Get rid of levels and replace with skill/stat points

angelicshiya

The idea is pretty simple for every "level" you get, you get a stat point or skill point -possibly both- when your "XP" green bar reaches a check point.

WHY
People want to grind and feel as though they are chasing something, that they are the best at something right? But, people also dont want to feel that the grind is impossible to reach. Take WoW for example, WoW got so bad they had to do a level squish (lv 120 to 60- now back at 70 again with Dragon Flight) because they couldn't figure out what to do every expansion.

Take bdo for example, the gear grind is rediculous because every cycle they have to increase player power by adding more higher tier armor. BDO has the system in place where they have levels but you have a soft and hard cap on levels after a threshold (awakening). So they have two distinct forms of progression that counter each other. The armor that never stops tier chasing, and the levels that never stop. They should have only had one of these, in this case the levels should be kept while the gear chase done away with.

Why for AoC
1. One it prevents the rat race of never-ending higher tier gear chasing every expansion
2. It term of player power, the devs don't need to think of new things every expansion to give players the feeling of personal progression in terms of power.
3. this will prevent the wow mistake of getting all the way up to lv 120 and having to squish.
4. by giving people stats/skill points to distribute on their spells/skills or stat points (strength, intellect, wisdom) instead of levels people will never have to feel like they are "falling behind" everyone else, because levels won't matter.
5. Devs won't feel the need to hit the drawing board every 6 months and figure out what can we do for players to make them feel a sense of progression without bloating the game, when from the very first launch day all the player power we will ever need to "chase" is in term of soft/hard caps on stats points/skill points

Implementation
So basically just like in bdo when you would reach max level you could still level up, it would just take longer (soft/hard cap) and give players the means of being able to stay on their mains wthout making alts. When players in AoC reach "50 stats/skills points it becomes hard capped. So If I have 10 constitution 20 strength 10 defense and 10 movement speed and now I am hard capped, I could get 21 strength eventually, but it may take me one hour for the next increase in player power; and gets progressively longer the more levels you gain.

It reminds me of that old South Park episode of WoW when the fat geek was so OP because he played on that one character for years and the four boys all had to train for weeks to take him down, and it was still a 1v4 that is what I want. Every mmo I play I don't make alts at all. When I reach max level I just wait for next expansion or play another game. I want to be a healer (high priest) and put all my 50 points into intellect (whatever the healng stats is) and when I reach hard cap; after years of traing, I am a Master High Priest and I am the head bishop of the games holy religion (one of the games 7 religions) and I have only played my main and been subbed for four years, my intellects is... let's say 84. but it took me 4 YEARS, (shows how progressively the leveling gets when you just focus on one stat, on one character).

it reminds me of the anime (isekai) BOFURI: I Don't Want to Get Hurt, so I'll Max Out My Defense.

Taleof2Cities

There’s another thread going on this topic, @angelicshiya … on the front page even.

Located Here:

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/54436/remove-leveling-up-or-make-it-harder-and-fun/p1

Depraved

angelicshiya wrote: »

The idea is pretty simple for every "level" you get, you get a stat point or skill point -possibly both- when your "XP" green bar reaches a check point.

WHY
People want to grind and feel as though they are chasing something, that they are the best at something right? But, people also dont want to feel that the grind is impossible to reach. Take WoW for example, WoW got so bad they had to do a level squish (lv 120 to 60- now back at 70 again with Dragon Flight) because they couldn't figure out what to do every expansion.

Take bdo for example, the gear grind is rediculous because every cycle they have to increase player power by adding more higher tier armor. BDO has the system in place where they have levels but you have a soft and hard cap on levels after a threshold (awakening). So they have two distinct forms of progression that counter each other. The armor that never stops tier chasing, and the levels that never stop. They should have only had one of these, in this case the levels should be kept while the gear chase done away with.

Why for AoC
1. One it prevents the rat race of never-ending higher tier gear chasing every expansion
2. It term of player power, the devs don't need to think of new things every expansion to give players the feeling of personal progression in terms of power.
3. this will prevent the wow mistake of getting all the way up to lv 120 and having to squish.
4. by giving people stats/skill points to distribute on their spells/skills or stat points (strength, intellect, wisdom) instead of levels people will never have to feel like they are "falling behind" everyone else, because levels won't matter.
5. Devs won't feel the need to hit the drawing board every 6 months and figure out what can we do for players to make them feel a sense of progression without bloating the game, when from the very first launch day all the player power we will ever need to "chase" is in term of soft/hard caps on stats points/skill points

Implementation
So basically just like in bdo when you would reach max level you could still level up, it would just take longer (soft/hard cap) and give players the means of being able to stay on their mains wthout making alts. When players in AoC reach "50 stats/skills points it becomes hard capped. So If I have 10 constitution 20 strength 10 defense and 10 movement speed and now I am hard capped, I could get 21 strength eventually, but it may take me one hour for the next increase in player power; and gets progressively longer the more levels you gain.

It reminds me of that old South Park episode of WoW when the fat geek was so OP because he played on that one character for years and the four boys all had to train for weeks to take him down, and it was still a 1v4 that is what I want. Every mmo I play I don't make alts at all. When I reach max level I just wait for next expansion or play another game. I want to be a healer (high priest) and put all my 50 points into intellect (whatever the healng stats is) and when I reach hard cap; after years of traing, I am a Master High Priest and I am the head bishop of the games holy religion (one of the games 7 religions) and I have only played my main and been subbed for four years, my intellects is... let's say 84. but it took me 4 YEARS, (shows how progressively the leveling gets when you just focus on one stat, on one character).

it reminds me of the anime (isekai) BOFURI: I Don't Want to Get Hurt, so I'll Max Out My Defense.

6- don't increase the level cap so often?

didn't it take wow almost 20 years to double it?

1- we don't have to chase gear anymore, but we have to chase the never ending rat race of chasing levels.
2- yeah there are different things, not just levels or gear.
3- its not really a mistake, and in fact, it looks more approachable for new players than level 120. you could just keep adding levels and making old levels easier. every game does that, maybe because it works.
4- sure but new players will never catch up then.
5- they would still need to chase infinite levels progression and new quests and content would still need to be added so that you can keep leveling. so yep, back to the drawing board anyways.

i don't like playing alts either, but a lot of people do. so what would be the solution for them?

also, a big problem of multiplayer games is how to get new players to catch up or near catch up with veterans so that they can play together. what would be the solution for new players to catch up on a system with infinite progression?

Azherae

There is a benefit/way I have considered doing this.

I doubt Intrepid will use it, but I figure no one (including them) minds if I ask for opinions on my own designs. As always, if it somehow turns out useful to them, they can have it.

You pay EXP to re-spec in certain ways or to change the enchantments on your gear.

Using this method, you CAN de-level.

You cannot use it while you have exp debt exceeding the exp earned for the current level.

Players who play a lot will have all sorts of ideas, want to re-spec, want to try new things, want to change their builds. It is not entirely necessary to make this easy in a game where your choices are supposed to matter. If you want to change your choice, earn it.

If you want to change your imperfect gear to 'more perfect gear', spend exp on it.

New players will still need 'catchup' (in some people's opinion) but a long leveling period in an interesting RPG with good content is hardly a mind-numbing chore.

So instead of having people hit max level and go 'well I no longer need to level for exp as long as I don't get too much exp debt', they ALSO level so that they can test more stuff. And it should be fine because the act of testing the stuff will probably involve enough PvE tests that they will regain the levels.

Maybe even 'level-tweak' gear for their allies who don't have as much time to play, or just tweak gear for other people for money (if you're worried about RMT, this sort of thing would only require an expansion of the escrow system).

Anyways I disagree with removing levels or exp in general in a game that has:
1. Consequences for build choice
2. Exp Debt to work off
3. No restrictions on gear purchase/trade
4. A supposed 50% of a player's power on average coming from their gear even if the gear is quite good.

It feels like one should just be focusing on making the game good and giving people horizontal-progression stuff to 'do' with their exp so that they aren't 'frustrated' by 'being at endgame'.

I have lots of other opinions on this matter, but these are the ones relevant to this thread.