Prevent Data Mining?

SpyralPhoenix

Hello there,

I was wondering what Intrepid Studios has planned to deal with data mining. Is there a way to prevent it? In my experience, this harms the game when all cutscenes, changes, etc. are already visible on MMOChampion beforehand.
Perhaps Intrepid Studios wants data mining to be possible. I would be interested in hearing your opinion and the developers' opinion on this.
And what is your opinion on sites like WoWHead where all quests and items are available in a detailed form as a kind of guide?

Freemeta

i always love game when there is no information and we have to discover and experiment everything. but fighting BOT is a priority over this (maybe it's linked).

Kilion

Relevant context from the Wiki: Security Systems

SpyralPhoenix wrote: »

Hello there,
I was wondering what Intrepid Studios has planned to deal with data mining. Is there a way to prevent it? In my experience, this harms the game when all cutscenes, changes, etc. are already visible on MMOChampion beforehand. [...]

I guess there will be some measures in place to prevent competitors from simply copying the code, tools and innovations that Intrepid has created to build Ashes. To what extent is something I can't talk about at all as I am completely uneducated on the methods to do so.

SpyralPhoenix wrote: »

[...] And what is your opinion on sites like WoWHead where all quests and items are available in a detailed form as a kind of guide?

I personally think that it is a tool to ruin the game for yourself. Taking into account that one of the things that make open world games fun (for me and people like me) is actually exploring and discovering things yourself, it seems to me that guide sites like that which just hand you manuals how to achieve something are detrimental to the experience.
It is hard to prevent someone from keeping and publishing a journal - watching someone play the game and beat certain challenges or finding something interesting included as it is a visual journal - so I would guess there is nothing to be done about that. But if someone really wants to engage with the game, they will not use spoilers and guides to interfere with that experience.

Depraved

SpyralPhoenix wrote: »

Hello there,

I was wondering what Intrepid Studios has planned to deal with data mining. Is there a way to prevent it? In my experience, this harms the game when all cutscenes, changes, etc. are already visible on MMOChampion beforehand.
Perhaps Intrepid Studios wants data mining to be possible. I would be interested in hearing your opinion and the developers' opinion on this.
And what is your opinion on sites like WoWHead where all quests and items are available in a detailed form as a kind of guide?

I like websites like that. sometimes you get stuck on a quest or forget it and those sites are great help.
just don't use them if you somehow feel they ruin the game for you

Arya_Yeshe

I do love data mining in MMOs when you can create tools for decision making, specially for industry and market. What happens is that you can find better market opportunities and this also helps the market itself since people will not overproduce what is not worth producing.

SpyralPhoenix

Kilion wrote: »

I personally think that it is a tool to ruin the game for yourself. Taking into account that one of the things that make open world games fun (for me and people like me) is actually exploring and discovering things yourself, it seems to me that guide sites like that which just hand you manuals how to achieve something are detrimental to the experience.
It is hard to prevent someone from keeping and publishing a journal

I agree with you, I also only use such websites very rarely, when I really can't figure out a quest or to check if it might be bugged. But I also often encounter players in MMOs who exclusively use such sites and also expect everyone else to do so. If you don't have the "right" build or don't know something, you get flamed or not invited to groups. Everything has to be perfectly optimized.
That's also one of the reasons why I don't play WoW anymore.

Depraved

SpyralPhoenix wrote: »

Kilion wrote: »

I personally think that it is a tool to ruin the game for yourself. Taking into account that one of the things that make open world games fun (for me and people like me) is actually exploring and discovering things yourself, it seems to me that guide sites like that which just hand you manuals how to achieve something are detrimental to the experience.
It is hard to prevent someone from keeping and publishing a journal

I agree with you, I also only use such websites very rarely, when I really can't figure out a quest or to check if it might be bugged. But I also often encounter players in MMOs who exclusively use such sites and also expect everyone else to do so. If you don't have the "right" build or don't know something, you get flamed or not invited to groups. Everything has to be perfectly optimized.
That's also one of the reasons why I don't play WoW anymore.

well, people might invite someone else over you because they are spending time to clear content, and humans have limited time. maybe you are playing a build that you enjoy playing, and that's fine, but if that means its gonna take an extra 10 mins to run the dungeon, and there's another guy looking for party next to you, with a top dps build, why random people wouldn't pick him over you?

you don't want people to force you to play in a certain way...but by the same token, you are forcing people to play in a certain way as well (by not min maxing, optimizing, , looking for guides, not wasting times, etc). just let everybody play the way they want to play. if you don't like playing with such people, just group with people who don't use guides

also, you cant really prevent data mining. you can slow it down or make it harder for people to do so, but you cant prevent it. everything that is in the client can be accessed by anybody.

Talents

You can't stop people from data mining. Hell, there were people data mining in Alpha 1.

SpyralPhoenix

Depraved wrote: »

you don't want people to force you to play in a certain way...but by the same token, you are forcing people to play in a certain way as well

I agree with you on one point: everyone should be able to play however they want. And I don't expect to be invited to every group if they don't want me. I'm actually happy if it's made clear from the beginning what they expect from their group members.

The problem, however, is that this is not always the case. Often, you find yourself in a group without it being made clear beforehand that you need to know everything about a new dungeon that has only been online for a few days. And then, after an hour, when the first wipe happens, you get flamed for not playing a mechanic correctly that you've never seen before.

Such players expect everyone else to play exactly like they do. This leads to a toxic atmosphere within the group. New players who don't really want to watch guides feel forced to and get the impression that it's necessary.

So, if you want to make a group that wants to play everything efficiently and quickly, you should communicate this clearly before inviting people.

Arya_Yeshe

You described the "carebear toxicity" really well, @SpyralPhoenix. They expect everyone to play in a certain way, like bots.

Everyone has their role to play, and I've had my fair share of party wipes too. But at the same time, the devs are partly to blame for this, since hey have failed to create something more engaging than their dungeons, which force people to play like bots.

Guild Wars 2 has some amazing dungeon experiences, especially those found in the latest expansion. The bosses in GW2's latest expansion require players to fight with as much intensity as if they were playing the latest Street Fighter game. Simply sitting and clicking buttons will almost certainly result in death and a failed run.

novercalis

Talents wrote: »

You can't stop people from data mining. Hell, there were people data mining in Alpha 1.

technically it can be prevented but the negative to that will bloat the game size for us users.

solution: lets pretend a mage spell is getting buffed. Then create 2 additional false flags, so you would have in total 3 info that gets data mine.

1) The Buff info
2) The Debuff Info
3) Just renaming the skill.

So the info becomes useless, as you don't know if the spell is getting re-fluffed, buffed or debuff.

Now you create 2 other spells in different names for different classes. But those 2 are fake. So you dont know if its for the wizard, mage or sorcerer.

now will they go that far - doubt it. but it is possible to undermine data miners.

Smite for a short while would throw red herrings for the data miners to hide stuff and successfully hid stuff in plain sights too.

Depraved

SpyralPhoenix wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

you don't want people to force you to play in a certain way...but by the same token, you are forcing people to play in a certain way as well

I agree with you on one point: everyone should be able to play however they want. And I don't expect to be invited to every group if they don't want me. I'm actually happy if it's made clear from the beginning what they expect from their group members.

The problem, however, is that this is not always the case. Often, you find yourself in a group without it being made clear beforehand that you need to know everything about a new dungeon that has only been online for a few days. And then, after an hour, when the first wipe happens, you get flamed for not playing a mechanic correctly that you've never seen before.

Such players expect everyone else to play exactly like they do. This leads to a toxic atmosphere within the group. New players who don't really want to watch guides feel forced to and get the impression that it's necessary.

So, if you want to make a group that wants to play everything efficiently and quickly, you should communicate this clearly before inviting people.

that's true, I agree with you, but remember that no one can control what others do or what should do. and you are responsible for yourself.

what I do is when I join a group to do a dungeon I've never done before, I say it in the party chat before we go in, and ask if someone can explain to me if there is a special mechanic or something special I need to do. 100/100 times people explain to me what to do on my first run.

also, I might do my first run of a dungeon with a guildmate that has already done it, so I can learn it.

also, youtube.

there is an option in korean lost ark party finder where you can select the skill level of the party.

so you can select something like: "learning the dungeon, first time run", or "veteran, I've completed the dungeon many times before". something like this could be useful when creating parties.

Depraved

novercalis wrote: »

Talents wrote: »

You can't stop people from data mining. Hell, there were people data mining in Alpha 1.

technically it can be prevented but the negative to that will bloat the game size for us users.

solution: lets pretend a mage spell is getting buffed. Then create 2 additional false flags, so you would have in total 3 info that gets data mine.

1) The Buff info
2) The Debuff Info
3) Just renaming the skill.

So the info becomes useless, as you don't know if the spell is getting re-fluffed, buffed or debuff.

Now you create 2 other spells in different names for different classes. But those 2 are fake. So you dont know if its for the wizard, mage or sorcerer.

now will they go that far - doubt it. but it is possible to undermine data miners.

Smite for a short while would throw red herrings for the data miners to hide stuff and successfully hid stuff in plain sights too.

you cant prevent it. the info is still being data mined. you can slow it down, sure, but then when people play the game, they will see the correct spell and it will be on whatever website guide with all the effects, all the builds, etc, which is what worries the OP. if you arent playing a certain build, you wont be invited to a party.

also, what bloats the client is really the media. thousands of lines of text wont really increase the client size more than a few mb

Kilion

SpyralPhoenix wrote: »

Kilion wrote: »

I personally think that it is a tool to ruin the game for yourself. Taking into account that one of the things that make open world games fun (for me and people like me) is actually exploring and discovering things yourself, it seems to me that guide sites like that which just hand you manuals how to achieve something are detrimental to the experience.
It is hard to prevent someone from keeping and publishing a journal

I agree with you, I also only use such websites very rarely, when I really can't figure out a quest or to check if it might be bugged. But I also often encounter players in MMOs who exclusively use such sites and also expect everyone else to do so. If you don't have the "right" build or don't know something, you get flamed or not invited to groups. Everything has to be perfectly optimized.
That's also one of the reasons why I don't play WoW anymore.

Oh yeah, bad times getting into a dungeon with a group from the dungeon finder everyone expecting you to know everything already not leaving you time to read up every now and then when something is not clear to you... I dont know that's not what I play games for.

And I get the part about being hard stuck on an important quest to the point where you think it is a bug (or it is truly not so good game design). I did that maybe three times in my whole years of playing WoW but even then I tried to read as little as possible.

Arya_Yeshe

People telling all about the carebear toxicity, without actually saying it, this is just like in memes.

Veeshan

they could just shove a bunch of missleading poitnless data so it look like x item in game or this does this but in actual fact it fake data that does nothing

Vaknar

Interesting to see an array of opinions on data mining. I could understand arguments for or against it, speaking from personal experience with other MMOs I've played.

I believe there will be some stuff that the team does not want data mined... This could make for a potential question for our next Q&A!

SpyralPhoenix

Vaknar wrote: »

Interesting to see an array of opinions on data mining. I could understand arguments for or against it, speaking from personal experience with other MMOs I've played.

I believe there will be some stuff that the team does not want data mined... This could make for a potential question for our next Q&A!

Thank you for your response, I would be very interested to hear what Steven and Margaret have to say on this topic