Will it pay to harvest the harvesters?

Rather than spending time harvesting, will it pay to instead, flag for PVP and harvest a few harvesters?

I'd think if I can easily clear any corruption received, that rather than spend hours gathering, say lumber,
that I could spend 10 minutes harvesting a few gatherers who have spent those hours gathering timber.

In other words, will harvesters need to be watching over their shoulders or gathering with a team, or
unloading often, so that they don't lose a significant amount of their work?

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Okeydoke

lol. Well Arya, I can't say I subscribe to all the same genocide of carebear notions that you do. But yes I agree, the game is being carebearized before our eyes. On multiple fronts.

Other than the open sea change, almost every change/comment since then has been squarely in the realm of anti pvp. And the open sea change was only made because Steven had to. There was no other realistic choice. Given how harsh he intended to make the corruption system. And given that Archeage 2 is coming with it's revolutionary naval system. And given that 6 year olds can deal with open pvp rules in Sea of Thieves. You can't show up to a Ferrari race with a bicycle.

That said, for the few years now that I've followed this game, loot drop during guild/node wars was never a thing. It was conveniently left blank, unanswered.

Arya_Yeshe

Azherae wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Okeydoke wrote: »

We are desperately in need of a more pvp focused content creator to keep people up to date about what's happening to the game.

Now I see it, Steven included the guild wars entirely.... shit!
This is REALLY BAD! Why even have a war then? Fuck this

Well, like I said in recent threads, AoC is not about PvP...this game is not about the love for PvP, the PvP in this game only serves the purpose of serving Verra's dynamic world

This is why there's some weird PvP decisions in AoC... PvP is there just a means for Verra to unfold it's dynamic world... Verra is the star under the spotlight and PvP is not

I still think they can make it work, but... honestly, your new perspective probably IS the best one to have if one is coming into this game looking for a specific experience.

I don't think we can say it's 'really bad' though, even if some of us don't like it or feel as though it makes 'sense' because 'sense' in this case is as you noted.

In the end, we mostly just need to hope it works, and works better than AA2.

To me, when you are in the sieges, caravans or any pvp missions/events then having no penalties is ok. Then you can fight freely without holding back and fight as much as you please, even doing crazy strategies

But fights around the open world should all have penalties of all kinds, otherwise how can you stall your enemies resource hoarding? You gotta be able to hurt your enemies somehow, by damaging their gear, dropping mats, having death penalties... fighting only for war score makes no sense

Ludullu

Just as L2 was, Ashes seem to be going for the "don't let the enemy farm the rare thing" instead of "kill the enemy to get the rare thing they dropped".

The former is about pvping for content control, while the latter is about content removal. I like the first one, which is why I got interested in Ashes in the first place. It's understandable why an EVE/UO player would dislike that approach.

But as the saying goes, this game is not for you

Arya_Yeshe

NiKr wrote: »

Just as L2 was, Ashes seem to be going for the "don't let the enemy farm the rare thing" instead of "kill the enemy to get the rare thing they dropped".

The former is about pvping for content control, while the latter is about content removal. I like the first one, which is why I got interested in Ashes in the first place. It's understandable why an EVE/UO player would dislike that approach.

But as the saying goes, this game is not for you

Yes, it is kinda like that.
Steven don't want people PvPing for loot, but for deciding which slices of the pie they want to eat and deny others of eating....

....... again, AoC's PvP is about Verra again, even the guild wars!
How you feed Verra and how you are fed by Verra, the PvP is a subservient actor

I guess the PvP for loot will be done at seas only, but at the sea if you don't want to lose your loot then you will have to wardec the guys who you see regularly........

What an odd world.... wardec others if you don't want to lose loot in the free-for-all area....

#mindblown

Arya_Yeshe

@Azherae #mindblown

Ludullu

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

I guess the PvP for loot will be done at seas only, but at the sea if you don't want to lose your loot then you will have to wardec the guys who you see regularly........

What an odd world.... wardec others if you don't want to lose loot in the free-for-all area....

Seas are permaflag, so in theory you'd only get 50% of the potential loot, so I'd say that seas pvp is also not about loot.

Caravans and mules are about loot. They are literally concentrated spots of shitton of loot that you're free to pvp or to PK (respectively). It just comes down to how well Intrepid design the caravan/mule usage, cause if no one uses them - there will in fact be no loot pvp.

Azherae

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Just as L2 was, Ashes seem to be going for the "don't let the enemy farm the rare thing" instead of "kill the enemy to get the rare thing they dropped".

The former is about pvping for content control, while the latter is about content removal. I like the first one, which is why I got interested in Ashes in the first place. It's understandable why an EVE/UO player would dislike that approach.

But as the saying goes, this game is not for you

Yes, it is kinda like that.
Steven don't want people PvPing for loot, but for deciding which slices of the pie they want to eat and deny others of eating....

....... again, AoC's PvP is about Verra again, even the guild wars!
How you feed Verra and how you are fed by Verra, the PvP is a subservient actor

I guess the PvP for loot will be done at seas only, but at the sea if you don't want to lose your loot then you will have to wardec the guys who you see regularly........

What an odd world.... wardec others if you don't want to lose loot in the free-for-all area....

#mindblown

I... I really doubt it would work like that...

Then again... I really doubted that Guild Wars would have no exp penalties...

Oof, that kinda day I guess...

... no, it definitely can't... that would mean that Pirate Guilds would lose the ability to loot enemy players in open sea warfare? Maybe sinking the ships would drop loot anyway?

Well... I guess next LiveStream we'll actually have questions again...

Arya_Yeshe

NiKr wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

I guess the PvP for loot will be done at seas only, but at the sea if you don't want to lose your loot then you will have to wardec the guys who you see regularly........

What an odd world.... wardec others if you don't want to lose loot in the free-for-all area....

Seas are permaflag, so in theory you'd only get 50% of the potential loot, so I'd say that seas pvp is also not about loot.

Caravans and mules are about loot. They are literally concentrated spots of shitton of loot that you're free to pvp or to PK (respectively). It just comes down to how well Intrepid design the caravan/mule usage, cause if no one uses them - there will in fact be no loot pvp.

Hear me out, there will be plenty people carrying goods at the sea!!!
You can't let all those people haul all the stuff they got at the sea, Steven even said that at the sea is where the good stuff is

So, if there's a famous pirate guild at the sea, then you gotta wardec them and have your loot protected!!
They will also avoid wardecing you, since the war protects your loot

The band-aid wars has begun!!
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Arya_Yeshe

Azherae wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Just as L2 was, Ashes seem to be going for the "don't let the enemy farm the rare thing" instead of "kill the enemy to get the rare thing they dropped".

The former is about pvping for content control, while the latter is about content removal. I like the first one, which is why I got interested in Ashes in the first place. It's understandable why an EVE/UO player would dislike that approach.

But as the saying goes, this game is not for you

Yes, it is kinda like that.
Steven don't want people PvPing for loot, but for deciding which slices of the pie they want to eat and deny others of eating....

....... again, AoC's PvP is about Verra again, even the guild wars!
How you feed Verra and how you are fed by Verra, the PvP is a subservient actor

I guess the PvP for loot will be done at seas only, but at the sea if you don't want to lose your loot then you will have to wardec the guys who you see regularly........

What an odd world.... wardec others if you don't want to lose loot in the free-for-all area....

#mindblown

I... I really doubt it would work like that...

Then again... I really doubted that Guild Wars would have no exp penalties...

Oof, that kinda day I guess...

... no, it definitely can't... that would mean that Pirate Guilds would lose the ability to loot enemy players in open sea warfare? Maybe sinking the ships would drop loot anyway?

Well... I guess next LiveStream we'll actually have questions again...

Well... the band-aid wars has begun!
Who knows!!!

There is the small boat for 3 people, this boat is supposedly super fast, people will be carrying the rare materials in their own inventory anyway, then just wardec the pirates and you can safely haul rare materials

I wonder the dynamic of this, lets say a pirate group is raiding people, stuffing themselves with good materials.
Then you find them, but you are at war... why even bother killing them??!
You can't loot them

Ludullu

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

The band-aid wars has begun!!

Again, if Intrepid design their caravans to be one of the main means of proper transportation of goods - you can just pirate that shit on the seas.

Steven's nebulous "seas are like so important and valuable, like omg, they have to be forced flagged" tells me nothing. Does the value come from mobs? Locations? Bosses? Fishing? Literally anything else that would have no impact on pillaging?

Yet again, most potential answers to that imply a "prevent that group of people from participating in that content".

Arya_Yeshe

NiKr wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

The band-aid wars has begun!!

Again, if Intrepid design their caravans to be one of the main means of proper transportation of goods - you can just pirate that shit on the seas.

Steven's nebulous "seas are like so important and valuable, like omg, they have to be forced flagged" tells me nothing. Does the value come from mobs? Locations? Bosses? Fishing? Literally anything else that would have no impact on pillaging?

Yet again, most potential answers to that imply a "prevent that group of people from participating in that content".

Not everything is a caravan, how about your pockets with rare materials

Also, will every ship be a caravan? Or will there be warships for killing bosses and for killing that castle?
If warships aren't caravans and they are subject to wars, then they have no loot...but they are purple? So... they won't drop loot in wars

The player caravans are the ones that become ships when they reach water,they are not "real ships", they were caravans at land with wagons and they become ships somehow when they get in the water

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

The band-aid wars has begun!!

Again, if Intrepid design their caravans to be one of the main means of proper transportation of goods - you can just pirate that shit on the seas.

Steven's nebulous "seas are like so important and valuable, like omg, they have to be forced flagged" tells me nothing. Does the value come from mobs? Locations? Bosses? Fishing? Literally anything else that would have no impact on pillaging?

Yet again, most potential answers to that imply a "prevent that group of people from participating in that content".

Yes but this is by definition a terrible design pillar, not because it automatically fails, but because it has no reason to be this way.

Even you, a great L2 fan, I am reasonably certain would be happier with at least five other implementations. There's just never a good reason to make a large part of your game 'prevent others from participating in X content' when you don't have to for some related Economy design reason.

That's what myself and Arya (I think) are concerned about here. Coming from EVE and from 'studying MMO economy design since I was young', there's no clear econ->gameplay enjoyment link here. "Guild War opponents don't drop loot" is definitionally the opposite of this, disabling the only one that existed.

I don't think the Open Seas have any equivalent of Caravanserai, and if they do, that's the basis of a massive number of other problems.

Arya_Yeshe

@Azherae the signs that PvP only exists to feed the dynamic world of Verra are all around, the PvP is not here for the love for PvP

Now this riddle is on: at open seas, is a circunvent declaring war against pirates just to avoid being looted?

Band-aids, man! LOL
Band-aids always fight each other, this is why making too many rules worries me, because then the rules will need rules for the rules

Okeydoke

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Hear me out, there will be plenty people carrying goods at the sea!!!

The seas will be an interesting place. The corruption system on land is bordering on a system without a purpose. It's pretty much done for. Very few people will use it, other than the gimicky type stuff like depraved described earlier in the thread.

It's just not feasible. You go red, you have to grind, you can't use CC against greens who attack you, you can be essentially karma bombed, because every person you kill while defending yourself as red, is another murdercount. You're stuck in a death spiral. You're going to have inventory issues if you actually killed a couple people with decent loot, because now you have to grind and leave loot from mobs on the ground, cutting into the profit of the kills. On top of all of that, there's bounty hunters with radar hacks who know where you're at on the map. This is just not a system that's going to be used very often.

But...enter the open seas. This is where you would have to retrerat to to grind off any significant amount of corruption. On the open seas, everyone's flagged combatant. So as a red, you can use your CC's to defend yourself. And you can kill them without increasing your murder count when they attack you, because they're auto flagged combatant.

This creates kind of like a Viking/pirate dynamic that's pretty interesting. Until the carebears get all of this changed too. lol. Party dont stop. It will never end.

Ludullu

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Not everything is a caravan, how about your pockets with rare materials

Also, will every ship be a caravan? Or will there be warships for killing bosses and for killing that castle?
If warships aren't caravans and they are subject to wars, then they have no loot...but they are purple? So... they won't drop loot in wars

The player caravans are the ones that become ships when they reach water,they are not "real ships", they were caravans at land with wagons and they become ships somehow when they get in the water

We have no context for how sea looting will work, especially for the super rare items. What if they're all huge and require a sea caravan to move?

Also, we don't know how exactly looting will even work. What are the chances to drop any given droppable item in your inventory? What about its volume/quantity? What will people do to minimize any chances of dropping the rare stuff?

I get what you're saying and there's still a chance that this design changes somehow (just as caravan death penalties decay your gear for some fucking reason), but I would expect that the direct item looting would be a caravan/mule thing rather than general owpvp.

Azherae

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

@Azherae the signs that PvP only exists to feed the dynamic world of Verra are all around, the PvP is not here for the love for PvP

Now this riddle is on: at open seas, is a circunvent declaring war against pirates just to avoid being looted?

Band-aids, man! LOL
Band-aids always fight each other, this is why making too many rules worries me, because then the rules will need rules for the rules

I can't agree that 'band-aids always fight each other'.

I believe this because at no point do I feel like any poster on this forum trying to engage on a topic has been in a position where they 'didn't have an expectation' of what would happen with a system when they make their complaints.

What I mean is, everyone has a clear expectation of how something would work, and what 'band-aids' would be needed to make it work.

While I normally don't like to fault Intrepid, it's moreso that analytically, their design appears inconsistent, and we're all just sitting around waiting for it to solidify in one of the sane directions without having all the internal data or discussions they have.

Of course it could just be that they don't agree internally either and Steven doesn't know how to build the system himself, but even that should still result in something.

Basically I think you can choose the 'correct synergy of band-aids' and it work. And that's with my personal belief that the current Corruption system is flawed. I don't think it's valid to say 'the band-aids are going to ruin it' or that 'it just won't work'.

Arya_Yeshe

@Azherae I don't think band-aids fundamentally will always ruin games, but they bring some weirdness, they bring some oddity, some circunventing, some over complicated rules that will fool people, some bugs, they also demand more development time and testing

But the PvP aspect in AoC has some inconsistencies because the game's goal is Verra, not PvP... PvP is this beast that Intrepid brought to the stage but they can't handle it properly

It is just like those circuses which have a show with lions and suddently the lion attacks the beastmaster

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Yes but this is by definition a terrible design pillar, not because it automatically fails, but because it has no reason to be this way.

Even you, a great L2 fan, I am reasonably certain would be happier with at least five other implementations. There's just never a good reason to make a large part of your game 'prevent others from participating in X content' when you don't have to for some related Economy design reason.

My L2 bias is just waaaay too strong on this topic. The pvp for that content was usually the fun part of the content, which is why my brain got wired to prefer it that way.

That "overcome other players to get the thing" is what was attractive to me. And I do realize that the majority of people would prefer a much fairer and more content-directed system rather than a "pvp if you want to even try this content". And as Dygz would probably say, "if Ashes had a lead designer, this might not have been an issue"

Noaani

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Okeydoke wrote: »

We are desperately in need of a more pvp focused content creator to keep people up to date about what's happening to the game.

Now I see it, Steven included the guild wars entirely.... shit!
This is REALLY BAD! Why even have a war then? Fuck this

As I have been saying for years, people will not declare a war in order to avoid corruption but still killing a player and taking their stuff.

Wars are a big deal, second only to sieges.

There are actual things at stake in wars. Guild halls are the obvious example.

Azherae

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

@Azherae I don't think band-aids fundamentally will always ruin games, but they bring some weirdness, they bring some oddity, some circunventing, some over complicated rules that will fool people, some bugs, they also demand more development time and testing

But the PvP aspect in AoC has some inconsistencies because the game goal is Verra, not PvP... PvP is this beast that Intrepid brought to the stage but they can't handle it properly

It is just like those circuses which have a show with lions and suddently the lion attacks the beastmaster

First of all 'lol'.

Secondly, I agree from the perspective that based on what we see right now, it looks like the systems don't match the game. Hopefully when the Economy and System Designers are hired and can have a serious sit-down about it all, they'll fix that either by fixing the PvP systems or changing the other aspects of the game.

Intrepid is in a good place for that. Back when I was running the TCG Community I was in charge of, it was super helpful to me to have people to provide different perspectives of that type, since it really lets you cut down on the 'randomized' feedback of the uninvested.

We're already there as a community, partially because the active community slightly shrank or went back to lurking, but the reason doesn't matter.

If Corruption fails PvP incentives from the worldbuild, NiKr will point it out. If it fails because it has too many 'carebear loopholes', you will, and if it breaks the Economy then I will.

So basically I request that you give the bandaids a chance (but definitely keep complaining, particularly with your changed perspective, since you're the one most suited to telling them when they're not even helping Verra itself).

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