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Backgrounds versus Racials

BakageyamaBakageyama Member, Alpha Two
in General Discussion
Just wanted to put my thoughts out here about the removal of racial abilities/traits and moving them into backgrounds.

I'm all for removing racial stats and features so our character cosmetically can be anything we want and not be relegated to specific subsets of races just to be better at a certain thing or class. However, I don't think these features should be moved to a background selection on character creation. While it solves the cosmetic issue, it still keeps the primary issue I have with that system being involved during character creation.

A player may not know what they will enjoy the most out of the game, and asking them to choose their background (especially if they are specific to occupations / activities) during character creation causes feel bad moments. I can remember instances in other games where I felt forced to recreate my character because I learned I made a sub-optimal decision before I could've learned anything about the choice.

Sure this is solved by doing prior research but that shouldn't be a requirement to begin the game. I'd like to see the features be choices presented to the player later in the game, for instance occupation bonuses for interacting with that occupation more often, or a "preferred" occupation bonus. In my opinion the class choice (and personally I'm a fan of not even locking this down) should be the only unchangeable trait of your character.
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Comments

  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Perhaps the 'Risk versus Reward' concept applies here as well. Your character will evolve over time just like you evolve over time. So, you have to make these background choices with imperfect knowledge of what the future holds for you and your character...personally I like this idea a lot.

    Of course, you always have the choice to reroll, at the cost of your accumulated progress.

    It is kind of like how you choose your major for college when you are 18, and at 38 you may regret that choice. Do you change careers? Go back to school? Choices....
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    I don't think we can switch our artisan professions once we've gone deep enough into one, so imo as long as the background choice tells you which artisan profession it relates to - it would be fine to have that choice at the start of the game.

    I'd imagine quite a lot of people have their preferred gameplay even before they start the game, rather than choosing one only after trying everything out first. Though maybe Intrepid should do a discussion thread on that topic and get a poll going or smth. Maybe everyone just doesn't know what they wanna do at all before they play the game.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited February 2023
    I'd have to hear more about the background system and why they feel it's necessary. I think I'd rather them just scrap racial differences without adding another system to replace it.
  • Xnate13XXnate13X Member
    edited February 2023
    I'll pick ticks off a dogs butt. I want whatever makes me the most money. I want to be able to change it to whatever I want when I want, of course with a monetary penalty or what not.
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Bakageyama wrote: »
    Just wanted to put my thoughts out here about the removal of racial abilities/traits and moving them into backgrounds.

    I'm all for removing racial stats and features so our character cosmetically can be anything we want and not be relegated to specific subsets of races just to be better at a certain thing or class. However, I don't think these features should be moved to a background selection on character creation. While it solves the cosmetic issue, it still keeps the primary issue I have with that system being involved during character creation.

    A player may not know what they will enjoy the most out of the game, and asking them to choose their background (especially if they are specific to occupations / activities) during character creation causes feel bad moments. I can remember instances in other games where I felt forced to recreate my character because I learned I made a sub-optimal decision before I could've learned anything about the choice.

    Sure this is solved by doing prior research but that shouldn't be a requirement to begin the game. I'd like to see the features be choices presented to the player later in the game, for instance occupation bonuses for interacting with that occupation more often, or a "preferred" occupation bonus. In my opinion the class choice (and personally I'm a fan of not even locking this down) should be the only unchangeable trait of your character.

    I think we could have both. I'm not really interested in racials that give bonuses to crafting. However, I am still interested in racials like, night vision or something.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    They are wise to ignore racial skills. Look at all the QQ in ESO.

    For an mmo that doesnt have race-locked classes, racial skills promote elitism.
    Mmos with racial classes, like L2 and it's 30 classes, it was neat to see some lore attributed racials that gave a few advantages.


    I find it weird that the same ppl that advocated for customization (robe wearing, bow holding tanks, and heavy armored staff holding bards) want racial skills. Why? It's just greed. And as always, the more customization you give the players, the narrower the meta is. The rest of the ideas go to the non-competitive, thematic bin.
  • Taleof2CitiesTaleof2Cities Member, Alpha Two
    edited February 2023
    George_Black wrote: »
    They are wise to ignore racial skills. Look at all the QQ in ESO.

    Racial skill passives in ESO don't make that big of an impact though ... they're one of the least important choices in a character build.

    In other words, ESO players have to find something to complain about or they're not happy.

    You could argue Ashes will be choosing the same route. The majority of stats in Ashes will be coming from gear and the character's primary archtype (not racial benefits).

    Players in this thread wanting to remove racial stats may be barking up a wrong tree ... because of how little impact it's going to be in character progression.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Ofc they didnt make an impact.
    Still, people were excluded because they didnt have an argonian healer or an altmer magsorc.
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Taleof2Cities wrote: »
    George_Black wrote: »
    They are wise to ignore racial skills. Look at all the QQ in ESO.

    Racial skill passives in ESO don't make that big of an impact though ... they're one of the least important choices in a character build.

    In other words, ESO players have to find something to complain about or they're not happy.

    You could argue Ashes will be choosing the same route. The majority of stats in Ashes will be coming from gear and the character's primary archtype (not racial benefits).

    Players in this thread wanting to remove racial stats may be barking up a wrong tree ... because of how little impact it's going to be in character progression.

    It was always funny watching the regular ESO joe talk about racials like they could ever utilize them. That's why I do not think they're a big deal, only the top players will see anything from min/max.
  • RazThemunRazThemun Member, Alpha Two
    I am not a fan of racial abilities. IMO that ruined wow. Oh you want to be a warrior you best be this race, you want to be a hunter be this race. Race should be one thing you can just pick and it have 0 impact on how your toon plays... should just be cosmetic. Beyond that have at it... just let people pick the race they want to be without worry of some meta
  • Enigmatic SageEnigmatic Sage Member
    Considering choices matter, the same discussion could be said about religion choices or any choice that affects your character. Weird enough to me that the size of your character and weapon doesn't necesarrily affect your melee reach and hitbox in most mmo role playing games themed around medieval fantasy.
  • TryolTryol Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited February 2023
    I don't mind if they have the more impactful skills/mechanics in a system, which players of all races can access, but not leaving anything to be a unique per race is a really bad idea IMO.

    This would be the equivalent of everyone playing one race with a cosmetic skin of their choice on it, there won't be any difference from an RPG standpoint. I thing the solution here would be to have some less impactful racials that still give flavor to the races.

    Yeah, it's a balancing act, like everything else is in the kind of game they are making, but this is such a core part of the RPG fantasy, that it should be one of the last problems you can run away from... and it seems like that's exactly what they are doing.

    TL;DR:
    Degrading RPG racial fantasy to a simple, cosmetic choice is a cowardly move I very rarely see from Intrepid.
    I hope they go back on it at least to some extent.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I've played games without specific racial skills a lot and there aren't issues of everyone playing the same race with different skins. It was conducive to much improved inclusion and much better pvp.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • FreemetaFreemeta Member
    why not have both, background and race? why people complain about race having impact and not about class or any other choices?
    sorry for my bad english, my native langage is french.
    AoC class wish: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/422108#Comment_422108
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Freemeta wrote: »
    why not have both, background and race? why people complain about race having impact and not about class or any other choices?

    Because skill trumps coding? There must be a balance, not like vanilla WoW where Alliance racial skills were better for PvE and Horde racial skills were better for PvP.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • RoxiRoxi Member, Alpha Two
    Where is your fantasy?
    After all, it is absolutely clear that Dünir, having lived in the mountains all his life, should better understand the forge.
    Niküa - forming their home near the water, they either swim better or build ships faster / stronger.
    The Tulnar lived alone underground for many years, side by side with corruption, which means they are most adapted to it.
    Vaelune are children of the desert, they must be resistant to the hot sun.
    This world is full of colors, why mix all the colors and make the world the color of s@#t?
    5ls3nob7lngp.gif
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I'm a roleplayer and I love the background features but a scripted racial benefit is anti RP. There's my fantasy.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • RoxiRoxi Member, Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    I'm a roleplayer and I love the background features but a scripted racial benefit is anti RP. There's my fantasy.

    Yours is not Anti-RP - these are identical gray men. Everything is clear with you.
    5ls3nob7lngp.gif
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    They are not grey men. Each race has specific features and whole node designs based on race. How is that grey?
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    I completely agree!

    Moving things from races and making them background features is the correct decision.

    People should choose their race based on factors such as aesthetics, storylines, and geographic location rather than gameplay-affecting factors.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • FreemetaFreemeta Member
    edited February 2023
    so weaponor armor should be aesthetic choice? light armot with heavy armor stat? skills too?
    sorry for my bad english, my native langage is french.
    AoC class wish: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/422108#Comment_422108
  • insomniainsomnia Member
    I have mixed feelings about this. On one side, it does so you just pick the race that you prefer. Be it story or looks. But on the other side, i feel like it takes away something from the races
  • RoxiRoxi Member, Alpha Two
    we can just as well say that different crafting abilities are just as unbalanced in the game as racial abilities (economically speaking).
    5ls3nob7lngp.gif
  • Ace1234Ace1234 Member
    edited February 2023
    Imo thats exactly why its important to be given an early idea of the types of builds you will eventually be able to make, and how the skills/augments work for your class choice, so that you can make an informed decision early on for the more permanent build choices. I see nothing wrong with giving the player a taste of endgame gameplay to draw them in and steer them in the right direction on what goals they have and how they can achieve them.
  • insomniainsomnia Member
    But now i'm not exited to get to learn about the races (Tulnar). Now they just feel like a cash shop skin to me
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I am honestly fine with both racial stat/skill differences on top of a background system. Just make them things that can benefit multiple classes and roles, and keep them low impact. Like, a small bonus to frost resistance to Dünir and a small fire resist for Vaelune. Just a couple of percent. It's useful for all as a defensive stat. Racial and Background bonuses can be fluff stuff like emotes and dances and such too.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Seems like this would have a major impact on the concept of which race controls the Metro.
    No reason to care about that if Racial progression is not a thing.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Bakageyama wrote: »
    Just wanted to put my thoughts out here about the removal of racial abilities/traits and moving them into backgrounds.

    I'm all for removing racial stats and features so our character cosmetically can be anything we want and not be relegated to specific subsets of races just to be better at a certain thing or class. However, I don't think these features should be moved to a background selection on character creation. While it solves the cosmetic issue, it still keeps the primary issue I have with that system being involved during character creation.

    A player may not know what they will enjoy the most out of the game, and asking them to choose their background (especially if they are specific to occupations / activities) during character creation causes feel bad moments. I can remember instances in other games where I felt forced to recreate my character because I learned I made a sub-optimal decision before I could've learned anything about the choice.

    Sure this is solved by doing prior research but that shouldn't be a requirement to begin the game. I'd like to see the features be choices presented to the player later in the game, for instance occupation bonuses for interacting with that occupation more often, or a "preferred" occupation bonus. In my opinion the class choice (and personally I'm a fan of not even locking this down) should be the only unchangeable trait of your character.

    will all the backgrounds be accessible to every race and class?

    so a human bard can have "former elven cleric, head of the church" as a background?

    or can dwarf have "orc king" as a background?

    or are we having generic backgrounds that can be applied to everybody?
  • FreemetaFreemeta Member
    good point is more options for character customization, instead of some racials we have access to all of them.
    maybe just generic background like: orphan raised by elves.
    i really hope to have risky and rewarding background option with consequences. and give and take options.

    one of the best background imo was in Arcanum (cRPG), really fun!
    Bride of Frankenstein

    Available to female humans and female half-orcs.

    You were reanimated by a mad scientist to be the bride of his other creation, but somehow you managed to escape before the wedding. You are very well constructed, gaining bonuses to Beauty (+4), Constitution (+4), Electrical Resistance (+20%), and Poison Resistance (+10%), but you have a very slow Dexterity (-4), a damaged brain-larynx connection (you use Dumb Dialogue options), and a susceptibility to fire, Fire Resistance (-10%). You also start out with no money whatsoever.

    https://arcanum.fandom.com/wiki/Character_background#Beat_with_an_Ugly_Stick
    https://arcanum.fandom.com/wiki/Dumb_Dialogue

    i'm a great fan of structural passives abilities.
    sorry for my bad english, my native langage is french.
    AoC class wish: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/422108#Comment_422108
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    i loved arcanum
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