PVP , will fight or die be our only choices?

Krakhun

In past streams and interviews Steven said that there would be indicators to show stealthed / invisible players. I think this would be a big mistake. In open world pvp there needs to be more options other that fight or die. I think UO did a very good job in this regard. (yeah I'm old) Back then a player had choices when engaging with a pk. You could fight, run, hide , recall, etc. I think true stealth / invisibility would give players another option when it comes to pvp. It would also made the game more exciting, never knowing if you are going to be ambushed just running from one town to another, and make those skills more that just pve skills. But the point of this post is that if fight or die are our only two options, then pvp will likely become annoying rather than exciting.

Ludullu

CCs won't work on greens so if you're ambushed and don't want to fight back - just run, no one will be able to stop you. And if you're trying to run away while flagged, I'd hope that the ttk of 30s-1m would allow most classes to disengage w/o immediately dying.

But full stealth would allow those ambushers to PK you as fast as possible because you would never see them coming, while they'd be free to unload their strongest abilities into you.

Songcaller

You won't get full stealth. The devs don't want the old trope of stealth, back stab and one shot rogues in Ashes.

I think a functional stealth is better than a non functional stealth. Thus, I don't really see how there will be more options than fight, flee or die.

Veeshan

You can get good at running aswell

You can avoid the fight all together by being vigilant of your surrounding when farming/gathering and be ready to leave if u dont trust it.

Or you can play safety in numbers less people will take the chances if u can call for help to hunt attacks down if they do attack in guild territory if you actively respond to you allies being hit

you can do politics to reduces chances of being attacked aswell


Many options

Veeshan

Neurath wrote: »

You won't get full stealth. The devs don't want the old trope of stealth, back stab and one shot rogues in Ashes.

I think a functional stealth is better than a non functional stealth. Thus, I don't really see how there will be more options than fight, flee or die.

tbh darkfall didnt have any stealth at all and by use of terrain you got the same effect alot of the time (since there was no giant name tags giving shit away that most games have)

Both via ambusing or escaping you could stealthily escape via LoS behind solid objects and thick foliage.

Voxtrium

Fight/run/politics/group play/more vigilant play, hop on your steed once your out of range, idk pick your poison. Play smart and you have tons of options, click on a rock and go get a whiskey sour and maybe not.

Krakhun

Let me preface this by saying I love open world pvp, but with the combat mobility (which is a good thing) I don’t believe fleeing is a viable option. You will just get shot in the back until dead. I also think pkers having true stealth is fine, it makes things more exciting. That said I think players should have the option or at least a chance to avoid a pk if they are outmatched or outnumbered. If pvp boils down to fight or die, we may as well be playing a shooter.

Songcaller

I think if you choose to fight, fight to the death. If you are not sure you want to fight then stay green and evade.

You can mount in combat last I saw.

Ludullu

Krakhun wrote: »

Let me preface this by saying I love open world pvp, but with the combat mobility (which is a good thing) I don’t believe fleeing is a viable option. You will just get shot in the back until dead. I also think pkers having true stealth is fine, it makes things more exciting. That said I think players should have the option or at least a chance to avoid a pk if they are outmatched or outnumbered. If pvp boils down to fight or die, we may as well be playing a shooter.

Just running away as a green should outpace an attacking player. And as Neurath said, you can mount and ride away.

Krakhun

I hope you guys are right, but being able to hide in a dungeon and watch a group a pks walk right by you is an awesome feeling. I would really like to have something like that agian.

Atama

This is what I expect will happen:

If you are of a similar power level to your attacker, you can escape pretty easily. They can't CC you if you are green, and they can't do enough damage to you to kill you before you get away.

If you are much weaker than your attacker, then it's possible that you can be killed before you have a chance to get out of their attacking range. Or even one-shot in extreme situations. However, the corruption that the attacker will gain from killing you in such a disparity will be immense. In that case, there will be a massive disincentive for someone to gank you in such a way.

This all seems to be part of Intrepid's plan for open world PvP. Non-consensual PvP will happen, but it won't be all that frequent because there are so many downsides to it.

Krakhun

I guess part of what is confusing me is why everyone think you can just out run a pk. The last combat stream showed light weapons doesn't slow you down at all. I would consider a short bow a light weapon, therefore you are getting shot in the back the whole time your running and not putting any distance between you. And please don't think I'm trying to nerf pvp, I'm not. I just like choices when it comes to playing the game.

Ludullu

Krakhun wrote: »

I guess part of what is confusing me is why everyone think you can just out run a pk. The last combat stream showed light weapons doesn't slow you down at all. I would consider a short bow a light weapon, therefore you are getting shot in the back the whole time your running and not putting any distance between you. And please don't think I'm trying to nerf pvp, I'm not. I just like choices when it comes to playing the game.

Mounts. Also, any movement boosting abilities would probably help a purely running person better than a run&shoot person. And that ranger showcase showed that you can move and shoot, but necessarily sprint and shoot.

Ace1234

I think the choice to avoid combat should occur well before the fight begins. Once the fight begins it shouldn't be optimal to run away and disengage from combat. If it is, then overly passive strategies, kiting, and hit and run tactics could become too strong. It should be possible to attempt to run away during combat, but the other combatant should be capable of catching the retreating player if they play the scenario correctly. Other than that, you should make better preparations before an enemy engages you, if you want to choose to avoid combat altogether.

Ludullu

Ace1234 wrote: »

I think the choice to avoid combat should occur well before the fight begins. Once the fight begins it shouldn't be optimal to run away and disengage from combat. If it is, then overly passive strategies, kiting, and hit and run tactics could become too strong. It should be possible to attempt to run away during combat, but the other combatant should be capable of catching the retreating player if they play the scenario correctly. Other than that, you should make better preparations before an enemy engages you, if you want to choose to avoid combat altogether.

Flagged people can get CCed, so I don't think that's be as big of a problem.

Gui10

Hopefully escaping will be an option as well. And finding help.

Ace1234

@NiKr

Flagged people can get CCed, so I don't think that's be as big of a problem.

Interesting, didn't realize that, if that's the case and it is designed that combatants cannot escape from each other, but non-combatants can escape from other combatants- then im not sure how I feel about non-combatants getting a get out of jail free card to escape once ambushed though, rather than being forced to make better preparations to avoid combat.

My initial reaction is that if it is designed the way I mentioned, then it sounds like it could potentially work well and is probably for the best though, so that could turn out to be good news.

Krakhun

Two things, If you are able to CC a pk, would that not flag you as a combatant, making you vulnerable to all attacks? That could still work if the CC lasts long enough to get some distance. Also, in my experience, pks tend to run in groups. So being prepared with food and pots won't cut it, which is why I advocate for skills like true hiding/stealth/invisibility or other skills that give you OPTIONS (or ways to prepare) before the fight starts.

Ludullu

Krakhun wrote: »

Two things, If you are able to CC a pk, would that not flag you as a combatant, making you vulnerable to all attacks? That could still work if the CC lasts long enough to get some distance. Also, in my experience, pks tend to run in groups. So being prepared with food and pots won't cut it, which is why I advocate for skills like true hiding/stealth/invisibility or other skills that give you OPTIONS (or ways to prepare) before the fight starts.

If by "PKs" you mean red players then no, you do not get flagged for doing anything to them.

Ace1234 wrote: »

Interesting, didn't realize that, if that's the case and it is designed that combatants cannot escape from each other, but non-combatants can escape from other combatants- then im not sure how I feel about non-combatants getting a get out of jail free card to escape once ambushed though, rather than being forced to make better preparations to avoid combat.

My initial reaction is that if it is designed the way I mentioned, then it sounds like it could potentially work well and is probably for the best though, so that could turn out to be good news.

I mean, I doubt it's a "cannot escape" kind of situation, but it'd definitely be easier to run away as a green than as a purple or red.

Also, if those ambushers really wanted to PK the green - I'd assume they could just hit their victim all together and bring the ttk from 30s-1m down to mere seconds.

A lot of things will depend on a lot of other things. The attackers might've been glass cannons, while the victim barely had any defense stats. There could be just one attacker against a green tank or there could be 10 attackers against a weak support. In other words, it's not as easy as just saying "these types of players will always live and these will always die", but I think that the currently proposed ttk is good and that green players should in fact have higher chances of running away.

Ezk1

Flaggin system defines when you get flagged and to what https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Corruption

Aside from that, I also think, that it should be easier to catch player than running away, if you manage to jump on target. Otherwise whole open world pvp start losing meaning.

Krakhun

@NiKr
"If by "PKs" you mean red players then no, you do not get flagged for doing anything to them."
I am sure this is not right. If a green player fights back at all they instantly become purple (a willing combatant)

Ludullu

Ezk1 wrote: »

Otherwise whole open world pvp start losing meaning.

It only loses meaning if your only reason for killing another person is to rob them. But if that's the case then imo the system has already lost meaning.

Ludullu

Krakhun wrote: »

"If by "PKs" you mean red players then no, you do not get flagged for doing anything to them."
I am sure this is not right. If a green player fights back at all they instantly become purple (a willing combatant)

As the link posted in a comment above points out - greens do not get flagged for doing literally anything to a red player. A red player is pretty much a monster in the eyes of the system. They're to be punished and hunted.

Krakhun

@NiKr Interesting, my mistake.

Ace1234

@Krakhun

Two things, If you are able to CC a pk, would that not flag you as a combatant, making you vulnerable to all attacks? That could still work if the CC lasts long enough to get some distance.

Im pretty sure it would flag you too, and at the point that both players are flagged, I don't think it should be optimal to retreat once combat is initiated. Once you both are flagged you shouldn't be able to create distance that can't be overcome by the other combatant. This just implies that in order to have the option to avoid combat then it should be viable to do so maybe through non-combatant means, or pre-battle preparations/planning, so I agree the option should be there, but I don't think it should be optimal once combat is initiated on both ends.

Also, in my experience, pks tend to run in groups. So being prepared with food and pots won't cut it, which is why I advocate for skills like true hiding/stealth/invisibility or other skills that give you OPTIONS (or ways to prepare) before the fight starts.

If they are in a group then they should have that advantage. Yes stealth should be an option, but there should be countermeasures for it- and if that means getting spotted by a group, then so be it, next time travel in a group just like them to nullify their advantage. That way you can still have those fun experiences, but it doesn't discourage that pvp aspect, which is good since pvp offers more options for you too manage, compared to the option of simply being able to avoid combat at all times.

Ezk1

NiKr wrote: »

Ezk1 wrote: »

Otherwise whole open world pvp start losing meaning.

It only loses meaning if your only reason for killing another person is to rob them. But if that's the case then imo the system has already lost meaning.

But whole system encourages to attack other player for loot, right? Of course PVP encounters during other activities is good too, but that is big part of system.

Ludullu

Ezk1 wrote: »

But whole system encourages to attack other player for loot, right? Of course PVP encounters during other activities is good too, but that is big part of system.

This will highly depend on the drop values. Right now I couldn't care less about someone dropping something. I'm gonna be attacking people that are farming a location that I want to farm or if they're kos for my guild, or they're in a warring guild, or an enemy of my node, or any other more concrete reason to kill a person than just "if I kill them there's a small chance that they'll have something very valuable on them, have it in a high enough quantity to drop enough of that thing to justify my corruption (cause killing a purple would be completely useless at that point)".

The only thing that I might consider PKing purely for the loot is the mule, cause the chances are - it has more than a player's inventory worth of stuff and it might be worth the risk. And this kind of kill is definitely encouraged by the current design, considering that I'd get less corruption for it.

Songcaller

You would kill the mule get a stat decrease and be killed by the green dropping 4x more.

In such a circumstance you should kill the green and then the mule as the mule can't fight back.

Krakhun

@Ace1234 I agree, this thread was never meant to discourage pvp. I totally plan on running with a crew, but I'm not going to ask someone to play bodyguard while I go fishing or picking flowers etc. And when I see a fight I can't win coming, I would like options other than dying and dropping my stuff.

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

You would kill the mule get a stat decrease and be killed by the green dropping 4x more.

In such a circumstance you should kill the green and then the mule as the mule can't fight back.

And get x1.5 more corruption for no additional value? If the owner was a fighter he'd probably try to keep the mule alive in the first place. But even if he does try to kill me afterwards, I'll just have to try and outskill him in combat.

We also don't know whether your party/guild mates can loot the mule that you PKed, cause if they can then you can pretty much lose nothing but gain a ton.

Krakhun

New plan, Lets start a PK guild and start working out how we can take advantage of the system.
haha