If you are in a raid as DPS, your only job is to deal as much damage as you can.
No one wants you to make any decisions other than those that pertain to your damage output. The more players present, the more focused your specific role is.
Yes. And that's a problem. A problem that shouldn't be actively encouraged and even pandered to by the dev team. The dev team should seek to break that attitude if anything.
Are you actually talking about raids though?
People use different specs/builds and different strategies for different types of content.
You're specifically also saying that 'specialization should be a negative even at the raid level'?
If by specialization you mean rigidly only doing one thing over and over (boss mechanics notwithstanding), yes. It's not the worst problem, and it's an old one indeed, but I don't like it when devs fully lean into it and make it worse. Which is what most modern MMOs have done over the years. I don't mind people being specialized into doing damage, but I think an effort should be put in to keep gameplay dynamic, even in raids. This is made worse when you remove mechanics like threat or mana management, so the only dynamic parts of the fight are the boss's gimmick mechanics and keeping up with a long list of rotating abilities.
I realize this is an old problem. Back in vanilla WoW all warlocks did with their extensive kits was spam doombolts, but I don't think the solution to the problem was making spamming doombolts take 10 buttons instead of one.
I don't personally have much experience playing WoW, certainly not later in the game (never liked it for basically this reason).
Your concern is a common one I've seen from people who played a lot of it, and then moved on to games 'similar to' or 'trying to be equivalent to' WoW.
I think Ashes is moving to be a bit more like WoW, but they've specifically said that they would like to have dynamic gameplay and less reliance on rotations at some point. Even if Steven uses that term.
However, this might have changed recently with the shifts in the development team, but you can always ask for a reaffirmation in the next Q&A.
I realize this is an old problem. Back in vanilla WoW all warlocks did with their extensive kits was spam doombolts, but I don't think the solution to the problem was making spamming doombolts take 10 buttons instead of one.
Do you have any ideas on that? Cause unless I missed it, I haven't seen a suggestion as to how to fix this. You provided a few things that you don't quite see as "rotations", but you didn't give an example of how those abilities would work in a raid/pvp environment. Or at least how they'd be any different from just doing a boss mechanic while managing your 20 rotating buttons.
If you are in a raid as DPS, your only job is to deal as much damage as you can.
No one wants you to make any decisions other than those that pertain to your damage output. The more players present, the more focused your specific role is.
Yes. And that's a problem. A problem that shouldn't be actively encouraged and even pandered to by the dev team. The dev team should seek to break that attitude if anything.
dps dps, healers heal, tanks tank everybody has their role.
i get what u mean but it was probs not expressed the right way.
i think what you mean is instead of presing 123,123,123 then 4 u want something like 111,111,111 then 4 and 2 and 3 to be skills that can still do damage but in a more creative way, or maybe reactive skills etc
If you are in a raid as DPS, your only job is to deal as much damage as you can.
No one wants you to make any decisions other than those that pertain to your damage output. The more players present, the more focused your specific role is.
Yes. And that's a problem. A problem that shouldn't be actively encouraged and even pandered to by the dev team. The dev team should seek to break that attitude if anything.
I am aware that it is what you see as the problem, however, it is not the problem.
The problem is you wanting to take part in large scale content (in terms of player numbers), but not understanding that the more players that are present, the narrower in scope the role of each player becomes.
This isn't an issue with MMO's, or with games, it is just a fact of scaling. The larger anything gets, the more focused each part of it becomes.
If you are not content with being a small cog in a large machine, stick to smaller machines.
It's actually fine to have only 1-4 basic "do damage" buttons, for instance.
Only slightly related, but still relevant.
Highly specific abilities? Or widely generic abilities?
Personally, I am all for having (at least a few) abilties that are highly situational and specific in their usage.
The good old MMO's had a wide selection of out-of-combat utility abilities, highly situational abilities, and some even had outright bad abilities, where it required some knowledge on the player to avoid those.
Bad abilities will be meta-ed out these days of course, but playing on the players wits and knowledge is good design in my book. And I totally agree with you on avoiding the silly Simon says design.
Tanks are free from the curse of trying to move other people's HP bars. They get to move NPC's threat bars, even if they can't always see it!
But more seriously, skills which synergise with, and react to, other player's actions, seem to be the solution to the 'problem' of pressing N number of keys in the same sequence to move HP bars. And AoC has this as demo'd in the streams. This together with class resources (conviction etc) seems to provide adequate relief to the rotation bound class, IMO.
But some people love min/maxing and hitting the perfect rotation, a single target bursty thief for example. So each to their own.
Saying press the attack key to deal damage is like saying ski downhill to win the race. What matters is how the turns, ruts, flags, etc are handled.
If mob/boss/raidboss encounters are built like a smooth hill with no obstacles or gates, yeah then it's just press 1,1,1,1,1,1,1 (or 1,2,3,4,5,6) and you're at the bottom of the hill as fast as possible.
Rotations can be pretty difficult to pull off even in a target dummy situation (multiple DoTs, cooldowns, buff timers, etc). Some people like that difficulty.
Me, I'd prefer difficult mechanics, reactive abilities, etc than an overly complicated damage rotation as that is closer to mimicking PvP. Snare this, dodge that, target swap and burst, etc.
I realize this is an old problem. Back in vanilla WoW all warlocks did with their extensive kits was spam doombolts, but I don't think the solution to the problem was making spamming doombolts take 10 buttons instead of one.
Do you have any ideas on that? Cause unless I missed it, I haven't seen a suggestion as to how to fix this. You provided a few things that you don't quite see as "rotations", but you didn't give an example of how those abilities would work in a raid/pvp environment. Or at least how they'd be any different from just doing a boss mechanic while managing your 20 rotating buttons.
First, you could have abilities that are more situational. You can make resource management a thing again. Rotations only really work in conditions of basically unlimited resources so all you have to keep track of is cast times, cooldowns and durations.
Also, this already exists to an extent in Ashes, doesn't it? Clerics aren't expected to only heal, we already see that they need to do damage as a part of their mana regeneration and possibly to gain stacks of conviction as a core mechanic. I don't see why this can't be the other way around and DPS can't be expected to have some kind of side support role.
First, you could have abilities that are more situational. You can make resource management a thing again. Rotations only really work in conditions of basically unlimited resources so all you have to keep track of is cast times, cooldowns and durations.
I see, so that just sounds like a shitty game and I definitely hope Ashes is not shitty. I consider resource management and tool variety as a given. Guess that's not the reality in other mmos.
Also, this already exists to an extent in Ashes, doesn't it? Clerics aren't expected to only heal, we already see that they need to do damage as a part of their mana regeneration and possibly to gain stacks of conviction as a core mechanic. I don't see why this can't be the other way around and DPS can't be expected to have some kind of side support role.
Mainly because that "support role" comes in the way of avoiding boss mechanics, which in turn help healers not waste more mana, which then helps those healers also do some dps.
And obviously we'll have class augments, which will give us the exact secondary role that you're talking about. Except it will have no real impact on the "rotation" side of things, because classes won't give you new abilities, so you'll still be going through your main stuff.
From what has been shown, you can choose the path of having more abilities. OR choosing to strengthen a smaller amount of abilities making them more impactful. So this may mean choosing 6 or 7 abilities that you continue to buff via adding points to them... or having 15 abilities, that are not as powerful since you did not allocate additional points into that ability.
Maybe I'm just being extra smooth brain today, but I can't really think of an RPG with active skills that wouldn't boil down to some type of rotation.
That mentally of an ability priority could always be applied.
This woman that one apply a dot and a debuff so I always want to keep those active... This other ability generates a resource that I can use with this final ability for big damage so I'm going to use them in that order... That organization to your gameplay is just called a rotation.
Ashes looks like it's trying to break that up with it's action combat instead of traditional auto attacks as filler. Which to me that hack and slash approach is the only kind of combat that isn't an organized rotation.
I kind of like it's current blend and want to play around with it.
Maybe I'm just being extra smooth brain today, but I can't really think of an RPG with active skills that wouldn't boil down to some type of rotation.
The only way I can imagine it happening is the only way I have seen it not happen.
A rotation is simply a pre-defined order to cast abilities for the best result. It takes in to account cast times, and cooldowns, as well as the effects of abilities. Recasting a DoT on a target before the previous cast of the same DoT has expired is obviously a waste of cast time that could be used on other things, with that DoT being recast later on. Same with debuffs - there is no need to reapply a debuff before the previous cast of it has expired.
Cooldowns also have a similar kind of thing going on. You obviously can't cast an ability before it's cooldown has completed. Likewise, you generally can't cast an ability while you are casting a different ability.
All of these things go towards what a rotation is - maximizing your time. I know I didn't need to go in to this detail for you, but it helps illustrate the following point.
With the above in mind, all you need to do to get away from rotations is to have some instances where time based things can change.
If you have an ability that usually has a 3 minute cooldown, and you go around with a rotation that is based on that ability having that 3 minute cooldown, what are you going to do if on one cast of that ability, the cooldown is only 90 seconds? Same with your ability with a cooldown of 45 seconds - what if it had a cooldown of only 23 seconds for one cast?
More to the point, what if you didn't actually know which cast of the abilities above would have the shorter cooldown? On any given fight it could be one, the other, both or none - or some other ability all together.
All of a sudden, the concept of rotations falls apart. You can have a base rotation that you start a fight off with, but before long (usually about 10 - 12 seconds, as the above is a description of my class from EQ2), you have to go off script and just know what to do.
Maybe I'm just being extra smooth brain today, but I can't really think of an RPG with active skills that wouldn't boil down to some type of rotation.
The only way I can imagine it happening is the only way I have seen it not happen.
A rotation is simply a pre-defined order to cast abilities for the best result. It takes in to account cast times, and cooldowns, as well as the effects of abilities. Recasting a DoT on a target before the previous cast of the same DoT has expired is obviously a waste of cast time that could be used on other things, with that DoT being recast later on. Same with debuffs - there is no need to reapply a debuff before the previous cast of it has expired.
Cooldowns also have a similar kind of thing going on. You obviously can't cast an ability before it's cooldown has completed. Likewise, you generally can't cast an ability while you are casting a different ability.
All of these things go towards what a rotation is - maximizing your time. I know I didn't need to go in to this detail for you, but it helps illustrate the following point.
With the above in mind, all you need to do to get away from rotations is to have some instances where time based things can change.
If you have an ability that usually has a 3 minute cooldown, and you go around with a rotation that is based on that ability having that 3 minute cooldown, what are you going to do if on one cast of that ability, the cooldown is only 90 seconds? Same with your ability with a cooldown of 45 seconds - what if it had a cooldown of only 23 seconds for one cast?
More to the point, what if you didn't actually know which cast of the abilities above would have the shorter cooldown? On any given fight it could be one, the other, both or none - or some other ability all together.
All of a sudden, the concept of rotations falls apart. You can have a base rotation that you start a fight off with, but before long (usually about 10 - 12 seconds, as the above is a description of my class from EQ2), you have to go off script and just know what to do.
I think I see what you're saying... But most people don't calculate 'cooldowns' into base rotations. Any ability over 60 seconds is either for a boss fight or designed to be used once in a pull, usually at the beginning so it's ready by the next pull.
I'm mostly just referring to the core abilities any class uses with cooldowns less than 30 seconds, as those are the majority of any rotation.
As you said, you eventually go off script and just know, but that's just learning your class. What you 'know' is just getting you back to a known state, and the better a player is with their class the more efficiently/faster they can get back to that normal rotation. If a fight has something that interrupts the normal rotation by clearing your debuff, or applying one to you that you need to add a cleanse to your rotation, or having to work a kick in, whatever... Your new off the rails script is just trying to get you back to your normal order of operations.
I'll be honest I mostly tank so my rotations prioritize differently than max dmg output. So I could be off here, but I think they're close enough in mindset.
Maybe I'm just being extra smooth brain today, but I can't really think of an RPG with active skills that wouldn't boil down to some type of rotation.
The only way I can imagine it happening is the only way I have seen it not happen.
A rotation is simply a pre-defined order to cast abilities for the best result. It takes in to account cast times, and cooldowns, as well as the effects of abilities. Recasting a DoT on a target before the previous cast of the same DoT has expired is obviously a waste of cast time that could be used on other things, with that DoT being recast later on. Same with debuffs - there is no need to reapply a debuff before the previous cast of it has expired.
Cooldowns also have a similar kind of thing going on. You obviously can't cast an ability before it's cooldown has completed. Likewise, you generally can't cast an ability while you are casting a different ability.
All of these things go towards what a rotation is - maximizing your time. I know I didn't need to go in to this detail for you, but it helps illustrate the following point.
With the above in mind, all you need to do to get away from rotations is to have some instances where time based things can change.
If you have an ability that usually has a 3 minute cooldown, and you go around with a rotation that is based on that ability having that 3 minute cooldown, what are you going to do if on one cast of that ability, the cooldown is only 90 seconds? Same with your ability with a cooldown of 45 seconds - what if it had a cooldown of only 23 seconds for one cast?
More to the point, what if you didn't actually know which cast of the abilities above would have the shorter cooldown? On any given fight it could be one, the other, both or none - or some other ability all together.
All of a sudden, the concept of rotations falls apart. You can have a base rotation that you start a fight off with, but before long (usually about 10 - 12 seconds, as the above is a description of my class from EQ2), you have to go off script and just know what to do.
I think to closest we have to a base time variation in the current system is linked to the 'upgrading status" of certain skills, as was presented in the cleric showcase. We know some status will come from skills from other classes and that some will come from procs in the weapon tree.
Procs usually have a random element to them, that could make the perfect rotation harder to execute depending when the proc occurre and how long it last.
Group composition could also influence what is the best rotation in different scenarios. Some classes could also have to "compete" for the use of the initial status if they each have a skill that could upgrade it in a different path for the group synergy. Is it better to transform the stagger into a short stun or into a longer root effect? Only speculation, but that would be interesting. Organized groups would shine there.
There is also the possibility that the mob has resisted, or is immune, to the required initial status. And there goes that perfect rotation...
As the resident "I want people's gameplay to be influenced by other players" nerd, there's the simplest solution for rotations for pvp (which I'd love to see in pve as well).
Just have abilities that break up the stability of someone's rotation. As discussed above, rotations depend on timings and resources. Just give people abilities that reduce/increase mana usage (or other resources if they're added), reduce/increase CDs on physical or magical skills, put silences on either or both of those, swap CDs around between the last few abilities used (especially cool if there are in fact the big 60s++ cd abilities).
All of that stuff can be thrown into mob skillset as well, which would make pve not only more interesting, but also harder, especially if you put in some good situational triggers too.
As the resident "I want people's gameplay to be influenced by other players" nerd, there's the simplest solution for rotations for pvp (which I'd love to see in pve as well).
Just have abilities that break up the stability of someone's rotation. As discussed above, rotations depend on timings and resources. Just give people abilities that reduce/increase mana usage (or other resources if they're added), reduce/increase CDs on physical or magical skills, put silences on either or both of those, swap CDs around between the last few abilities used (especially cool if there are in fact the big 60s++ cd abilities).
All of that stuff can be thrown into mob skillset as well, which would make pve not only more interesting, but also harder, especially if you put in some good situational triggers too.
Ideas like this is what MMOs (or games in general) need to embrace. A chaotic system of this manner has the potential to allow for tons of player expression and/or discovery. Also...depending on how exactly it would be implemented may be able to mitigate some of the meta gaming around min/maxing? *shrug*
I think I see what you're saying... But most people don't calculate 'cooldowns' into base rotations. Any ability over 60 seconds is either for a boss fight or designed to be used once in a pull, usually at the beginning so it's ready by the next pull.
In a game like WoW, yeah.
In a game like EQ2, yeah they do.
If you have an ability with a 60 second cooldown and you aren't using it on literally every pull in a raid or group setting, what are you even doing? I mean, you should know if you are going to be fighting the boss in the next 60 seconds or not, and if you aren't there is literally no point in sitting on it.
If I was in a group in EQ2 and my wizard didnt cast Fusion (180 second cooldown) every 210 seconds or so, I'd ask them what was wrong.
I mean, I say "I would", but this literally never happened, not once.
EQ2 had abilities with 60 minute cooldowns that you may sit on waiting for a boss, but abilities with cooldowns under 5 minutes were used basically as soon as the cooldown came up - the boss fight would last long enough to use that ability multiple times anyway.
I think to closest we have to a base time variation in the current system is linked to the 'upgrading status" of certain skills, as was presented in the cleric showcase. We know some status will come from skills from other classes and that some will come from procs in the weapon tree.
Procs usually have a random element to them, that could make the perfect rotation harder to execute depending when the proc occurre and how long it last.
Group composition could also influence what is the best rotation in different scenarios. Some classes could also have to "compete" for the use of the initial status if they each have a skill that could upgrade it in a different path for the group synergy. Is it better to transform the stagger into a short stun or into a longer root effect? Only speculation, but that would be interesting. Organized groups would shine there.
There is also the possibility that the mob has resisted, or is immune, to the required initial status. And there goes that perfect rotation...
These are all basically spot on, and is kind of a high level overview of EQ2 combat.
In Ashes, we do indeed have variation in the two ability upgrade paths we have so far. What this means is that these things aren't hard coded in to the game (they are in some games, which is inexcusable imo). The thing with these though, is that they are all static. Once you have placed all your points, you simply come up with the rotation for the abilities you have on hand.
Item procs are a great way to dismantle the notion of rotations completely though. You could have the perfect rotation worked out, but as soon as a proc triggers making your biggest nuke cooldown expire instantly, that rotation is out the window and you are casting that nuke again.
While this happening once isn't that big of a deal, this kind of thing happening every 10 - 12 seconds in a fight really is.
The trick with things like this is to always make RNG add, not subtract.
Consider the implications of the following augment to the following spell.
Spell; Fireball. 2 second cast time, 50 second cooldown, second largest nuke in the game (no point in using numbers to illustrate damage as that varies too much - but most people understand the notion of the second biggest nuke in a game).
Augment; Spell Echo. When placed on Fireball, gives the Fireball spell a 20% chance to echo on itself after each cast. An echo is a window where the spell can be cast again, even while on cooldown. This window opens up 5 seconds after it is triggered, and is only open for 2 seconds.
This augment would mean that 5 seconds after casting this ability (when the cooldown is at 45 seconds), there is a 20% chance you can cast it again, dealing all that damage again.
With a 50 second cooldown, it is a spell that would be in your rotation (in a game that uses rotations). Since it does a large amount of damage, it is a spell you would want to cast as often as you can. if you have any abilities that can maximize this spell (an appropriate debuff to the mob, a self buff that can affect this spell etc) you would want to use them to maximize this spell. As such, this spell may require casting 3 or 4 abilities before using it, just to set it up as best you can.
Now imagine you are fighting a mob that sometimes has a forcefield making them immune to damage for a short period of time. This forcefield is predictable, and only lasts about 10 seconds.
You are in this fight, and this forcefield is coming up, but you have your fireball spell augmented with spell echo coming up. You can get that first cast off before the forcefield, but if that spell echo procs, the casting window it opens up will be right in the middle of the mobs forcefield.
Do you cast the ability now, or do you wait until after said forcefield?
If you opt to not cast that fireball spell before the forcefield, you then have to scramble to find something else worthwhile casting. If you do cast it now and the echo effect does proc, you miss out on all that additional damage. If you opt to hold off casting fireball, is it worth using the abilities you would have used to set it up? Will they be ready to be used again by the time you want to cast your fireball?
All of a sudden, with just that one augment on just one ability (not including any other abilities that could have some randomization to them, any gear procs, or any effects from other players), you have been placed in a situation where you need to work through a number of different options, rather than just attempting to repeat some rotation over and over again.
I think I see what you're saying... But most people don't calculate 'cooldowns' into base rotations. Any ability over 60 seconds is either for a boss fight or designed to be used once in a pull, usually at the beginning so it's ready by the next pull.
In a game like WoW, yeah.
In a game like EQ2, yeah they do.
If you have an ability with a 60 second cooldown and you aren't using it on literally every pull in a raid or group setting, what are you even doing? I mean, you should know if you are going to be fighting the boss in the next 60 seconds or not, and if you aren't there is literally no point in sitting on it.
If I was in a group in EQ2 and my wizard didnt cast Fusion (180 second cooldown) every 210 seconds or so, I'd ask them what was wrong.
I mean, I say "I would", but this literally never happened, not once.
EQ2 had abilities with 60 minute cooldowns that you may sit on waiting for a boss, but abilities with cooldowns under 5 minutes were used basically as soon as the cooldown came up - the boss fight would last long enough to use that ability multiple times anyway.
Ok
But that still falls into a rotation
Use X when off cooldown
You're just making wow sound like it has better dungeon pacing than EQ2
Ok
But that still falls into a rotation
Use X when off cooldown
Well, by definition, that is already not a rotation.
However, you seemed to have missed the point. It isn't *one* ability that is like this, it is all abilities - at least to a degree.
As to dungeon pacing in EQ2 vs WoW, I'm somewhat interested to hear what it is you think I have said that leads you to believe there is better pacing in WoW.
Keep in mind that I am talking about raid content, not group content. No one in either game really cares about group content in my experience, as it tends to be set to kill itself automatically anyway (obviously not literally, but it is dead easy and so may as well).
WoW has a good number of raids that last long enough to use abilities with 5 minute cooldowns multiple times - hence me not really understanding your conclusion here.
Ok
But that still falls into a rotation
Use X when off cooldown
Well, by definition, that is already not a rotation.
However, you seemed to have missed the point. It isn't *one* ability that is like this, it is all abilities - at least to a degree.
As to dungeon pacing in EQ2 vs WoW, I'm somewhat interested to hear what it is you think I have said that leads you to believe there is better pacing in WoW.
Keep in mind that I am talking about raid content, not group content. No one in either game really cares about group content in my experience, as it tends to be set to kill itself automatically anyway (obviously not literally, but it is dead easy and so may as well).
WoW has a good number of raids that last long enough to use abilities with 5 minute cooldowns multiple times - hence me not really understanding your conclusion here.
What in the world does rotation mean to you then?
It doesn't mean a literal rotation of just hit 1,2,3,1,2,3...
It's a priority listing of what to use first or when available so saying use X when available to me would be the exact example of a set rotation mindset not "by definition not a rotation"... What definition are you going off of here?
Ok
But that still falls into a rotation
Use X when off cooldown
Well, by definition, that is already not a rotation.
However, you seemed to have missed the point. It isn't *one* ability that is like this, it is all abilities - at least to a degree.
As to dungeon pacing in EQ2 vs WoW, I'm somewhat interested to hear what it is you think I have said that leads you to believe there is better pacing in WoW.
Keep in mind that I am talking about raid content, not group content. No one in either game really cares about group content in my experience, as it tends to be set to kill itself automatically anyway (obviously not literally, but it is dead easy and so may as well).
WoW has a good number of raids that last long enough to use abilities with 5 minute cooldowns multiple times - hence me not really understanding your conclusion here.
What in the world does rotation mean to you then?
It doesn't mean a literal rotation of just hit 1,2,3,1,2,3...
It's a priority listing of what to use first or when available so saying use X when available to me would be the exact example of a set rotation mindset not "by definition not a rotation"... What definition are you going off of here?
A rotation is just that - a rotation.
The clue is very much in the name.
A priority system is not a rotation.
And yes, some games have rotations that are even more simple tha your above "example".
However, you are somewhat mistaken in assuming what I have described is best played by just casting the biggest thing you have up. As I have explained a few times, there are times (most of the time, to be honest) where you need to think and consider what to cast.
If you have an ability that debuffs the target of the damage type of a big hitting ability you have, you may well want to hold that big ability back in order to ensure that debuff is applied. Or you may have a self buff that increases the damage of that big hitter. Or you may have multiple of both. Or you may be expecting a short term buff from a friend in the next few seconds that changes some other aspect of that big hitting ability.
All three of these things alter the paradigm of "just cast it when it is up" that you are thinking about. There were absolutely times when the best thing for you to do was to sit on your biggest hitting abilities for a while.
Let's not forget that this same class also has a single massive hitting ability that drains all of your mana. If you play by the mantra of "just cast it when it is up", that is going to go fairly badly for you.
I'm going to back to EQ2 for a minute, since it is the only example of this kind of game I know.
I spent some time raiding with a few other players of my class. One in particular played a set rotation (ex WoW player). He devised his rotation, and he stuck to it. And he sucked.
His output was about 60% of what it should have been.
Another player did what you seem to be talking about here. He just cast his biggest hitters as they came off cooldown. His output was about 85% of what it should have been. Better than the above player, good enough to keep his spot in the guild, but never going to be competing for top spot.
In order to play the class to it's full potential, you had to consider every ability, because of everything I have talked about above (and a few things I have not), and the interplay between all of those things.
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No, those were a list of actual mechanics, not things meant to break up the rotation meta. The way to break up the rotation meta is simply what I said. Don't have 10 abilities that all do the same basic thing. If you don't have 50 "deal single target damage" abilities, you have no room for rotations. Keep maybe 1-4 same-case abilities and you have no room for rotation gameplay. Rotation gameplay has to be more or less intentionally implemented by overloading the ability bar with an unnecessary of abilities that do the same basic thing, often withing the context of not having to really worry about mana or resource management so the "game" ends up getting boiled down to what order you press them in to get optimal outcomes. In my opinion, this is just spamming with style.
Except unless those 4 same-case abilities have the exact same dmg and the exact same cd and the exact same effect - they'll be on a rotation to maximize their usefulness. One of them is a second longer in cd? Use it first so that it comes back by the time you've finished using the other 3. One of them uses a bit less mana? Use it last so that if your mana get's burned you might still be able to use it. And so on and so on.
Literally anything will be put into a rotation, as long as there's any kind of variance in the abilities. You either have a game with literally a single dmg ability, a single defense ability and a single heal - or you have rotations.
The quantity of those abilities does the exact opposite of what you're saying. It makes people strategize about the best use of their abilities and their mana and the cds and everything that might be involved in combat. Obviously there'll be people who just copy someone else's rotation, but that's not the game's problem.
In Ashes of Creation - abilties should not really be "on rotation".
Combat should not simply be about how I can maximize my damage one-vs-one with the enemies.
In Ashes, we should be paying attention to what our group members are doing so that we can use our augments to stack the effects our mates are using moment to moment.
There should be at least a couple of abilities on our hotbar that are outside of our " cooldown rotations" that we save for acts of opportunity when a groupmate triggers an effect that we can stack.
In an RPG, rotations are a shitty reaction to poor game design.
In any multiplayer RPG, the optimal way to play should be for players to synergize their abilities maximize the strengths and shore up the weaknesses of their groupmates.
Rather than simply navel-gazing their own "rotations".
But, yes - gamers are going to try to game the system to be META, rather than actually role play.
In an RPG, rotations are a shitty reaction to poor game design.
In any multiplayer RPG, the optimal way to play should be for players to synergize their abilities maximize the strengths and shore up the weaknesses of their groupmates.
Rather than simply navel-gazing their own "rotations".
Yeah, we definitely agree on this. Though there can definitely be group/raid-sized rotations, because you should be working as a single unit and the game should allow you to do that and some content should encourage that kind of lvl of coordination.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited March 2023
It still should not be strictly rotation-based.
Especially because dungeon and raid NPCs and mobs change significantly session to session, rather than remaining static every time you return.
Which means everyone has to be aware of how strategies and tactics change session to session.
Of course - Intrepid has to actually implement that design goal... which remains to be seen at the 6-year mark.
Ok
But that still falls into a rotation
Use X when off cooldown
Well, by definition, that is already not a rotation.
However, you seemed to have missed the point. It isn't *one* ability that is like this, it is all abilities - at least to a degree.
As to dungeon pacing in EQ2 vs WoW, I'm somewhat interested to hear what it is you think I have said that leads you to believe there is better pacing in WoW.
Keep in mind that I am talking about raid content, not group content. No one in either game really cares about group content in my experience, as it tends to be set to kill itself automatically anyway (obviously not literally, but it is dead easy and so may as well).
WoW has a good number of raids that last long enough to use abilities with 5 minute cooldowns multiple times - hence me not really understanding your conclusion here.
What in the world does rotation mean to you then?
It doesn't mean a literal rotation of just hit 1,2,3,1,2,3...
It's a priority listing of what to use first or when available so saying use X when available to me would be the exact example of a set rotation mindset not "by definition not a rotation"... What definition are you going off of here?
A rotation is just that - a rotation.
The clue is very much in the name.
A priority system is not a rotation.
And yes, some games have rotations that are even more simple tha your above "example".
However, you are somewhat mistaken in assuming what I have described is best played by just casting the biggest thing you have up. As I have explained a few times, there are times (most of the time, to be honest) where you need to think and consider what to cast.
If you have an ability that debuffs the target of the damage type of a big hitting ability you have, you may well want to hold that big ability back in order to ensure that debuff is applied. Or you may have a self buff that increases the damage of that big hitter. Or you may have multiple of both. Or you may be expecting a short term buff from a friend in the next few seconds that changes some other aspect of that big hitting ability.
All three of these things alter the paradigm of "just cast it when it is up" that you are thinking about. There were absolutely times when the best thing for you to do was to sit on your biggest hitting abilities for a while.
Let's not forget that this same class also has a single massive hitting ability that drains all of your mana. If you play by the mantra of "just cast it when it is up", that is going to go fairly badly for you.
I'm going to back to EQ2 for a minute, since it is the only example of this kind of game I know.
I spent some time raiding with a few other players of my class. One in particular played a set rotation (ex WoW player). He devised his rotation, and he stuck to it. And he sucked.
His output was about 60% of what it should have been.
Another player did what you seem to be talking about here. He just cast his biggest hitters as they came off cooldown. His output was about 85% of what it should have been. Better than the above player, good enough to keep his spot in the guild, but never going to be competing for top spot.
In order to play the class to it's full potential, you had to consider every ability, because of everything I have talked about above (and a few things I have not), and the interplay between all of those things.
Ok so that's where our difference is, semantics.
You take rotation as literal... That's kinda weird dude.
Pop over to wowhead or something for a guide on a class for any major MMOs and they use the term rotation more as a priority organization for skills... Not a literal lock step rotation...
And yes of course some abilities are class mechanic based, or scenario based for the content... And they go over stuff like that on the ROTATION page on wowhead...
But what you're describing is just the difference between a good experienced player and someone new to a class. Rotations in general I would describe as the training wheels for learning the class, how to use it's abilities together, it's resources, etc... And the more you learn the ins and outs of a class the more you can flex with it
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I don't personally have much experience playing WoW, certainly not later in the game (never liked it for basically this reason).
Your concern is a common one I've seen from people who played a lot of it, and then moved on to games 'similar to' or 'trying to be equivalent to' WoW.
I think Ashes is moving to be a bit more like WoW, but they've specifically said that they would like to have dynamic gameplay and less reliance on rotations at some point. Even if Steven uses that term.
However, this might have changed recently with the shifts in the development team, but you can always ask for a reaffirmation in the next Q&A.
dps dps, healers heal, tanks tank
i get what u mean but it was probs not expressed the right way.
i think what you mean is instead of presing 123,123,123 then 4 u want something like 111,111,111 then 4 and 2 and 3 to be skills that can still do damage but in a more creative way, or maybe reactive skills etc
I am aware that it is what you see as the problem, however, it is not the problem.
The problem is you wanting to take part in large scale content (in terms of player numbers), but not understanding that the more players that are present, the narrower in scope the role of each player becomes.
This isn't an issue with MMO's, or with games, it is just a fact of scaling. The larger anything gets, the more focused each part of it becomes.
If you are not content with being a small cog in a large machine, stick to smaller machines.
Only slightly related, but still relevant.
Highly specific abilities? Or widely generic abilities?
Personally, I am all for having (at least a few) abilties that are highly situational and specific in their usage.
The good old MMO's had a wide selection of out-of-combat utility abilities, highly situational abilities, and some even had outright bad abilities, where it required some knowledge on the player to avoid those.
Bad abilities will be meta-ed out these days of course, but playing on the players wits and knowledge is good design in my book. And I totally agree with you on avoiding the silly Simon says design.
But more seriously, skills which synergise with, and react to, other player's actions, seem to be the solution to the 'problem' of pressing N number of keys in the same sequence to move HP bars. And AoC has this as demo'd in the streams. This together with class resources (conviction etc) seems to provide adequate relief to the rotation bound class, IMO.
But some people love min/maxing and hitting the perfect rotation, a single target bursty thief for example. So each to their own.
If mob/boss/raidboss encounters are built like a smooth hill with no obstacles or gates, yeah then it's just press 1,1,1,1,1,1,1 (or 1,2,3,4,5,6) and you're at the bottom of the hill as fast as possible.
Rotations can be pretty difficult to pull off even in a target dummy situation (multiple DoTs, cooldowns, buff timers, etc). Some people like that difficulty.
Me, I'd prefer difficult mechanics, reactive abilities, etc than an overly complicated damage rotation as that is closer to mimicking PvP. Snare this, dodge that, target swap and burst, etc.
but if your rotation has buffs and debuffs in your build, then you gotta make decisions and this makes the rotation interesting
I find increasing the variables of the decision making usually makes for very interesting skills, I liked TERA in that manner.
Not only were there some interesting skills, but a lot more mattered into using them well.
First, you could have abilities that are more situational. You can make resource management a thing again. Rotations only really work in conditions of basically unlimited resources so all you have to keep track of is cast times, cooldowns and durations.
Also, this already exists to an extent in Ashes, doesn't it? Clerics aren't expected to only heal, we already see that they need to do damage as a part of their mana regeneration and possibly to gain stacks of conviction as a core mechanic. I don't see why this can't be the other way around and DPS can't be expected to have some kind of side support role.
Mainly because that "support role" comes in the way of avoiding boss mechanics, which in turn help healers not waste more mana, which then helps those healers also do some dps.
And obviously we'll have class augments, which will give us the exact secondary role that you're talking about. Except it will have no real impact on the "rotation" side of things, because classes won't give you new abilities, so you'll still be going through your main stuff.
That mentally of an ability priority could always be applied.
This woman that one apply a dot and a debuff so I always want to keep those active... This other ability generates a resource that I can use with this final ability for big damage so I'm going to use them in that order... That organization to your gameplay is just called a rotation.
Ashes looks like it's trying to break that up with it's action combat instead of traditional auto attacks as filler. Which to me that hack and slash approach is the only kind of combat that isn't an organized rotation.
I kind of like it's current blend and want to play around with it.
And yeah, as long as there's literally any kind of variance in abilities - there's gonna be rotations, because it's the most optimal way to play.
A rotation is simply a pre-defined order to cast abilities for the best result. It takes in to account cast times, and cooldowns, as well as the effects of abilities. Recasting a DoT on a target before the previous cast of the same DoT has expired is obviously a waste of cast time that could be used on other things, with that DoT being recast later on. Same with debuffs - there is no need to reapply a debuff before the previous cast of it has expired.
Cooldowns also have a similar kind of thing going on. You obviously can't cast an ability before it's cooldown has completed. Likewise, you generally can't cast an ability while you are casting a different ability.
All of these things go towards what a rotation is - maximizing your time. I know I didn't need to go in to this detail for you, but it helps illustrate the following point.
With the above in mind, all you need to do to get away from rotations is to have some instances where time based things can change.
If you have an ability that usually has a 3 minute cooldown, and you go around with a rotation that is based on that ability having that 3 minute cooldown, what are you going to do if on one cast of that ability, the cooldown is only 90 seconds? Same with your ability with a cooldown of 45 seconds - what if it had a cooldown of only 23 seconds for one cast?
More to the point, what if you didn't actually know which cast of the abilities above would have the shorter cooldown? On any given fight it could be one, the other, both or none - or some other ability all together.
All of a sudden, the concept of rotations falls apart. You can have a base rotation that you start a fight off with, but before long (usually about 10 - 12 seconds, as the above is a description of my class from EQ2), you have to go off script and just know what to do.
I think I see what you're saying... But most people don't calculate 'cooldowns' into base rotations. Any ability over 60 seconds is either for a boss fight or designed to be used once in a pull, usually at the beginning so it's ready by the next pull.
I'm mostly just referring to the core abilities any class uses with cooldowns less than 30 seconds, as those are the majority of any rotation.
As you said, you eventually go off script and just know, but that's just learning your class. What you 'know' is just getting you back to a known state, and the better a player is with their class the more efficiently/faster they can get back to that normal rotation. If a fight has something that interrupts the normal rotation by clearing your debuff, or applying one to you that you need to add a cleanse to your rotation, or having to work a kick in, whatever... Your new off the rails script is just trying to get you back to your normal order of operations.
I'll be honest I mostly tank so my rotations prioritize differently than max dmg output. So I could be off here, but I think they're close enough in mindset.
I think to closest we have to a base time variation in the current system is linked to the 'upgrading status" of certain skills, as was presented in the cleric showcase. We know some status will come from skills from other classes and that some will come from procs in the weapon tree.
Procs usually have a random element to them, that could make the perfect rotation harder to execute depending when the proc occurre and how long it last.
Group composition could also influence what is the best rotation in different scenarios. Some classes could also have to "compete" for the use of the initial status if they each have a skill that could upgrade it in a different path for the group synergy. Is it better to transform the stagger into a short stun or into a longer root effect? Only speculation, but that would be interesting. Organized groups would shine there.
There is also the possibility that the mob has resisted, or is immune, to the required initial status. And there goes that perfect rotation...
Just have abilities that break up the stability of someone's rotation. As discussed above, rotations depend on timings and resources. Just give people abilities that reduce/increase mana usage (or other resources if they're added), reduce/increase CDs on physical or magical skills, put silences on either or both of those, swap CDs around between the last few abilities used (especially cool if there are in fact the big 60s++ cd abilities).
All of that stuff can be thrown into mob skillset as well, which would make pve not only more interesting, but also harder, especially if you put in some good situational triggers too.
Ideas like this is what MMOs (or games in general) need to embrace. A chaotic system of this manner has the potential to allow for tons of player expression and/or discovery. Also...depending on how exactly it would be implemented may be able to mitigate some of the meta gaming around min/maxing? *shrug*
In a game like WoW, yeah.
In a game like EQ2, yeah they do.
If you have an ability with a 60 second cooldown and you aren't using it on literally every pull in a raid or group setting, what are you even doing? I mean, you should know if you are going to be fighting the boss in the next 60 seconds or not, and if you aren't there is literally no point in sitting on it.
If I was in a group in EQ2 and my wizard didnt cast Fusion (180 second cooldown) every 210 seconds or so, I'd ask them what was wrong.
I mean, I say "I would", but this literally never happened, not once.
EQ2 had abilities with 60 minute cooldowns that you may sit on waiting for a boss, but abilities with cooldowns under 5 minutes were used basically as soon as the cooldown came up - the boss fight would last long enough to use that ability multiple times anyway.
These are all basically spot on, and is kind of a high level overview of EQ2 combat.
In Ashes, we do indeed have variation in the two ability upgrade paths we have so far. What this means is that these things aren't hard coded in to the game (they are in some games, which is inexcusable imo). The thing with these though, is that they are all static. Once you have placed all your points, you simply come up with the rotation for the abilities you have on hand.
Item procs are a great way to dismantle the notion of rotations completely though. You could have the perfect rotation worked out, but as soon as a proc triggers making your biggest nuke cooldown expire instantly, that rotation is out the window and you are casting that nuke again.
While this happening once isn't that big of a deal, this kind of thing happening every 10 - 12 seconds in a fight really is.
The trick with things like this is to always make RNG add, not subtract.
Consider the implications of the following augment to the following spell.
Spell; Fireball. 2 second cast time, 50 second cooldown, second largest nuke in the game (no point in using numbers to illustrate damage as that varies too much - but most people understand the notion of the second biggest nuke in a game).
Augment; Spell Echo. When placed on Fireball, gives the Fireball spell a 20% chance to echo on itself after each cast. An echo is a window where the spell can be cast again, even while on cooldown. This window opens up 5 seconds after it is triggered, and is only open for 2 seconds.
This augment would mean that 5 seconds after casting this ability (when the cooldown is at 45 seconds), there is a 20% chance you can cast it again, dealing all that damage again.
With a 50 second cooldown, it is a spell that would be in your rotation (in a game that uses rotations). Since it does a large amount of damage, it is a spell you would want to cast as often as you can. if you have any abilities that can maximize this spell (an appropriate debuff to the mob, a self buff that can affect this spell etc) you would want to use them to maximize this spell. As such, this spell may require casting 3 or 4 abilities before using it, just to set it up as best you can.
Now imagine you are fighting a mob that sometimes has a forcefield making them immune to damage for a short period of time. This forcefield is predictable, and only lasts about 10 seconds.
You are in this fight, and this forcefield is coming up, but you have your fireball spell augmented with spell echo coming up. You can get that first cast off before the forcefield, but if that spell echo procs, the casting window it opens up will be right in the middle of the mobs forcefield.
Do you cast the ability now, or do you wait until after said forcefield?
If you opt to not cast that fireball spell before the forcefield, you then have to scramble to find something else worthwhile casting. If you do cast it now and the echo effect does proc, you miss out on all that additional damage. If you opt to hold off casting fireball, is it worth using the abilities you would have used to set it up? Will they be ready to be used again by the time you want to cast your fireball?
All of a sudden, with just that one augment on just one ability (not including any other abilities that could have some randomization to them, any gear procs, or any effects from other players), you have been placed in a situation where you need to work through a number of different options, rather than just attempting to repeat some rotation over and over again.
Ok
But that still falls into a rotation
Use X when off cooldown
You're just making wow sound like it has better dungeon pacing than EQ2
However, you seemed to have missed the point. It isn't *one* ability that is like this, it is all abilities - at least to a degree.
As to dungeon pacing in EQ2 vs WoW, I'm somewhat interested to hear what it is you think I have said that leads you to believe there is better pacing in WoW.
Keep in mind that I am talking about raid content, not group content. No one in either game really cares about group content in my experience, as it tends to be set to kill itself automatically anyway (obviously not literally, but it is dead easy and so may as well).
WoW has a good number of raids that last long enough to use abilities with 5 minute cooldowns multiple times - hence me not really understanding your conclusion here.
What in the world does rotation mean to you then?
It doesn't mean a literal rotation of just hit 1,2,3,1,2,3...
It's a priority listing of what to use first or when available so saying use X when available to me would be the exact example of a set rotation mindset not "by definition not a rotation"... What definition are you going off of here?
A rotation is just that - a rotation.
The clue is very much in the name.
A priority system is not a rotation.
And yes, some games have rotations that are even more simple tha your above "example".
However, you are somewhat mistaken in assuming what I have described is best played by just casting the biggest thing you have up. As I have explained a few times, there are times (most of the time, to be honest) where you need to think and consider what to cast.
If you have an ability that debuffs the target of the damage type of a big hitting ability you have, you may well want to hold that big ability back in order to ensure that debuff is applied. Or you may have a self buff that increases the damage of that big hitter. Or you may have multiple of both. Or you may be expecting a short term buff from a friend in the next few seconds that changes some other aspect of that big hitting ability.
All three of these things alter the paradigm of "just cast it when it is up" that you are thinking about. There were absolutely times when the best thing for you to do was to sit on your biggest hitting abilities for a while.
Let's not forget that this same class also has a single massive hitting ability that drains all of your mana. If you play by the mantra of "just cast it when it is up", that is going to go fairly badly for you.
I'm going to back to EQ2 for a minute, since it is the only example of this kind of game I know.
I spent some time raiding with a few other players of my class. One in particular played a set rotation (ex WoW player). He devised his rotation, and he stuck to it. And he sucked.
His output was about 60% of what it should have been.
Another player did what you seem to be talking about here. He just cast his biggest hitters as they came off cooldown. His output was about 85% of what it should have been. Better than the above player, good enough to keep his spot in the guild, but never going to be competing for top spot.
In order to play the class to it's full potential, you had to consider every ability, because of everything I have talked about above (and a few things I have not), and the interplay between all of those things.
Combat should not simply be about how I can maximize my damage one-vs-one with the enemies.
In Ashes, we should be paying attention to what our group members are doing so that we can use our augments to stack the effects our mates are using moment to moment.
There should be at least a couple of abilities on our hotbar that are outside of our " cooldown rotations" that we save for acts of opportunity when a groupmate triggers an effect that we can stack.
In an RPG, rotations are a shitty reaction to poor game design.
In any multiplayer RPG, the optimal way to play should be for players to synergize their abilities maximize the strengths and shore up the weaknesses of their groupmates.
Rather than simply navel-gazing their own "rotations".
But, yes - gamers are going to try to game the system to be META, rather than actually role play.
Especially because dungeon and raid NPCs and mobs change significantly session to session, rather than remaining static every time you return.
Which means everyone has to be aware of how strategies and tactics change session to session.
Of course - Intrepid has to actually implement that design goal... which remains to be seen at the 6-year mark.
Ok so that's where our difference is, semantics.
You take rotation as literal... That's kinda weird dude.
Pop over to wowhead or something for a guide on a class for any major MMOs and they use the term rotation more as a priority organization for skills... Not a literal lock step rotation...
And yes of course some abilities are class mechanic based, or scenario based for the content... And they go over stuff like that on the ROTATION page on wowhead...
But what you're describing is just the difference between a good experienced player and someone new to a class. Rotations in general I would describe as the training wheels for learning the class, how to use it's abilities together, it's resources, etc... And the more you learn the ins and outs of a class the more you can flex with it