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To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
a problem with auto attacks
Chicago
Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
i've been re watching the streams of the basic weapon animations, i tend to like the direction its going towards, i know there is alot to improve on however one concern i have is the weapon attacks are so fast just auto attacking that it seems to be a dps loss to even bother using your abilities, especially how the abilities seem to work at the moment many of the abilities are not instantaneous, i think this could be fixed by slowing down auto attacks or speeding up skills/spells
a good example is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FglW5YhugRY 1:03 - 1:08 in this video he looses a ton of dps just to use one ability, also i know this could be different with gear scaling etc but just throwing it out there
a good example is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FglW5YhugRY 1:03 - 1:08 in this video he looses a ton of dps just to use one ability, also i know this could be different with gear scaling etc but just throwing it out there 1
Comments
true true, hopefully we see some infomation about this soon
There has to be some kind of GCD between active spells, but as long as it doesn't have any impact on the action combat system I'd be okay with it.
Hopefully, the system will be like this: the last activated skill will keep looping if it's a skill that has auto-attack
Add to that the variety that could come with different CD/animation (de)buffs and you have yourself a really deep combat system, rather than "I hit this, everything is on cd so I have time to reposition and hit this, rinse repeat".
Ping will make those longer abilities unusable. When the server checks for the target being in range the person getting hit has more time to move even a hair out of the range check. This will make ping even more important for melee players as they have to physically be near the target.
A GCD allows for the server check to happen instantly because you are still locked out of any action for whatever the GCD time may be.
My guess is it's the reason cast times on abilities for online games have significantly decreased over the past two decades. Excluding Korea, people are just to far from data centers.
And backwards dodge could cost a bit more stamina (or mana, or whichever resource) than a sidestep, so that people trying to avoid all attacks by just dashing back would run out of stamina faster. This would also counterbalance mages a bit, because most projectiles would probably get sidestepped rather than backstepped, so melees will have a bit of an easier time fighting mages.
In what online games though? I'd assume stuff like MOBAs and fighting games rely the most on ping and neither of those have gcd afaik. With fighting games having their own approach to countering ping in the form of predictive inputs (or however they're called, the rollback(?) netcode thingy).
The difference is your magic is a range ability and by default you will be at range in a neutral state. The hitboxes for the actionmode will have to be forgiving for range players otherwise it'll be something no one uses. The scenario you mention of sidestepping mage abilities as you approach is completely nullified if the mage uses tab target. I was under the impression they removed melee abilities moving you by default when they switched to split body animations.
Intentionally dodging is good . Using a resource to dodge is good. But a high dodge chance being tied to holding strafe is a recipe for a melee range balance gap.
Mobas have different phases or quarters where a GCD isnt as needed. Part of the strategy in mobas is the differentials in power spikes and exploiting them to gain advantage. Mmos just don't have that same thing as every single pvp contest is always in the phase, assuming everyone is at level cap.
Not to mention it q
Yep an invisible cast timer for melee abilities renders most melee next to useless against any range class, also not to mention you can literally run and spam wand attack from 30 yards it will be almost impossible to connect, melee abilities need to be instant
Yes, they're separated, but you can move and use your abilities. Just look at the melee showcase, they were moving forward and hitting or moving sideward and hitting. And if we can move while doing the cast, then you can gain on your opponent during the cast itself. And judging by the current design, we seem to be able to do that.
Yeah, it'll obviously have to be a dodge mechanic rather than just stepping to the side. I should've been clearer about that.
I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean here. Just as everyone on the map in a moba can be top lvl with best items in super late game, everyone in an mmo can be at the top of their progress as well. And the other way around, just as mmos have different buffs that boost your dps output shortly - the same is true for mobas. And both games rely on tight movement, timings, rotations of abilities and item uses - all of which rely on ping. And I'd even argue that mobas are way faster than most mmos, but they don't have gcd.
Is it about server locations? Character density? Netcode? Something else?
But to me executing an attack in one place, then seeing my opponent move 10m but the attack still hitting is way worse than adjusting my attacks to their movement. The whole skillbar CDing is just the shitty cherry on top for me.
The tab abilities dodging wouldn't be a choice in that case it would just happen based on dice rolls. This is really advantageous for range as range can force melee to burn the dodges on approach without the melee players consent. The default will be to use low animation skills to burn dodges.
You won't gain on the other person by default. The chased target is choosing the direction you're going. Unless your pill is hardcoded stuck to the chased target, they will gain on you if there is any differential in ping or any environmental object. Combine this with burnt movement abilities on approach and you will have a range dominated game even moreso than the inherit advantage range has.
Everyone in a moba can theoretically get the same items and levels, but that never happens in a real game at least in dota. I'm talking about the scaling for certain characters. PA is next to useless for the first 20 mins, but after that time can be a powerhouse due to ability and stat scaling. Conversely undying is a level 1 no item monster. But after 20 mins is a glorified creep. The point is that no pa expects to be a god 2 mins into the game. Your animations, abilities, etc are all balanced around specific timing points in the game, and how well your team did or didn't do getting to those points.
In an mmo these timing points don't exist as mmo pvp doesn't work like a sports match. There aren't carries, or timing windows as everyone is at their "endgame" when the fight starts. And while there are some statistical and ability choice differences between players it's no where near as dramatic as a moba.
It's a long explanation about how exactly those things stack and roll back with the ping.
The other stuff you said is still right, and it is unlikely that many modern games will be moving forward with any form of GCD, as there are multiple implementations of both netcode and animation structures that allow this to work fine.
KingDDD is also right, but I'm not really sure I understand the point/relevance of the facts they provided either.
I saw no indications that Ashes would need a GCD because Ashes combat is slower in terms of engage options than most, so far. Maybe it will be a blitz later, but I don't think so, it seemed fine to me. What might happen though, is that people who aren't used to it get frustrated because they thought they reacted to something faster than they actually did, a common thing in the genres you are referring to.
If the goal is to give players long windows for reacting to things and good movement, the ping will matter a lot more.
I prefer a GCD to an animation lock.
In effect, they perform the same function. However, a GCD can be manipulated via mechanics (a passive to lower GCD by x% as an example).
While you technically could do this with an animation lock, you quickly run the risk of making your animation look quite silly.
After the initiation, it's just about dodging and overall movement of characters, which would stay true no matter the combat design. The only thing that would change is the general gameplay strategy, due to how the abilities work.
L2's magic attacks looked even cooler at super high cast speeds. Hell, some people even sacrificed some dmg buffs in favor of cast speeds, just to have a cool-looking attack
While gap closers act as a bandaid fix for initiations, if a melee character must rely on a gap closer to begin a fight they will always be at a disadvantage vs range. Range characters can still hold d to victory unless the gap closer has an extremely low cd.
If anything, an instant cast ability would allow that range player to instantly increase the gap, because the melee's abilities would be on gcd after using the gap closer. And if you give off-gcd mechanics to either the gap closer or some of the attacks - you're pretty much using what I'm suggesting except as a crutch for the system.
Oh you start adding slows from friends and cleanses from enemies and it goes out the window.
The GCD allows melee abilities to execute within a short (generally 1-1.5sec) window. In this timeframe ping, server tickrate, general server performance, etc are less susceptible to hickups than during a longer timeframes forced animations would have. This allows melee abilities to have a higher chance of success, and makes melee less susceptible to joys of being kited to death.
While mages would still have this GCD built in, cast times on mage abilities (or any other range except bow kids as the special snowflakes of mmos) are expected and part of playing a range class. The forced animation for them is less damaging as the check has a significantly more forgiving range to execute.
Trying to come up with many animations that look as good at 50%, 100% and 200% (as well as any point in between) is really not an easy feat.
The above all said, I am not keen on any game mechanic being tied to animation at all. Animation should exist only for aesthetic purposes.
There was activation distance and a bigger effect distance. If between the activation of an ability and the end of its animation the target ran outside of the effect distance - it wouldn't be damaged. Here's an example of a dagger ability
Super short cast distance, but quite a big effect range. Ashes should definitely have a smaller one, but I think it would still work just fine. The action part would apply to this as well.
Dodges could even decrease the effective range if used during the ability's cast. And you could balance melee abilities on their effective range, with longer casts having a more lenient range.
But MOBA have other weird things like animation cancels and auto resets... I'm not sure I want all of that in my MMO.
I think I've missed something here...