 second ability used and immediately described mechanically
7:14 description of minotaurs + lore -> world lore
10:45 bow model showed and auto-attacks described
14:27 going over snipe again while repeatedly showing it off
15:25 goes to show off the final ability while it is being described, again, mechanically
16:22 more details on quickshot and its debuff
17:03 describe tab vs action combat differences
19:39 short bow showed and discussed relative to the longbow
21:51 explicit questions regarding what kind of feedback they want
24:42 weapon skill trees talk
No one is simping I'm just going to keep this short; these are teases to get some feedback of the classes with some information. There has never been a point where any of these showing is a deep dive on how the class works, nor what I'd really expect until they say so.
You are overexaggerating the ranger show casing, I learned more from the cleric one than the ranger because the mention of more types of mechanics and synergies were involved and mentioned. Ranger show casing was pretty clear, it's not complete yet, your shoot arrows, your skills do damage, and you have some movement. There were not exactly tons of details.
This is an alpha game in development this is not beta. You were shown skills, new mechanics were explained, and again more information was shown here than in the ranger showcase. Everything was easily understandable...
I am sure eventually they will show things in more mechanical showing when the time is right.
Comments
Try to stick closer to the outline professed in the introduction of the demo.
I didn't see any flaming.
Just some genuine critiques.
I play clerics like 10-20% mainly paladin types. This was very obviously a cleric showcasing...it was pretty clear what things were doing if you were paying attention during the stream as they were explained, and you could easily tell what the skills were doing.
This is no different than the other showcases, i dont remember a point where they said this was a deep dive in extreme detail of every skill that could be changing and being adjusted as well as it is alpha.
This is not a finished game, expectation you need to know exactly every detail on something so people can be mad when things are changed during development doesn't make a whole lot of sense. This should be looked at general not a deep dive like it's a released game, it's about direction, flow and feel and a general idea.
Mostly, I think I've come to the realization that each stream with gameplay is becoming more of a bummer because, with each stream, I want to play that much more.
The stream was fine. It's just way more interesting when you're the driver
You're trying to showcase something, show it, then once everyone has a base understanding of the thing you wanted to demonstrate, go do random shit and let people see how you weave that element into the gameplay in natural ways.
Steven just randomly going "Oh no!" every time he pulls half the region whilst one of the other devs is trying to explain what a skill or mechanic does, really takes away from the explanation, because then everybody stops listening to it.
I liked how, when Steven went to chop the tree, it automatically swapped between the staff he was holding and the axe needed to cut the tree down. Once the tree was cut, it automatically swapped back to the staff. I also noticed that, when he went to grab the mace, he had put the shield on first, then the mace. This makes me thing the staff is 2h and the mace is 1h. I think it also goes to show, with all the abilities being lit up still, that both are viable options for weapons -- which is what he intended.
I have no comment on the blocking, Steven did lightly jest at the beginning of the video that people didn't like the way he played ranger, and we have seen Steven get Yeeted across the screen from fighting bosses before, and also instadeathed by his devs haha. I will not comment on Steven's gameplay specifically, but simply offer that I may not have been much better at blocking than he was haha.
As far as the constellations, I wonder if that was a teaser to a race component or just one of those, I gotta find one so that they can see that it exists. The wait to find it almost made it seem as if it was a timed effect (x amount of time goes by and it cycles through the different constellations), or if someone was turning them on and off manually haha.
I agree with you on this point, however, it is also a culmination of all the other live streams put together into one. It was really neat to see them combined and working together instead of in one short, specific video.
This is also why I think they could have had 2 videos. 1 shorter and showcasing cleric a little more specifically with its 2 weapons, and then this longer one which does a great job of showcasing things such as weather, class skills and how they play in together, a new biome, the day and night cycle, etc.
I think it is important for Intrepid to showcase that the game is playable instead of just, "Here is how one thing works". I like both, but with so much conversation around A2, I thought it was a smart move to kind of "2 birds one stone" it. I think having the shorter one in addition to the more rounded one could have been awesome as well.
The hardest part about cleric is that it isn't just a "healing your friends while they fight" kind of class, its much more complicated in that you need to attack mobs to more effectively heal your allies, and I think they did a great job showcasing that and how the chains can be used to stun since the cleric is a support class. I do see your point, in the past they did do a video similar to that with the cleric, tank, and other classes. I can see how you feel the stream wasn't focused since you prefer those types of videos.
Oh come on, that's pretty disingenuous. 'If you were paying attention' is how you are justifying the lack of clarity & structure. I'm gonna go through the video one last time to prove this empirically and compare it to the ranger showcase. I plan this to be my last big comment in this thread.
I'll actually start with the ranger showcase. Every skill was in fact described in detail and we got explicit descriptions of what parts of the design were not finished and what they may do with them down the line. This is of course always with the warning label that everything is subject to change. In the ranger video...:
- 4:19 quick shot is used for the first time and described immediately in terms of mechanics by a dev as Steven runs around spamming it. They explicitly state that the cooldown has not been balanced yet and so Steven can just spam it right now
- 5:24 snipe is used for the first time and described immediately in terms of the mechanics
- 10:45 longbow model is showed off and the auto-attacks are described mechanically. The devs discuss how currently holding the auto-attack does more damage but could be changed to apply status effects or all kinds of things if they want it to
- 15:25 airstrike is described before it is used and Steven runs around repeatedly using it as it is discussed
- 16:22 quickshot debuff is described. The UI icons are large and clear
- 17:03 action vs tab target combat is described
- 19:39 shortbow is showed and discussed vs the longbow
- 21:51 explicit feedback requests
- 24:42 weapon skill tree talk
Very focused on ranger combat as it was a ranger showcase. Every ability used was mechanically described. The ranger is as much a work in progress and subject to change as the cleric is so it is not valid to claim the lack of details for the cleric were due to it being a work in progress.Now before I talk about the last video, I want to point out that no single piece of criticism I have described (or will describe) is that big of a deal on its own and that this is wholistic feedback. If you focus on a single criticism you can dismiss it sure but also ask yourself as you read, would making this change make things any worse for anyone? I'm also going to highlight things that a more informed viewer may be able to assume from the video. These are fine for us, but as mentioned in a previous comment, the standalone videos get much more views and are more likely to be seen by people with less knowledge so leaving things for them to assume is not reliable and can lead to false expectations and misinformation. The ranger showcase left very little for us to assume in comparison.
Regarding the last video, generally, it had multiple focuses and things that were being showed off. It was teased as a cleric showcase before the stream (which isn't that important) but when the standalone video started, the list of things they mentioned that they will show off were (1) day/night cycle (2) some cemetery areas with undead (3) constellations (4) the cleric including "4 new spells that the cleric will be casting"[3:33] (5) some of the new weapons: mace & staff. All of that is introduced from [2:07-3:41]. Notably active blocking and synergies are not mentioned.
(1) and (2) were fine. The only thing to mention is that they could have showed off everything first then as a separate bit done some group combat through the cemetery where the devs could be silly and have fun to give us a feel for combat. (3) was just not described, nobody can argue against that. Now some people have assumed this was intentional to keep some mystery although it was never explicitly said. Although I'd argue that there is a difference with the absence of information and confusing information vs not spoiling everything to keep a sense of mystery. Look at people's comments here and in the day/night feedback thread, there is a lot of confusion about the little information we were provided about the constellations. If they explicitly said they will not share more info about it for now, or if they specified give us feedback on just the visuals or something, it would be better.
(4) oh boy. You say 'if you were paying attention', let me break that down for you...
- 3:11-3:27 talk about clerics followed by some break for Steven to chop some wood
- 4:53-6:27 talk about cleric; they also discussed the importance of mana management for the cleric. Through the entire video, mana never even hits 50% with the lowest being in combat that starts @ 26:32. Presumably this is a balance thing that is not completed. Note that in the ranger showcase they explicitly said the cooldowns are not balanced, no mention of mana management balance here.
- 7:50-8:37 chains is used and mentioned in the context of class synergies (first time being mentioned). After this, some combat.
- 9:23 attempt at using synergies, chains was accidentally cancelled.
- 9:33 first mention of group heal, not described or named, just said 'group heal'
- 9:44 single target heal used. Not named or described mechanically (or how targetting is done... action vs tab?), just said 'I got you', clicked on his nameplate and healed (life went up).
- 9:50 first instance of the healing skill that we later find out can chain. Again, no name, no mechanical description. In fact, the animation hit where the fighter used to be and it's not clear if it 'missed' or something. Does it work differently in action combat? Presumably it was just animation lag.
- 10:13 we are told 'main heal' can actually damage if the target is an enemy
- 10:24-11:11 conviction is introduced (for the first time ever). The UI buff icons are tiny relative to the ranger showcase, hard to see much. After this, they did the night/day showcase and hunted for the constellation
- 14:55 a group blessing is cast on the party. Not named or described nor was there an explanation of the buff. Presumably this may have been the group heal skill? That's assuming the 4 new spells mentioned by the dev @ 3:33 are the chain heal, the chains spell, the single target heal and the group heal. This is followed up by combat.
- 17:43 conviction generation + use of chain heal. Name is provided: "cleansing wave" and dev provides some description of how conviction interacts with it and some general conviction info. Followed up by steam noises, combat etc.
- 18:53-19:24 conviction gathered and used with cleansing wave... however, only 1 target is healed. Presumably because only 1 target needed healing. Presumably no conviction was consumed.
- 22:14 successful class synergy showcase with chains and whirlwind
No mention of skills showed in original cleric skills video. No alpha1 comparison. The names of skills are helpful when players want to give feedback.I think you cannot, in good faith, argue that this showcase was as clear and concise as the ranger showcase. Even if you argue that technically, all 4 skills were showcased (?) and information about conviction and everything else was presented, look at those timestamps. With important other topics and showcases in between, does it matter even if that's technically true? Nobody should be expected to watch this and digest it all clearly, especially not viewers who are not as heavily invested in AoC as many of us here on the forums. This isn't people not paying attention, this is a lack of clarity.
(5) the new weapons were barely showcased. Steven likes to play zoomed out, understandable. But the priority should be to showcase animations that we are expected to give feedback on. For the weapons...
The time between these events makes it hard for players to see and give feedback, not to mention how zoomed out if was. It's also very easy to miss these with the spell animations and chaos of the other players + mobs at the same time since there was never verbal dialogue regarding the animations of the mace or staff during any of the combat.
And for the last time, I want to emphasize that this is meant to be feedback from people who want this game to succeed. This is not to criticize how much progress is made or the lack of details, this is meant to better communication moving forward and is in no way spoiled or entitled. I trust the mods (i.e. @Vaknar ) to extract the constructive components of the criticism, you don't need to simp and blanket remove all criticism. There have been others on this thread who disagree but understand the validity of the argument without trying to discredit it, you can think the information was there to be extracted and still agree it was not clearly presented.
Anyways, I don't plan to reply on this thread again. Full video timestamps from my detailed watch below. Keep in mind I watched at 1.5x speed so time stamps may be off a second or two.
0:28 Intro
1:07 ‘new biome’
2:07 itinerary + background
3:11 start ‘looking a little bit at the cleric & some of the new weapons, mace & staff’
3:33 ‘we will also be seeing 4 new spells that the cleric will be casting’
4:27 cleric talk paused
4:39 chopping down a tree
4:53 return to cleric talk [discuss mana management and reliance on party]
6:27 skinwalkers
7:50 mention of chains (no description)
8:01 class synergies being explained [first time being mentioned]
*8:31-8:34* first instance of using mace in combat
8:37 description ends
8:38 setting up ‘observation area’ & night/day showcase
8:50 combat
*9:18-9:23* second instance of mace combat [most zoomed in of all mace combat]
9:23 attempt to show off class synergies (accidentally cancelled by Steven)
9:33 first mention of a ‘group heal’; no mechanics described [we are told they want varied healer gameplay, so mechanics are important]
*9:38-9:43|9:50-9:53* third instance of mace combat
9:44 “I got you” followed by a single target heal [have to be watching nameplate HP bars to tell]
9:50 first instance of what we later find out can be a chain heal. Just a beam of light single target heal. No name, no description. [animation does not hit the target but where the target was. Brings up questions of action mode/aiming]
10:01 hitting respawns
*10:04-10:12* fourth instance of mace combat
10:13 “main heal actually can act as a damage if the target is an enemy” [Action mode? just click name plate? again, no mechanics]
10:24 convictions introduced by dev
11:11 moon mentioned & day/night showcase “day & night are over the course of a few hours”
11:49 constellations introduced
12:34 time speeds up to night
13:32 “we are trying to find constellations”
14:24 found the dawnbreaker
14:55 group blessing [? what does it do?] “you gotta conserve your mana”
15:13 tank & healer going different ways -> combat
*15:35-15:38* attempted fifth instance of mace combat but tree in the way, can’t really see it
*16:12-16:17* sixth instance of mace combat
16:18 “maybe I should take my staff out for this, oh you know I have not shown any active blocking yet” [first mention of active blocking]
16:53 actually showing blocking (total of 4 hits)
*17:16-17:20* seventh instance of mace combat
17:43 “let’s see if I can generate some convictions” followed by chain heal effect & eventually some description by one of the devs (told cleansing wave is name of that heal)
18:22 steam shenanigans
18:46 “let’s see if I can generate more convictions”
18:53 conviction + cleansing wave only hit 1 target [presumably because nobody else needed healing but not addressed; did it consume conviction?]
19:04-19:24 more conviction talk
19:29 taking staff out
19:39 energy subtypes: damage and creatures [first time being mentioned this stream]
*20:11-20:15* first instance of staff combat
21:00 end of energy subtypes chat
21:00 combat
*21:19-21:28* second instance of staff combat
22:14 narrated and successful class synergy showcased; continue to talk about synergies
23:36 “we might need to find a place to rest” [never seen Steven’s mana drop below 2/3 yet but ranger is oom]
24:19 resting attempt
25:30 actually sitting to rest & discuss rest mechanic
26:32 LEEEEROY [most intense combat, mana barely goes below 2/3, still way above 1/2]
28:32 undead and lore
——I am putting in less detail now, just highlighting when new weapon combat occured ——
*30:21-30:34* third instance of staff combat [zoomed in]
*34:09-34:16* fourth instance of staff combat
34:45-35:22 active block convo (steven is active blocking but does not get hit; not sure if people noticed this)
35:23-39:19 running around looking for the sandal until they leave the area and find the constellation (not an observation area, unclear if location mattered)
Ranger video:
4:19 quick shot used; first time ability is used, it is immediately named and mechanically described
Explicitly said it’s not yet balanced so you can just spam it for now
5:24 second ability used and immediately described mechanically
7:14 description of minotaurs + lore -> world lore
10:45 bow model showed and auto-attacks described
14:27 going over snipe again while repeatedly showing it off
15:25 goes to show off the final ability while it is being described, again, mechanically
16:22 more details on quickshot and its debuff
17:03 describe tab vs action combat differences
19:39 short bow showed and discussed relative to the longbow
21:51 explicit questions regarding what kind of feedback they want
24:42 weapon skill trees talk
No one is simping I'm just going to keep this short; these are teases to get some feedback of the classes with some information. There has never been a point where any of these showing is a deep dive on how the class works, nor what I'd really expect until they say so.
You are overexaggerating the ranger show casing, I learned more from the cleric one than the ranger because the mention of more types of mechanics and synergies were involved and mentioned. Ranger show casing was pretty clear, it's not complete yet, your shoot arrows, your skills do damage, and you have some movement. There were not exactly tons of details.
This is an alpha game in development this is not beta. You were shown skills, new mechanics were explained, and again more information was shown here than in the ranger showcase. Everything was easily understandable...
I am sure eventually they will show things in more mechanical showing when the time is right.