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Scrolls of Resurrection & Cleric feedback

Niem LumelNiem Lumel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
edited May 2023 in General Discussion
Since it was confirmed that anyone can use items that can resurrect in the last Development Update and I usually play healing classes in MMOs, I would like to address some of the fundamental problems with this.

To start off, judging from what was revealed about the cleric archetype in the latest showcase I am assuming that nothing revolutionary is planned for the class. It maintains its basic function which is to heal and that was all. In other words, it is boring. And the likelihood of me playing that archetype significantly decreased after seeing the mage showcase. With that being said since the cleric has basically no impactful mechanics or some form of engaging playstyle it is reduced to the one that heals. Therefore, adding to the game the cleric's utility for all to use is going to negatively impact the archetype even further. I am talking about the Scrolls of Resurrection.

People will most definitely not notice this at the start. However, as a server develops and more nodes advance more and more people will have access to these items that are basically another archetype's spell. You already know that this is unbalanced so you are trying to even it out with increased XP debt. Which is fine. I guess it will work. The fact is, I don't know. But what I do know is that you will be putting the archetype in a very bad spot. You will be walking on eggshells every time you try to give other archetypes increased self-sustain in the future, because there is nothing interesting about cleric as it is right now and once the other classes start being able to do content with fewer clerics or without any they will be sure to take that opportunity as it is the dull archetype that gives you HP and that's it.

Maybe the open-world PvP is going to necessitate the presence of clerics at all times. This would mean that in 2v2 skirmishes the party with a cleric must always win against a party without one. Because if you can't sustain the damage of 2 dps where you can use both aoe and st healing what is your impact going to be in larger fights where you can rely only on aoe healing? Practically nonexistent. Not sure, but from what was shown design-wise the archetype is very unsatisfying to play.

To give you an idea of what could possibly happen with the way Ashes of Creation's class system works.

All archetypes are deprived of self-sustain or have been given the bare minimum of self-sustain except cleric. At level 25 players can choose their secondary type. What will happen when you start augmenting the base abilities of DPS classes with the cleric's utility? You will be sacrificing a currently unknown amount of potential damage increase for improved self-sustain and possibly even some party utility. But you will have access to sustain and players will be able to change their secondary archetypes. They will also be able to grab resurrection scrolls from the nearby market so basically they will have everything that a cleric can provide but slightly worse. And when they feel like it, they will be able to change their secondary archetype to something else.

Now I'd assume that you can understand why Cleric is not being treated as an actual archetype. I am all for it if this is going to be the intended gameplay because I will be playing what is most efficient. In all likelihood, it is going to be Mage and I like Mage.

Regarding the Tank & Healer & DPS Trinity

After hearing this it is reasonable to assume that Intrepid Studio is looking to enable any type of party composition and make it viable since the classes that have access to resurrection branch off cleric's archetype.

Let's go over some game concepts.

What does Tank, DPS, and Support Trinity refer to?
What is the threat system for?
What does it mean when those who can heal and those who cannot fall under the same category of Support?
What is the function of damage in games?
Why is there avoidable and unavoidable damage?
How does player skill affect the damage received?
What is the function of healing in games?
What abilities and items share that function?
What roles have access to these abilities?
What is the purpose of a healer?

Free feel to pursue the answers yourself


A game that has Tank, DPS, and Support Trinity is going to require at least one class of each category to clear group content. This is the base principle for balance intended by the developers.

Both tanks and healers negate damage so what's the difference? There isn't one and that's why we have a threat system. It is created for tanks to enable them to turn their endurance into a valuable addition to their group. They are also given significant defensive stat advantage compared to other roles and are balanced around the fact that their endurance is restricted to themselves. That system is put in place to prevent healers from turning other roles into tanks so across games healers are the ones who generate the second-highest amount of aggro. Developers will make healers the squishiest because only sudden death can successfully prevent them from turning themselves into tanks.
Now, I would like to point you to the fact that in Ashes of Creation, we will have a tank that can heal.

When you put healers and non-healers in the same category as Support it will never be possible to balance them because they do completely different things. You balance them by not putting them in the same category in the first place. This is a PvX game. There is PvE content and when such is being developed, it is being taken into consideration what different aspects of the Trinity can do. Intrepid might have said that their intent is to have one of each archetype in a group but it is impossibly difficult to make it happen if it depends only on their design. How are they going to do it? They have Summoner as an archetype who gets to pick its own role. How do you create content that expects you to bring that with you as an archetype? What is it? What does it do? What are its strengths and weaknesses? It can't be everything at once. But regarding Supports, they can most certainly create content that requires healers even though it will exclude Bards from groups which brings me to the topic of damage.

Obviously, damage affects only HP. When it reaches zero you lose control over your character. Since everyone likes being in control the developers use Damage as a dynamic method to set the limits of what you can and cannot do. There are other methods such as accuracy stat, invulnerability, and restricted access. Its usage in PvE is avoidable and unavoidable. Avoidable damage is a problem players can solve on their own, exclusively dependent on their skill. Unavoidable damage is something they can't do anything about. It is controlled by the developers. The purpose of it varies. You can use it to implement DPS checks. You can also use it to create a class that plays around it to make your game more diverse. It is called a healer and that's what they ultimately exist for in PvE content. They have been given the agency over heals in order to neutralize the prevalent amount of unavoidable damage. If you do not have a great deal of unavoidable damage your game does not need a healer.
We know for certain that small-group content will not have enough unavoidable damage.

This brings us to hard content. How do you define hard content? It's been said that PvE content will scale so at what point does it become hard? I assume world bosses are. I will be sure to come back to the thread after next month's development update stream after I have seen how much damage the boss deals. If they play with their GM buffs on instead of a cleric it will further solidify my assumption that they are putting very little thought behind the Cleric archetype and its place in the game.

For the sake of clarity, we can assume that hard content begins when you need a healer in your group. You would need one when the rate at which you receive unavoidable damage is too high and cannot be covered by your self-sustain and whatever defensive buffs your group might have. It is very likely that every class will have at least one ability related to sustainability. Mage has a shield on a 30-second cooldown. In other words, in PvE, unavoidable damage with a 30sec cd frequency can be self-negated by Mage players. Spells like this diminish a healer's value to a group or should I say increases the level of difficulty for content to become hard. When other roles are provided with an abundance of methods for damage neutralization, healers become increasingly useless. Potions are one of those.

With that said, extremely hard content could be the only place you would legitimately need the presence of a healer in order to clear. But what do you expect these healers to do in the other parts of Ashes of Creation? To be useless thought-out the whole game but play a Cleric character precisely to do that one aspect of it? To be a substitute for potions and player skill? No, what will happen is that the difficulty will be nerfed or the archetype overpowered to a ridiculous level so that it dominates in PvP. The alternative is to have the archetype stay awfully unpopular.

There is nothing special in playing an overpowered archetype. I have suggested a different approach. In Ashes of Creation dying and respawning is an inconvenience much like unavoidable damage is in other games. Intertwine the respawn system with Cleric's gameplay.

You can create anything you wish in this world. You can create party buffs provided by the system if you want to force players to play what they don't want to and create archetype diversity in groups. However, when you create classes that conflict with the systems put in place, you are setting up players to deal with a great deal of unfairness and frustration. After all, this is a PvP-centered game, very competitive in nature.
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Comments

  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Maybe the open-world PvP is going to necessitate the presence of clerics at all times.
    This. That's it.

    L2 had not only rez scrolls, but Blessed rez scrolls that let you rez someone almost instantaneously. You know who was always the most sought after class? Healers. Because you can't survive the open world w/o a god damn healer. Nothing will happen to the archetype if we have scrolls, just as nothing happens to bards when we have food buffs and nothing happens to those very clerics when we have literally any kind of hp regeneration.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    There will be at least 8 Resurrection classes which broadens the scope. If I can run my cleric without a Resurrection spell thanks to everyone packing Resurrection scrolls then more space for other abilities.
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  • I plan to main a cleric. And I hear you, I do. But I don't think you're giving Steven and Intrepid enough credit. I don't think this game launches without a very compelling Cleric.

    Also, as I just posted in another thread, I suspect these scrolls of resurrection will be weak-sauce compared to "the real thing" from a Cleric. I think a Cleric resurrection will be way higher level, in terms of xp debt, rez sickness, etc. Also, I also suspect a resurrection during combat will not be possible from a scroll. This will make the Cleric super in-demand.
  • I will admit though, watching the mage definitely made me question if I should main mage.

    Slumber + reposition + ball lightning + blink was looked awesome AF. HYPE
  • res items will most likely be like res scrolls in L2
    very slow to cast, can be easily interrupted, and won't recover your xp. theywill mostly be used to res your healer in pve and almost no use during pvp, unless you can sneakily pull it off.

    clerics had a res in alpha 1. The more points you put on it, the more hp and mp your target will have after resurrection.

    there will probably be tiers of res scrolls and they probably won't recover as much as the clerics res (it makes sense) so you still want a cleric to res in PVP plus all the other things clerics can do.

    also, there is no guarantee that you can get a res spell if you pick cleric as your secondary archetype with any class...

  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    I don't remember these games being successful. I have never played them myself but what I can tell from the information you provided, they were poorly balanced around everyone needing a cleric. It is not healthy for a game's open-world PvP to revolve around one class. And high demand for a class' presence in groups doesn't necessarily mean that the class has been designed well. Too many players seeking an archetype that people avoid playing is also going to affect the game negatively.
    Yes, pvp mmos aren't as popular as pve ones. Steven knew this when he was coming up with his design.

    Ashes will be a group-based mmo that will try to have a design of "one of each archetype in the party" as their goal. And yes, some archetypes will be rarer than others, as is always the case with pretty much any multiplayer role-based game.

    What I'm more curious about is what kind of mmos have you played where healers weren't a requirement. Was it some single player mmo stuff?
  • Niem Lumel wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Maybe the open-world PvP is going to necessitate the presence of clerics at all times.
    This. That's it.

    L2 had not only rez scrolls, but Blessed rez scrolls that let you rez someone almost instantaneously. You know who was always the most sought after class? Healers. Because you can't survive the open world w/o a god damn healer. Nothing will happen to the archetype if we have scrolls, just as nothing happens to bards when we have food buffs and nothing happens to those very clerics when we have literally any kind of hp regeneration.

    I don't remember these games being successful. I have never played them myself but what I can tell from the information you provided, they were poorly balanced around everyone needing a cleric. It is not healthy for a game's open-world PvP to revolve around one class. And high demand for a class' presence in groups doesn't necessarily mean that the class has been designed well. Too many players seeking an archetype that people avoid playing is also going to affect the game negatively.

    oh it was very successful, specially in asia. and the game didn't revolve around everybody having a bishop. do you prefer if everyclass can tank heal and dps? or if every class is a dps and you can make any party no matter what class you have? ashes uses the trinity, remember that
  • BaSkA_9x2BaSkA_9x2 Member
    edited April 2023
    EDIT: EXP debt is a valid argument, thanks kids.

    I'm personally against any kind of item that can revive players on the spot, unless they're extremely rare, like 100 exist in a server at the same time. I've played games where P2W resurrection scrolls were the meta and it made PvP dull and less enjoyable frequently. Like I said, they were P2W items and of course that was the main issue, but even though that won't be the case in Ashes I think my concern is still valid.

    I would prefer if only Cleric subclasses had revive skills, but if Intrepid want to have more ways of reviving dead players, add revive skills to some classes with Cleric as secondary archetype instead of resurrection scrolls. Obviously these skills should be subpar: can't be used during combat, very long cooldowns, debuffs for revived characters, revive players with 5% HP, etc. and in turn make the Cleric revive skills better (but be careful not to unbalance combat).
    🎶Galo é Galo o resto é bosta🎶
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    BaSkA_9x2 wrote: »
    I don't understand when someone uses EXP debt as an argument and say things like "oh, but the EXP debt will be huge!". The game needs to be balanced on all progression stages, but most importantly when you reach max level.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you can't de-level, what difference does it make if you get a billion EXP debt at max level? Sure, EXP debt will be an issue from level 1 to 49, but I imagine 90% of my time playing will be spent at level 50 before the first expansion/level increase. So, even if resurrection scrolls increase your EXP debt, I don't understand why it's used as an argument.
    While I would agree with you in general, it is worth pointing out here that experience debt in Ashes is essentially the name of a debuff that you have on you when you have experience debt.

    Experience debt in Ashes is a debuff to skills, stats, HP, mana, gear proficiency, and (most importantly imo) it reduces the drop rates of mobs you kill.

    The actual experience debt part of it isn't really the issue.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    BaSkA_9x2 wrote: »
    I don't understand when someone uses EXP debt as an argument and say things like "oh, but the EXP debt will be huge!". The game needs to be balanced on all progression stages, but most importantly when you reach max level.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you can't de-level, what difference does it make if you get a billion EXP debt at max level? Sure, EXP debt will be an issue from level 1 to 49, but I imagine 90% of my time playing will be spent at level 50 before the first expansion/level increase. So, even if resurrection scrolls increase your EXP debt, I don't understand why it's used as an argument.
    You've been here long enough, you should know this.
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    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    NiKr , I would argue that bad MMOs are not as popular as good ones. Usually, PvP MMOs are not balanced well and they turn dead within a few years after release. I have played AION, Albion, BDO, FFXIV, Lost Ark, and WoW. I don't think single-player MMOs exist. But to answer the question, in all of the MMOs I have played healers/supports were a requirement except BDO and Albion.
    BDO is that solo player mmo and if Albion doesn't require a healer (and/or party) to progress through the content - I guess it's a solo mmo too.

    As for badness of unpopular mmos, guess all pvp mmos are bad, because all pvp mmos are way less popular than pve ones. One could maybe argue that point, but I disagree with that purely because the pvp mmo that I played was way better than the pve ones that I tried later on. Obviously that's a subjective opinion, but any measure of "badness" is subjective. The only objective thing is popularity and I've already talked about that point enough.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    mcnasty wrote: »
    I plan to main a cleric. And I hear you, I do. But I don't think you're giving Steven and Intrepid enough credit. I don't think this game launches without a very compelling Cleric.

    Also, as I just posted in another thread, I suspect these scrolls of resurrection will be weak-sauce compared to "the real thing" from a Cleric. I think a Cleric resurrection will be way higher level, in terms of xp debt, rez sickness, etc. Also, I also suspect a resurrection during combat will not be possible from a scroll. This will make the Cleric super in-demand.

    Combat rezzes will be predominantly useless as with each resurrection your target receives ever-growing debuff. Not to mention that the xp debt still applies to each ress so players might even end up griefing themselves.

    I'm not sure I understand this point.

    We don't know for sure what the debuff is when resurrected, or even if there is one, other than the debuff that you get for the dying.

    If you get debuffed for dying, it doesn't matter if you resurrect or not, so you'd resurrect because you think that you can achieve your goal regardless of your debuff.

    Similarly to mcnasty's note before that, I don't quite 'get it' either. The term 'in combat' doesn't necessarily mean anything to the fallen player, and most games don't flag everyone in a group as 'in combat' just because one person in the party attacks something.

    So what exactly is a 'Combat Rez' to people? What is the purpose of it?
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Hello, there. Combat resurrection means resurrection performed during combat. Combat means a fight between two opposing entities. I hope this clears up the confusion. @Azherae

    The difference between combat and out-of-combat resurrection is that the second cannot be used under certain circumstances unlike the first. The purpose of this is balance. Scrolls of Resurrections that are fundamentally broken might be balanced around the aforementioned conditions.

    So, if player A is killed in combat, Player B in their party has not engaged or been hit by player/mob C who killed player A, and player B uses their Scroll of Resurrection, it should work because it is not a Combat Resurrection, correct?
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • DepravedDepraved Member
    edited April 2023
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    @NiKr , I would argue that bad MMOs are not as popular as good ones. Usually, PvP MMOs are not balanced well and they turn dead within a few years after release. I have played AION, Albion, BDO, FFXIV, Lost Ark, and WoW. I don't think single-player MMOs exist. But to answer the question, in all of the MMOs I have played healers/supports were a requirement except BDO and Albion.

    @Depraved , I think if we are going to claim success of an MMO it would be appropriate to back it up with some sort of statistic. I would trust Peon's opinion on the matter as it is much more detailed and objective than yours in this forum post.

    You know that archetypes are going to blend with each other so it is not that impossible to imagine that there will be classes that excel at dps that can also heal and or be tanky. It is what you would inevitably get in a game with 64 classes.

    oh so an opinion is facts and statistics? damn, I didn't know.

    anyways, just do some googling about lineage 1 and 2 (they both offer res scrolls, and also aoc is pretty much 80-90% L2, so the comparison is fair). these 2 games have existed for 20 years (L1 isn't as big anymore, but at some point, it was even more popular than wow in the east, however it wasn't super popular on the west).

    also, l2 private server community is huge. the game is super popular in russia and latin america.

    saying that a game wasn't successful (while admitting you never played it) because people needed a cleric or the game contained res scrolls is for sure lots of facts and statistics, and not an opinion pulled out of your !@#

    usa isn't the only country in the world, btw.


    edit: anyways, res scrolls weren't broken in l2 pvp, just watch this (you can start at 1:18) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dpjekFj9Tw&ab_channel=L2Tutorial

    you could only successfully res someone like this in a PVP if the enemies let you. on top of that, you would res without any buffs (unless you had noble buff), making you essentially useless after you got dressed.

    the real issue is alt cleric boxes resurrecting people outside the party (also, we don't know if you res with your buffs on or not, and if having buffs is a must have in this game or not)
  • Niem Lumel wrote: »
    No, opinions are not facts but you seem to treat them as such. @Depraved

    Lineage 1 and 2 might have been popular 20 years ago but I believe there are precise reasons for those games' downfall.

    Ashes of Creation is a very ambitious game. I very much doubt it is a mere duplicate of Lineage 2. To be honest, I think saying "aoc is pretty much 80-90% L2" is a very big insult to everyone involved with its development.

    nice opinions buddy.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited April 2023
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    No, opinions are not facts but you seem to treat them as such. @Depraved

    Lineage 1 and 2 might have been popular 20 years ago but I believe there are precise reasons for those games' downfall.

    Ashes of Creation is a very ambitious game. I very much doubt it is a mere duplicate of Lineage 2. To be honest, I think saying "aoc is pretty much 80-90% L2" is a big insult to everyone involved with its development.

    Well, since you are using this reasoning type, could you please let us know the threshold of popularity and year cutoff for when a game's mechanics can be considered relevant to this discussion?
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • IskiabIskiab Member
    edited April 2023
    It’s a PvX game, all classes being able to res is mandatory. I think the OP’s background is PvE so hasn’t seen it work, or seen how without it open world PvP doesn’t work.

    Unlike PvE where a good dps is most valued in PvP good healers are most valued. Everyone being able to res doesn’t have an effect on healer’s value at all.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    You are asking the wrong questions and the wrong person. @Azherae

    I am a member of this community that plans on playing Ashes of Creation. I submitted my concerns about the cleric archetype and the perspective provided comes from a person who has played support/healing classes throughout MMOs and has competed with and against esports players in LoL. Intrepid Studio is free to do anything they please with the information provided. I am not the one to set thresholds and criteria for anything here.

    Then the popularity of Lineage 2 is of no consequence and therefore if someone says that you should not be concerned because of their experiences in L2, you should probably not respond with a counterpoint that relies on the idea that the game was not popular or that it failed for some specific reason that we don't know.

    There will be no way to have a discussion if you attempt to disqualify the experiences or counterpoints of others based on things like that.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • pyrealpyreal Member, Warrior of Old
    Looking forward to testing the Cleric out. It'll be my main so I won't hesitate to give feedback.
  • (I am going on memory alone here and my INT stat is crap - if I am mistaken and/or misremembering something please correct me.)

    Heya, Niem! Cheers for contributing with your thoughts! Happy to hear that you enjoy supportive classes, but I do believe that you've misunderstood the design if you think that cleric will in any way be a "healbot".

    I read that you play/played a lot of LoL (I used to be a fairly decent LoL player before I became a parent), so I'll use some examples from there.

    First of all - you want to avoid being a boring healbot; easily available resses should be a delight! That way you can pick/play any supportive class you like without having people whining about wanting a ress. (How fun is it to be forced to play Yuumi when you just wanna be a Thresh?)

    Cleric looks like it will have much more going on than just heals and resses. It seems like they will provide decent damage and debuffing as well as a bit of CC.

    If that still does not seem like your cup of tea, then fear not. If buffing and enchanting is more your thing, then keep your eyes on the bard and await their reveal. If you prefer a more "Jack of all trade"-approach then look for the summoner. :smile:

    And dont forget, secondary classes can affect the gameplay elements quite a bit.
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  • FantmxFantmx Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I mentioned this in another thread but I still don't like the idea of items taking the place of important class skills. I am glad there are at least levels of different and that the cleric res will still be preferred but I would rather the idea of not taking a class that can res be a risk that a group decides to take and if they fail they can try and recruit help from their guild or buy a res from another nearby player.
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