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Concerns with in game economy
Veeshan
Member
So AoC is very much an player run economy from everything i see in regards with there emphasis on crafters which has a potential to stagnate and crash markets when majority of players hit there BIS items lets take new world tools for example when people got there tool they never needed to buy anymore since there no decay on equipment so once every player got there ori tool for example the toolcrafter were now obsolete cause no one will ever purchase a tool again since they got there max level tool for life so generaly in games the only crafters that ended up being needed were the cooks and alchemist because once people bought ur non consumable items they were no longer a customer for you since they were set for rest of game or till next expansion.
So for a player run economy to thrive there need to be equipment decay so there was always a demand for equipment, from my understanding AoC going with a repair system that requires materials to repair items however these items will most likly come from processing not the equipment crafters themself so theyll fall in same issue of being obsolete or hard to find customers for there goods, now you could make repairs kits on the crafters themself which is an improvment but then you basicly only be crafting repair kits to sell instead of armor cause do demand for the armor.
The normal solution to games that have a working player economy is to have easy come easy go system where you have gear eventually be destroyed but fairly easy to make so you keep constant demand but that wont work with AoC since it seems gear gonna be a decent time investment to aquire higher quality stuff coming from drops from raid bosses and things where people wont wont to use that gear over fear of loosing it.
I think the best solution is to have gear be repaired by using crafted gear of the same tier level) that way to repair a raid drop plate chestpiece of max level items you would need to buy a max level plate chestpiece to use as it catalyse to repair it with you would be able t=o use the basic max level equipment for this so there be constant demand for the easier to craft items for crafters aswell to cycle though.
Generaly in MMO you only make money crafting initially and it a race to level up because u know once people out level ur crafted items u loose all sales on that in new world i rushed tools and sold shit loads early on buit after a week they never sold again cause people level past those and people to slow leveling the craft basicly just lost money due to already being obsolete for the entire time.
So for a player run economy to thrive there need to be equipment decay so there was always a demand for equipment, from my understanding AoC going with a repair system that requires materials to repair items however these items will most likly come from processing not the equipment crafters themself so theyll fall in same issue of being obsolete or hard to find customers for there goods, now you could make repairs kits on the crafters themself which is an improvment but then you basicly only be crafting repair kits to sell instead of armor cause do demand for the armor.
The normal solution to games that have a working player economy is to have easy come easy go system where you have gear eventually be destroyed but fairly easy to make so you keep constant demand but that wont work with AoC since it seems gear gonna be a decent time investment to aquire higher quality stuff coming from drops from raid bosses and things where people wont wont to use that gear over fear of loosing it.
I think the best solution is to have gear be repaired by using crafted gear of the same tier level) that way to repair a raid drop plate chestpiece of max level items you would need to buy a max level plate chestpiece to use as it catalyse to repair it with you would be able t=o use the basic max level equipment for this so there be constant demand for the easier to craft items for crafters aswell to cycle though.
Generaly in MMO you only make money crafting initially and it a race to level up because u know once people out level ur crafted items u loose all sales on that in new world i rushed tools and sold shit loads early on buit after a week they never sold again cause people level past those and people to slow leveling the craft basicly just lost money due to already being obsolete for the entire time.
2
Comments
As for tools, our current information according to the wiki is:
Tools will have durability and tool lifespans.
The amount of usages of a gathering tool increases as the gatherer becomes more proficient in the gathering artisan tree.
Tools may become non-repairable, requiring re crafting.
Aren't we all sinners?
Everytime you repaired an item there was a set chance the max durability would be reduced so eventually it get low enough u want to replace it cause it breaks to fast. Pretty much for every 1 point of durability that got repaired there was a 5-2% chance that the durability will be lost and max dura reduced. So this could work for AoC too especialy with the tool useage as mention above.
Seems like a reasonable tool durability loss system, i wouldn't be surprise if Ashes goes for something similar in this regard.
Aren't we all sinners?
the sad part is that the bias most people had against over enchanting in the over enchanting thread were over enchanting from games with bad over enchanting system and not Lineage 2 Over enchanting.
Aren't we all sinners?
It is unlikely that BDO is the culprit in the case James is talking about.
BDO enchanting is always safer/easier than L2. I've had to research this extensively while 'arguing' with James and NiKr.
I don't doubt that some games out there have made the people James is talking about have a stronger dislike for OE, but BDO is not it (in the sense that if people don't like BDO's system, they are not going to like L2's better).
Fair enough.
Either James is right and there is some game out there that has a worse system than L2 and that causes everyone to have that reaction, or James is wrong and just 'believes that more people would be okay with the L2 system'.
I guess we'll know in 5-6 months if TL launches with OE on gear.
I'm pretty sure you can repair an item at 0 durability so you would be correct to state item destruction isn't an actuality but I think the stance hasn't changed since the oe thread yet.
I think it was never 'actual item destruction', but honestly I tend not to think about it or remember the specifics of that one since it is subject to change in specific ways AND the initial concept is a little unclear (something about disabling it, maybe you could still repair it, etc). TL will release sooner, so we'll know then.
BDO does have Destruction for Jewelry, yes, but the Jewelry odds are apparently slightly better than the L2 ones (this is hard to verify because of the massive number of changes and private servers) and you can prevent it (I assume you can do this in L2 also but can't be sure of that either).
Note that I don't agree with James' opinion here, and I'd go parse the thread in question to check, but it's subjective enough that I really doubt anyone would care. People should believe whatever they like about subjective things of this nature (whether or not other people would like something), I feel.
The only 'fact' I can provide (and even that is based only on what I can find) is that BDO isn't the game that would make people hate OE, because BDO's OE is nicer than L2's.
I think item destruction from oe will not be a thing in Ashes because 1. A crafted item should be more resilient to enchants and 2. The unique legendary drops would be decimated and eventually would cease to exist per server.
After all, many of us can't resist the enchantments.
And yeah, you had special scrolls that would keep the item but remove the enchantment lvl. And then later on, in order to boost the fucking p2w even fucking more, NFucksoft introduced items that would keep the enchant lvls on fails. And they added +% items and even fucking +1-3 random scrolls, so you could get a +3 enchant instead of a +1 on the same chance (which iirc could be either protected or increased).
But that later shit is usually disregarded by the main L2 crowd, cause it came in the later later updates. L2 had Epic Jewelry that dropped in single instances (with not even a 100% from certain bosses) from bosses that ranged from 36h respawns to 11-day ones. People usually didn't OE those, even though it made them weaker against the stronger mages on the server. You'd only start OEing them when your guild was the only one farming the boss and your main stack of strongest players already had a piece.
I don't detract from the adrenaline and dopamine hit of a successful upgrade when destruction is a potential. I'm just not sure where the devs stand on the matter after the oe thread.
The chances lower as you get higher, as BDO's do, it's just presented differently because in L2 you lose the item and in BDO you don't. Statistically, L2 is more frustrating (raw numbers, not opinion) based on everything I can find.
You can look into it a ton, or trust my information, either way:
Is the response. The only reason this comes up is because James said that people's opinions would be different if they played L2 instead of 'whatever game they played'.
That random game just ain't BDO. BDO players would not look at L2's system and go 'oh that looks much better'. My personal reaction was 'wait it's WORSE? They can't be serious... they're serious lol'.
84% as of my offhand recollection of non-targeted parse (sentiment only).
More than could be stated comes from l2 and thankfully the craft system comes from swg. I first got into aoc due to the links stated but naturally the playerbase has expanded across the years. When I first bought in I thought the game would launch by 2020 lol.
It is, it certainly is! The absolute majority of people in that thread used mainly BDO as the source of their hatred towards the concept of over enchanting.
I'm not sure about "safer/easier" tho, BDO had direct diminishing chances the higher you went reaching insanely low less than 1% chances of sucess making some people frustratingly fail the same enchant more than 100 times, instead of the consistent ~66% chance L2 had no matter if it was +5 to +6 or +15 to +16.
Sure it made people want to have a security extra item because of the destruction on fail(of low tier enchant)(or to go to 0 with the higher tier one instead) but you always had a reasonable odd not matter how.
Certainly other games have fault in the current over enchanting demonization but BDO is a huge culprit in this regard.
Aren't we all sinners?
Oh, then um... you're wrong.
No one's going to change their opinion based on seeing L2's system if they come from BDO's system because L2's system is way more frustrating.
They would just hate it more.
So yes, all those people absolutely hate even the form of OE that you're saying is fine. It's just a really hated mechanic.
But this is based on the info I found, which implies that it is NOT actually consistently 66% chance across all those, so I'd have to know 'at what point that changed' or 'what server you played on', or whatever else.
As I understand it, you have 66% chance that you succeed, but 33% chance that the item is DESTROYED, (ignore options to mitigate this because BDO has many).
Statistical distribution based on these indicate that L2 is worse. It might be MISLEADING in terms of the emotions it causes, but it's worse.
I welcome more information on it, but please note that I'm likely to be skeptical that L2 is particularly more forgiving. I've seen threads of people complaining about 'seeing three +16s in one day' as if the person achieving this was outright cheating. Maybe, once again, another private server.
And that was mainly one of my issues with the protesters. Even though there was always a lvl of safe improvement for you weapon, people still vehemently protested the destruction, as if they were made to OE all of their stuff.
And I think that particular thing does come directly from BDO, cause iirc your "gear score" there is one of the main factors of who kills and who dies. That wasn't really the case in L2. Or at least not to the extent of what I've heard from BDO. Though maybe I've just heard the very vocal minority who got obliterated by a better skilled player rather than a player that simply had an enchantment lvl one point higher.
0.66^12 = 0.006831675
Anything beyond this will get into the weeds on 'which ways to get around the RNG exist in the two games'.
But BDO players hate 'having to jump through hoops to get around the RNG', so the result would be the same.
Those who have less time would not want destruction for oe as they would be hampered with no catch up mechanic. Of course, the devs can't give a catch up mechanic because it would be p2w or p4c so Steven hints at those scrolls.
If the scolls are earn in game I feel most will use them but destruction without a scroll might seem biased or non conformist so we do have valid issues.