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Will it pay to harvest the harvesters?

zapperzapper Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
Rather than spending time harvesting, will it pay to instead, flag for PVP and harvest a few harvesters?

I'd think if I can easily clear any corruption received, that rather than spend hours gathering, say lumber,
that I could spend 10 minutes harvesting a few gatherers who have spent those hours gathering timber.

In other words, will harvesters need to be watching over their shoulders or gathering with a team, or
unloading often, so that they don't lose a significant amount of their work?
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Comments

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited April 2023
    Generally no, but sometimes yes.

    Player inventories are going to be fairly small. It is unlikely to be worth it for players to gain corruption just to take a percentage (you do not take all they have on them) of one inventory worth of raw materials.

    If a player has a pack mule full of material though, it may be worth it.

    The above is basically speculation based on the fact that Intrepid need to balance corruption in Ashes to the point where it is sometimes considered worth it, but not to the point where the game will just be a gank box.

    The above is likely to be about the aim Intrepid have for balance.
  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Not really no, and I don't think that was ever the goal of the pvp systems in the game. In the full loot, fully unrestricted/no consequences, pvp games that I've played, it's a lot easier said than done to solely "harvest the harvesters" without ever needing to do any harvesting yourself.

    So you can imagine in Ashes, with all of it's restrictions and penalties, it will not really be possible. As of right now, it will barely happen at all. And that's straight from the CEO's mouth, in so many words. Still a lot of testing that needs to be done though.

    The answer will probably evolve through testing and even post launch. But no I wouldn't expect that to be the case ever. Except for maybe on the lawless open seas, depending on how important the resources are that can be found there.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    zapper wrote: »
    Rather than spending time harvesting, will it pay to instead, flag for PVP and harvest a few harvesters?

    I'd think if I can easily clear any corruption received, that rather than spend hours gathering, say lumber,
    that I could spend 10 minutes harvesting a few gatherers who have spent those hours gathering timber.

    In other words, will harvesters need to be watching over their shoulders or gathering with a team, or
    unloading often, so that they don't lose a significant amount of their work?

    you can expect people to try to fight others with the intention of making them flag and killing them to get mats, but becoming corrupted for some mats? probs not, unless u wanna risk it cuz someone just looted a super rare mat.

    you can expect groups to have 1 player or alt go corrupted while the greens pick up the dropped loot, maybe in some areas of the game.

    you can also expect people to try to get gatherers killed by mobs, but this should easily be avoidable for the most part.
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Keep in mind that just because someone is harvesting that does not mean that they are a pushover. They will often fight back. When they do, sometimes they will kill YOU and you will be one dropping your stuff. Sometimes they will be stronger and a better fighter than you are, sometimes they will have nearby friends you didn't spot, etc. So you may win half the time and you may lose half the time. Sometimes you will go red and their friends will catch you and you will drop a lot, possibly including your gear.

    Go ahead and try it, OP, and see how it works out. ;)
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    Only if you are at war with another Node as this circumstances will cause the two of you both to be flagged for PvP to one another.

    Still, even without any supporting systems for robbery, players with big amounts of harvested materials will have to be careful, as the amount of resources that one could loot from a fully stacked player could be enough to entice risk loving players, especially if there are means nearby that allow the cleansing of corruption.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • Taleof2CitiesTaleof2Cities Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Generally no, but sometimes yes.

    If a player has a pack mule full of material though, it may be worth it.

    I don't often agree with Noaani, but this is the correct answer.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    People will harvest you for your armor and weapons.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Generally no, but sometimes yes.

    If a player has a pack mule full of material though, it may be worth it.

    I don't often agree with Noaani, but this is the correct answer.

    By the way, me too
  • BaSkA_9x2BaSkA_9x2 Member, Alpha Two
    Yes, no, always, never: it depends exclusively on your mentality/playstyle.
    • It's worth to flag to attack farmers, it's fun.
    • It's not worth to flag to attack farmers, it's boring.

    It also depends on how the game works which nobody really knows yet, because things that were announce during Kickstarter have been changed, so no one really knows how many changes have also been made regarding PvP and % of loot on death.

    Maybe most people will fight back so they lose less resources, get a free TP but you don't become corrupted. Maybe most people won't fight back so you get corrupted even though they lose more resources. Alpha 2 might or might not help test this, so just wait and see.
    🎶Galo é Galo o resto é bosta🎶
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    depends if ur at war with them then u can farm them all day for small amounts of goodies, otr u might get a loot pinata cause he farmed without banking for so long :P
    otherwise u cant kill to many greens without going red which is bad.
  • zapper wrote: »
    Rather than spending time harvesting, will it pay to instead, flag for PVP and harvest a few harvesters?

    I'd think if I can easily clear any corruption received, that rather than spend hours gathering, say lumber,
    that I could spend 10 minutes harvesting a few gatherers who have spent those hours gathering timber.

    In other words, will harvesters need to be watching over their shoulders or gathering with a team, or
    unloading often, so that they don't lose a significant amount of their work?

    Well, for sure it will be faster if you jackpot the right gatherer.

    But this game is not about PvP, it is about a magical dynamic world, so your gank actions will go against the dynamic world of Verra. The dynamic world of Verra is the star in the game, not the PvP.

    You better talk to your mayor and start a node war, so all your people can go for roams in the enemy node and farm their harvesters.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • HinotoriHinotori Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think that while people will certainly do this in the beginning the social aspect of Ashes will curb any harvester farming once nodes become established and it will become less a random occurrence and used more as a war tactic on people of hostile nodes.
    xrds4ytk7z7j.gif
    The world is beautiful whenever you're here.
    And all the emptiness inside disappears.
  • Natasha wrote: »
    I think that while people will certainly do this in the beginning the social aspect of Ashes will curb any harvester farming once nodes become established and it will become less a random occurrence and used more as a war tactic on people of hostile nodes.

    Yes, ganking the gatheres through wars will make corruption obsolete
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • SathragoSathrago Member
    edited April 2023
    If you want to "harvest the harvesters" You will want to learn how to sail a boat. No joking, this is the best place to do it. Catching people transporting materials between islands or to/from the mainland will be the best, but you could probably also make a sport out of hunting down fishers and other gatherers diving into the sea or searching the islands for rare materials.
    8vf24h7y7lio.jpg
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited April 2023
    Sathrago wrote: »
    If you want to "harvest the harvesters" You will want to learn how to sail a boat. No joking, this is the best place to do it. Catching people transporting materials between islands or to/from the mainland will be the best, but you could probably also make a sport out of hunting down fishers and other gatherers diving into the sea or searching the island for rare materials.

    Living by a choke point or by a pipe route (one way in, one way out) is like having a pond of infinite fish :)
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Kilion wrote: »
    Only if you are at war with another Node as this circumstances will cause the two of you both to be flagged for PvP to one another.
    Veeshan wrote: »
    depends if ur at war with them then u can farm them all day for small amounts of goodies

    There is no loot drop from kills during guild and node wars. There are no death penalties at all. This was recently confirmed in the live stream before last.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited April 2023
    Okeydoke wrote: »
    Kilion wrote: »
    Only if you are at war with another Node as this circumstances will cause the two of you both to be flagged for PvP to one another.
    Veeshan wrote: »
    depends if ur at war with them then u can farm them all day for small amounts of goodies

    There is no loot drop from kills during guild and node wars. There are no death penalties at all. This was recently confirmed in the live stream before last.

    But they say "pvp events", I don't think this includes fights in the middle of the woods with no events going on even when there is an active war going on
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    "Death penalties do not apply to objective-based events (such as caravans, guild wars, and node sieges).[6]"

    Death penalties is clickable, where you can see what the definition of death penalties is.

    The wiki where that is located. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Guild_wars

    The livestream where it was answered.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FxHjg0YgiM

    Around the 1 hour and 30 minute mark.

    We are desperately in need of a more pvp focused content creator to keep people up to date about what's happening to the game.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited April 2023
    Okeydoke wrote: »
    We are desperately in need of a more pvp focused content creator to keep people up to date about what's happening to the game.

    Now I see it, Steven included the guild wars entirely.... shit!
    This is REALLY BAD! Why even have a war then? Fuck this

    Well, like I said in recent threads, AoC is not about PvP...this game is not about the love for PvP, the PvP in this game only serves the purpose of serving Verra's dynamic world

    This is why there's some weird PvP decisions in AoC... PvP is there just a means for Verra to unfold it's dynamic world... Verra is the star under the spotlight and PvP is not
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    Okeydoke wrote: »
    We are desperately in need of a more pvp focused content creator to keep people up to date about what's happening to the game.

    Now I see it, Steven included the guild wars entirely.... shit!
    This is REALLY BAD! Why even have a war then? Fuck this

    Well, like I said in recent threads, AoC is not about PvP...this game is not about the love for PvP, the PvP in this game only serves the purpose of serving Verra's dynamic world

    This is why there's some weird PvP decisions in AoC... PvP is there just a means for Verra to unfold it's dynamic world... Verra is the star under the spotlight and PvP is not

    I still think they can make it work, but... honestly, your new perspective probably IS the best one to have if one is coming into this game looking for a specific experience.

    I don't think we can say it's 'really bad' though, even if some of us don't like it or feel as though it makes 'sense' because 'sense' in this case is as you noted.

    In the end, we mostly just need to hope it works, and works better than AA2.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    lol. Well Arya, I can't say I subscribe to all the same genocide of carebear notions that you do. But yes I agree, the game is being carebearized before our eyes. On multiple fronts.

    Other than the open sea change, almost every change/comment since then has been squarely in the realm of anti pvp. And the open sea change was only made because Steven had to. There was no other realistic choice. Given how harsh he intended to make the corruption system. And given that Archeage 2 is coming with it's revolutionary naval system. And given that 6 year olds can deal with open pvp rules in Sea of Thieves. You can't show up to a Ferrari race with a bicycle.

    That said, for the few years now that I've followed this game, loot drop during guild/node wars was never a thing. It was conveniently left blank, unanswered.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited April 2023
    Azherae wrote: »
    Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    Okeydoke wrote: »
    We are desperately in need of a more pvp focused content creator to keep people up to date about what's happening to the game.

    Now I see it, Steven included the guild wars entirely.... shit!
    This is REALLY BAD! Why even have a war then? Fuck this

    Well, like I said in recent threads, AoC is not about PvP...this game is not about the love for PvP, the PvP in this game only serves the purpose of serving Verra's dynamic world

    This is why there's some weird PvP decisions in AoC... PvP is there just a means for Verra to unfold it's dynamic world... Verra is the star under the spotlight and PvP is not

    I still think they can make it work, but... honestly, your new perspective probably IS the best one to have if one is coming into this game looking for a specific experience.

    I don't think we can say it's 'really bad' though, even if some of us don't like it or feel as though it makes 'sense' because 'sense' in this case is as you noted.

    In the end, we mostly just need to hope it works, and works better than AA2.

    To me, when you are in the sieges, caravans or any pvp missions/events then having no penalties is ok. Then you can fight freely without holding back and fight as much as you please, even doing crazy strategies

    But fights around the open world should all have penalties of all kinds, otherwise how can you stall your enemies resource hoarding? You gotta be able to hurt your enemies somehow, by damaging their gear, dropping mats, having death penalties... fighting only for war score makes no sense
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Just as L2 was, Ashes seem to be going for the "don't let the enemy farm the rare thing" instead of "kill the enemy to get the rare thing they dropped".

    The former is about pvping for content control, while the latter is about content removal. I like the first one, which is why I got interested in Ashes in the first place. It's understandable why an EVE/UO player would dislike that approach.

    But as the saying goes, this game is not for you :)
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited April 2023
    NiKr wrote: »
    Just as L2 was, Ashes seem to be going for the "don't let the enemy farm the rare thing" instead of "kill the enemy to get the rare thing they dropped".

    The former is about pvping for content control, while the latter is about content removal. I like the first one, which is why I got interested in Ashes in the first place. It's understandable why an EVE/UO player would dislike that approach.

    But as the saying goes, this game is not for you :)

    Yes, it is kinda like that.
    Steven don't want people PvPing for loot, but for deciding which slices of the pie they want to eat and deny others of eating....

    ....... again, AoC's PvP is about Verra again, even the guild wars!
    How you feed Verra and how you are fed by Verra, the PvP is a subservient actor

    I guess the PvP for loot will be done at seas only, but at the sea if you don't want to lose your loot then you will have to wardec the guys who you see regularly........

    What an odd world.... wardec others if you don't want to lose loot in the free-for-all area....

    #mindblown
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited April 2023
    @Azherae #mindblown
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    I guess the PvP for loot will be done at seas only, but at the sea if you don't want to lose your loot then you will have to wardec the guys who you see regularly........

    What an odd world.... wardec others if you don't want to lose loot in the free-for-all area....
    Seas are permaflag, so in theory you'd only get 50% of the potential loot, so I'd say that seas pvp is also not about loot.

    Caravans and mules are about loot. They are literally concentrated spots of shitton of loot that you're free to pvp or to PK (respectively). It just comes down to how well Intrepid design the caravan/mule usage, cause if no one uses them - there will in fact be no loot pvp.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Just as L2 was, Ashes seem to be going for the "don't let the enemy farm the rare thing" instead of "kill the enemy to get the rare thing they dropped".

    The former is about pvping for content control, while the latter is about content removal. I like the first one, which is why I got interested in Ashes in the first place. It's understandable why an EVE/UO player would dislike that approach.

    But as the saying goes, this game is not for you :)

    Yes, it is kinda like that.
    Steven don't want people PvPing for loot, but for deciding which slices of the pie they want to eat and deny others of eating....

    ....... again, AoC's PvP is about Verra again, even the guild wars!
    How you feed Verra and how you are fed by Verra, the PvP is a subservient actor

    I guess the PvP for loot will be done at seas only, but at the sea if you don't want to lose your loot then you will have to wardec the guys who you see regularly........

    What an odd world.... wardec others if you don't want to lose loot in the free-for-all area....

    #mindblown

    I... I really doubt it would work like that...

    Then again... I really doubted that Guild Wars would have no exp penalties...

    Oof, that kinda day I guess...

    ... no, it definitely can't... that would mean that Pirate Guilds would lose the ability to loot enemy players in open sea warfare? Maybe sinking the ships would drop loot anyway?

    Well... I guess next LiveStream we'll actually have questions again...
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited April 2023
    NiKr wrote: »
    Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    I guess the PvP for loot will be done at seas only, but at the sea if you don't want to lose your loot then you will have to wardec the guys who you see regularly........

    What an odd world.... wardec others if you don't want to lose loot in the free-for-all area....
    Seas are permaflag, so in theory you'd only get 50% of the potential loot, so I'd say that seas pvp is also not about loot.

    Caravans and mules are about loot. They are literally concentrated spots of shitton of loot that you're free to pvp or to PK (respectively). It just comes down to how well Intrepid design the caravan/mule usage, cause if no one uses them - there will in fact be no loot pvp.

    Hear me out, there will be plenty people carrying goods at the sea!!!
    You can't let all those people haul all the stuff they got at the sea, Steven even said that at the sea is where the good stuff is

    So, if there's a famous pirate guild at the sea, then you gotta wardec them and have your loot protected!!
    They will also avoid wardecing you, since the war protects your loot


    The band-aid wars has begun!!
    aid-band-plaster-strip-medical-patch-set-vector.jpg?s=612x612&w=0&k=20&c=SVVNbC4AyZNbcgyz63pUxIkeJ92CSfol7ItOfmveXo4=
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • Azherae wrote: »
    Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Just as L2 was, Ashes seem to be going for the "don't let the enemy farm the rare thing" instead of "kill the enemy to get the rare thing they dropped".

    The former is about pvping for content control, while the latter is about content removal. I like the first one, which is why I got interested in Ashes in the first place. It's understandable why an EVE/UO player would dislike that approach.

    But as the saying goes, this game is not for you :)

    Yes, it is kinda like that.
    Steven don't want people PvPing for loot, but for deciding which slices of the pie they want to eat and deny others of eating....

    ....... again, AoC's PvP is about Verra again, even the guild wars!
    How you feed Verra and how you are fed by Verra, the PvP is a subservient actor

    I guess the PvP for loot will be done at seas only, but at the sea if you don't want to lose your loot then you will have to wardec the guys who you see regularly........

    What an odd world.... wardec others if you don't want to lose loot in the free-for-all area....

    #mindblown

    I... I really doubt it would work like that...

    Then again... I really doubted that Guild Wars would have no exp penalties...

    Oof, that kinda day I guess...

    ... no, it definitely can't... that would mean that Pirate Guilds would lose the ability to loot enemy players in open sea warfare? Maybe sinking the ships would drop loot anyway?

    Well... I guess next LiveStream we'll actually have questions again...

    Well... the band-aid wars has begun!
    Who knows!!!

    There is the small boat for 3 people, this boat is supposedly super fast, people will be carrying the rare materials in their own inventory anyway, then just wardec the pirates and you can safely haul rare materials
    :wink:

    I wonder the dynamic of this, lets say a pirate group is raiding people, stuffing themselves with good materials.
    Then you find them, but you are at war... why even bother killing them??!
    You can't loot them
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    The band-aid wars has begun!!
    Again, if Intrepid design their caravans to be one of the main means of proper transportation of goods - you can just pirate that shit on the seas.

    Steven's nebulous "seas are like so important and valuable, like omg, they have to be forced flagged" tells me nothing. Does the value come from mobs? Locations? Bosses? Fishing? Literally anything else that would have no impact on pillaging?

    Yet again, most potential answers to that imply a "prevent that group of people from participating in that content".
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