Azherae wrote: »
EDIT: @SpaceWolf - in case of any additional general notes.
Spif wrote: »
That's a good balance of trash and mechanics
1) Group finding time
2) Travelling time
3) Instanced or open world
Different dungeons will have different appeal to people, some dungeons are considered more desirable then others. This affects the time it takes to form a group. Without external help from addons or automated dungeon finders, i tend to spend about 30 mins max of trying to find a group. And a similar length of time to travel to it.
So in that regard, i expect a dungeon to start about an hour after i start looking for it. Once at the location, it depends if its open world or instanced. The open world dungeons are going to be contested for boss spawns and for that reason i want it to be big and long lasting, so that multiple groups will be able to run the dungeon, without immediate interferring with respawn timers. Even if the boss respawns are to be contested, I don't want to run into a situation, where a group kites from boss to boss in a pattern and is able to get all the boss timers.Therefor for open world dungeons i think the minimum time required to do the dungeon from the first pull should be around 2 hours.
instanced dungeons are different. Without pvp to complilcate things, a pure pve group will go trough dungeons faster. The ideal duration for instanced dungeons for me would be around 1 hour to 1 1/2 hours.
The better the rewards are, the longer the dungeon should take.
As for Raids, i like to raid for about 4 hours at a time, so with formup and travelling time, i'd like to that those take 3 to 4 hours depending on skill and gear. Again with the premise that open world raids should last about twice as long as instanced ones.
I am glad you asked. As to pertaining to open world and knowing a influx of many people will be moving in and out of areas.. i think it would be best if surrounding areas encompass the actual dungeon in center, above or below as to where you have to fight your way inward from multiple choices of entrance locations perhaps leading to different bosses first. In this outer area i would expect quests and quicker leveling or decent quest items/drops options for people as these areas are still filled with the dungeons enemies yet able to be solo’d. As a dungeon group moves towards the center they get more difficult till its actually the dungeon and dungeon difficulty enemies. This will ensure at these points of contest/interest a dungeon group may find applicable meaningful pvp. As well the normal dungeon rate respawns outside the actual dungeon for solo or other small groups of adventurers/questers has meaningful content to help them level close to the rate of the dungeon with risk vs reward. As well again allows opportunity to meet people in the real world to delve deeper with which may create all sorts of funny and strange dynamics between players. As well for professions the deeper in you go the more resources. So as you get into the dungeon itself after preamble area there is more profession resources but on the outside leading in only a few on long timers. This allows players of all type to enjoy and use the area for these purposes with varying levels of commitment to the area as well as to themselves as to their profession/gathering.
So in all i do not comprehend why you'd want to waste your time with telling people off of areas such as dungeons when they could be multi-faceted points of interest inside and out. With that said i think for a true proper dungeon crawl about 45 minutes to 1 hour plus. I like a good combat preface leading up to the dungeon maybe about 15 minutes to get into dungeon from outside then 30-45minutes ontop of the 15 to complete the actual dungeon. I was tempted to say multiple sessions depending on which area of the dungeon you want to do but i think multiple sessions to complete is best left for more a raid then a dungeon. If the dungeon is the most difficult dungeon i could slap on another 15-30 minutes ontop of the hour already alotted above to complete a normal dungeon. Anything harder or longer and people will have a issue of just calling it a raid. 60-90 max. Please note i am not including the time possibly spent dying or being attacked or interrupted by other players and factors.
I prefer 20-30 minutes - mainly because then I have ample opportunities to deal with interruptions from real life. (As in, I can literally say "Ok, can you give me 10 minutes?" and actually be available 10 minutes later)
However, after dinner I don't mind grinding hard, as long as there's good pacing to the gameplay.
If the gameplay to do dungeons is to kill bosses for the gears/materials and the routes of dungeons are linear like other mmorpgs, I will say 20 mins to 30 mins. Dungeon for large group maybe 60~90 mins.
I prefer that dungeons are dynamic that constantly changing like living mazes will close/open the secret path leads to hidden high value treasure or path to high density monster room trap etc. Some classes like rogue can spot those hidden paths/triggers and maybe set trap for groups behind them. I just hope that killing bosses or grinding trash monsters are not the purposes or the only few things players can do while diving into dungeons. On top of that I hope players can decide when they want to end the exploration by using escape scroll etc. So players can endlessly diving in dungeons as long as they want to(or able to) and they can decide when they want to leave.
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If we talk instanced, linear and non contested dungeons then 30 minutes would be more suited.
Most of my time in MMO's was from EQ2, a game that always had plenty of open dungeons (though no PvP). In some dungeons, it would take 90 minutes just to get to the part of the dungeon you wanted to be in.
For the most part though, if you are jumping in to a dungeon with your guild, that is basically what you are doing for the play session. As such, it needs to be open ended in terms of time, with reason enough to be in there for that length of time.
Short dungeons that take between 30-60 minutes would provide an opportunity for players with limited time to experience dungeon content without having to dedicate hours of their day to it. These types of dungeons can also be made more accessible to players by implementing a matchmaking system, which will allow players to find groups quickly and easily.
Long dungeons that take between 60-80 minutes would provide a greater challenge for players who have more time to invest in the game. These dungeons can feature more complex mechanics, puzzles, and bosses that require greater coordination and teamwork to overcome. Rewards for completing these dungeons can be higher in order to incentivize players to invest the extra time and effort.
Raids are another important aspect of dungeon content in MMORPGs. These large-scale challenges can be designed to accommodate a large number of players and require high levels of coordination and strategy to complete. Raids can also feature unique mechanics, puzzles, and bosses that provide a sense of accomplishment to players who successfully complete them. Rewards for completing raids can be especially lucrative and can include rare loot, exclusive mounts, and other coveted items.
Balancing content between the three types of dungeons can be a challenge, but it's a challenge that can be overcome by carefully designing the dungeons with their intended audience in mind. Short dungeons can be designed to be more accessible to a wider range of players, while long dungeons and raids can be designed to be more challenging and rewarding for players who are willing to invest more time and effort. It's important to strike a balance between accessibility and challenge in order to provide a satisfying experience for all players.
But that's just what I'm used to in other MMOs. Speaking more generally, I just want there to be easy access to some kind of small-group, semi-casual content. I like to be able to do a little every day, as a warm up to harder content, as a wind-down after a long day, or just to squeeze something reliable, comfortable, and fun into a busy day. If I can get that from overworld quests or events instead, then it would be fine if dungeons are a longer and more meaty adventure. But if dungeons are the prime candidate for "hop into a small PUG and grind as much or as little as you want, no pressure", then I'd want it to be more bite-sized.
30 minutes / Steps, 3 to 4 Steps in general. For first playthrough if we are "Alone", can add more for completion and searching each little details.
So 90-120 Minutes to clear for the first time in. 60 to 90 Min for the reruns. +/- possible other groups / waiting for respawn.
On a personal note, the more content there is in dungeons the more i am happy.
3-4 player dungeon: 10-30 minutes
6-8 player dungeon: 20-45 minutes
raid level: 45-90 minutes depending on raid variations and # of bosses and mobs
60-90 Minutes is good.
The way this question is framed makes it sound like a standardized instanced dungeon experience.
I would imagine that what intrepid plans to deliver is much more sandboxy.
Thats why i want to add to what @Azherae outlined -> The experience of a dungeon can be segmented.
I think what is crucial for intrepid and is to give the players some controll over these segments.
Hopefully there is gonna be ways to stay longer in dungeons;
make the experience relatively accessible through controll over "when can you leave the dungeon and still accomplished something"
and even more inaccessible when it fits the dungeon´s theme.
Assuming you mean open world (PVE style) only 30-40mins & 60-90mins depending on size & difficulty would likely be the time frames that are ideal If you want people to keep doing them long term. Any longer & you will run into them being treated as "raids" which means they will have a "ceremony" month then go untouched due to being a time sync that doesn't meet daily "economic" required rewards for time & skill (which is where bots come to play usually).
^^ At least for Release, Later patch if it seems to short, make longer ones.
This said if you have a Raid multigroup open world dungeon, A wipe fest of epic proportions with repawning mobs & "save" points inside, also that new people can teleport to the group inside after joining party, who cares how long it takes.
Same for if it is a open world respawn grind spot dungeon.
FFXI's Assault system is immersively integrated into a major hub area, and provides teleportation to various campsites throughout the overworld for anyone participating in an Assault. This greatly streamlines the process of organization and preptime for an Assault, since "everyone be in/around this hub area on Wednesday at 6PM" is much easier to ask for than "everyone be in/around this far-flung dungeon on the far corner of the map on Wednesday at 6PM". Being in a hub area also means that preparing resources is simplified, since you're right by your item storage, player Auction House areas, etc etc.
In fact, the process is so streamlined and efficient that our group would often be able to generally prep, arrive at the part of the hub where Assaults are started, and THEN take a vote or such on which one(s) to do on a given day, instead of needing to plan EVERYTHING out in advance.
From there, difficulty level, the exact type of mission you go on, etc etc, is entirely variable, and this allows groups with a wide variety of player compositions, skill levels, and interests to participate and acquire rewards. Obviously, people who do Assaults more OFTEN will be able to unlock said rewards faster, but in the long run, everyone has access to the same reward pool (with rewards given via accruing points from completing Assaults successfully). To top it off, if you are so inclined, you can simply remain at the dungeon exit after your Assault is over rather than returning to the initial hub city they started from, which can of course facilitate exploration and resource gathering.
There are many reasons the Assault system in FFXI was quite popular back in the day, and I consider it a standard to weigh this type of content against in any newer MMOs. Assault is great.
Would be nice to see pvp as part of dungeons.
* Note that most dungeons in Ashes of Creation will be an open-world experience, where you may compete with other players to progress through the dungeon"
A: i will answer describing what would be the most fun and challenge dungeon for me.
For me the dream would be one Huge dungeon with multiple paths to explore, leaving to you decide what you wanna do , explore all the paths? hunt the bosses?, gather resources that just appears inside then, or look for opportunities to have a fight and compete for treasures with other people inside then, would be sick if having a loot of bosses and elite mobs sorted all over de dungeon, that would provide different resources and maybe even unique drops with low chance of drop, this would be awesome!! have a chance to get one cool item that gives unique passives or have cool features, that gives other people the feeling like "wow look this weapon that this guy is using, how did he get that?" and people start to hunt that dungeon or others to find unique drops or rare drops to make they feel the accomplishment for having conquered that... Good MMOS need to be able to provide this unique feeling for the most things that you can do in their world... with that said, all of this things would be my dream in a mmo like ashes.
That being said, I did enjoy the L2 fighting journey to get to a bottom of a dungeon, the long sessions deep inside and training mobs for AoE or on others that dared to pve in the vicinity.
Going back to dungeons is also important. There should be quest chains that send you back, so players that aren't as caught up as the rest of the pack have a chance to find that healer/tank they need to flush out the group. It also creates nostalgia in the long run when you go back, and since ashes is more horizontal progression based, it would be amazing if you never really out leveled the mobs, just did them faster due to gear. (IDK how this would work with a level 20 dungeon with a level 50 capped player doing it though, since im highly against scaling enemy's, you should always out level them at some point.)
I don't think that dungeons should all be the same length however, and it's probably just as OK for a 20 minuter as a 2 hour dungeon, it's just important to note that you create funnels when you make something too contested, either intentional or otherwise. (Not necessarily a bad thing!)
Is the dungeon more geared towards a set path or does it have and example of 5 optional ways to complete it?
How many secrets are present to be discovered both by skill and by chance and do they affect optional completion?
Guilds, clans or just someone who can bring folks together is what it would take.
-Scale by tier or by POI size?
-Where's the time going?
-Linear or multi-faceted?
-Any group or MY group?
-Always there or limited/one-time?
-Part of a quest or quest chain?
Does the length scale by tier or by the size of the POI? If it scales by tier, I would hope that lower tiers are going to be a bit quicker to get through, partially because there's much more to see in do in the game world than delve a dungeon for 10 levels, and at a lower tier I'd expect more of the tougher/intriguing pathways will still be blocked off. It it scales based on the size of the point of interest, I would hope that this still has tier-specific considerations, so it may be more sparse or have more interconnections that allow players to give a cursory delve to get the basics of the place, and understand where they may want to return when the tier increases and bigger events begin to form there. In both cases, at a lower tier I'd hope for 15 minutes for a quick in-and-out like the spider cave from A1, which could easily take closer to 30+ minutes if players want to discover every nook and cranny. Likewise for an elite tier POI of that size, it could be similar time with a coordinated group of equal combat and platforming skill, but a solo player may need to come in much tougher (like level 25-30 for level 10-15 elites) to be able to make forward progress while managing back-spawns and reinforcements. For something like Carphin, even at a lower tier, I would be hoping for something closer to 30 minutes to an hour for one quick in-n-out that just goes down one path, and 2-3 hours for a full explore-it-all run, that might not even include a final boss kill or attempt.
Where's the time going? For a TTRPG, there's the time dilation where the combat may only last 30 seconds but it takes half the 4 hour gameplay session... but a TTRPG generally isn't an MMO with spawns that players need to rest between to avoid. So if most of the time is spent in combat, that means time spent exploring and taking in the art and visual storytelling and nuance will be very difficult, while keeping on constant fight-loot-rest mode that feels less like playing a role and more like grinding in a vidya game. To this extent, I would hope to see a blend, where some things may be exactly that, sparse on art and discoverable features, heavy on combat, because the POI is a bandit camp and the goal is to clear it ASAP; while others are light on combat with meaningful battles, and plenty to interact with and discover to learn more about the POI and how players may further utilize, interface with, or "solve" the dungeon. Given the size/tier example above, a smaller or lower tier POI I'd hope would be explored in 15-30 minutes depending on how thorough the group wants to be, though this may increase to 30 minutes to an hour for a POI that has a lot to discover AND aims to keep on constant pressure with enemies.
Linear or multi-faceted? Many dungeons are designed to be a one-way trip, either because it ends in a loop to the exit, or players simply teleport out when they've killed the baddie at the end. Since we won't be hearthstoning or essence-warping around all willy-nilly, linear with a loop would be the fastest, and may have some wacky gating mechanisms like diving off a waterfall behind where you fight the end boss, riding a one-way elevator back to the entrance, or getting on a phantom canoe that levitates over the chasm separating the baddie from an early open area. With a lack of that, there should be good "check it out on the way back out" content, which may require a shorter time to get to the boss so players feel encouraged to check out all the stuff they didn't notice/wasn't activated for them until they make the trek back the way they came through the space. But I'm just as much hoping to see multi-faceted places, where there's many meaningful ways to go, some that link up other paths, some hat have soft gating systems and mechanics that encourage players to complete a section, pop out, take a break, then come back later. Find a blueprint, find a rough shard of Keystone, come back home to create the focused keystone that opens any of the four sealed paths, etc. This can help to make something that's 3-5 hours of content not feel like a commitment of sitting down for 3-5 hours with all your food and no bathroom breaks to grind through it all in one sitting. This also works great for progressive linear dungeons, you get a key to bypass the door for the stairs to floors 3, 5, 7, etc, or access to short-range portals that act as return checkpoints for the next IRL week since you last accessed them. This is also good for a POI that has enhanced difficulty as it goes deeper, where players may be able to solo the first three floors, join a small group for 3 to 5, then come back with any 40 players to clear 6 and the boss on 7.
Any group or MY group? For group-related activities, it should be clear whether the overall question of time is related to playing with my own group of friends or just any group entirely. If the coordination between a party of one-of-each-type isn't so high that PUGs aren't unreasonable, then it isn't too bad to just assemble and get rolling. However if the expectation is to play with my friends, I just go back to the issues of EVE Online and the hurdles of navigating a non-fast travel universe: just getting everyone to the same play, with the right gear and enough consumables, and to arrive safely and ready to go, may already be a 1-3 hour session, before even stepping foot inside. To that extent, a dungeon that is shorter (30 mins for a smaller one, maybe 1h for a larger one) with optional exploration and discovery that can double that time, can turn what was supposed to be a quick dungeon run into an all-day affair. When that expands from 8 to 40 players, the length of time to get everyone assembled--especially in responding to a recently-opened POI--can become much longer, even worse if people have to start dropping out early because of time constraints or other issues.
Always there or limited/one-time? For places that are present and available for a long time, it is fine if it takes longer to clear the dungeon and see everything inside, because there isn't a rush to hit it before it disappears, and players may want to take more and longer trips inside. For something more temporal, it may be better for players to have shorter productive sessions that don't complete it for everyone in the first run, but likewise aren't a four hour trip to handle something that you may only get one IRL week to explore before it disappears for an IRL year.
Part of a quest or quest chain? This can help to break up or elongate the time players will spend in a POI. 5-10 minute trek from the nearby town or a nearby NPC camp, 30 minutes of productive gameplay and progress, quest objectives completed, maybe a 10 minute mad dash train-to-zone retreat to get from the quest completion step to the NPC camp again, then returning to pursue another avenue or explore something in a different way than before that requires encountering things that could be bypassed the last time. Just as well, a quest that requires player coordination may be done with time-sensitive steps, like you have to light one brazier at the entrance, carry the glow it imparts upon the crew to the shadowed hallway where they can see previously hidden doors and puzzles, then get the book of shadows and throw it into the brazier before it goes out in order to purge the darkness from the hallway to reveal the boss that was hidden within, who must be defeated before the brazier expires to produce the darkness-scrying ichor needed to make a lens that allows for darkness-uncovering exploration of its further depths.
So long answer short, it should be dynamic based on a variety of factors, where the smallest and easiest should be 15 minutes, and the most complex and challenging should be hopefully under 4 hours.
Grind spots might be inside group content areas, but they don't have much to do with playing through the dungeon.
I think a large dungeon shouldn't take more than 60 min for an optimum run (before endgame). Here's why: 4-5 mini bosses/encounters at 5 minutes each, including prep. 1-2 big bosses at 10 min each. Then 20-30 min moving through and fighting trash (10-15 packs). That's a good balance of trash and mechanics
Why did I like it? Because it could take LITERALLY 5 Hours to get through and if your party wiped once you were out and had to start from the beginning which rarely if ever happened when you were 2+ hours in.
Nothing says that dungeons in AoC couldn't be different design philosophies at once. The old design of Classic WoW Dungeons were often not liked because they were to long. That is correct. But not every dungeon has to be designed to be repeatable and easy to breeze through. Especially if the level range is not at max level.
The main boss of Urgoz Warren was just the trash mobs (and the environmental effects to some degree), They were difficult to handle and the Meta demanded for specific builds to be in the group to handle them. Additionally to the usual knowledge of tactics and positioning.
At the end of the Dungeon there was Urgoz which at first only dropped 2 rare items for only 2 of the party members which was later changed to drop something for every party member. The Fight against Urgoz wasn't even that Hard. You had a good chance to get it in the first or second try if you knew what to do.
Overall the challenge was just MAKING it to Urgoz because every death weakened you unless you had mitigation items for the effect. It was resource management that was the challenge.
WoW conditioned players to literally farm dungeons. Do them over and over again. But I think that both types can and should exist. Dungeons that you run for a short while and a few that will fill a whole evening or more.
In practice it could be a dungeon with 30 Minutes Trash respawn that is so long that walking through it without the trash would take like 15Minutes itself.
Don't make every Dungeon like this. But make like 1-3 like this. And don't give these Dungeons dailies or be required to run but extremely good loot even from trash mobs deeper within.
30 mins - 1 hour
Approximately 1.5 -2 hours to complete.
this of course is dependent on the group and may take less time to complete (geared grp) or may take slightly longer if its a less geared group or carry group.
Approximately 3 hours to complete
Approximately 4 hours where credit is given based on contribution and no penalty for having to leave the fight