Greetings, glorious adventurers! If you're joining in our Alpha One spot testing, please follow the steps here to see all the latest test info on our forums and Discord!
Options
Saying the quiet part outloud
DeviLzFury
Member
So this is not going to sit right with some and that's ok. I am simply attempting to give my feed back to help improve or possibly improve upon what is being created.
1. Steven should not be the one "showcasing" what ever it is that is being shown. He is more suited for a support/ environment showcase which suits the way he presents to the audience. The tank Showcase did not at all hit the mark of showing off the tank at all as Steven at times was more into Looting, looking around, or running to try and stay alive. I am not a Tank main at all by any means and this showcase would make me not interested at all in trying to look at branching off into something new. It did the opposite if I'm honest.
2. For the love of god stop making these showcase so dam long! Yes give us content but make it to the point, clear and concise. 30-45 mins should be the goal i lost interest in the video as it was getting repetitive and loopy feeling with nothing being shown that was informative, other than learning how to die.
3. The quality of the live streams has been suffering since Oct 2022 at least, imo. It seems like you are going for spit out stuff to stay relevant and on peoples mind rather than quality of what your showing. Being late is also something that should not be happening. You guys should have plenty of time to film, edit, and produce the content. If your not able to do that than maybe your going to fast.
4. Stick with actual mechanics of the game. GM cheats are fine if your showing off the world, assets etc. But for a "build" showcase you need to focus on the "tank" and show it off as its intended to be or at least intended to be at that time frame.
5. Start to think before acting. I say this just from the standpoint of the last lets say 4-5 live streams. They all seem rushed, lack content, lack quality, and are for me personally very off putting as a consumer.
6. Also going into areas that are not meant for the size of the group is also a fail as you have shed light on a possible flaw with how your building difficulty and such.
Steven can play his part for sure in live streams and be the center of the content, but there need to be a pass the touch talk/discussion had as its effecting how your product is being portrayed to the public.
You want feedback on the Tank and Looting seen but really can anyone really give you quality, insightful feedback if the stream didn't provide that the the viewer?
1. Steven should not be the one "showcasing" what ever it is that is being shown. He is more suited for a support/ environment showcase which suits the way he presents to the audience. The tank Showcase did not at all hit the mark of showing off the tank at all as Steven at times was more into Looting, looking around, or running to try and stay alive. I am not a Tank main at all by any means and this showcase would make me not interested at all in trying to look at branching off into something new. It did the opposite if I'm honest.
2. For the love of god stop making these showcase so dam long! Yes give us content but make it to the point, clear and concise. 30-45 mins should be the goal i lost interest in the video as it was getting repetitive and loopy feeling with nothing being shown that was informative, other than learning how to die.
3. The quality of the live streams has been suffering since Oct 2022 at least, imo. It seems like you are going for spit out stuff to stay relevant and on peoples mind rather than quality of what your showing. Being late is also something that should not be happening. You guys should have plenty of time to film, edit, and produce the content. If your not able to do that than maybe your going to fast.
4. Stick with actual mechanics of the game. GM cheats are fine if your showing off the world, assets etc. But for a "build" showcase you need to focus on the "tank" and show it off as its intended to be or at least intended to be at that time frame.
5. Start to think before acting. I say this just from the standpoint of the last lets say 4-5 live streams. They all seem rushed, lack content, lack quality, and are for me personally very off putting as a consumer.
6. Also going into areas that are not meant for the size of the group is also a fail as you have shed light on a possible flaw with how your building difficulty and such.
Steven can play his part for sure in live streams and be the center of the content, but there need to be a pass the touch talk/discussion had as its effecting how your product is being portrayed to the public.
You want feedback on the Tank and Looting seen but really can anyone really give you quality, insightful feedback if the stream didn't provide that the the viewer?
17
Comments
I'd personally be fine if the current mobs remained roughly the same, but I could definitely see how the location from the stream could be easily farmed by a dps-heavy 8-man group w/o even needing a tank, even though mobs did quite a few one-shots.
I come from a game where just pulling a ton of hard-hitting mobs and kiting them until the mages aoe them down was completely fine and right now it kinda seems like AoC could go down this path, but I'd definitely like more variety to the mobs. And if that variety will be present, it should be stated on stream and the location's mob design/distribution should be explained and put in proper context.
Write a loose script of things you want to talk about and show. Get together, run through all that content twice, recording the second time so you have as few screw ups as possible. Make the visuals smooth and informative, get a good video, then sit down and record a voiceover while you’re watching it, following the bullet point script that you wrote to ensure a smooth delivery of verbal information. Voila! Marketing content that’s actually impactful and engaging to people who haven’t already been following the project.
Lastly, turn off mob respawns for these showcases. It’s completely irrelevant to our impression of almost any type of gameplay and only serves to complicate things.
I prefer the live version and reactions over a canned script. It's like listening to the recorded music vs going to the show. Sure the MP3 has better audio but it lacks the vibe and chaos of life.
100%
what was worse and offensive is, on the second video they uploaded on YT - he kinda encourage smaller groups to do it and brought up use of potions to make the content easier.
The entire run, they rarely had mana issue outside of the tank and ranger occasionally. After every fight, most of their HP was fine, when things went south - it was mainly due to HoT tick putting cleric in aggro when he was trying to top off Steven b4 he ran into make a pull w/o communicating to his team.
The first video they were forced to sit cause they tried to bum-rush the content, 2nd not so much, mostly on tank cause he kept pulling and finally ran low on mana.
The last boss fight was a joke, he tank the boss, someone else face tank the add and they were never in any danger both in terms of HP and MP.
I would be semi ok if the context was, this is a 4 man open world dungeon area & even then, it was super easy. 25 minutes upon ENTERING THE KEEP to complete the area and avoiding most of the mobs.
As was said the bigger issue than the showcase itself is the fact that they showed content that looks wayyyy to easy for the intended group size. Obviously they can change that but it just gives the audience the wrong impression of the game. Especially saying make it easier by doing "X".
As for pre recording/scripted vs live. They can do both but not both in the same video/showcase. If you wanna show "live" content and reactions then do it live on stream. For show cases around a build/class/Agriotype, a more formatted recorded approach would be easier as they can take the time to explain things better as is proof with the re recorded YT video they posted.
That also is a big fumble from this live stream as if the recording was not good enough to post after live stream then it should not have been shown during. there were 5k people watching the live stream and that is 5k to many who saw a very garbage showing. Now there is the new video that clearly is better, but still will come off negative due to all the above.
Bottom line they have to stop rushing things just to put stuff IN front of us, and remember to give us quality. IF that means a live stream every 2 months then so be it or they need to make time to make sure the livestreams are correct and presented the right way.
The Wolves of Verra
are recruiting: https://discord.gg/4bFySwxS
I would like to see the showcases more focused and cleaner as well. I do enjoy them generally but I was also disappointed in the Cleric showcase.
The live version is more laid back and I think that certainly has its place, however, to clearly convey information structure and planning is best.
Its the difference between a 'Sunday drive' and getting to the airport on time for your flight. Goals keep you focused and effective.
I understand where you’re coming from, but this is supposed to be marketing material and informational first, fun and chaotic streamer material second, if at all. I don’t spend time watching streamers play video games, because the majority of it is “chaos”.
I’m glad Steven and the devs are having fun with the game, but that’s not what I think most people care to watch the videos for. I think a lot more people would prefer a clear delivery of gameplay information uninhibited by the stresses of gameplay, and gameplay uninhibited by the stresses of explaining the details of gameplay systems.
For instance, having Lazypeon, Asmongold, and whoever else take a fifteen minute chunk of time to fool around in-game and playtest these mechanics would go a long way for community immersion and excitement.
Likewise, having an E-Sports style commentary and play by play overlayed over skilled gameplay would be really good to show the current level of polish, as well as the mechanics functioning as intended.
I really love what's being done here with the dev updates and the recorded showcases. I feel more connected in a meaningful way to AoC than any other game I've ever played because of it. That said as we're seeing more complex content updates, I think that reconsidering the format to suit the situation is also a valuable endeavor.
As far as a 4-man clearing 8-man content, I think that's ok at L15. It might even be ok at L50, as long as it takes 4 good players significantly longer than 8 good players. Remember that they used GM rez 5+ times, and that 3 mob social pull was more than most 4's could handle.
Streamers are not a practical option IMO. Way too much loose cannon going that route. Polished demos should wait for the betas.
And while some people might be ok with that kind of design, quite a lot of us would prefer a more difficult game where this would be, at least, highly improbable. Controlling a "room" or two in a location would be fine if players are skilled enough, but doing that to a whole location is going too far imo.
It's also possible they just have not tuned the difficulty, or even have it tuned down for their streaming purposes. Making their deaths even more amusing.
It's almost certainly tuned down a BIT since adding a Mage to that, as far as Mages generally go in games, will make it even simpler.
All four of the 'missing Archetypes' in this case contribute very directly to overall DPS on any mob, so presumably the health would have been toned down, at least?
I'm moreso concerned that the simplicity of the gameplay is right in that middle spot where you CAN and perhaps SHOULD just 'bring more DPS' to a place like that one. Things dying so relatively quickly (in terms of decisions made, not TTK) means that Bards and Summoners might not even be able to get properly positioned in time before the enemy is down, in which case 'bring more Rangers' is the obvious best answer.
That's probably just the enemy type though, since one wouldn't necessarily have wanted to do that against the Zombies.
when you watch the second video - it was a breeze, They cleared everything in 20 mins the second they entered the KEEP.
The last fight, everyone has 75%+ HP/MP. We know they werent playing patiently, strategically or unfortunately, competently and it was far too ez once they allowed the tank to tank and having another role off-tank. DPS - Time to Kill for a 4 man was relatively fast, considering the context is suppose to be a 8man.
20-25 seconds TTK should be the default for 8 man, thus the 4 man should have taken much longer. But it wasn't. Meaning an 8 man would have killed a mob in 10-12 secs. The entire room for a 8 man would be 10 mins instead of 20. That is bad.
Beofre they entered - they were fighting minos which took then 5-8 seconds to kill. Those were also level 15 regular mobs. Then they began fighting the elite level 15-17 mobs.
Most of us DO NOT WANT SOLO AREAS or SOLO GAMEPLAY. Steven has touted L2 Influence which was heavily influenced by CO-OPERATIVE content. Can you solo some stuff? sure. But be fast and efficient with it? HELL NO.
Is it possible they just have not tuned it? I HOPE SO and we are trying to raise the flag to make sure that is the case and that they will tune it higher. Nothing wrong with that. We as players - in this genre that we call MMO have already lost hope in the genre. Steven has reignited it with his words 6-7 years ago. We are skeptical gamers after all the years of crap we have had. So we need to hold Intrepid Studio accountable and call out stuff that are potential red flags. Better now than when it's too late or falls on deaf ears.
This right here is saying it best. We as a community need to hold their feet to the fire when there are some red flags, its part of this open Dev process in the end. They need the feedback to improve.
The Wolves of Verra
are recruiting: https://discord.gg/4bFySwxS
Similarly I agree with the issue of saying they are a 4-man clearing an 8-man area, it doesn't feel like a suitable showcase if they are not showing off in a suitable area. It also brings up discussions about the difficulty direction of the game, which I am sure was not the intention but naturally people would bring it up in the forum to discuss.
I hope the team sees this and takes the feedback into account, they are doing a great job overall and I just want to see them produce slightly more well thought out streams.
Steven also needs to stop "playing like a noob" during these showcases. There is a time and a place to "play as" but not during a showcase such as tank where you want feedback.
The Wolves of Verra
are recruiting: https://discord.gg/4bFySwxS
But for anything that represented a real challenge, if you wanted actual progression through better gear and such, you needed to group up. Anything that gave you something good was going to be hard. We've really gotten away from that in the MMORPG industry and I always thought Ashes was trying to get us back to something like that.
So I have to say that I agree with you. What you're talking about is one of the core principles of this project. I also think that there is a reason why they toss out a disclaimer for every one of these videos. This isn't done. But they are also asking for our feedback, so I'm glad we're giving it.
Can you solo in EQ, after 20 years, and people figuring out the game, min/max it became possible to do so. So, can you solo in AoC? then I will say yes.
But can you solo and get gear, specifically atleast DECENT gear in EQ? Nope, you barely could. Most good gears hands down required a group or for you to be over-level for it and by the time you were over-level, that gear wasn't worth it anymore.
The Wolves of Verra
are recruiting: https://discord.gg/4bFySwxS
They also need to get further in development to improve...
! Closer to final balancing on weapons
2. Closer to final balancing on mobs
3. enemy mob types and abilities
4. balancing on class kits
5. balancing on special effects, damage types, cc, etc
6. missing class kits
You are talking about red flags and needing to burn dev's feet to the fire, yet you need to realize this is pre alpha 2. The balancing you are talking about isn't going to be fully there by any means.
Only thing i will say is they shouldn't talk about party sizes of content simply just show some group play, etc and say balancing is not worked on and to not expect it. As great as getting feedback is there is too much, consumers won't understand and will not care at all about certain issues or points of development they only care what they see.
As good and amazing as certain things being shown and as exciting as it is, it is just better to hold off because nothing is worse people jumping on a hate train over things that are not nearly as important, and it is taking away from more positive and constructive feedback.
...and still, people just aren't getting it.
It's irrelevant right now that a 4-player team of suped-up GMs beat content that will eventually be aimed at 8-player teams. They haven't balanced the combat values yet. We haven't had the Alpha-2 testing of combat yet. They haven't even made all of the archetypes yet. The combat system itself, and the damage values included in it, haven't been fleshed out, completed, tested, refined, re-tested, re-refined, etc. Why let yourself get caught up on tiny details like that, when you can just enjoy watching it come together piece by piece?
He stated they are ok making content that can be done with few numbers, who will have an EAISER time then they did cause of Pots and other supplies / gear.
WIP or not - THAT IS A RED FLAG when you state an intention.
Not a red flag that is literarily every mmorpg.... using other items will be a benefit for you it is open world dungeons it doesn't mean you need exactly 8 people every time. Doesn't mean that some content will be easier than others with the different dungeons and challenges out there.
Stop trying to look for peak end game raiding they are lvl 15....nor was that advertised in what they were showing.
When Alpha2 is finished and marketing begins, I would expect something of much higher production quality that is more succinct and sensible. Something to entice everyone but us pre alpha testers.
Like, this would literally not be an issue did Steven not say that this was meant to be a location for more people. Alternatively this could've been a "proper difficulty" that would pretty much be the same on release, but then this would not be an 8-man location. If content is this easy then any full group will just go to places with better drops, even if they're supposed to be harder.
At this point Steven's kinda infamous for saying a ton of unneeded stuff. Be it on purpose or not. And I consider that particular statement to be quite unnecessary, exactly because of the context of "10 fucking prefaces of THIS IS AN ALPHA!! NOT DONE YET!!" Just don't address the difficulty at all and you'll have no problems with people assuming what that difficulty would be on release.