Is there enough 24/7 structured PvP available?

The only structured PvP that is not time restricted, not limited to server prime-time (castle & node sieges & related fights) and not occasional (caravans,) is Node Wars and Guild Wars. From the wiki: "These can be declared at any time, but the quest objectives will only spawn during server prime-time, but players can kill each other at any time during the war (not only during server prime-time)."

So to always have PvP available a player will need to be part of a constantly waring node and/or guild.

I have not mentioned Naval PvP because that is 'between ships' according to the wiki, although players can use ranged skills. Nor am I considering corruption as that is likely small scale roamers at best.

So to get as much of an open-world PvP fix as I do on the GW2 WvW maps, I need to join a constantly waring node and/or guild. Right/Wrong/Good/Bad?

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George_Black

WvW in GW2 was as pointless as cyrodiil in eso. It was optional content. Not only optional, but the experience was the same over and over and over.

Why are you after something very limiting such as 24/7, non consequence pvp?
Why does AoC has to have what eso and GW2 have, when its own PvP is a million times more fulfilling.

Have you ever experienced unplanned pvp?
Have you ever decided to attack some other player because they are in your way of your interests?
Have you ever had to keep looking behind you for people that might come to attack you, while in fact you just want to farm or lv up?

I would never again play an mmo where it says "for pvp go line up over there. That's the only place you can pvp. It's safe, with lots of 'objectives' ".

AoC doesnt need a plane with opt-in pvp. It would dilute the real reason to pvp.

Songcaller

Hopefully we can raid nodes we're at war with much like the invasions of Mos Eisley in SWG.

Spif

George_Black wrote: »

WvW in GW2 was as pointless as cyrodiil in eso. It was optional content. Not only optional, but the experience was the same over and over and over.

Why are you after something very limiting such as 24/7, non consequence pvp?
Why does AoC has to have what eso and GW2 have, when its own PvP is a million times more fulfilling.

Have you ever experienced unplanned pvp?
Have you ever decided to attack some other player because they are in your way of your interests?
Have you ever had to keep looking behind you for people that might come to attack you, while in fact you just want to farm or lv up?

I would never again play an mmo where it says "for pvp go line up over there. That's the only place you can pvp. It's safe, with lots of 'objectives' ".

AoC doesnt need a plane with opt-in pvp. It would dilute the real reason to pvp.

As someone who mostly PvP'd in ESO for a couple of years (stopped several years ago), I'd say it had as much of a point as any other part of the game. Note, I crafted enough to craft all the gear and consumables I needed. I farmed all the dungeons I needed to for PvP and even PvE gear. And doing that PvE content was fun for a bit. Leveled alts to try gameplay on them, etc.

A person logs in, gets their friends together (or solo I guess), and wants to PvP. What does that person do? This is an important question to people who like PvP. In ESO/GW2 the answer was Cyrodiil/WvW/battlegrounds. While this didn't work out all the time, everyone knew where to go and it brought like-minded people together to fight each other.

Here are some bad answers to that question:

Wait until 8pm server time for a keep/node battle (assuming there is one today)(assuming you get invited)
Run around looking for a caravan event
Ganking type stuff (it's not really my thing)
Spend time running to a PvP world event only to find it is zerged or empty

Ashes is planning on having travel time be a meaningful restriction. So it's going to be tough to "look around" for PvP.

I'd very much like to have a large open force-flag area with 24/7 objectives to fight over. The mechanics of making this inclusive without preset sides is tough and can take up another whole post.

Vargos

Spif wrote: »

As someone who mostly PvP'd in ESO for a couple of years (stopped several years ago), I'd say it had as much of a point as any other part of the game. Note, I crafted enough to craft all the gear and consumables I needed. I farmed all the dungeons I needed to for PvP and even PvE gear. And doing that PvE content was fun for a bit. Leveled alts to try gameplay on them, etc.

A person logs in, gets their friends together (or solo I guess), and wants to PvP. What does that person do? This is an important question to people who like PvP. In ESO/GW2 the answer was Cyrodiil/WvW/battlegrounds. While this didn't work out all the time, everyone knew where to go and it brought like-minded people together to fight each other.

Here are some bad answers to that question:
Wait until 8pm server time for a keep/node battle (assuming there is one today)(assuming you get invited)

Run around looking for a caravan event

Ganking type stuff (it's not really my thing)

Spend time running to a PvP world event only to find it is zerged or empty

Ashes is planning on having travel time be a meaningful restriction. So it's going to be tough to "look around" for PvP.

I'd very much like to have a large open force-flag area with 24/7 objectives to fight over. The mechanics of making this inclusive without preset sides is tough and can take up another whole post.

I completely agree with the initial idea of your comment.

I think it would be ideal to have a neutral node with constantly active PvP mode and full resource drop from inventory but without death penalty, where you could find some resources for crafting with greater benefit, but also with greater risk.
I think that would fully correspond to the philosophy of the game - "risk vs reward".

It would provide motivation for activity and PvP battles in that territory.
It would be a very lively place where both solo players and groups could find a place for themselves.
Both in the search for PvP activity, as well as in the search for resources.

To be honest, I even had an idea to create a topic about the concept of such a node for general discussion.

Ludullu

Spif wrote: »

As someone who mostly PvP'd in ESO for a couple of years (stopped several years ago), I'd say it had as much of a point as any other part of the game. Note, I crafted enough to craft all the gear and consumables I needed. I farmed all the dungeons I needed to for PvP and even PvE gear. And doing that PvE content was fun for a bit. Leveled alts to try gameplay on them, etc.

A person logs in, gets their friends together (or solo I guess), and wants to PvP. What does that person do? This is an important question to people who like PvP. In ESO/GW2 the answer was Cyrodiil/WvW/battlegrounds. While this didn't work out all the time, everyone knew where to go and it brought like-minded people together to fight each other.

How fast is the gear acquisition in ESO? How fast is the leveling? Are there any kinds of instances or quests that give you good pve/pvp-viable gear?

If AoC's itemization design goes down the oldschool path, gear will be rare and good gear will be even rarer. There's gonna be no separation between pve and pvp gear, so both sides of the player spectrum will have to fight over the same mobs. Everyone can wear any weapon/armor so this strengthens the previous sentence even more. There's gonna be no good gear from instances, so everyone will have to fight everyone else in the open. All of that with tangible death penalties and loss of high value things through node sieges and caravan raids.

That whole paragraph pushes people to fight each other in the open world for the super limited pve, which in turn will give the winners better gear to pvp for even better pve. If you're looking for a game where you just quickly get some gear and go fight pointless fights 24/7 - this game might not be for you. If you're willing to have some pvp in your pve and some pve in your pvp - welcome.

George_Black

When ESO started allowing rmt with gifting people screamed p2w. All I said to myself was "P2w what?"

There was nothing to win at ESO, spare me the opposition. Why should I play ESO cyrodiil when I can go and play MOBA, forhonor and all the other pure pvp game?
Why should I do the boring raids of ESO when I can play DS3 and the likes, for coop adventure?

There was nothing to win in ESO. Eso is for people that play small sessions mmo. "Let's win 1-2 bgs with our organized party vs randoms". Big deal...
"Let's farm the randoms zerg and spam heal heal heal. Dps dps dps".

No wonder people cant see the value of owpvp. No wonder you are still looking for "objectives".
You cant see that mmos are, or were originally, seamless worlds (not refering to dungeons or other instances), seamless worlds in which you:
Level
Quest
Loot
Craft/sell/buy
Specialize
and deal with players and the environment.

You win nothing at eso or gw2. You are pary of the red blue yellow zerg and you fight the smurfs and the bananas.

Good luck in ESO and its real guilds, real goals ("objectives") and real pvp.
Nothing will be optional.
You have the wrong mindset.

Spif

NiKr wrote: »

If you're looking for a game where you just quickly get some gear and go fight pointless fights 24/7 - this game might not be for you. If you're willing to have some pvp in your pve and some pve in your pvp - welcome.

Nice try putting words in my mouth, but that's not what I said

The timeframe doesn't matter. People will cap out (or "softcap" where there's no doable events today that will improve the character's gear), or before that happens people will want to take a break from grinding mobs/quests/dungeons and want to PvP.

You can paint a great picture about resource contention driving conflict, but I don't see it happening. Yes, there will be fights over boss kills. But then the boss will die. Now there's no reason to go back and fight some more assuming you lost (aside from revenge), and no reason to hang around, assuming you won. The PvP is over.

But specifically, if we want to find some PvP why did we go to an overland dungeon and PvE our way to the boss so we can fight someone? And did that team really want a PvP fight or are we just there to gank a group of PvE'rs, or drive them out and take over their farm. Again, only a short burst of PvP and then back to PvE.

Area "owning" doesn't really work when people can be green. How are you going to stop a green group from getting their resources? The first guy to go red is going to get piled on and risk dropping equipped gear.

Gathering is going to be an all green affair, so that's worthless for PvP

It might be that the oceans will be the place where most PvP happens. I probably answered my own question here. It would not be hard to setup objectives (pirate islands) in the ocean that can be taken over and or held for cosmetic rewards/titles/leaderboard rank/etc. These could function similar to keeps in other games.

Ludullu

Spif wrote: »

The timeframe doesn't matter. People will cap out (or "softcap" where there's no doable events today that will improve the character's gear), or before that happens people will want to take a break from grinding mobs/quests/dungeons and want to PvP.

So it wouldn't have to be a 24/7 pvp then, if it's just a "break from other activities". And we got no clue about how long it'd take to fully equip yourself versus how fast new content would come online, so there's a chance that you won't have time to reach soft cap and do nothing.

But even if you do reach a self-imposed soft cap, that'd mean that you're free to go anywhere. So you might join any node siege that might be happening soon. You can go to any super active node and look for caravans. There's always the seas. And if you're in a guild who likes to pvp, there's a high chance that you'll have enemies that you can fight as much as you want. All of those can fill up your break time.

Spif wrote: »

You can paint a great picture about resource contention driving conflict, but I don't see it happening. Yes, there will be fights over boss kills. But then the boss will die. Now there's no reason to go back and fight some more assuming you lost (aside from revenge), and no reason to hang around, assuming you won. The PvP is over.

But specifically, if we want to find some PvP why did we go to an overland dungeon and PvE our way to the boss so we can fight someone? And did that team really want a PvP fight or are we just there to gank a group of PvE'rs, or drive them out and take over their farm. Again, only a short burst of PvP and then back to PvE.

Area "owning" doesn't really work when people can be green. How are you going to stop a green group from getting their resources? The first guy to go red is going to get piled on and risk dropping equipped gear.

I dunno about AA, but L2 wasn't just about boss farming and was way more about farming mobs that provided the mats for crafting. AoC's crafting will provide the best gear, so there's a high chance that mobs will be as valuable as L2's were.

Ashes copied L2's flagging system and majority of groups there flagged up against their attackers because they didn't want to lose their spot and didn't want to waste time getting back to that spot or look for other spots, in case the attackers just go for the mobs and ruin the farm.

Also, in a group vs group situation, the attackers would just need to PK the victim's healer and then protect their own PKer, while the victims can either die to mobs w/o a healer or leave the room. And while there's a chance that the gamer population has completely changed and would absolutely never flag up in no case - I somehow doubt that those kind of people would even play Ashes in the first place. And considering that dungeons will be some ways from nodes, people would be even less inclined to waste time running around instead of proving they're strong enough to hold a location.

Spif wrote: »

Gathering is going to be an all green affair, so that's worthless for PvP

Except dying as a green would lose you more of the stuff you were working on, especially in the case of rare and valuable resources. We still don't know how the corruption will be balanced, so there's a chance that people would be more scared of getting PKed, which would ensure that they lose more resources.

Veeshan

It depends on alot of factors tbh some for example

1. how often will people be running trade ships through the ocean to the other continents or islands
2. How war like ur node ur a citizen of is, they could war dec constantly and so on
3. how often caravans get run which depends alot on how localised resources are and how many u can carry solo on a mount and so on.

Kilion

Trenker wrote: »

The only structured PvP that is not time restricted, not limited to server prime-time (castle & node sieges & related fights) and not occasional (caravans,) is Node Wars and Guild Wars. From the wiki: "These can be declared at any time, but the quest objectives will only spawn during server prime-time, but players can kill each other at any time during the war (not only during server prime-time)."

So to always have PvP available a player will need to be part of a constantly waring node and/or guild.

I have not mentioned Naval PvP because that is 'between ships' according to the wiki, although players can use ranged skills. Nor am I considering corruption as that is likely small scale roamers at best.

So to get as much of an open-world PvP fix as I do on the GW2 WvW maps, I need to join a constantly waring node and/or guild. Right/Wrong/Good/Bad?

From all I've read, you will probably have to move around for constant PvP content, just like one will have to do for PvE. You can contest dungeons as well and I wouldn't be surprised if we would get as part of corrupted areas open world PvP without corruption at some stage of their progression. There also could be other events that lead to more PvP, such as treasure hunts and stuff.

My assumption for now is that for PvP players there are two main ways to play Ashes. One is to dedicate themselves to a Military Node or choose a nomadic lifestyle where you move around between more densely populated areas where PvP events are taking place.

Vargos

NiKr wrote: »

That whole paragraph pushes people to fight each other in the open world for the super limited pve, which in turn will give the winners better gear to pvp for even better pve. If you're looking for a game where you just quickly get some gear and go fight pointless fights 24/7 - this game might not be for you. If you're willing to have some pvp in your pve and some pve in your pvp - welcome.

With such a PK system and penalties, there is a high chance that there will be not a lot of PvP with randoms in open world.
In situations, where the penalty for PK is not that great, the opponent understands that they either have to fight back or they will die.
And with such hard penalty system for PK (as in AoC), they will know that in 99% of cases they won't be killed in a PK.

If someone is the first to arrive to resource vein and start mining resources, what is the point for him to flagging for PvP? They will just continue to mine resources while standing there.

NiKr wrote: »

But even if you do reach a self-imposed soft cap, that'd mean that you're free to go anywhere. So you might join any node siege that might be happening soon. You can go to any super active node and look for caravans. There's always the seas. And if you're in a guild who likes to pvp, there's a high chance that you'll have enemies that you can fight as much as you want. All of those can fill up your break time.

As you write:
"
siege that might be happening soon...
look for caravans...
chance that you'll have enemies that you can fight...
"

Wait half a day, maybe a siege will start...
Run around the node for a few hours, maybe someone will launch a caravan...
Spend a few hours farming in different locations, maybe you'll find someone from an enemy clan...

In the end, during prime time, for example at 5 hr of playing, spend 4 hours to looking for someone to PvP with, and maybe half an hour or an hour of fun, but if you get killed, then it's another half hour to get back from your respawn spot.

Of course, there will probably be PvP between warring clans at farming spots, raid bosses, and so on. But again, the motivation for joining a clan, or accepting a war declaration from another clan, is unclear at this point. If people on a PvE location don't want to PvP, it will be hard to force them.
Kill their healer in PK?
Well, they'll come back faster than you'll clear your PK status.

The point here is not that there won't be any PvP in PvE areas, of course there will be to some extent. The point is, when you're tired of grinding and want to distract yourself with PvP, will it be possible to find PvP without spending hours looking for caravans, searching for enemy clan members in locations, or waiting half a day for a siege to start?

Kilion

Vargos wrote: »

The point here is not that there won't be any PvP in PvE areas, of course there will be to some extent. The point is, when you're tired of grinding and want to distract yourself with PvP, will it be possible to find PvP without spending hours looking for caravans, searching for enemy clan members in locations, or waiting half a day for a siege to start?

I guess that'll come down to the amount of opportunities for PvP we will ultimately have and that's something we cannot yet assess. I suspect you will only get a real idea about the amount of PvP you can "quickly" access by waiting for the Alpha if not even Beta to see how player spread will be on a global scale. With that being said, I think the game isn't particularly pushing for people to be able to go full PvP or PvE and not instantly make either one available to anyone at all times.

Maybe you can instantly bonk someone over the head in a Military Nodes arena but other forms of PvP (just like PvE) will require preparation of sorts. These might be more or less extensive depending on where you are, I suspect more frequent PvP to take place in the areas near Islands with Nodes on them because pirates cannot go anywhere else creating a natural pull - just to give an example.

But that's my guess ultimately, the PvP zones will develop naturally and we will have to wait for A2 to say for sure.

Arya_Yeshe

Well, if I had a guild, I would have officers who would have the job of finding fights!

It would be their job bringing PvP content.

Kilion

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Fucking carebears, content is not a reason for playing a game!

People who want to focus on PvE are welcome to do so, the game will present them with the same challenge as you: To find it while trying to avoid "the other side".

This game is PvX, prepare to do both.

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

There's nothing more disapointing than logging on and asking in guild chat if somebody wants to do something different and getting replies like:

-I gotta farm today
-I have to do dailies
etc

Just make a guild that is PvP focused. No need to hate on the PvE crowd.

Arya_Yeshe

Kilion wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Fucking carebears, content is not a reason for playing a game!

People who want to focus on PvE are welcome to do so, the game will present them with the same challenge as you: To find it while trying to avoid "the other side".

This game is PvX, prepare to do both.

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

There's nothing more disapointing than logging on and asking in guild chat if somebody wants to do something different and getting replies like:

-I gotta farm today
-I have to do dailies
etc

Just make a guild that is PvP focused. No need to hate on the PvE crowd.

It is very important hating carebears, they are the whinners who make devs kneel before them and demand bad games!

It's all their faul!

Kilion

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Kilion wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Fucking carebears, content is not a reason for playing a game!

People who want to focus on PvE are welcome to do so, the game will present them with the same challenge as you: To find it while trying to avoid "the other side".

This game is PvX, prepare to do both.

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

There's nothing more disapointing than logging on and asking in guild chat if somebody wants to do something different and getting replies like:

-I gotta farm today
-I have to do dailies
etc

Just make a guild that is PvP focused. No need to hate on the PvE crowd.

It is very important hating carebears, they are the whinners who make devs kneel before them and demand bad games!

It's all their faul!

I hope this is a joke

Songcaller

Kilion wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Kilion wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Fucking carebears, content is not a reason for playing a game!

People who want to focus on PvE are welcome to do so, the game will present them with the same challenge as you: To find it while trying to avoid "the other side".

This game is PvX, prepare to do both.

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

There's nothing more disapointing than logging on and asking in guild chat if somebody wants to do something different and getting replies like:

-I gotta farm today
-I have to do dailies
etc

Just make a guild that is PvP focused. No need to hate on the PvE crowd.

It is very important hating carebears, they are the whinners who make devs kneel before them and demand bad games!

It's all their faul!

I hope this is a joke

I feel the statement is ironic.

Arya_Yeshe

It is very very real, not an irony at all!

Carebears should be held responsible for forcing devs to vanillafy every possible game since the 2000s, then later carebears cry about games not being fun anymore!

Jhoren

Trenker wrote: »

So to get as much of an open-world PvP fix as I do on the GW2 WvW maps, I need to join a constantly waring node and/or guild. Right/Wrong/Good/Bad?

Ashes will not be the game for fixing that particular PvP itch. WvW, or RvR in DAoC and Warhammer Online, are like special game modes in a sense. I would absolutely love to have some sort of perpetual castle/node siege simulator in Ashes in the future, because I love RvR/WvW in general. For release, during primetime, maybe you can travel from siege to siege on different days and hope to get into one as defender or attacker. Or join a mercenary guild with that specialty. But don't count on being able to just log in and do structured pvp like that, like in those other games.

Arya_Yeshe

Jhoren wrote: »

Trenker wrote: »

So to get as much of an open-world PvP fix as I do on the GW2 WvW maps, I need to join a constantly waring node and/or guild. Right/Wrong/Good/Bad?

Ashes will not be the game for fixing that particular PvP itch. WvW, or RvR in DAoC and Warhammer Online, are like special game modes in a sense. I would absolutely love to have some sort of perpetual castle/node siege simulator in Ashes in the future, because I love RvR/WvW in general. For release, during primetime, maybe you can travel from siege to siege on different days and hope to get into one as defender or attacker. Or join a mercenary guild with that specialty. But don't count on being able to just log in and do structured pvp like that, like in those other games.

There is not real mercenary jobs in AoC, since you can't ramsom anything, don't have any diplomacy system... you can declare wars and sieges,that's all. You can't also be hired to fight someone else's war either. There are also no contracts of any kind, no prizes and no payouts.

Having a lot of PvP events will demand a lot of bureaucratic work from the guild and lot's of PvE, then you can have a lot of PvP events.

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