PVP , will fight or die be our only choices?

In past streams and interviews Steven said that there would be indicators to show stealthed / invisible players. I think this would be a big mistake. In open world pvp there needs to be more options other that fight or die. I think UO did a very good job in this regard. (yeah I'm old) Back then a player had choices when engaging with a pk. You could fight, run, hide , recall, etc. I think true stealth / invisibility would give players another option when it comes to pvp. It would also made the game more exciting, never knowing if you are going to be ambushed just running from one town to another, and make those skills more that just pve skills. But the point of this post is that if fight or die are our only two options, then pvp will likely become annoying rather than exciting.

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Ludullu

Ezk1 wrote: »

Otherwise whole open world pvp start losing meaning.

It only loses meaning if your only reason for killing another person is to rob them. But if that's the case then imo the system has already lost meaning.

Ludullu

Krakhun wrote: »

"If by "PKs" you mean red players then no, you do not get flagged for doing anything to them."
I am sure this is not right. If a green player fights back at all they instantly become purple (a willing combatant)

As the link posted in a comment above points out - greens do not get flagged for doing literally anything to a red player. A red player is pretty much a monster in the eyes of the system. They're to be punished and hunted.

Krakhun

@NiKr Interesting, my mistake.

Ace1234

@Krakhun

Two things, If you are able to CC a pk, would that not flag you as a combatant, making you vulnerable to all attacks? That could still work if the CC lasts long enough to get some distance.

Im pretty sure it would flag you too, and at the point that both players are flagged, I don't think it should be optimal to retreat once combat is initiated. Once you both are flagged you shouldn't be able to create distance that can't be overcome by the other combatant. This just implies that in order to have the option to avoid combat then it should be viable to do so maybe through non-combatant means, or pre-battle preparations/planning, so I agree the option should be there, but I don't think it should be optimal once combat is initiated on both ends.

Also, in my experience, pks tend to run in groups. So being prepared with food and pots won't cut it, which is why I advocate for skills like true hiding/stealth/invisibility or other skills that give you OPTIONS (or ways to prepare) before the fight starts.

If they are in a group then they should have that advantage. Yes stealth should be an option, but there should be countermeasures for it- and if that means getting spotted by a group, then so be it, next time travel in a group just like them to nullify their advantage. That way you can still have those fun experiences, but it doesn't discourage that pvp aspect, which is good since pvp offers more options for you too manage, compared to the option of simply being able to avoid combat at all times.

Ezk1

NiKr wrote: »

Ezk1 wrote: »

Otherwise whole open world pvp start losing meaning.

It only loses meaning if your only reason for killing another person is to rob them. But if that's the case then imo the system has already lost meaning.

But whole system encourages to attack other player for loot, right? Of course PVP encounters during other activities is good too, but that is big part of system.

Ludullu

Ezk1 wrote: »

But whole system encourages to attack other player for loot, right? Of course PVP encounters during other activities is good too, but that is big part of system.

This will highly depend on the drop values. Right now I couldn't care less about someone dropping something. I'm gonna be attacking people that are farming a location that I want to farm or if they're kos for my guild, or they're in a warring guild, or an enemy of my node, or any other more concrete reason to kill a person than just "if I kill them there's a small chance that they'll have something very valuable on them, have it in a high enough quantity to drop enough of that thing to justify my corruption (cause killing a purple would be completely useless at that point)".

The only thing that I might consider PKing purely for the loot is the mule, cause the chances are - it has more than a player's inventory worth of stuff and it might be worth the risk. And this kind of kill is definitely encouraged by the current design, considering that I'd get less corruption for it.

Songcaller

You would kill the mule get a stat decrease and be killed by the green dropping 4x more.

In such a circumstance you should kill the green and then the mule as the mule can't fight back.

Krakhun

@Ace1234 I agree, this thread was never meant to discourage pvp. I totally plan on running with a crew, but I'm not going to ask someone to play bodyguard while I go fishing or picking flowers etc. And when I see a fight I can't win coming, I would like options other than dying and dropping my stuff.

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

You would kill the mule get a stat decrease and be killed by the green dropping 4x more.

In such a circumstance you should kill the green and then the mule as the mule can't fight back.

And get x1.5 more corruption for no additional value? If the owner was a fighter he'd probably try to keep the mule alive in the first place. But even if he does try to kill me afterwards, I'll just have to try and outskill him in combat.

We also don't know whether your party/guild mates can loot the mule that you PKed, cause if they can then you can pretty much lose nothing but gain a ton.

Krakhun

New plan, Lets start a PK guild and start working out how we can take advantage of the system.

haha

Ludullu

Krakhun wrote: »

New plan, Lets start a PK guild and start working out how we can take advantage of the system. haha

There's several of those already. Doubt any of them will succeed, considering the system's design.

Krakhun

@NiKr lol, apologies, my poor attempt at humor.

Ludullu

Krakhun wrote: »

@NiKr lol, apologies, my poor attempt at humor.

Oh, I knew it was a joke. I'm just too boring not to point out that some people take that joke seriously and will fail cause it is a joke to attempt this.

Songcaller

NiKr wrote: »

And get x1.5 more corruption for no additional value? If the owner was a fighter he'd probably try to keep the mule alive in the first place. But even if he does try to kill me afterwards, I'll just have to try and outskill him in combat.

We also don't know whether your party/guild mates can loot the mule that you PKed, cause if they can then you can pretty much lose nothing but gain a ton.

I would think the additional value would be survival. If you are in a group then i doubt you would all focus the mule unless the mule is ridden. I doubt loot will be shared across a group due to corruption coming from the killing blow. Mules aren't caravans.

You would probably compete for the mule kill in a group.

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

You would probably compete for the mule kill in a group.

If only the PKer can loot their victim (no matter if player or mule), then the loot can just be shared later, there'd be no competition for it.

But I would definitely prefer if that was the case cause it'd support the corruption and BH systems much better.

Azherae

Krakhun wrote: »

NiKr lol, apologies, my poor attempt at humor.

You can join mine. Though mine is for testing, so you have to actually put effort into that (compile experiences that go beyond just statistics for Intrepid, etc).

I'm short a person or two due to some recent design decisions.

Krakhun

@Azherae
Thank you for the offer, but as much as I like the rush I get from pvp, I'm not very good at it.

Azherae

Krakhun wrote: »

@Azherae
Thank you for the offer, but as much as I like the rush I get from pvp, I'm not very good at it.

Believe it or not, that's exactly what I need right now.

Speaking more seriously, if 'only people who are actually good at it' are willing to PvP in this way in Ashes, I foresee 'bad things', so I'm interested in collecting the data from all levels of skill.

(don't consider this 'seriously doubling down', I got the joke, just figured I might as well option-select the offer)

Songcaller

NiKr wrote: »

If only the PKer can loot their victim (no matter if player or mule), then the loot can just be shared later, there'd be no competition for it.

But I would definitely prefer if that was the case cause it'd support the corruption and BH systems much better.

Yeah. I'm not sure how it will work because a mule can carry 100 times the amount of a player unless its changed so 25% drop would be too much for one player to receive. I'm not sure how it will work really.

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

Yeah. I'm not sure how it will work because a mule can carry 100 times the amount of a player unless its changed so 25% drop would be too much for one player to receive. I'm not sure how it will work really.

Mule is x10 not x100. So even if the drop is 10%, you'd be getting a full inventory from a fully stacked mule. And any higher percentage would just let you kill mules that are not fully stacked.

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