What is your P2W, Pay to Convenience definition

JeanPhilippeGunghar

Everyone has they own definition of pay-to-win and pay-to convenience. So, I decided to gather up mine to guide me in my future MMORPG playing. What’s your definition?

Pay to win: Exchange real money for an in-game advantage that makes you stronger than players that don’t spend a penny, including
Level boost such as WoW’s Level 60 character boost,
Exp boost, permanent or temporary, outside boosts from a particular in-game event (+% more Exp for 1 hour),
Legendary gear,
Stats boost, temporary or permanent,
Cosmetics that give you an advantage (Stat boost, Exp boost, make you invisible to other players, etc.)


Pay to convenience: Exchange real money to get an in-game enhancement of your gameplay that gives no advantages over players:
Inventory spaces,
Bank spaces,
Higher weight limit,
Mounts with no particular advantages overs in-game earned mounts

Grey zone:
Cosmetics that give you no advantages beside changing your look.

BaSkA_9x2

What does power usually mean in an MMORPG? Gold, gear, combat buffs, profession buffs, EXP buffs, character level, skills, bag size, Auction House/Marketplace slots and anything else that directly or indirectly gives a character any advantage over another character at any in-game activity.

What does P2W mean in an MMORPG? The ability to buy power from the developer/publisher with real money.

There are levels of P2W, there's ridiculous P2W, there's tiresome P2W, there's light P2W... but the fact remains that if you can legally buy any advantage over someone who doesn't, that game is P2W. Then it's up to each individual to decide how much P2W they find acceptable and proceed to shill for it as much as possible.

If you can buy power by breaking the rules that's not P2W, it's cheating/RMT/RWT.

If you can make your character look better than others with real money, that's unfortunate. However, it's not P2W as long as the cosmetics don't give you any advantages over another player besides looking better, which is subjective (unlike power).

That's what P2W should mean to everyone, but unfortunately nowadays too many people defend and shill for P2W mechanics because their favorite game has them.

Talents

P2W is anything that gives any sort of advantage no matter how minuscule. I don't differentiate between P2W or P2Convinience. Buying inventory slots is P2W. Buying gold is P2W. Buying gear is P2W. Buying enhancements is P2W. etc. etc.

novercalis

Talents wrote: »

P2W is anything that gives any sort of advantage no matter how minuscule. I don't differentiate between P2W or P2Convinience. Buying inventory slots is P2W. Buying gold is P2W. Buying gear is P2W. Buying enhancements is P2W. etc. etc.

this.

bag space is p2w. you can stay longer, loot more, make more money in return, creating a larger gap than someone else without.

Nerror

Talents wrote: »

P2W is anything that gives any sort of advantage no matter how minuscule. I don't differentiate between P2W or P2Convinience. Buying inventory slots is P2W. Buying gold is P2W. Buying gear is P2W. Buying enhancements is P2W. etc. etc.

This, but I also include store cosmetics that affect how hard you are to spot in PvP for example, or if it is very misleading in some other way.

RazThemun

P2W= I can purchase something and obtain advantage over another person who did not pay the $.

Weapons, Armor, Mounts, Extra bag slots, Chests full of loot goodies such as character boosts, potions, etc

(I am not talking skins to change a look.. changing a look of something is not giving an advantage in gameplay)

BaSkA_9x2

Nerror wrote: »

I also include store cosmetics that affect how hard you are to spot in PvP for example, or if it is very misleading in some other way.

Some of my most useful Rust skins are the ones that make it easier to blend with and hide in the snow, desert, forest, bushes and during the night. They definitely help me hide and kill people, so indeed it can be considered P2W.

I don't worry too much about this issue in Ashes because it can easily be (at least partially) solved by showing little dots for all characters around you on the minimap (except for invisible/stealth players). However, if they don't implement something similar to that, then camo skins will become the meta to help you hide, which sadly means it gives an advantage i.e. P2W.

George_Black

Some people like to fool themselves, some allow themselves, knowingly, to be fooled by studios.
Some people see p2w in mmos and are ok with it, some see p2w in mmos, turn around and never look back.

There is no need for definitions. P2w is p2w.

Azherae

For a subscription based game, anything whatsoever that you can buy in the game store from the publisher is P2W (for me, including premium subscriptions).

For a free-to-play game with a 'single tier battle pass/sub-like boost', any other tiers of 'boost' or 'battle pass', and anything else you can buy in the game store is P2W.

Cosmetics vary depending on whatever effect they can have on anything that is reasonably considered a competition in the game's structure, and the availability of alternates.

Arkyfinity

For me, coming from a game that has zero "buy better items for money" going on, my definition of "pay to win" is anything beyond cosmetics and perhaps XP boosters. I don't mind boosters per se. They're usually for players who want to zoom through the content anyway. Same with "buy ticket to max level" - I think that's a personal choice and there should be an option to earn "tokens" in-game that can help you level up another character in your account faster.

For a battle pass, I'd assume it would cover "future content" in form of small DLCs and items worth in-game currency, boosters, etc, not weapons that grant you superpowers.

I'm sure Intrepid are fully aware of this.

daveywavey

As long as I can buy extra character slots, I'm happy.

Jhoren

daveywavey wrote: »

As long as I can buy extra character slots, I'm happy.

How many would you like to have? Because I think the default limit should be very generous. Like at least 10, but preferably 15 or 20.

tautau

To the OP, I consider everything on your 'Pay to Convenience" list to be a Pay to Win item. It appears that AoC also considers them that way. Here is the wiki: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Pay_to_win

daveywavey

Jhoren wrote: »

but preferably 15 or 20.

I'd be perfectly happy with that amount. I like to experience the game from each perspective, as it helps me to learn it better, so I'll want at least one of each archetype. It also means I can more easily fill in to make up numbers for a raid, and also that there's always a character to play for whatever mood I'm in at the time.

Lots of character slots is important for me.

Veeshan

Bank spaces and character slots only thing i see as convience and isnt pay to win and thats assuming bank shape is reasonable space to begin with

Hutchy1989

Everything that you listed as "pay to convenience" I would argue are pay to win.

Noaani

Veeshan wrote: »

Bank spaces and character slots only thing i see as convience and isnt pay to win and thats assuming bank shape is reasonable space to begin with

I am of the same opinion.

To me, anything you can gain by purchasing a second account should not be considered pay to win.

Leonerdo

I mostly agree with what others have said, but I would add that pay for convenience becomes P2W, specifically when a game becomes super grindy. If it takes a free-to-play player 8+ hours a day to keep up with the gear curve (or if it scales infinitely), then time = power. In that case, any convenience or time saver that allows you to grind faster will put you ahead of the curve permanently, making it P2W.

*coughcoughblackdesertcoughcough*

If the a game has a clear and easily attainable power-cap though, then conveniences can't make you any more powerful than your competition, just save you some time getting there.

So for example, I'd be fine with XP boosts in Ashes, but only after the first 4+ months. At that point everyone has had a chance to get to max level unaided, and extra XP wouldn't be an advantage to any competitive players.

Arya_Yeshe

If a game lets you play with multiple characters at the same time, just by letting you swipe the credit cards, that's P2W too. Still, it demands a lot of player skill to handle this and make it worth spending that much money, this is not for everybody even if you got the money for that.

I've seen people effectively PvP with 15 alts altogether

Percimes

Depends if the game has PvP or not, especially open world PvP. In that case, some of what I would consider convenience features in a strictly PvE game can shift to the P2W category. It also depends if the game is free to play, has a initial purchase and/or has monthly subscriptions. I'm more lenient on what I categorize as conveniences the lower the cost to play, but the more PvP depend the game is the easier it will be for something to become P2W.

BlackBrony

It depends on what your goals is. In GW2 people compete to have the most achievement points. In Wow Asmongold does the "show your mount" competition, or the best outfit.
If you are a completionist, anything that is not accessible through gameplay is by definition P2W. You might not care that X outfit is not available, but some people strive for that.

Yuyukoyay

For competition P2W cosmetics are usually banned. P2W is clearly defined and has been since the 90s. We don't need kids coming and trying to redefine net speak. Learn what we've been using for the last 30 years or you'll just be ignored.

Gospell

the only thing that is acceptable to me is character skins and mounts that do not affect the characteristics. And the increase in inventory slots should be opened by playing, perhaps for gold or for some kind of rare items.

Nerror

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

For competition P2W cosmetics are usually banned. P2W is clearly defined and has been since the 90s. We don't need kids coming and trying to redefine net speak. Learn what we've been using for the last 30 years or you'll just be ignored.

Just curious, how is this clear definition from the 90s worded exactly?

Yuyukoyay

All in game advantages are P2W. Inventory slots count into this because it gives an economical advantage in game simply by having the ability to sell more stuff when coming to town.

Cosmetics of all kinds are not P2W no matter the modes people play in game because they enhance appearance and don't benefit the main modes of play.

It is less defined and more understood as a community. This community takes a lot of knowledge for granted to the point that you are expected to know stuff you may not have an avenue to know. Based on prior experience from other games. When you play you will come to understand the community. You don't necessarily have to worry about it.

If you can buy any combat advantage or resource advantage are generally what constitute P2W. Anything else people generally don't care about as long as the best cosmetics and mounts aren't in the store. Players generally don't mind 70% of cosmetics achievable in game and 30% in the store. The more invested into the store the more problems you are going to have with the playerbase. This is provided buyable cosmetics are notably better than the in game ones. If they are interchangable like promised then no one will care.

I just don't want to be forced to look as BSDM clothes and would like an option to make players the base model and disable their skins.

Depraved

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

All in game advantages are P2W. Inventory slots count into this because it gives an economical advantage in game simply by having the ability to sell more stuff when coming to town.

Cosmetics of all kinds are not P2W no matter the modes people play in game because they enhance appearance and don't benefit the main modes of play.

It is less defined and more understood as a community. This community takes a lot of knowledge for granted to the point that you are expected to know stuff you may not have an avenue to know. Based on prior experience from other games. When you play you will come to understand the community. You don't necessarily have to worry about it.

If you can buy any combat advantage or resource advantage are generally what constitute P2W. Anything else people generally don't care about as long as the best cosmetics and mounts aren't in the store. Players generally don't mind 70% of cosmetics achievable in game and 30% in the store. The more invested into the store the more problems you are going to have with the playerbase. This is provided buyable cosmetics are notably better than the in game ones. If they are interchangable like promised then no one will care.

I just don't want to be forced to look as BSDM clothes and would like an option to make players the base model and disable their skins.

some games have p2w cosmetics

Iskiab

My definition is any game I have to return because it’s a bad game. I’m old, don’t mind paying the box price but if I start playing a game and stupid things start happening like I don’t have inventory space I just stop playing or return the game.

P2W is just another name for a bad game, they’re synonymous.

unknownsystemerror

You can have any opinion on "this is P2W!" that you like. This is the only one that matters here.

Zeitlos

Anything a player can purchase for real currency that provides any inherent advantage in the game.

Myosotys

JeanPhilippeQC wrote: »

Everyone has they own definition of pay-to-win and pay-to convenience. So, I decided to gather up mine to guide me in my future MMORPG playing. What’s your definition?

Pay to win: Exchange real money for an in-game advantage that makes you stronger than players that don’t spend a penny, including
Level boost such as WoW’s Level 60 character boost,
Exp boost, permanent or temporary, outside boosts from a particular in-game event (+% more Exp for 1 hour),
Legendary gear,
Stats boost, temporary or permanent,
Cosmetics that give you an advantage (Stat boost, Exp boost, make you invisible to other players, etc.)


Pay to convenience: Exchange real money to get an in-game enhancement of your gameplay that gives no advantages over players:
Inventory spaces,
Bank spaces,
Higher weight limit,
Mounts with no particular advantages overs in-game earned mounts

Grey zone:
Cosmetics that give you no advantages beside changing your look.

According to me P2W = "Pay to convenience". As far as progress faster if you pay, it is P2W ! So according to me, only cosmetics should be for sale IG.