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Dev Discussion #50 - Dungeon Delving



  • IzexIzex Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I think an hour is a good length but I don't want it to just be filled with trash mobs to add more time.
  • BlipBlip Member
    edited April 18
    No less then 1 hover, but seeing as it is open world no less then 90 min.

    But when done you should be able to easylie loop around and start again.

    Open world dungions are just good grind spots and that needs to be takene into account.

    If you cant acomidate more then a couple of groups content gets gated. So spawn time needs to be faster as well.
  • GodGod Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    holding, will edit.
  • xHAZERxxHAZERx Member
    Lets say the Dungeon it self has a target, meaning if there is more than one boss in the same Dungeon. First boss spawn not early at 30 min, second at 1h and the third one depends on the progress on the party-clan etc... So at the first and second other ppl can compete for the last one. So if there is enemies on boss or dungeon will prolonged the time of the same boss Dungeon etc... For me the Dungeon has to depend on the Rewards it gives items, cosmetics , tittle etc... Normal dungeons for me has to be 60-90 minutes, other dungeons 90 min to Infinity time!!! Because you have to be serious player if you want to gain, this sheet whit 10-40-50 min dungeons is not good for the game at all!!! Let then do the slackers solo dungeons or do some quest's...
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    The time spent in a dungeon should have some relative duration and/or worth based on how long and/or difficult it was to get there.

    If the outside terrain was difficult to negate, or the entrance was a long way from the nearest town, or say, the interior of the dungeon was hard to fight through, then then there should be greater reward.

    Ideally, there are also some dunegons that are readily accessed and not so hard to go through
  • KikaKika Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    For me, a good base line dungeon is 1-2 bosses plus a big boss at the end. About 30 minutes.

    The best part about open world dungeons is the pvp aspect. Therefore the bosses should be easier and faster to clear because the focus is on the pvp, not the dungeon itself.

    A raid should have more bosses which are harder that you should not be able to clear on your first time.
    That said, I dont see progression style raiding being viable in an open world raid because the bosses and mobs would reset while you are learning the next boss.
  • I think the answer depends on which part of the story or playthrough is in question. IE: if a dungeon is earlier in the game and is more of a introduction to dungeons, I would want it to be quicker as to teach the base mechanics and flow. A regular story dungeon should take about 30 minutes with an option to make it harder which could take the playtime closer to an hour max.

    Weekly Dungeons should be longer and I would think 90-180 minutes would be ideal creating a higher value for rare items within this mechanic. In other words rarity+ time investment could make cosmetics or items earned more prestigious.

    Event Dungeons or Dungeons that spawn based on how the servers story is going, such as Tower of Carphin should be the longest. With that being said due to the completion time being longer I think that there should be checkpoints (personal) where you can pick up with say a different group or even if you have to start over the instance at least your question progress should be kept in place. A fun mechanic in my opinion would be that the event dungeons can branch off depending on how many users attempt to complete the event and how many actually do. For example if the mission is to save a particular NPC (assuming a minimum threshold for quantity of players that complete the event) it could have other influences like the NPC is not recovered and is lost from that server, which could lead to a new event where that NPC is replaced by something else in the collective player content. This could open the game for even more content and allow more diverse servers.

    Just a few thoughts.

    Fan since "A Mages life" video

  • How long do I want a dungeon to take? If it is a story dungeon that is "one and done", around an hour is perfect. IF the dungeon can be revisited and is procedurally generated, I wouldn't mind exploring it for several days/weeks.
  • well I think a Good hour long session for a dungeon is totally worth it, it needs to be that long so it cant just be constantly rerun by item grinders and so they half lose interest in grinding for that 0.1% unique one of a kind item, I'm even willing to go another half hour more for like astrology stuff in the dungeon or maybe the rogue found a hidden treasure room or something, like i want a dungeon to feel like a dungeon, and This one might be asking a lot but I'd like the dungeon if at all possible to not be the same layout as previous, there's nothing more boring than running into a dungeon and the rogue runs right to one of 5 hidden possible door areas, or the Tank runs ahead because if you stand in this one spot all the mobs will aggro to you and we can wipe the full dungeon in 2 minutes. I'm talking about like you walk down the corridor and yesterday the corridor had a a branching fork but this time, it goes right into a completely different room just some juggling of floors would be nice, Haven't experienced that in an MMO.
  • I enjoy a wide range of lengths of time for dungeons for various reasons. The average of that is probably around 45 minutes. That's simply my answer but I would appreciate if the devs could entertain more of my thoughts on this.

    As someone who wants an MMO to be their main source of entertainment, I will have various lengths of time I get to enjoy my video game. Dungeons have the benefit of being a group activity and is why in other MMO's, dungeons are common place for people to get together and have something to do. The lowest reasonable amount of time is 30 minutes in my opinion, but that might even include the time it takes to gather everyone to their event of choice.

    I see two solutions:
    1. purposefully designed dungeons for different time lengths.
    2. dungeons as a whole designed regardless of time length, where you can have a positive experience if personally limited to only increments of its entirety.

    I would mostly argue for the 2nd in this case, because of the open world nature of this game. I think if the reward system of a dungeon was spread evenly throughout the encounters rather then the end of them all, it could be a net benefit to the general player enjoy-ability, game state/economy, and overall immersion of a fantasy world.

    side note:
    I think i fear the notion of dungeons being almost THE core element of MMO game play and therefore balanced around the majority of players. This treatment is not done to other aspects of the game such as running a store (I am only guessing. Sorry if I am wrong).

    Maybe this MMO can set the new standard of have a vast multitude of systems core to the game play loop and let dungeons be for those who set their sights to do achieve the thing the game has that is designed for itself.

    Let your dungeons fit the world of Verra and not for us!!! :)
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One

    Vaknar wrote: »

    Dev Discussion - Dungeon Delving
    Dungeon Delving: On average, how long do you prefer a dungeon playthrough to take?

    About 20 to 30 minutes. That's long enough that you need to plan for it, so it's not trivial, but it's not so cumbersome that you will lose players half way through. Going much longer than that becomes hard to get a lot of folks to commit to, and you can forget about PUGs for something that takes 45 mins to an hour.

    You want to have content that allows for people to do a variety of things during a long play-through and lets them fully do one thing on a short play-through.

    EVE Online is plagued by this. There are plenty of nights that I feel like flying a ship around, however I have to ask myself "do I have at least two hours?". If the answer is no then I don't bother logging in, even though I want to. The issue is everything, and I mean everything, takes time to set up, travel to or prepare for in order to see a meaningful result.

    It's not just the dungeon that costs time. It's the setup and preparation, the group forming, the meetup, the asking around if someone has to bail etc. So if you want players to, for example, spend an hour total on a dungeon then the content needs to be about 20 to 30 minutes long.

    Also as the content gets longer so too do the odds that more people are unable to finish it in one sitting, which actually makes the total time exponentially longer since it takes longer to find people to do it, and it takes longer to fill holes as people have to leave. So while a 20 to 30 minute dungeon could consume 1 hour of time, a 1 hour dungeon could consume 2 hours of time, and so on.

  • I want real hardcore dungeon from 3 to 5 hours with plenty of treasure ^_^
  • BoargryllzBoargryllz Member
    edited April 19
    I believe dungeons should be accessible regardless of what time you have to play or at least there should be options presented to the players. no matter what a dungeon should be a time sink but for those who don't have all night to play they should still be able to do content to progress and dungeons would be a great way to do that. I saw many comments saying 30-90 minutes being a good a range and I would agree. I feel like the longer the dungeon the better loot that could potentially drop but then should there be daily lockouts for the longer dungeons. From my experience in WoW I really enjoyed the mega dungeons they have released the past couple of expansions. those can take several hours, comparable to a raid in some instances. My favorite dungeon in WoW is Blackrock Depths so something similar to that in length would be an awesome addition but I don't think it should be the standard.
    I don't have much experience with open world dungeons except for what little I played in ESO so I guess the difficulty would be making a linear experience for them if that is what you are going for. Players time spent in dungeons will greatly vary because of outside influences and of course certain class kits could greatly change it as well. I love playing my rogue in WoW because we can lock pick certain doors in dungeons skipping small but significant portions, but this ultimately made a rogue in the group a must for some people even though the time save was miniscule. There will be a lot of variables to account for to make dungeons last as long as you want it to so best of luck.
  • LaetitianLaetitian Member
    edited May 8
    Early World Of Warcraft never managed to pull me away from the MMOs I was playing at the time (An RvR-focused game, and a 2d game with a fantastic map and XP system) because it felt like all the dungeon content pulled all interesting multiplayer interactions away from the overland map. So even before automated LFG-tools existed, most WOW players quickly became lazy about grouping up to do things, because it was just unspoken knowledge that if you wanted to do something, you'd find someone to run a dungeon with. So no one felt obligated to find spontaneous or unique ways to do things, because the obvious correct choice was always just to do what the game wanted you to do - ideally correctly by finding online guides (which is not the part I take issue with; tryharding is fine, but the game should offer you other interesting ways to fight monsters than just in one-way dungeons, with the overland map essentially just being singleplayer questing hubs.)
    That's not something you fix by removing instances either; the problem is that typical dungeon design just naturally forces you to take scripted paths through them, where the optimisation is already objectively predetermined.
    In a similar vein, but with different problems in the design, ESO dungeons turned me off extremely because of how messy they were. Too many bosses and cutscenes, not enough exploration and dungeon-crawling at the party's own pace.

    To me, the whole joy of levelling up in other MMOs with less focus on dungeons comes from optimising my own XP gain & loot on the fly, by adjusting the group strategy to the roles that happen to be available. And "group strategy" isn't just our way of fighting. It's how many mobs we pull, where we go, how much time we allow for preparation/resting, or how much risk of enemy player ganking parties we're willing to accept (but PvP doesn't have to be the defining factor.)
    All of those things get lost in monotonous dungeons centered around boss fights with a bunch of fluff in-between that you can essentially just run past.

    I'll avoid a lengthy "No obligatory dailies!" rant, although it really can't be overstated how much the playerbase suffers when everyone is forced to group up for content that half of the group wants to excel at, while the other half just wants to get their mandatory quests out of the way, because it's their only option to keep their gear relevant (Although "relevant" is relative, and I have no issues with more committed players having some advantages (10-20% above average), as long as the average player still has access to fun activities with rewards that allow them to make a dent on the battlefield). So, you know...just keep that in mind for all decisions you make, and keep compensation for overland grinders, dungeon rats, crafters, and pvp fighters reasonably equivalent.

    So in summary:
    • Make the challenges of dungeons require on-the-fly min-maxing. A really fun gimmick for a dungeon design could be unpredictable player numbers. Let 10-man groups join a dungeon, and then randomly split them up across sections, and force them to fight their way out in smaller subgroups. Having to adjust your strategy to the team of classes you end up in is the absolute best part of playing with other people.
    • Reward parties for grinding effectively. Make loot dependent on the amount of mobs killed, or lock additional rewards behind extra challenges that you can only clear if you can withstand a large group of enemies. Make me feel like the amount of units I manage to kill, and the speed at which I do it, or perhaps the health I preserve along my path, matters for the outcome & reward of the dungeon, instead of just filling the space between 2 bosses with a bunch of grinding that's identical to overland mobs (because then I'd much prefer just to grind overland where I get to interact with other people at a whim, instead of being locked into a dungeon for a set amount of time!)
    • If those types of interesting dungeon design exists, and dungeons rarely feel mandatory, I agree with what other people have said about how there should be 2-hour dungeons, and 20-40-minute dungeons. But don't make it (effectively) mandatory for every player to repeatedly go through the 30 minute dungeons, or the quality of the playthroughs will suffer from demotivated players forced to complete their dailies. If anything, make the long dungeons mandatory, but restrict it to a few runs a year that people can take their time to fit into their schedule. Way more interesting, and better for the average gameplay experience of both tryhards and casuals.
  • RymRym Member
    edited April 20
    I concur with the people saying between 1-3 hours per dungeon.

    A dungeon should by no means be finished fast, the item drops should also be special and superior to open world drops, and should provide benefits to players making it very worthwhile to keep on going back to the dungeon.

    Being able to sell the loot to other players would also be an exceptional addition to the game (a group kills a boss, but they have the possibility of inviting an outside player and allowing or assigning the loot to the player who did not participate in the fight). This addition would have dungeons highly valuable across the leveling board as well as endgame.

    Imagine you're farming for a specific item for 3 months and it still doesn't drop, but one of your friends or guildmates happens to drop said item, wouldn't you want to buy it from them at that point?

    Generally I believe an experienced group should clear a dungeon in about an hour if they're not obstructed by other players initiating PvP in the area.

    An inexperienced group should take between 3-5 hours to clear the dungeon, with the main point not being to clear it but to constantly improve their gameplay to a point where clearing is possible.

    An exclusive point to open world dungeon delving is the presence of other competing players making for possible PvP hotspots, assassins especially would have a field day trying to kill steal bosses from other players, which would make dungeon delving that much more exciting. The presence of other players makes two runs of the same dungeon completely different from one another, massively improving the overall experience of dungeon delving.

    Dungeons should be difficult to complete and reward exceptionally strong items to help the players in their journey, if the items are too weak then the dungeon needs to be easier as well.

    Edit: I'd like to add that for dungeons that reward skins, these skins should be sellable to other players and in this case I think these dungeons should be exponentially more difficult, with an average completion of 3-6h for experienced groups, 12h+ for inexperienced groups. The point of these dungeons would be to drop beautiful looking but extremely difficult to acquire exclusive skins, different from any other skins in the shop. So if someone wants the specific skin from said dungeon they'd have to do the dungeon or buy it from other players.
  • IskiabIskiab Member
    I’d say an hour on average, then have some longer ones. I think it’s more important to have variety then have dungeons be too similar.
  • GutzgoreGutzgore Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    World Boss content = 20-30 minutes
    Instanced Dungeons = 30-45 minutes
    Instanced Raids = 60-90 minutes
    Solo Dungeons = 45 minutes

    Some things to consider:
    Smaller player group = easier to have longer engagements as you are likely a more tighter knit group and/or expectations are easier to maintain
    Larger player group = more difficult to keep a group together for longer engagements
    -gotta log for dinner, gotta log for wife aggro, gotta log cause your cat spilled the soda on your keyboard

    Difficulty to clear content should be considered also.
    Super difficult = fewer bosses/content so that its reasonable to clear if wipes are expected often
    Easier = more bosses/content

    Respawn timer in dungeon for mobs = annoying mechanic, just don't do it. Take me on a journey through this thing that's fun. Not repetitive in a grindy way.

    There is of course the opposite of keeping time limited to shorter experiences, where some enjoy coming back 2-3 times a week for like 2-3 hours to finally clear a full raid/dungeon. I myself would prefer to clear it more on the shorter side as I work full time and I think many players are in this boat also. However I do understand some players would enjoy a long deep run.
  • Dungeon Delving: On average, how long do you prefer a dungeon playthrough to take?

    60-75 minutes on average. For open world dungeons I would probably prefer to err on the shorter side since grouping up, waiting for spawns, possible contesting of the mobs & travel all take some time. Instanced dungeons has less variables, and thus can take a bit longer.

    I have previously enjoyed alot dungeons that have multiple (3-5) wings on the same level range. Then you can have playtrough of each section be shorter (30ish mins), and the group gets to decide which ones they want to run through and how much time you allocate into it.
  • AmmaAmma Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Aus different as the groups will be who want to go in a dungeon, as different should be the dungeons.
    My opinion is that of all the dungeons in ashes there should be about
    30% small dungeons, where you need around 30 minutes,
    45% bigger dungeons/raids as the main journey for the guilds with around 60 to 90 min,
    20% of realy big dungeons/raids which will take around 2 - 4 hours which are something epic mostly for the weekends and
    5% something VERY big and VERY hard for the bigger guilds and groups, something that could go even (far) over 4 hours, and when you achieve that then it would be something that shows your skill and endurance to others, maybe bye getting not only normal loot but some kosmetic items too.

    The simple thing to make all of it interesting for the players is to balance the dropchances for similar loot. Doenst have to be the same loot, but it should be an alternativ to go in smaller dungeons and not a waste of time.

    For example if you have a dropchance for similar loot in small dungeons of about 2%
    in 30 mins, then let it be around 5 - 8 % in bigger dungeons for 60 to 90 mins, and so on.
    So the chance of getting the item in a bigger dungeon would be slightly higher over the same time period, but it wouldnt be a waste of time to make the small dungeon over and over again.
  • Considering the dungeon is open world i'd like it to be open ended, meaning we go there and find a nice noekie to grind, maybee encounter a few bosses and another groep along the way and then leave whenever we decide to. please don't make us wait to long for respawns

    Running a dungeon from beginning to end sounds more like instanced content to me.
    the beginning of wisdom is to know you know nothing
  • ElegenElegen Member
    edited April 23
    From a traditional instanced MMO perspective, there are 3 types of dungeons I would like to see. I know Ashes will mainly feature an open world structure so these may not be strictly applicable, but I haven't really experienced open world dungeons before so I cant really comment from that perspective but would still like to give some feedback.

    1. Normal dungeons that would take 45-60 min to complete early on and are meant for shorter time commitments. And after people start to learn things about the dungeons like optimal routes, what trash packs to skip, get better gear, etc. those times should get faster. Down to like the 20-30 min for farming them assuming no PvP interference.
    2. Mega dungeons which would be like BRD from Classic WoW where its super expansive and takes multiple hours(2-3) for a full clear. But they should have paths that you can choose near the start in case you don't want to full clear(each one taking around an hour), but just do a certain section for specific loot or if you only have time for a portion of it. Structuring it like BRD where you have to do a run or 2 to unlock the alternate paths via quest or item drops would also be a nice touch IMO. So you have to at least full clear it once before you can choose do the shorter paths.
    3. Heroic dungeons which are just a max level version of normal dungeons and mega dungeons. I think these should be slightly longer than the non-heroic versions, but not vastly longer. Unless a whole new path unlocks like a normal dungeon turns into a mega dungeon or something like that. Ideally these would be changed up to not just be stat/HP increase, but new mechanics/encounters/paths/etc.
  • KingDDDKingDDD Member
    edited April 23
    I'd like to see dungeons have multiple areas within them designed for different group sizes and intended times to complete. Using ToC as an example:

    Tower outskirts - 1-3 areas designed to be completed by 1-3 people in 20-30 mins intended to be repeated multiple times.

    Entrance to the tower - 1-2 areas designed to be completed by 2-5 people in 30-45 mins intended to be repeated multiple times.

    Tower itself - 4-5 areas designed to be completed by 5-8 people in 1-3 hours intended to not be repeated in one sitting.

    Skips to get to different areas should be available via class skills, crafting items, or with relevant items garnered through previous dungeon runs.

  • YuliveeYulivee Member
    Dungeon Delving: On average, how long do you prefer a dungeon playthrough to take?

    That highly depends on the interpretation of "playthrough".
    Is it even desired to be able to play through every type of dungeon in one game session?
    To further elaborate on this:
    One of the greatest mmorpg-dungeons in my opinion was BRD - Black Rock Depths in World of Warcraft Classic. It was like a whole city and there was soooo much to do, that noone even came to the idea of doing everything there at once.
    But not every dungeon has to be like this... really. I think a nice variety of dungeon styles should be the goal here.

    Another point that can be interpreted in different ways is what you take into account when measuring the required time for a dungeon.
    Is it only the time you really are inside the dungeon?
    Is it also the time you needed to find people for your group?
    Is it also the time you needed to prepare for the dungeon (repairing, arrows, food for your animal, potions, ...)?
  • SoggyBandaidSoggyBandaid Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Dev Discussion - Dungeon Delving
    Dungeon Delving: On average, how long do you prefer a dungeon playthrough to take?
    I will admit due to life constraints, I am definitely going to be one of the players that only has an hour or two on any weeknight and maybe five hours on any weekend day to play AoC. I would like to echo what many others have said around the optimal "playthrough" experience being 30-90min, and support that "playthrough" should be interpreted loosely. There are a couple ideas below that I think could make dungeons fun and approachable for player similar to me:

    First, with travel, exploration, and death penalties in AoC, I presume I will need need to take time and planning before I can even get to a dungeon. For me, the ideal time spent on this is probably 30 min or less. Crafting some consumables for my run, coordinating with my group, and getting through the trash mobs. For the most part less is probably more here.

    Second, I think it's important to have some sort of recourse for smaller guilds and pick-up groups to still attain something valuable from dungeons, even given the PvX style of AoC. This doesn't need to be instance content. Maybe an open zone within the dungeon with abundant gathered material, a honeycomb style entrance for small guilds to sneak in, or bosses with unique mechanics geared towards small elite groups. Steven has mentioned having small group content within larger node sieges, and I think something similar could benefit dungeon design. PvP can be fun and exciting; Pv-massive-zerg-guild gets boring quick. No one likes to play a game they cannot win.

    Third, cyclic or branching path design for large scale dungeons. Providing a way for casual players to save and return to their progress even within an MMO setting would be amazing. For example, the way some of the classic DOOM and QUAKE games would cycle you around a level and loop you back using blue/red/yellow key cards, or how a single dungeon in Guild Wars 2 had multiple paths with different bosses and objectives. I would be completely satisfied with a 24 hour dungeon "playthrough" if I could tackle the dungeon in 60min metroidvania style time blocks.
  • EleyEley Member
    From 30 minutes to 1 hour.
  • RintaRinta Member
    edited April 26
    Okay, so according to the wiki, there's going to be quite a bit of different types of dungeons:
    Open-World and Instanced, Linear and Non-Linear, Small and Large, Raid-level and (presumably) Farm-level...

    For some WoW-style "Instanced Linear Large Raid-Level" dungeon, where you come with large pre-mediated party of dedicated raiders, and intend to make it all the way down without stopping, complete with final big boss fight, the time commitment expectation is going to be very different than for, say, an Open-World Non-Linear Medium Farm dungeon where multiple parties come to run around at a depth befitting their level and farm respawning entities for a while until they are bored / killed by their neighbours one too many times / got the loot or experience they want / bard has to go have dinner and they don't want to look for a new bard. Although I am not sure the term "playthrough" can really be applied to anything Open-World, as the expectation is that everything respawns, and the group can simply run through to the area of it they are most interested in, ignoring the rest, and sit there for as long as they wish.

    I think having large variety of options is great, as long as there's no pressure from the game to "do everything" (and with free market, there really shouldn't be).

    If I only have 30 min - maybe I'll drop by that Open-World Dungeon where I can solo easier first floor mobs, and if there's few more people hanging out in there - we can group up and tackle 2nd floor for a bit, then when someone has to go - the rest goes back to soloing on the first floor (replace "floor" with "cave", "area", "branch" or whatever else logistical separation).

    If I have a dedicated group I can plan in advance with, or it's simply 7 pm and everyone in my node gathers at the bulletin board to form parties for the evening - perhaps 1-2h is a reasonable time to commit for some Open-World Dungeon farming on a weekday evening. I suppose it would be cool if some optional mini-bosses respawn once or twice during that period for extra fun and challenge (and PvP motivation), but the big bad dungeon boss doesn't have to - if we came for a repeatable farm on common respawns, the party is unlikely to be geared for such a boss anyway.

    For Instanced No-Respawn Raid Dungeon with a big boss at the end, all bets are off.
    Having some shorter options is a given, but wouldn't it be cool to have that one 5h estimate raid dungeon that only the nerdiest of nerds dare tackle?
    I personally might not. But simply knowing that it exists is kind of exciting, isn't it?
    Or how about a 100-floor tower that you need to conquest in several iterations, with tickets issued every 10th floor for re-entry on a later date? Total clear time might be counted in days, but a single 10-floor sprint can be much shorter.

    12h for a single dungeon is probably a bit unhealthy. Maybe even have a couple days timer for re-entry on that 5h dungeon, yes? Not that it will stop people from doing what they want with their time...

    If we formed a party in the Node - can we hire / build a party van to ride the whole gang to the dungeon of our choice?
    Not an instant travel, just fluff, really. Someone has to mind the team, of course.
  • BirthdayBirthday Member
    edited April 28
    AoC is a unique game in that it's dungeons are open world.

    To make it feel good dungeon delving time needs to be configured according to max players on a single servers.

    What I mean is that dungeons need to take long enough so that it gives time for a random encounter to occur where other players enter and compete with your group. At the same time it needs to be short enough so that if there is some event going on at the moment it becomes tactically viable to skip it so you go run the dungeon uncontested because you are betting on that most players eligible for the dungeon will be going to the event instead. So - short enough to sneak a dungeon while other events are going on and long enough so that it allows random player encounters for competition on the dungeons.
    At the same time though dungeons shouldn't be so long that you fight like 3 different player groups in one run. Having to fight 2 different player groups in one run should be the unusual rare hard dungeon run experience. Anything more than that will make it feel not like a novelty or randomness or natural experience. It'll feel like strict game design - unnatural.

    Aside from this I'd also say that if Steven wants this game to be playable by casuals like he has said then dungeons need to be no longer than 1h.

    Personally I like to spend above 1h in a dungeon but honestly the more I get old the more responsibilities I am getting and there is no way around it. I've talked to many other older gamers too and they actively avoid doing dungeons in some games because it takes above 1h fully committed attention. Doing a dungeon for 90minutes and above I realize now more and more is completely undoable for someone playing casually.
  • 10-15 minutes please, from the moment you step into the dungeon to the moment you kill the boss. long dungeons are tiring, especially when you have to do them over and over and they get even worse when you are playing with people who will make the run more painful than what it should be
  • well a small dungeon for solo/duo player can take 20-30 minutes. A Big Dungeon for bigger partys can take longer like 60-90 minutes. This can also be achieved by scaling up the enemies of players who are currently roaming around the dungeon (like scaling up the number of enemies or their durability).Also, there should be multiple paths to the final boss so other players can dodge until this fight and unprepared players have to pull all the way if they want to steal the loot/kill the other players.
  • I personally don't like when you complete a dungeon in a single sitting. Blackrock Depths was such a masterpiece because you could spend 2 hours down there and you'd only do half of it. If you came back to farm it you would be target farming bosses and do different routes.

    This "1 hour" dungeon time I see people being thrown around sounds like some instancing thing but having to really pack your bags and set out to spend some real time at a dungeon is what I want. Of course beating the content in the dungeon is meaningful but I don't want every dungeon to even have balanced content. Some stuff should be for low levels, some for high levels.

    The idea of wanting to go to a place you've only heard rumors about, pack your things and get half way through a dungeon in a night and then go back to base with a better understanding and strategy of what you need and need to do is what I want. Not interested in a superficial "straight forward path" through a dungeon with no challenge just for gear.
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