When 'The Blood Still Due zone entered' pops up it needs an audio attachment of a ghostly howl that almost sounds like wind in a cave or something similar.
The colors of the combat visual effects and the effects and skills in general don't pair with the rest of the game. Colors should be defined and sharp but with a brittle and more dark deep glowing hue color palette. The bright blinding neon colors in the game now are out of place and break any sense of immersion.
I'll also add that the classes lack identity. There was little to no telling of what class the different melee group members are while in combat and that's a big problem. They lack unique style effects, presence, and sound design.
Class fantasy with uniqueness and identity combined with combat are the things the absolutely NEED to be good.
Basic abilities should not have any particle effects, I know that Steve said there will be a slider to reduce the effects but hopefully we can turn these effects based on abilities types not one slider for all. For example Basic 0% , Thresholds 25%, ultimate 100%. What do you think?
Hi. For a long time I did not know what irked me about the combat in ashes. On paper it seemed awesome , but looking at it , something was off. Then someone pointed out what it was https://youtu.be/Aj6Y3UtWkt8?t=858 . Please Intrepid , Mr. Steven, see if there is any truth to what that person is talking about. Not trying to promote or anything, I will try to phrase it myself if this is an issue. But I think my understanding of it and skill at explaining would be lacking.
I'd like to point out how much the environment is absolutely amazing, nothing to add there besides complementing intrepid really has such an amazing team. I was also very very happy when Steven further confirmed the risk vs reward nature of Open World Dungeons where PvP is an essential part of it and Intrepid does not intend to stop or prevent friction between players.
I am really enjoying the PvE TTK shown in the latest live streams when fighting elite mobs, hopefully, with a 8 man group it continues to be on the longer/harder side and my Biggest concern is that I really, really hope when it comes down to balancing PvP even in the early passes, the PvP TTK is as described before, 60s to 30s minimum even with glass cannon builds so we don't end up with a game like archeage where you get nuked in just a few seconds without reaction time, this is essential for open world PVP to feel good.
Finally, I'd just like to once again point out how incoherent gamers are when talking about the showcase, the following are Screenshots of BDO's gameplay on max settings in a dark environment - keep in mind this is praised by many as """the best combat in an MMO"""
now of course, they have VFX sliders so this is absolutely NOT an issue and not something intrepid should be concerned about, you can make the same argument for FF14, flashy VFX are 100% not an issue when there are sliders, that's all there is to it.
The combat overall is looking great, good direction, just keep in mind people don't understand it is only low-level combat when they are talking about It and giving feedback.
Hi. For a long time I did not know what irked me about the combat in ashes. On paper it seemed awesome , but looking at it , something was off. Then someone pointed out what it was https://youtu.be/Aj6Y3UtWkt8?t=858 . Please Intrepid , Mr. Steven, see if there is any truth to what that person is talking about. Not trying to promote or anything, I will try to phrase it myself if this is an issue. But I think my understanding of it and skill at explaining would be lacking.
@bluntoze - please do phrase it yourself. I watched this entire video and I don't have the slightest clue what you're referring to unless it's the flashy effects that the rest of the thread is also talking about.
If it's just that, no issues, just saving specific people 15 minutes in that case. Thanks.
I like the dark aesthetic of the area, especially the lighting inside the tower. I like the concept of areas opening up based on event stages and new pathways appearing. It really helps keep things interesting as opposed to everything being stagnant and monster's appearing out of literal thin air like most other games. I think it's important to tell a story rather than lazily planting enemies in players way. How did they get there and why? Visual and audio queues can go a long way. An example would be a side of a mountain collapsing creating an opening into the darkness and a goblin horde pours out into a field. Sounding their horns they rush to besiege the nearby town.
Several things these types of events are doing: It breaks the monotony of packs of AI standing around idle waiting to be farmed by players. It alerts nearby players with visuals and audial queues and creates a sense of a living breathing world. Creates a sense of urgency for players to react to such an event or face the consequences of their town being damaged or destroyed.
Another thing I'd like to bring up is the blinding VFX and I will continue to do so until something is done about it. It's obnoxiously bright, takes away from the experience and is distracting. There's no reason for basic attacks of any kind to even have those effects. I believe the effects need some level of transparency, which would go a long way for improving visibility in combat.
Great content. But the lighting effects from the spells and weapons need to be toned down. Whilst subjectively, they may look good, they get in the way of playing the game.
i think it would look amazing if there was that explosion then like a halo of mist around the top and the vines and mist started to lower around the tower and then spread out. i think that the weather/seasons should still be shown through the transformation some. you could have areas still close up if the other enterances get iced over or a passage flooded from the rain, bloody snow, the blood water falls could get an ice fall behind it, different creatures at different times like the ghost wolves come out more at night. i liked the mimic, could have it wait till you are closer or actually tried to open it, maybe have some of those chests require 4 people around it trying to open it before it will open or spawn into one of those mimics, have some of the chests go to the dreaded rng and sometimes be a chest and other times spawn into the mimic. have areas that need specific classes/professions to access. i would like to see some differnt puzzles in the areas and not just be a kill on your way to the end.
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OrbificatorMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 2023
Just spitballin' here. Nothing thoroughly thought through.
Changeable idle animations = Awesome.
The explosion effect on the tower could use some jazzing up. I understand this is alpha and there are more pressing things but hey, take it or leave it.
How well can this event be viewed/heard from a distance? The initial activation is very shortlived and not many will be there to see it so, can the haze of the corrupted zone be viewed from a distance? It would be nice to know an event is happening through in-game visual means rather than just a UI heads-up. These visual markers could be awesome scenes viewable from very far away, leading people to them.
The movement of objects and creation/loss of paths in the world is very cool. Particularly actually seeing them move before you.
btw as a content creator, I really appreciate the 4k footage now being posted in 16:9 instead of ultrawide it makes it SO much easier for us not having to edit the black bars
Combat still needs lots of work. Rather than flashiness I would much appreciate depth. Lots of conditional effects, things to evade, opponent mechanics to prevent/interrupt.
I loved everything about this idea and I have never came across anything like this in other MMO’s but this looked amazing and it’s a very interesting concept that breaks the everyday life in a MMO which is nice to have because it makes the game feel fresh.
Now the story is what I am most familiar with and I think hands down FF14 has the best story I have ever played. Specifically Shadowbringers and the Emet-Selch storyline. Now one makes this such a masterpiece is Emet-Selch is a grey character, meaning you can empathise with what he is trying to do even though he is a villain, giving this kind of story to a villain brings a lot of substance. Also the main character you’re playing feels important, feels like the world needs that character. This makes the game feel like what your doing is contributing to saving the mmo world you’re in. Now if you pick WoW story for example, your just a random character doing raids feeling very little importance. What does the difference mean? The difference means I get more emotionally attached to the one that feels important and that’s the one I want to log into. Story is everything.
Now given what I mentioned about story, I hope you can tie in some good substance into what is happening, it doesn’t necessarily have to be big and grandiose, but it has to feel meaningful, other than loot why is my character wanting to go here? What purpose is my character in this mmo world?
Giving a really great identity to the character helps shape the story and it pays off tenfold.
My biggest concern is I hope this allows for smaller groups and pugs, not everyone will have a pre-made group ready to do this content. Some players don’t even belong in guilds so making it accommodating to everyone would be my biggest worry
Q: How do you feel about the environment of Carphin? Do you like the mood, setting, lighting, etc?
A: Looked good! Having the world change around you, with animated elements like the bridge, was a very nice touch!
Q: What are your favorite open-world dungeon elements that you would like us to incorporate? Please provide examples when applicable.
A: Not exactly open world, as it was a separate zone (not instanced), but my personal favorite was Sol B from Everquest. It had all the right elements. Content ranging from mid level to raiding, a mix of creatures in different regions, rare spawns with loot that remained relevant for a long time, and a raid boss (Lord Nagafen) as the final encounter. And trains! "Choo choo!"
Fun fact! If the raid failed, the dragon would summon the corpses of all the raiders, and add them to his hoard. (In Everquest, you woke up naked, and had to loot your corpse to regain your equipment. And you lost 20% of your XP and could delevel. You needed your corpse to get some of that lost XP back throught the use of a ressurection spell from a cleric. A failed Nagafen raid could require a second raid to get your gear back. Everquest raids - at least early - could be as many as 72 people".
Q: Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the area of Carphin?
A: Will there be story lines that span different states of a PoI? What happens if I am on story line that sends me here during the norma" state, and arrives after it changed to the corrupted state? I am guessing the story line will simply pause, and continue once the event has ended?
Q: Have you experienced areas in MMOs that adaptively change and are dynamic? What do you like or dislike about those environments?
A: Yes, first time in World of Warcraft (Wrath of the Lich King) where different quest stages would change the surrounding. In WoW, this was done (I believe) by having multiple zones overlapping, and simply loading me into a different instance, so not entierly comparable. I like the option to re-visit old locations, and having them gated behind a quest stage (like in WoW) was not something I really appreciated.
Q: What are your favorite story arc elements in other MMOs and what would you like to see implemented into Ashes of Creation?
A: SWTOR had the absolute best story arcs of any MMO I have played. Outside of MMO's I much enjoyed the humour of Borderlands (the first two games). This kind of humour is difficult though. It tends to be really bad if you dont get it right.
Many MMO's I have played tend to introduce players with trivial tasks and quests that aren't engaging. This often leads me into a pattern of skipping quest dialogues, and missing out the better stories that unlock at higher levels.
A few tips
- Avoid forcing me to care about an individual (NPC) that I just met.
- Dont try to elaborate the simple tasks, keep them simple.
- Employ a solid comedy-writer to add some one-liners and slap-stick humour where appropriate.
- Have player choices really impact the outcome of a story.
The final one is huge! If my choices have no effect, dont bother giving me options. If you decide to give players options, make sure they really impact what happens around me, and how NPC's react to me. This is likely more challenging and time-consuming to pull off - but worth it in my opinion. Multiple choice quests that all end up the same place regardless of decision is a cheap ploy, and should be avoided.
SWTOR got this right.
Personally, I would rather have a few rich story arcs that really pulls me in, and give me a few meaningful choices along the way that will branch out in a range of different endings, with the rest of the character progression being pure mob grind, as opposed to having to complete an endless chain of pointless and boring quests (like fetch x of this, or kill y of that). Then again, I did enjoy the static camps of Everquest.
This thread here is the biggest issue, just fanvpboi mania.
I thought the mobs look pretty boring, and all so samie
Too much flash for not enough substance.
Open world dungeons, recipe for disaster… end up being an easy run for all, as the numbers at the start will be so great.
Will add a bit more once I watched it again, but tbh, I was not overly impressed..it just seemed boring.
Hopefully there will be a sea dungeon like that and the sea will go blood red, there will be rain storms, omminous skies and howling winds (very howly)
This post shows how good I feel the direction the Carphin took, so good that more stuff in that direction should be made
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
Hopefully there will be a sea dungeon like that and the sea will go blood red, there will be rain storms, omminous skies and howling winds (very howly)
This post shows how good I feel the direction the Carphin took, so good that more stuff in that direction should be made
I thought the stream was very good and enjoyed a lot of what I saw and heard regarding the story arc system and the environment. Here are some points of feedback that may or may not be a part of the current direction.
1. Good narrative outcomes that don't inhibit gameplay
The most imortant part of a story arc, is obviously the story itself. I think its important to make sure the narratives are good without taking away from the other gameplay elements and player freedom/expression.
Here is an amazing example of a very engaging, immersive, and interesting narrative being told, while still having unique paths/outcomes, moral choices to make, and is told organically through the gameplay.
I think its important for mystery to be a big part of the story, to get players invested into progressing through the story and piecing together clues to solve the mystery. Based on this, I think there should be certain "higher risk" arcs with much deeper mystery elements to uncover, requiring more detective work and world knowledge to uncover the secrets, for a greater reward and more satisfying story arc.
Here is an example that talks about a game that does well at setting up a good mystery in the story that gets the player invested in uncovering the truth.
I love the idea that that different choices can lead to different stories. I think its important to support multiple playstyles and paths to reach specific story arcs. It should help with this by tieing the story arc triggers to ambiguous goals that can be accomplished in a variety of ways.
4. Systemic and emergent story arcs, not overly scripted
I think its important for the story to feel emergent, thus, there should be many different arcs to reward and account for the various types of gameplay approaches and interactions of different systems. It would be way less satisfying if players think of creative ways to manipulate and interact with the different systems, but most just end up leading to the same story arcs as other approaches. Players should be rewarded for their creativity with many possible story outcomes. There should be lots of ways to clash systems together to create emergent stories, and the game should track your actions to tell you a more personalized story based on your choices.
5. Music tells a story alongside the narrative of the story arcs
I think its important that the music tells a story that is juxtaposed directly alongside the narrative itself. This can make a compelling and satisfying form of progression/reward for the player and enhance the experience in a meaningful way.
Here are some examples of music being used to tell a story that fits cohesively alongside the rest of the game, while also rewarding the player with musical medleys as they progress through the story. I think it would be a huge missed opportunity to neglect this form of story telling.
6. Other elements of good story arcs (from previous relevant post)
This ties in to my post in the lore characters/story dev discussion thread, so I will reinforce the points I already made there by copy/pasting directly below, since that is my feedback for the design of the story arcs themselves, the character design within the story arcs, and player interaction with the story arc system.
How do you like interacting with the characters and story within the story arcs?
A) Playstyle/role-play options and expression
There should be lots of options and variety in how you can interact with lore characters/world. These interactions should require a lot of thought and decision making from the player, due to the complexities of the characters/world and the consequences of actions, due to the many routes players can take and how all the systems interact with each other.
I should always be thinking about how to handle an interaction with a character, through having options such as
1. Stealth (should I sneak past this character?)
2. Persuasion (should I try to convince this character to do what I want?)
3. combat (Should I fight this character?)
4. bribery (should I bribe this character to do what I want?)
5. pacifism (should I not do anything at all to this character?)
6. Traversal (should I run/climb away from this character?)
7. Political sabotage (Should I get my allies to deal with this character, or pit my enemies against each other?)
8. Dynamic blend (should I use a combination of these options as I adapt to what is going on?)
9. etc.
I think its extremely important to allow players to role play these various interactions, for both gameplay depth, and role-play/moral expression purposes.
Here is a video that does case studies on how to make conversational interactions very fun and interesting
-A big part of designing for player expression, stems from npc interactions that present problems that can be dealt with in various and emergent ways, rather than individual/static solutions.
The benefits to this type of overall design approach is talked about in this video
And an example of how this is done in action when designing npc interactions, through a variety of potential gameplay/role-play options is explained in this video, which details a specific side quest that has these properties.
some other case studies (less relevant to this specific discussion), but relevant to the other interactable role-play options include:
GMTK stealth series (multiple videos)
GMTK "making movement a mechanic"
GMTK "climbing in games"
-All found on that same youtube channel if you are interested.
B- Invisible choices
For the parts of the story that I can impact- I want to be able to develop my character relationships and make other types of choices organically, through the actual gameplay mechanics that are relevant in the moment, rather than the options being laid out in front of me to pick from.
This has made for some of the most interesting experiences in games for me, because it makes you actually think outside of the box about what options you could possibly take, and what the game might allow you to do or how it might allow you to behave, which can make for some very excellent role-play moments and satisfying emergent experiences.
This video explains what this means and how to do it well
I loved how final fantasy 6 does this, to create some very powerful moments where it puts the player in control of deciding on their own what is important to them and how to go about accomplishing those goals, without holding the player's hand.
A great example of this is when the player is on the "floating continent", and the story has your actual assasin companion named Shadow, stay behind to hold off the enemies while you try to escape the floating continent before it explodes, so you make your way to the one and only aircraft to escape. This was a crazy moment, because you assume the story will unfold regardless of what happens. This is not the case, as you actually have to make the invisible choice of waiting for him until the very last seconds before the continent explodes, for him to come running and leave with you. If you don't, then he dies and you lose him as a group member the rest of the game. This makes for an impactful moment, because once you realize that there are invisibke choices like this, you actually have to play the game with intention and thought, you have to constantly be thinking about what/who you care about, because there are consequences to your actions, and you have to think about how to ensure those goals are met through your invisible choices, since you could easily miss potential options if you aren't careful.
There are tons of lessons to be learned from final fantasy 6 in regards to worldbuilding/invisble choices. I think it also does this really well when these invisible choices allow you to play an active role in npc character progression through your knowledge of the character and world.
- An example of this is:
You have a group member named Gau, who in the story is portrayed as a child who was raised by wild monsters. He has a mechanic where he can leap on to monsters, and if he is on a monster when after the battle ends, then he will disapprear from your party. Well, this is cool for several reasons. The first is that the actual mechanics of leaping/being gone from party are used to establish his character and lore. The second- is that if you think about his character and how he is portrayed, you might realize that if you actually leave him in that area for long enough something might happen. This does end up being the case, because if you actually come back later he actually learns abilities from the monster that he stuck to over that period of time. Games normally stick to a predictable formula, so when you are rewarded for thinking outside the box like this, it is really fun and interesting- so that is just one of many great examples of invisible choices the player can make.
C) Kowledge-based gameplay
- I would like for characters to have unique backstories, peronality traits, and routines that can be utilized for gameplay purposes (such as being chased by a corrupted player, but knowing an NPC guard that has experience against corruption and hates it, and that he will be at his post during a certain time. So, you choose to hide out there knowing that he will help fight off the player if the player shows up there while corrupted.) That type of analysis on the character's personality and behaviors should be rewarded.
If there is a specific quest that revolves around mastering a particular task to get a relevant reward, it would be awesome to see an npc that also has that same reward, and if the player is rewarded for deducing that the npc has experience with that same particular task, just based on that gameplay element of observing them in possesion of that reward. (such as a fishing quest where you recieve a specific rod built to help with the challenge of catching a specific fish in the game, and later you see an npc with that same rod, so you assume he is trying/had tried in the past to catch the same fish- so you bring the fish to him when you catch it to see his reaction, and are rewarded for that kind of deduction and world/character knowledge.)
-Not only should knowledge of characters in the lore matter, but knowledge of the lore in general should mean something and tie in to gameplay, rather than just being something interesting to know. Its always so cool when games hide "lost logs" of adventurers that you can find, but most games just leave it at that, as a way of understanding the world- rather than rewarding you for that understanding through things like filling those logs with gameplay-impacting info like:
1. hinting at secret areas you can actually find, such as that adventurer hinting at a magical portal shortcut they found, and the player can figure out how to activate it and use it as an alternative caravan route.
2. helpful gameplay advice like nuanced behaviors and mechanics of enemies that the adventurer experienced, like how certain enemies from different areas interact with each other
3. knowledge of lore characters that can actually be leveraged (such as the fishing rod example)
4. It would be cool if certain "logs" (or other types of character/lore/world information) only make sense when put into context with other logs/info. such as one log having the adventurer hinting at how specific npc mechanics interact with a specific location/prop in the environment to create a portal- but another log referencing an event that they mysteriously vanished to another area but you wouldn't understand that unless you read the log about them opening the portal.
-A game that executed really well on using this design approach of player interactivity and observation to gain knowledge of the characters and world, is Deus ex mankind divided, as explained in this analysis video.
-I think using great detective games as a reference for how to make lore/character/world knowledge compelling and fun gameplay would be a great idea. These videos explain the design principles of this type of fun gameplay, which I think would work extremely well if adapted into the setting of Ashes.
I think it would be a missed opportunity to have all necessary map and navigational info instantly accessible to players. There is loads of fun gameplay around navigating and exploration. Lore characters can be used as an immersive tool for players, by helping them navigate the world, to encourage exploration and interaction with lore characters.
E) Customizable story/experience told through emergent gameplay
To me, gameplay itself can be a story, so I want to interact with characters and the world through gameplay, and for these experiences to tell my personal story.
-Watching all the complexities of the game interact with each other based on my decisions as a player, is the most engaging and immersive way of presenting stories, from an interactive gameplay perspective.
I will mention later how curated story can be told through these gameplay systems and how to connect systematic gameplay and character/worldbuilding stories, detailed in the "Telling stories with systems" video.
- I also want to be able to connect with characters I like, to use them for my benefit and build relationship with them. I would like to express dislike for characters I don't like, and be able to manipulate those characters for my benefit as well. Its always cool when you can recruit character's you like, or when your character can gain powers or cosmetics that show flavor from characters you have interacted with and help show your character's story.
Overall, interacting with npcs should feel organic, compelling, challenging, and epic in its gameplay and its consequences
Where do you want to see yourself within the narrative of the story arcs?
A) Cohesive worldbuilding
Both large and small scale impact-
- I want the story to change based on my actions, and for the game to show me my impact on both larger and smaller details in the world, such as lore character progression and affecting the lives of npcs.
This video talks about designers can create more believable worlds from large to small scale, by using characters and environments to support the narrative.
It would be awesome to see this kind of worldbuilding in Ashes, especially when paired with the dynamic story arcs, which could be reflected by changes in the state of the world around us at all levels.
B- Personalized story/consequences
Understanding the path I chose, and having personalized relationship with characters-
- I want the game to track my experience and tell a story that also relates to my specific experiences. Things like actually earning a hero status in an organica eay through your actual accomplishments, resulting in being treated differently based on those achievements. Also, things like keeping a track record of decisions/experiences and react to them through things like having characters reference your achievements and habits
Another game that did this well was metal gear solid, where the game tracks your actions and surprises you with different outcomes while recapping actions you took to lead you to that point. This is a very interesting way of doing character progression, based on tracking how the player interacts with different lore characters and the choices they make along the way.
C) Moral expression/role-play
The choices themselves have real meaning that allow for moral expression outside of just gameplay implications-
- I want a story/interactions with characters that allow me to role-play through choices with moral ambiguity. Make the player's choices themselves part of the story through morality ambiguous choices that allow for role playing, and tell a story in and of themselves about the player themselves, within the overarching narrative of that player's experience.
For the part of the story that is more curated in design- I want to experience the story by being shown through the gameplay, rather than told through a scene or dialogue, whenever possible
-I like story moments where my actual expectation of mechanics are subverted for story telling purposes, such as dieing during a fight, but an npc swoops in and saves you from death and its penalties, using game mechanics, and not a cutscene or reading about it later. Or, falling asleep somewhere but you actually wake up somewhere else instead, rather than the expected location. Situations like these where mechanics actually function differently and lore characrers can affect how mechanics work as a part of the story, can lead to really cool stories and be very immersive.
These videos address how interesting stories are best told through mechanics, systems, and gameplay, basically for the players to experience and interact with the story themselves, rather than observe it as a bystander through things like dialogue and cutscenes.
-as far as the actual narrative itself for the different story arcs- I want the story to be very thought provoking and philisophical, as mentioned earlier, through asking the player to make tough morally ambiguous decisions.
There are also some other elements in the story that I tend to like as well. I like when there is a sense of mystery, suspense, drama, and unpredictability, and overall "uneasiness" in the narrative, where everything seems okay on the surface but there is a serious threat building up/pulling the strings behind the scenes. I like when characters aren't who you expect them to be as you discover more about them. I love when unexpected relationships form by characters crossing paths, who may have had separate story lines up to that point. I like when there is a "bigger picture" in the narrative, that you the player have to learn more about and become involved in. Some of the stories that stuck with me the most are about thinking you are familiar with characters, who then subvert your expectations (like in Star Wars- Anakin Skywalker's transition to Darth Vader, or Chancellor Palpatine actually being Darth Sideous). These stories also have complexities in what factors are involved and how these could cause the story to branch in different directions- but ultimately come down to very simple but key decisions, made in key moments, by key characters. These types of stories are very interesting to me. I also like when there is a lot of strategic planning and thinking amongst the characters, resulting in meaningful actions that characters take, and a more believable world with reasoning behind everything, some of which the player may not find out about or understand until it is revealed later. I also love when there is a lot of politics and deception in the story as well.
I haven't put a whole lot of though into what makes great narratives, but there is plenty of inspiration to take from movies/games, in order to ensure that the narratives that stem from different emergent gameplay outcomes and story arcs are always interesting in the story they are telling.
-Overall I want the story to feel emergent, organic, personal, suprising, and philisophical, and worth being invested into.
What do you want to see out of important characters within the story arcs?
A) Complexities in characters/world
In order to reward world/character knowledge and have interesting lore, there needs to be a lot of information and character depth and world building for the players to learn and engage with.
-interesting and unique characters with deep personality/traits/behaviors/motivations
(to allow for more interesting npc interactions and kowledge-based gameplay)
I talked earlier about how characters should have "breadth" in how they can be interacted with, but I would also like to see characters have depth as well, in how they can be interacted with, to allow for more compelling/inreresting interactions, and character progression.
I think a game that did this really well is the recent "Triangle Strategy" rpg by square enix.
There are various story arcs in the game, determined by your actions taken. The interesting part is that these actions were taken by your party as a whole, so a majority had to agree through casting votes on a "scale of conviction", which acts as a means to an end to determine the group's course of action based on each character's personal convictions.
Each character has their own values and ways of making decisions and dealing with problems, creating some morally ambiguous decisions that need to be made. The fun part about all of this character depth, is that the player has an opportunity before each vote is done, to takle an active role in convincing other party members to take a specific cours of action. This means, that not only do you have to wrestle with the morality of the decision after hearing each character's opinion, but then you have to take your understanding of each character into account when reasoning with them to convinve them why your decision is best. This is very fun and interesting to try to disect a character's thought procress and use that to accomplish your own personal goal as a player. It also provides opportunities to learn more about different characters as you explore and uncover clues about different character's history, that you can use to help sway their opinions.
This wouldn't be possible without have that character depth, so I think designing characters in this way would make "invisible choices" that much more compelling and interesting through the amount of possibilities for character interactions and outcomes, and how these interactions could have systematic consequences with other parts of the game.
B- Believable characters/world
As mentioned earlier, part of telling a good story with a believable world involves a cohesive world/characters at a large and small scale, and I think this extends beyond the lore/cosmetic aspects, and down into the gameplay as well.
Its important that character's are believable even when gameplay is factored in.
Characters should actually impact gameplay when involved, their bahaviors should make sense during the gameplayand reflect their character accurately. If their is an escort mission where some strong npcs are helping you, they should actually be strong when fighting and not just stand a watch while you do everything. Obviously this would need to make sense gameplay wise, its just important to make sure there is consistency and believability.
-Its always cool when characters with conflicting and/or common interest with each other, but can actually act on those through gameplay in emergent ways, and there can be politics/drama between characters, not only in just the lore/story aspects
- A big part of believability is when the worldbuilding/lore is consistent with the gameplay and it makes sense. It seems obvious but some ganes tend to mess this up. This can provide fun opportunities where lore actually ties into the gameplay and has value for teaching the player about certain mechanics/intaractions, so there is a reason to take the time to explore and learn the lore in the world.
C) Reactive/dynamic characters/world
- I would like to see character progression that reacts to player choices and rewards the player's knowledge regarding the state/history of the characters and world
- I would like for characters and the world to be reactive, yet still have an element of unpredictability in how they progress and behave.
- I think their should be reactivity in all aspects of the character, not just what they say, in but in how they fight, and their behaviors and routines in the world.
-it would be especially cool if npcs in the open world were complex in their design, so they could decide to align themselves with different players based on player actions/reputation, based on the state of the server, and/or what their specific motivations and goals are.
D) Immersive use of characters/world
Overall I think a "show don't tell" approach is generally the most immersive and engaging method of design whenever applicable, because it rewards players who actually observe the behaviors and interactions of the world around them and the characters within it. Based on that, whenever you have something you want to communicate to the player, I think its best to tie that information to the interactions of in-game characters and environments, to reward player observation.
This will make information much more enjoyable to acquire and easier to digest, while encouraging more fun gameplay and atmosphere.
-This could apply to lore characters being used as a tutorial early on, (maybe through showing a strong lore character show off late-game skills in the starting area) to give the player a taste of end-game experiences/give goals to player, which is a nice quality of life feature relevant to skills and gear progression.
-Half life 2 did a great job at giving the player tutorials and teaching the player through observing the characters and environments around them.
-some other games that have extemely immersive characters and worlds, and do great at "showing not telling" are metro exodus, and deus ex mankind divided, as talked about in this analysis video, and the one I provided in an earlier section for deus ex.
- Its always cool when an npc has something you want, and you can actually recieve it from them in some way. It gives the player direction and intention when they can expect to get something relevant from a specific character, and it rewards exploring and interacting with npcs to progress, rather than grinding to level up and unlock them- such as
1. an experienced mage npc teaching you their unique ability they use
2. finding a bandit camp and stealing their unique weapons/gear
3. being able to hire a unique mercenary from that group you found
4. etc.
-just be careful with rewards, as they can end up being counterproducrive if done wrong
Just to quickly touch on this topic of rewards since it is relevant to my point on world/character knowledge being rewarded- It is somewhat of a conundrum because generally you want rewards to feel unique to the content you are doing and to reward players to try different types of gameplay and leave their comfort zone, but you also want rewards to be flexible for the player to be able to progress in their preferred content, because everyone has their preferences.
1. If you make rewards flexible (like skill points), the content feels the same, and the player will always just choose their preferred reward and never really progress in that other type of content
2. if you do static rewards for different types of content, yes it feels unique, but then its unfulffilling and the player is never really encouraged to try different content
Thats why I think its important for rewards to be a blend of both, to have unique rewards for that content- this could be a unique "traversal" ability taught from finding and interacting with a specific hermit npc, to encourage players to explore and progress in their exploration, but also have things like skill points as rewards to give them the freedom to also progress in their preferred content
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/52630/tower-of-creation
This is more about how dungeons areas can be gated, triggered and evolve.
And also about incorporating mechanics like caravans, building of infrastructure (e.g. bridges) and extraction kind of gameplay loops like "The Division and escape of tarkov".
In generall i would say dungeons (even if they are open world) are a good point to break out of the rule sets from the general world.
You can "gamify" the basic rule sets (like corruption) a lot,
design the dungeons for smaller and bigger groups through conflict of interest, set up objectives like extraction zones/king of the hill objectives/keys to open areas/push caravans towards an objective,
rethink staple features like respawning or reviving to build different experiences.
-> with the goal build entirely different experiences for the players.
Also usage of wards, traps, disguise mechanics in bushes. Some moba mechanics that could work well for making it more of a strategy driven experience.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the area of Carphin?
A concern i have is the scale of the dungeon.
While the dungeon seems to be the biggest POI for several Nodes in the area, I got the impression that the dungeon can only hold like 3 parties/ 24 Players simultanouesly.
Rough calc: 10.000 Players / 85 nodes * 5 nodes in proximity= 588 players in proximity.
I feel like 60 people / 10% is the minimum threshhold to aim at.
In times of high interest in the dungeon and story arc events, this number could very well exceeded by the factor of 10, which means a lot of conflict, which i like, but the numbers seem to be too extreme imo.
Have you experienced areas in MMOs that adaptively change and are dynamic? What do you like or dislike about those environments?
Played a bit of Guild Wars 2. Their story and quest system seemed to be dynamic and fun, but after a few times they got stale quick and you just farmed them.
The long respawn intervals of the events Intrepid seems to go for, should counter that effect.
What are your favorite story arc elements in other MMOs and what would you like to see implemented into Ashes of Creation?
Meteorites that drop and bring contested resources to vera.
Dungeon bosses that break out once you trigger something.
Like this post from @Kilion from the 2. thread.
It might also be an option to have key items IN the dungeon, like a wagon of dynamite to open a specific path and have that contested because the passage will close again. If different groups in a dungeon would influence events in the dungeon that would also be a kind of reward to be there when others are.
(EXAMPLE) Lets say there is a mine themed dungeon and portion of the mine dug into an old underground structure only to be abandoned there after some parasitic lifeform had killed a bunch of miners there. The mine was completely abandoned after a bunch of Earth/Rock/Crystal Elementals raided the place.
Group 1 takes a mine cart full of dynamite from the old storage facility to the outer wall of the structure and blows it up. The passage is clear but not stable, it sends tremors through the dungeon, notifying other groups that the passage has been opened but the explosion also has woken up an Earth Elemental Boss, who now starts moving through the mine shafts. Even though Group 1 triggered this event, they won't be the ones to encounter this Boss in this "Run", they can only encounter the Elemental Boss by exiting the dungeon and going back in from above. The triggered Earth Elemental proceeds through the dungeon, destroys the remaining dynamite in the storage house and then goes on to seal up the wall to the underground structure Group 1 opened because the parasites are a danger to the Elementals.
Group 2 who is also in the dungeon, decides to fight the Elemental Boss, they can attack him at the dynamite storage and use that dynamite to get an easier kill, but there is only a limited amount of time for that opportunity. If they don't succeed before the dynamite is completely destroyed the Elemental moves on to the breach in the mine and seals it up. While he channels his powers to seal the hole, Group 2 catches up and faces him again, but Group 3 has also waited here for the Elemental. They fight, Group 3 takes out Group 2 and then takes on the Elemental. The breach has been sealed but the Elemental has been slain. While all that was going on in that part of the dungeon, Group 4 has gone and taken a closer look at the resting place of that Earth Elemental and found some valuable stuff there as well as another area of the dungeon. If the Earth Elemental had survived to return to his resting spot after he sealed the breach only to find that it was looted, he would would go into a frenzy and enrage the other Elemental creatures in the mine as well. Also: If Group 1 abandons their run or wipes in the passage they have opened, a parasitic type of mob swarms out into the mine and takes over the Elementals.
Hi. For a long time I did not know what irked me about the combat in ashes. On paper it seemed awesome , but looking at it , something was off. Then someone pointed out what it was https://youtu.be/Aj6Y3UtWkt8?t=858 . Please Intrepid , Mr. Steven, see if there is any truth to what that person is talking about. Not trying to promote or anything, I will try to phrase it myself if this is an issue. But I think my understanding of it and skill at explaining would be lacking.
@bluntoze - please do phrase it yourself. I watched this entire video and I don't have the slightest clue what you're referring to unless it's the flashy effects that the rest of the thread is also talking about.
If it's just that, no issues, just saving specific people 15 minutes in that case. Thanks.
@Azherae
for some reason, the timestamp in their url isn't working (t=858)
Maybe this link works better:
(here)
but you assumed correctly - it's the part where Narc talks about the particle effects.
I have a feeling it's more about a clash from all the bloom (?) from the atmosphere lighting.
Hopefully not too late to the discussion. Anyway, overall what I saw and heard from the livestream seems really great. I love the direction that the story-arc system is heading, especially in regards to mechanics and how far the 'server story' is being pushed. As for Carphin itself, I really like the overall look of the place, it was really well done, before and after the transition. The inside might have been a tiny bit noisy on the texture front but it was a bit difficult to tell. Overall super impressed with what I saw, especially considering I don't like the blood astatic that much but still really liked this.
My only suggestion would be to make the transition more of an event in and of itself. When the conditions for the launch of the story arc are met, the zone the arc is located in gets a generalized alert. Something along the lines of telling the players that the tower is becoming more active, with a countdown timer till the launch of the arc. The timer would then facilitate 2 phases of transition.
The first being a slow type, that happens over the course of the entire timer. An example for Carphin would be the clouds. In the beginning, you'd have that initial blast, causing dark clouds to form around the tower. As the timer counts down the clouds spread throughout the zone. This would reach it's peak when the second phase of the transition hits.
The second phase would happen when around an hour or 30 mins remains till the start of the arc. This is where we'd start having more of the atmospheric transition, the blood effects, and finally as the timer is about to hit zero, the raising of the bridge (or other set piece for other story arcs) that allow the players access.
How do you feel about the environment of Carphin? Do you like the mood, setting, lighting, etc?
It was not bad at all, for sure. The direction is good, but it needs a lot of refinement. Even if i like the possibility of phasing a landmark like this. The changes implemented so far were like adding more, than really transform. But i suppose it's hard to compare when we didn't see the tower of carphin without the event. In short : Not bad, good direction need a lot more polish.
What are your favorite open-world dungeon elements that you would like us to incorporate? Please provide examples when applicable.
Mazes, Riddles, Invetigation, small puzzles, but also community puzzles (Like Destiny 2 did in the past for the launch of a new dungeon / raid where the entire community brain storm to find clues and crack secrets), Multiples routes (GW2), some procedural elements (TESO), small rogue like elements for replayability maybe, split players from each other and integrate player communication into the design of a trial / boss. (Destiny 2 again), shortcuts. choices that matter.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the area of Carphin?
Lore was great, would like to maybe have some hints also in game, or pieces of lore scattered that can precise the situation.
My concerns are as follows : I know it's the first you showed us, and it's an alpha, it will probably get better as more you will do it. But actually, the changes feels like not that drastic or impactfull. or should i say the impact is lessened by the way it is currently implemented. Fog, Hue, Some Effects, added on certain places, well it's just effects added over what is existing. I understand from a developper standpoint that is not easy to think, create 2 or more variant versions of an area. But the piling of effects, look a little cheap to me actually. It's noticeable. On the other side, the bridge by exemple is a great way to feel an impact on a zone we already now in a normal state.
In short : Piling Up effects feels a little cheap. I did not feel a real "Transformation" of the zone, it was a little crude. If effects is the way you want to go with this system it need a lot more polishing. That said the bridge was a great idea and ideally I would like a little less special effects and more change in that genre.
Edit : Maybe it's not having effects in itself who was bad, but the effects themselves. The "Blood rivers" on the walls is more a gaz / mist than really a liquid. There placements on the buildings (7:12 in the YT video) does not integrate naturally. Vines are a good idea too but the quality difference between the normal state and the quality of the assets is too noticeable. Texture quality / Effects quality were too much behind in polish / quality than the rest of the place.
Have you experienced areas in MMOs that adaptively change and are dynamic? What do you like or dislike about those environments?
WoW, TESO, GW2, FF XIV do it all in their own way. I think it's a great feature and a necessary one to feel the change, it's a good way to rediscover an area we already know too. I like it a lot. But the more beautiful and detailed is the base game, the more work is needed to make an impact on the world from a developper standpoint. In WoW with Cartoony / Low poly art style it is pretty easy to do. What i dislike about theses features it's that it is often either too much (Effects, Lighting etc) or not enough (Just some broken barrrels, and a hue change) in Lost Ark by example.
What are your favorite story arc elements in other MMOs and what would you like to see implemented into Ashes of Creation?
Politics, court intrigues, investigations, mistery, drama, deaths of characters that we care about and that have meaning for the player, some more laid back and maybe a little comical to let go of the pressure some times. Spying, infiltration, robbery ...
J'ai vraiment aimé la présentation du donjon, j'adore connaitre les lieux qui m'entoure , l'histoire, le lore ....
Par contre, je trouve que certains sorts font trop feux d'artifice, trop lumineux.
Pour ma part, ce que je voudrais voir dans un mmo vous allez me prendre pour un fou... C'est rencontrer des lieux fermées qui laisse place à mon imagination, peut etre une nouvelle instance ou par exemble des passage secrets souterrain qui apres avoir reussi une serie de quétes me permet de débloquer une porte magique naine pour passer sous une chaine de montagne. (je sais... lotr)
Mais aussi de récupérer des livres qui parlent de personnages importants , de guerre ancestrale, mobs ,des trophès etc pour customiser mon trou de hobbit.
Serveur pvp , ce qui veux dire piraterie donc l'ile de la tortue : p je vous laisse imaginer un lieux plein de débauche pardon pegi 12 .... zut
Pas de rangs pvp extérieur PL me please vive la creditcart ...., des exécutions en pvp certains penseront peut etre aux finish de age of conan en mmorpg.
Pas de bikini dans la boutique, impossible de ventre des cosmetic à l'hotel des ventes Vous pensez à archeage nn ?
Comments
The colors of the combat visual effects and the effects and skills in general don't pair with the rest of the game. Colors should be defined and sharp but with a brittle and more dark deep glowing hue color palette. The bright blinding neon colors in the game now are out of place and break any sense of immersion.
I'll also add that the classes lack identity. There was little to no telling of what class the different melee group members are while in combat and that's a big problem. They lack unique style effects, presence, and sound design.
Class fantasy with uniqueness and identity combined with combat are the things the absolutely NEED to be good.
I am really enjoying the PvE TTK shown in the latest live streams when fighting elite mobs, hopefully, with a 8 man group it continues to be on the longer/harder side and my Biggest concern is that I really, really hope when it comes down to balancing PvP even in the early passes, the PvP TTK is as described before, 60s to 30s minimum even with glass cannon builds so we don't end up with a game like archeage where you get nuked in just a few seconds without reaction time, this is essential for open world PVP to feel good.
Finally, I'd just like to once again point out how incoherent gamers are when talking about the showcase, the following are Screenshots of BDO's gameplay on max settings in a dark environment - keep in mind this is praised by many as """the best combat in an MMO"""
now of course, they have VFX sliders so this is absolutely NOT an issue and not something intrepid should be concerned about, you can make the same argument for FF14, flashy VFX are 100% not an issue when there are sliders, that's all there is to it.
The combat overall is looking great, good direction, just keep in mind people don't understand it is only low-level combat when they are talking about It and giving feedback.
@bluntoze - please do phrase it yourself. I watched this entire video and I don't have the slightest clue what you're referring to unless it's the flashy effects that the rest of the thread is also talking about.
If it's just that, no issues, just saving specific people 15 minutes in that case. Thanks.
Several things these types of events are doing: It breaks the monotony of packs of AI standing around idle waiting to be farmed by players. It alerts nearby players with visuals and audial queues and creates a sense of a living breathing world. Creates a sense of urgency for players to react to such an event or face the consequences of their town being damaged or destroyed.
Another thing I'd like to bring up is the blinding VFX and I will continue to do so until something is done about it. It's obnoxiously bright, takes away from the experience and is distracting. There's no reason for basic attacks of any kind to even have those effects. I believe the effects need some level of transparency, which would go a long way for improving visibility in combat.
Changeable idle animations = Awesome.
The explosion effect on the tower could use some jazzing up. I understand this is alpha and there are more pressing things but hey, take it or leave it.
How well can this event be viewed/heard from a distance? The initial activation is very shortlived and not many will be there to see it so, can the haze of the corrupted zone be viewed from a distance? It would be nice to know an event is happening through in-game visual means rather than just a UI heads-up. These visual markers could be awesome scenes viewable from very far away, leading people to them.
The movement of objects and creation/loss of paths in the world is very cool. Particularly actually seeing them move before you.
Now the story is what I am most familiar with and I think hands down FF14 has the best story I have ever played. Specifically Shadowbringers and the Emet-Selch storyline. Now one makes this such a masterpiece is Emet-Selch is a grey character, meaning you can empathise with what he is trying to do even though he is a villain, giving this kind of story to a villain brings a lot of substance. Also the main character you’re playing feels important, feels like the world needs that character. This makes the game feel like what your doing is contributing to saving the mmo world you’re in. Now if you pick WoW story for example, your just a random character doing raids feeling very little importance. What does the difference mean? The difference means I get more emotionally attached to the one that feels important and that’s the one I want to log into. Story is everything.
Now given what I mentioned about story, I hope you can tie in some good substance into what is happening, it doesn’t necessarily have to be big and grandiose, but it has to feel meaningful, other than loot why is my character wanting to go here? What purpose is my character in this mmo world?
Giving a really great identity to the character helps shape the story and it pays off tenfold.
My biggest concern is I hope this allows for smaller groups and pugs, not everyone will have a pre-made group ready to do this content. Some players don’t even belong in guilds so making it accommodating to everyone would be my biggest worry
A: Looked good! Having the world change around you, with animated elements like the bridge, was a very nice touch!
Q: What are your favorite open-world dungeon elements that you would like us to incorporate? Please provide examples when applicable.
A: Not exactly open world, as it was a separate zone (not instanced), but my personal favorite was Sol B from Everquest. It had all the right elements. Content ranging from mid level to raiding, a mix of creatures in different regions, rare spawns with loot that remained relevant for a long time, and a raid boss (Lord Nagafen) as the final encounter. And trains! "Choo choo!"
Fun fact! If the raid failed, the dragon would summon the corpses of all the raiders, and add them to his hoard. (In Everquest, you woke up naked, and had to loot your corpse to regain your equipment. And you lost 20% of your XP and could delevel. You needed your corpse to get some of that lost XP back throught the use of a ressurection spell from a cleric. A failed Nagafen raid could require a second raid to get your gear back. Everquest raids - at least early - could be as many as 72 people".
Q: Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the area of Carphin?
A: Will there be story lines that span different states of a PoI? What happens if I am on story line that sends me here during the norma" state, and arrives after it changed to the corrupted state? I am guessing the story line will simply pause, and continue once the event has ended?
Q: Have you experienced areas in MMOs that adaptively change and are dynamic? What do you like or dislike about those environments?
A: Yes, first time in World of Warcraft (Wrath of the Lich King) where different quest stages would change the surrounding. In WoW, this was done (I believe) by having multiple zones overlapping, and simply loading me into a different instance, so not entierly comparable. I like the option to re-visit old locations, and having them gated behind a quest stage (like in WoW) was not something I really appreciated.
Q: What are your favorite story arc elements in other MMOs and what would you like to see implemented into Ashes of Creation?
A: SWTOR had the absolute best story arcs of any MMO I have played. Outside of MMO's I much enjoyed the humour of Borderlands (the first two games). This kind of humour is difficult though. It tends to be really bad if you dont get it right.
Many MMO's I have played tend to introduce players with trivial tasks and quests that aren't engaging. This often leads me into a pattern of skipping quest dialogues, and missing out the better stories that unlock at higher levels.
A few tips
- Avoid forcing me to care about an individual (NPC) that I just met.
- Dont try to elaborate the simple tasks, keep them simple.
- Employ a solid comedy-writer to add some one-liners and slap-stick humour where appropriate.
- Have player choices really impact the outcome of a story.
The final one is huge! If my choices have no effect, dont bother giving me options. If you decide to give players options, make sure they really impact what happens around me, and how NPC's react to me. This is likely more challenging and time-consuming to pull off - but worth it in my opinion. Multiple choice quests that all end up the same place regardless of decision is a cheap ploy, and should be avoided.
SWTOR got this right.
Personally, I would rather have a few rich story arcs that really pulls me in, and give me a few meaningful choices along the way that will branch out in a range of different endings, with the rest of the character progression being pure mob grind, as opposed to having to complete an endless chain of pointless and boring quests (like fetch x of this, or kill y of that). Then again, I did enjoy the static camps of Everquest.
I thought the mobs look pretty boring, and all so samie
Too much flash for not enough substance.
Open world dungeons, recipe for disaster… end up being an easy run for all, as the numbers at the start will be so great.
Will add a bit more once I watched it again, but tbh, I was not overly impressed..it just seemed boring.
This post shows how good I feel the direction the Carphin took, so good that more stuff in that direction should be made
A bloody sea dungeon sounds cool.
I thought the stream was very good and enjoyed a lot of what I saw and heard regarding the story arc system and the environment. Here are some points of feedback that may or may not be a part of the current direction.
1. Good narrative outcomes that don't inhibit gameplay
The most imortant part of a story arc, is obviously the story itself. I think its important to make sure the narratives are good without taking away from the other gameplay elements and player freedom/expression.
Here is an amazing example of a very engaging, immersive, and interesting narrative being told, while still having unique paths/outcomes, moral choices to make, and is told organically through the gameplay.
2. Elements of mystery in the story arcs
I think its important for mystery to be a big part of the story, to get players invested into progressing through the story and piecing together clues to solve the mystery. Based on this, I think there should be certain "higher risk" arcs with much deeper mystery elements to uncover, requiring more detective work and world knowledge to uncover the secrets, for a greater reward and more satisfying story arc.
Here is an example that talks about a game that does well at setting up a good mystery in the story that gets the player invested in uncovering the truth.
3. Freedom to access specific story arcs
I love the idea that that different choices can lead to different stories. I think its important to support multiple playstyles and paths to reach specific story arcs. It should help with this by tieing the story arc triggers to ambiguous goals that can be accomplished in a variety of ways.
4. Systemic and emergent story arcs, not overly scripted
I think its important for the story to feel emergent, thus, there should be many different arcs to reward and account for the various types of gameplay approaches and interactions of different systems. It would be way less satisfying if players think of creative ways to manipulate and interact with the different systems, but most just end up leading to the same story arcs as other approaches. Players should be rewarded for their creativity with many possible story outcomes. There should be lots of ways to clash systems together to create emergent stories, and the game should track your actions to tell you a more personalized story based on your choices.
5. Music tells a story alongside the narrative of the story arcs
I think its important that the music tells a story that is juxtaposed directly alongside the narrative itself. This can make a compelling and satisfying form of progression/reward for the player and enhance the experience in a meaningful way.
Here are some examples of music being used to tell a story that fits cohesively alongside the rest of the game, while also rewarding the player with musical medleys as they progress through the story. I think it would be a huge missed opportunity to neglect this form of story telling.
6. Other elements of good story arcs (from previous relevant post)
This ties in to my post in the lore characters/story dev discussion thread, so I will reinforce the points I already made there by copy/pasting directly below, since that is my feedback for the design of the story arcs themselves, the character design within the story arcs, and player interaction with the story arc system.
How do you like interacting with the characters and story within the story arcs?
A) Playstyle/role-play options and expression
I should always be thinking about how to handle an interaction with a character, through having options such as
1. Stealth (should I sneak past this character?)
2. Persuasion (should I try to convince this character to do what I want?)
3. combat (Should I fight this character?)
4. bribery (should I bribe this character to do what I want?)
5. pacifism (should I not do anything at all to this character?)
6. Traversal (should I run/climb away from this character?)
7. Political sabotage (Should I get my allies to deal with this character, or pit my enemies against each other?)
8. Dynamic blend (should I use a combination of these options as I adapt to what is going on?)
9. etc.
I think its extremely important to allow players to role play these various interactions, for both gameplay depth, and role-play/moral expression purposes.
Here is a video that does case studies on how to make conversational interactions very fun and interesting
-A big part of designing for player expression, stems from npc interactions that present problems that can be dealt with in various and emergent ways, rather than individual/static solutions.
The benefits to this type of overall design approach is talked about in this video
And an example of how this is done in action when designing npc interactions, through a variety of potential gameplay/role-play options is explained in this video, which details a specific side quest that has these properties.
some other case studies (less relevant to this specific discussion), but relevant to the other interactable role-play options include:
GMTK stealth series (multiple videos)
GMTK "making movement a mechanic"
GMTK "climbing in games"
-All found on that same youtube channel if you are interested.
B- Invisible choices
This has made for some of the most interesting experiences in games for me, because it makes you actually think outside of the box about what options you could possibly take, and what the game might allow you to do or how it might allow you to behave, which can make for some very excellent role-play moments and satisfying emergent experiences.
This video explains what this means and how to do it well
I loved how final fantasy 6 does this, to create some very powerful moments where it puts the player in control of deciding on their own what is important to them and how to go about accomplishing those goals, without holding the player's hand.
A great example of this is when the player is on the "floating continent", and the story has your actual assasin companion named Shadow, stay behind to hold off the enemies while you try to escape the floating continent before it explodes, so you make your way to the one and only aircraft to escape. This was a crazy moment, because you assume the story will unfold regardless of what happens. This is not the case, as you actually have to make the invisible choice of waiting for him until the very last seconds before the continent explodes, for him to come running and leave with you. If you don't, then he dies and you lose him as a group member the rest of the game. This makes for an impactful moment, because once you realize that there are invisibke choices like this, you actually have to play the game with intention and thought, you have to constantly be thinking about what/who you care about, because there are consequences to your actions, and you have to think about how to ensure those goals are met through your invisible choices, since you could easily miss potential options if you aren't careful.
There are tons of lessons to be learned from final fantasy 6 in regards to worldbuilding/invisble choices. I think it also does this really well when these invisible choices allow you to play an active role in npc character progression through your knowledge of the character and world.
- An example of this is:
You have a group member named Gau, who in the story is portrayed as a child who was raised by wild monsters. He has a mechanic where he can leap on to monsters, and if he is on a monster when after the battle ends, then he will disapprear from your party. Well, this is cool for several reasons. The first is that the actual mechanics of leaping/being gone from party are used to establish his character and lore. The second- is that if you think about his character and how he is portrayed, you might realize that if you actually leave him in that area for long enough something might happen. This does end up being the case, because if you actually come back later he actually learns abilities from the monster that he stuck to over that period of time. Games normally stick to a predictable formula, so when you are rewarded for thinking outside the box like this, it is really fun and interesting- so that is just one of many great examples of invisible choices the player can make.
C) Kowledge-based gameplay
If there is a specific quest that revolves around mastering a particular task to get a relevant reward, it would be awesome to see an npc that also has that same reward, and if the player is rewarded for deducing that the npc has experience with that same particular task, just based on that gameplay element of observing them in possesion of that reward. (such as a fishing quest where you recieve a specific rod built to help with the challenge of catching a specific fish in the game, and later you see an npc with that same rod, so you assume he is trying/had tried in the past to catch the same fish- so you bring the fish to him when you catch it to see his reaction, and are rewarded for that kind of deduction and world/character knowledge.)
-Not only should knowledge of characters in the lore matter, but knowledge of the lore in general should mean something and tie in to gameplay, rather than just being something interesting to know. Its always so cool when games hide "lost logs" of adventurers that you can find, but most games just leave it at that, as a way of understanding the world- rather than rewarding you for that understanding through things like filling those logs with gameplay-impacting info like:
1. hinting at secret areas you can actually find, such as that adventurer hinting at a magical portal shortcut they found, and the player can figure out how to activate it and use it as an alternative caravan route.
2. helpful gameplay advice like nuanced behaviors and mechanics of enemies that the adventurer experienced, like how certain enemies from different areas interact with each other
3. knowledge of lore characters that can actually be leveraged (such as the fishing rod example)
4. It would be cool if certain "logs" (or other types of character/lore/world information) only make sense when put into context with other logs/info. such as one log having the adventurer hinting at how specific npc mechanics interact with a specific location/prop in the environment to create a portal- but another log referencing an event that they mysteriously vanished to another area but you wouldn't understand that unless you read the log about them opening the portal.
-A game that executed really well on using this design approach of player interactivity and observation to gain knowledge of the characters and world, is Deus ex mankind divided, as explained in this analysis video.
-I think using great detective games as a reference for how to make lore/character/world knowledge compelling and fun gameplay would be a great idea. These videos explain the design principles of this type of fun gameplay, which I think would work extremely well if adapted into the setting of Ashes.
D) NPC characters as a navigational tool
This topic is explored in these 2 videos
E) Customizable story/experience told through emergent gameplay
-Watching all the complexities of the game interact with each other based on my decisions as a player, is the most engaging and immersive way of presenting stories, from an interactive gameplay perspective.
I will mention later how curated story can be told through these gameplay systems and how to connect systematic gameplay and character/worldbuilding stories, detailed in the "Telling stories with systems" video.
- I also want to be able to connect with characters I like, to use them for my benefit and build relationship with them. I would like to express dislike for characters I don't like, and be able to manipulate those characters for my benefit as well. Its always cool when you can recruit character's you like, or when your character can gain powers or cosmetics that show flavor from characters you have interacted with and help show your character's story.
Overall, interacting with npcs should feel organic, compelling, challenging, and epic in its gameplay and its consequences
Where do you want to see yourself within the narrative of the story arcs?
A) Cohesive worldbuilding
- I want the story to change based on my actions, and for the game to show me my impact on both larger and smaller details in the world, such as lore character progression and affecting the lives of npcs.
This video talks about designers can create more believable worlds from large to small scale, by using characters and environments to support the narrative.
It would be awesome to see this kind of worldbuilding in Ashes, especially when paired with the dynamic story arcs, which could be reflected by changes in the state of the world around us at all levels.
B- Personalized story/consequences
- I want the game to track my experience and tell a story that also relates to my specific experiences. Things like actually earning a hero status in an organica eay through your actual accomplishments, resulting in being treated differently based on those achievements. Also, things like keeping a track record of decisions/experiences and react to them through things like having characters reference your achievements and habits
Here is a video example of this in action
Another game that did this well was metal gear solid, where the game tracks your actions and surprises you with different outcomes while recapping actions you took to lead you to that point. This is a very interesting way of doing character progression, based on tracking how the player interacts with different lore characters and the choices they make along the way.
C) Moral expression/role-play
- I want a story/interactions with characters that allow me to role-play through choices with moral ambiguity. Make the player's choices themselves part of the story through morality ambiguous choices that allow for role playing, and tell a story in and of themselves about the player themselves, within the overarching narrative of that player's experience.
D) Immersive/experiential story-telling (Show don't tell)
-I like story moments where my actual expectation of mechanics are subverted for story telling purposes, such as dieing during a fight, but an npc swoops in and saves you from death and its penalties, using game mechanics, and not a cutscene or reading about it later. Or, falling asleep somewhere but you actually wake up somewhere else instead, rather than the expected location. Situations like these where mechanics actually function differently and lore characrers can affect how mechanics work as a part of the story, can lead to really cool stories and be very immersive.
These videos address how interesting stories are best told through mechanics, systems, and gameplay, basically for the players to experience and interact with the story themselves, rather than observe it as a bystander through things like dialogue and cutscenes.
E) Interesting narratives
There are also some other elements in the story that I tend to like as well. I like when there is a sense of mystery, suspense, drama, and unpredictability, and overall "uneasiness" in the narrative, where everything seems okay on the surface but there is a serious threat building up/pulling the strings behind the scenes. I like when characters aren't who you expect them to be as you discover more about them. I love when unexpected relationships form by characters crossing paths, who may have had separate story lines up to that point. I like when there is a "bigger picture" in the narrative, that you the player have to learn more about and become involved in. Some of the stories that stuck with me the most are about thinking you are familiar with characters, who then subvert your expectations (like in Star Wars- Anakin Skywalker's transition to Darth Vader, or Chancellor Palpatine actually being Darth Sideous). These stories also have complexities in what factors are involved and how these could cause the story to branch in different directions- but ultimately come down to very simple but key decisions, made in key moments, by key characters. These types of stories are very interesting to me. I also like when there is a lot of strategic planning and thinking amongst the characters, resulting in meaningful actions that characters take, and a more believable world with reasoning behind everything, some of which the player may not find out about or understand until it is revealed later. I also love when there is a lot of politics and deception in the story as well.
I haven't put a whole lot of though into what makes great narratives, but there is plenty of inspiration to take from movies/games, in order to ensure that the narratives that stem from different emergent gameplay outcomes and story arcs are always interesting in the story they are telling.
-Overall I want the story to feel emergent, organic, personal, suprising, and philisophical, and worth being invested into.
What do you want to see out of important characters within the story arcs?
A) Complexities in characters/world
-interesting and unique characters with deep personality/traits/behaviors/motivations
(to allow for more interesting npc interactions and kowledge-based gameplay)
I talked earlier about how characters should have "breadth" in how they can be interacted with, but I would also like to see characters have depth as well, in how they can be interacted with, to allow for more compelling/inreresting interactions, and character progression.
I think a game that did this really well is the recent "Triangle Strategy" rpg by square enix.
There are various story arcs in the game, determined by your actions taken. The interesting part is that these actions were taken by your party as a whole, so a majority had to agree through casting votes on a "scale of conviction", which acts as a means to an end to determine the group's course of action based on each character's personal convictions.
Each character has their own values and ways of making decisions and dealing with problems, creating some morally ambiguous decisions that need to be made. The fun part about all of this character depth, is that the player has an opportunity before each vote is done, to takle an active role in convincing other party members to take a specific cours of action. This means, that not only do you have to wrestle with the morality of the decision after hearing each character's opinion, but then you have to take your understanding of each character into account when reasoning with them to convinve them why your decision is best. This is very fun and interesting to try to disect a character's thought procress and use that to accomplish your own personal goal as a player. It also provides opportunities to learn more about different characters as you explore and uncover clues about different character's history, that you can use to help sway their opinions.
This wouldn't be possible without have that character depth, so I think designing characters in this way would make "invisible choices" that much more compelling and interesting through the amount of possibilities for character interactions and outcomes, and how these interactions could have systematic consequences with other parts of the game.
B- Believable characters/world
Its important that character's are believable even when gameplay is factored in.
Characters should actually impact gameplay when involved, their bahaviors should make sense during the gameplayand reflect their character accurately. If their is an escort mission where some strong npcs are helping you, they should actually be strong when fighting and not just stand a watch while you do everything. Obviously this would need to make sense gameplay wise, its just important to make sure there is consistency and believability.
-Its always cool when characters with conflicting and/or common interest with each other, but can actually act on those through gameplay in emergent ways, and there can be politics/drama between characters, not only in just the lore/story aspects
- A big part of believability is when the worldbuilding/lore is consistent with the gameplay and it makes sense. It seems obvious but some ganes tend to mess this up. This can provide fun opportunities where lore actually ties into the gameplay and has value for teaching the player about certain mechanics/intaractions, so there is a reason to take the time to explore and learn the lore in the world.
C) Reactive/dynamic characters/world
- I would like for characters and the world to be reactive, yet still have an element of unpredictability in how they progress and behave.
- I think their should be reactivity in all aspects of the character, not just what they say, in but in how they fight, and their behaviors and routines in the world.
-it would be especially cool if npcs in the open world were complex in their design, so they could decide to align themselves with different players based on player actions/reputation, based on the state of the server, and/or what their specific motivations and goals are.
D) Immersive use of characters/world
This will make information much more enjoyable to acquire and easier to digest, while encouraging more fun gameplay and atmosphere.
-This could apply to lore characters being used as a tutorial early on, (maybe through showing a strong lore character show off late-game skills in the starting area) to give the player a taste of end-game experiences/give goals to player, which is a nice quality of life feature relevant to skills and gear progression.
-Half life 2 did a great job at giving the player tutorials and teaching the player through observing the characters and environments around them.
-some other games that have extemely immersive characters and worlds, and do great at "showing not telling" are metro exodus, and deus ex mankind divided, as talked about in this analysis video, and the one I provided in an earlier section for deus ex.
E) Relevant and satisfying rewards
1. an experienced mage npc teaching you their unique ability they use
2. finding a bandit camp and stealing their unique weapons/gear
3. being able to hire a unique mercenary from that group you found
4. etc.
-just be careful with rewards, as they can end up being counterproducrive if done wrong
Flexible vs unique rewards:
Just to quickly touch on this topic of rewards since it is relevant to my point on world/character knowledge being rewarded- It is somewhat of a conundrum because generally you want rewards to feel unique to the content you are doing and to reward players to try different types of gameplay and leave their comfort zone, but you also want rewards to be flexible for the player to be able to progress in their preferred content, because everyone has their preferences.
1. If you make rewards flexible (like skill points), the content feels the same, and the player will always just choose their preferred reward and never really progress in that other type of content
2. if you do static rewards for different types of content, yes it feels unique, but then its unfulffilling and the player is never really encouraged to try different content
Thats why I think its important for rewards to be a blend of both, to have unique rewards for that content- this could be a unique "traversal" ability taught from finding and interacting with a specific hermit npc, to encourage players to explore and progress in their exploration, but also have things like skill points as rewards to give them the freedom to also progress in their preferred content
Thanks for reading!
Very good in context of the artstyle.
What are your favorite open-world dungeon elements that you would like us to incorporate? Please provide examples when applicable.
I think these threads hits a lot of good points.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/52630/tower-of-creation
This is about Systems and ideas mostly seen in L2.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/52630/tower-of-creation
This is more about how dungeons areas can be gated, triggered and evolve.
And also about incorporating mechanics like caravans, building of infrastructure (e.g. bridges) and extraction kind of gameplay loops like "The Division and escape of tarkov".
In generall i would say dungeons (even if they are open world) are a good point to break out of the rule sets from the general world.
You can "gamify" the basic rule sets (like corruption) a lot,
design the dungeons for smaller and bigger groups through conflict of interest, set up objectives like extraction zones/king of the hill objectives/keys to open areas/push caravans towards an objective,
rethink staple features like respawning or reviving to build different experiences.
-> with the goal build entirely different experiences for the players.
Also usage of wards, traps, disguise mechanics in bushes. Some moba mechanics that could work well for making it more of a strategy driven experience.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the area of Carphin?
A concern i have is the scale of the dungeon.
While the dungeon seems to be the biggest POI for several Nodes in the area, I got the impression that the dungeon can only hold like 3 parties/ 24 Players simultanouesly.
Rough calc: 10.000 Players / 85 nodes * 5 nodes in proximity= 588 players in proximity.
I feel like 60 people / 10% is the minimum threshhold to aim at.
In times of high interest in the dungeon and story arc events, this number could very well exceeded by the factor of 10, which means a lot of conflict, which i like, but the numbers seem to be too extreme imo.
Have you experienced areas in MMOs that adaptively change and are dynamic? What do you like or dislike about those environments?
Played a bit of Guild Wars 2. Their story and quest system seemed to be dynamic and fun, but after a few times they got stale quick and you just farmed them.
The long respawn intervals of the events Intrepid seems to go for, should counter that effect.
What are your favorite story arc elements in other MMOs and what would you like to see implemented into Ashes of Creation?
Meteorites that drop and bring contested resources to vera.
Dungeon bosses that break out once you trigger something.
Like this post from @Kilion from the 2. thread.
(EXAMPLE) Lets say there is a mine themed dungeon and portion of the mine dug into an old underground structure only to be abandoned there after some parasitic lifeform had killed a bunch of miners there. The mine was completely abandoned after a bunch of Earth/Rock/Crystal Elementals raided the place.
Group 1 takes a mine cart full of dynamite from the old storage facility to the outer wall of the structure and blows it up. The passage is clear but not stable, it sends tremors through the dungeon, notifying other groups that the passage has been opened but the explosion also has woken up an Earth Elemental Boss, who now starts moving through the mine shafts. Even though Group 1 triggered this event, they won't be the ones to encounter this Boss in this "Run", they can only encounter the Elemental Boss by exiting the dungeon and going back in from above. The triggered Earth Elemental proceeds through the dungeon, destroys the remaining dynamite in the storage house and then goes on to seal up the wall to the underground structure Group 1 opened because the parasites are a danger to the Elementals.
Group 2 who is also in the dungeon, decides to fight the Elemental Boss, they can attack him at the dynamite storage and use that dynamite to get an easier kill, but there is only a limited amount of time for that opportunity. If they don't succeed before the dynamite is completely destroyed the Elemental moves on to the breach in the mine and seals it up. While he channels his powers to seal the hole, Group 2 catches up and faces him again, but Group 3 has also waited here for the Elemental. They fight, Group 3 takes out Group 2 and then takes on the Elemental. The breach has been sealed but the Elemental has been slain. While all that was going on in that part of the dungeon, Group 4 has gone and taken a closer look at the resting place of that Earth Elemental and found some valuable stuff there as well as another area of the dungeon. If the Earth Elemental had survived to return to his resting spot after he sealed the breach only to find that it was looted, he would would go into a frenzy and enrage the other Elemental creatures in the mine as well. Also: If Group 1 abandons their run or wipes in the passage they have opened, a parasitic type of mob swarms out into the mine and takes over the Elementals.
@Azherae
for some reason, the timestamp in their url isn't working (t=858)
Maybe this link works better:
(here)
but you assumed correctly - it's the part where Narc talks about the particle effects.
I have a feeling it's more about a clash from all the bloom (?) from the atmosphere lighting.
My only suggestion would be to make the transition more of an event in and of itself. When the conditions for the launch of the story arc are met, the zone the arc is located in gets a generalized alert. Something along the lines of telling the players that the tower is becoming more active, with a countdown timer till the launch of the arc. The timer would then facilitate 2 phases of transition.
The first being a slow type, that happens over the course of the entire timer. An example for Carphin would be the clouds. In the beginning, you'd have that initial blast, causing dark clouds to form around the tower. As the timer counts down the clouds spread throughout the zone. This would reach it's peak when the second phase of the transition hits.
The second phase would happen when around an hour or 30 mins remains till the start of the arc. This is where we'd start having more of the atmospheric transition, the blood effects, and finally as the timer is about to hit zero, the raising of the bridge (or other set piece for other story arcs) that allow the players access.
It was not bad at all, for sure. The direction is good, but it needs a lot of refinement. Even if i like the possibility of phasing a landmark like this. The changes implemented so far were like adding more, than really transform. But i suppose it's hard to compare when we didn't see the tower of carphin without the event. In short : Not bad, good direction need a lot more polish.
What are your favorite open-world dungeon elements that you would like us to incorporate? Please provide examples when applicable.
Mazes, Riddles, Invetigation, small puzzles, but also community puzzles (Like Destiny 2 did in the past for the launch of a new dungeon / raid where the entire community brain storm to find clues and crack secrets), Multiples routes (GW2), some procedural elements (TESO), small rogue like elements for replayability maybe, split players from each other and integrate player communication into the design of a trial / boss. (Destiny 2 again), shortcuts. choices that matter.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the area of Carphin?
Lore was great, would like to maybe have some hints also in game, or pieces of lore scattered that can precise the situation.
My concerns are as follows : I know it's the first you showed us, and it's an alpha, it will probably get better as more you will do it. But actually, the changes feels like not that drastic or impactfull. or should i say the impact is lessened by the way it is currently implemented. Fog, Hue, Some Effects, added on certain places, well it's just effects added over what is existing. I understand from a developper standpoint that is not easy to think, create 2 or more variant versions of an area. But the piling of effects, look a little cheap to me actually. It's noticeable. On the other side, the bridge by exemple is a great way to feel an impact on a zone we already now in a normal state.
In short : Piling Up effects feels a little cheap. I did not feel a real "Transformation" of the zone, it was a little crude. If effects is the way you want to go with this system it need a lot more polishing. That said the bridge was a great idea and ideally I would like a little less special effects and more change in that genre.
Edit : Maybe it's not having effects in itself who was bad, but the effects themselves. The "Blood rivers" on the walls is more a gaz / mist than really a liquid. There placements on the buildings (7:12 in the YT video) does not integrate naturally. Vines are a good idea too but the quality difference between the normal state and the quality of the assets is too noticeable. Texture quality / Effects quality were too much behind in polish / quality than the rest of the place.
Have you experienced areas in MMOs that adaptively change and are dynamic? What do you like or dislike about those environments?
WoW, TESO, GW2, FF XIV do it all in their own way. I think it's a great feature and a necessary one to feel the change, it's a good way to rediscover an area we already know too. I like it a lot. But the more beautiful and detailed is the base game, the more work is needed to make an impact on the world from a developper standpoint. In WoW with Cartoony / Low poly art style it is pretty easy to do. What i dislike about theses features it's that it is often either too much (Effects, Lighting etc) or not enough (Just some broken barrrels, and a hue change) in Lost Ark by example.
What are your favorite story arc elements in other MMOs and what would you like to see implemented into Ashes of Creation?
Politics, court intrigues, investigations, mistery, drama, deaths of characters that we care about and that have meaning for the player, some more laid back and maybe a little comical to let go of the pressure some times. Spying, infiltration, robbery ...
J'ai vraiment aimé la présentation du donjon, j'adore connaitre les lieux qui m'entoure , l'histoire, le lore ....
Par contre, je trouve que certains sorts font trop feux d'artifice, trop lumineux.
Pour ma part, ce que je voudrais voir dans un mmo vous allez me prendre pour un fou... C'est rencontrer des lieux fermées qui laisse place à mon imagination, peut etre une nouvelle instance ou par exemble des passage secrets souterrain qui apres avoir reussi une serie de quétes me permet de débloquer une porte magique naine pour passer sous une chaine de montagne. (je sais... lotr)
Mais aussi de récupérer des livres qui parlent de personnages importants , de guerre ancestrale, mobs ,des trophès etc pour customiser mon trou de hobbit.
Serveur pvp , ce qui veux dire piraterie donc l'ile de la tortue : p je vous laisse imaginer un lieux plein de débauche pardon pegi 12 .... zut
Pas de rangs pvp extérieur PL me please vive la creditcart ...., des exécutions en pvp certains penseront peut etre aux finish de age of conan en mmorpg.
Pas de bikini dans la boutique, impossible de ventre des cosmetic à l'hotel des ventes Vous pensez à archeage nn ?
Pavé César
Cordialement