Glorious Alpha Two Testers!

Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!

For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.

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Scrolls of Resurrection & Cleric feedback

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Comments

  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    wow this thread lmao.

    Never seen someone try to hard to say a class is bad before it was developed. And side track every possible way instead of making a positive discussion on what he would want to see the class be like.

    This is equal to picking up a steak at the grocery store and someone yelling "its raw"

    raw lmao T_T

    I realized arguing with him was pointless about 10 pages ago lol
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    I realized arguing with him was pointless about 10 pages ago lol
    Ok, so I wasn't the only one that perceived their discussion methods as alienating :)
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  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    So what does a good cleric look like? Inquiring minds would like to know.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Solvryn wrote: »
    So what does a good cleric look like? Inquiring minds would like to know.

    I mean, we asked this question about 8 or pages ago.

    Rather than answering the question, all we got was a list of things they didn't like.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    However, if you look at that first picture, you will note that if you only read the three words you have deceptively boxed out, it may well appear as if it is an attack on you. However, since English is a language where you can easily take things out of context if you ignore the words before of after a carefully selected few, we can examine things further than just your cute little box.

    Seeing you talk about deception is comical.

    gap0aoj8h83v.png
    Noaani wrote: »
    If you look at that sentence as a whole, it is abundantly clear that I am talking about the position I outlined above. The notion of saying that a third of the healer classes in a long standing MMO are not in fact healers does indeed make you look stupid.

    That is an attack on that position.

    Concealing a lie with another lie. The never-ending cycle.

    5quarcp09jq1.png

    The bolded text refers to this point. As if there ever was a game where the so-called healers could only use buffs to increase max HP and not be able to heal damage dealt to that bonus HP.

    Quoting this post because I would like to respond to it, but not until the quotes are actually done using the proper quote function.

    I want to continue the discussion (such as it is), but proper communication is obviously important.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    wow this thread lmao.

    Never seen someone try to hard to say a class is bad before it was developed. And side track every possible way instead of making a positive discussion on what he would want to see the class be like.

    This is equal to picking up a steak at the grocery store and someone yelling "its raw"

    You know your steak is bad when it stinks.

    The thing is you aren't anywhere near it and can't smell it. You are seeing it from a distance and assuming things.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Solvryn wrote: »
    So what does a good cleric look like? Inquiring minds would like to know.

    He won't answer is the thing i asked him, and he starts avoiding the topic and talking about other things like taunts and tanks.. Any topic he can use to talk about and avoid answering.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    There needs to be room for skill expression and riskier gameplay encouraged and expected.
    Riskier gameplay should indeed be encouraged - but that is done via content, not class.
  • LaetitianLaetitian Member
    edited May 2023
    Nah, I disagree Noaani, I'd second pretty much everything Niem has said in that last post.

    Skill expression in content is a thing, and it's why it was unnecessary to judge the enjoyability of the class prematurely, but that doesn't mean it's not fair to suggest that the class design itself should already reward skill expression (perhaps more than we've seen promised in the class reveal.) The most reliable way to introduce that challenging and rewarding gameplay through class design is to give classes enough impactful tools to choose from that the choices they go for matter, and there aren't just a row of single obvious decisions that 99% of the playerbase will logically know to go for anyway.
    The only one who can validate you for all the posts you didn't write is you.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited May 2023
    Laetitian wrote: »
    The most reliable way to introduce that challenging and rewarding gameplay through class design is to give classes enough impactful tools to choose from that the choices they go for matter, and there aren't just a row of single obvious decisions that 99% of the playerbase will logically know to go for anyway.
    This part I agree with.

    It is the notion of riskier gameplay being a factor of skill expression that I disagree with. Using "skill expression" to introduce challenge is literally the same as playing poorly to make it harder.

    If you want to play the game in a more risky manner, you dont do that by altering the way you play your class. You do that by taking more more or harder opponents.

    If you look through the 12 Cleric abilities we know of so far, there are already some situations one could imagine where different players would opt for different abilities. For example, some players would likely keep the buff from Divine Light up on themselves as much as possible, while others would hold that off as an "oh shit" ability. Then there is the obvious fact that some will use Judgement more as a heal, while others will use it more to deal damage, relying on their other healing abilities. Those that use Judgement in this way are likely to have more Conviction stacks, meaning they may opt to use Cleansing Wave as their primary cleansing method, while others may use that Conviction for more powerful healing. Those that dont use Judgemwnt as an attack may find they need to spend more time cleansing than those that do.

    So, we have seen about a third of the cleric abilities (from what we have been told), and literally none of the augments - yet already there is room for skill expression. More room than some other populat games give players.
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  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Solvryn wrote: »
    So what does a good cleric look like? Inquiring minds would like to know.

    My personal opinion is that a good Cleric would be one that has a variety of utilities to choose from. For example, aside from healing damage, it may also have cleanses, shields, buffs that increase defensive stats, buffs that increase damage multipliers, movement speed abilities, disengage, silence, cooldown reduction(reduce the cooldowns of your party members), and buff timer amplifier(you can increase the duration of other people's buffs) but we have Bard so the number of supportive tools Cleric can receive is limited. The primary Cleric archetype does not need to have all of this. These are supportive aspects that can be integrated into their abilities later on. The different abilities in their kit also need to synchronize in some way whether it is directly (f.e. a 50% increase on your next heal or your next heal grants increased movement speed after a successful cleanse, it could be a passive trait with its own cooldown that is separate from the cooldown of the cleanse) or indirectly through a gauge. There needs to be room for skill expression and riskier gameplay encouraged and expected. The Cleric showcased does the opposite by putting the damage and healing for a single target on a shared cooldown. You can hardly ever go wrong if you choose to use it to heal when people are lacking HP in a PvP fight. Cleric stats will mostly be synergized with healing better than damage so it dampens the DPS use of the ability even more. We can generate convictions that increase other heals which is nice.

    Nearly all types of HP restoring abilities can be categorized as Single Target (ST) or Area of Effect(AoE) heals. They in turn can be either regens, burst heals(healing instantly or healing with greatly increased value) or normal heal(the ordinary castable heal). And I think that the core issue of healing could be managed through the use of a single button that synergizes with the different aspects of your kit.

    So this is something you'd like to see in the next iteration, make sure you post it in the appropriate channels.

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    I don't even like doing this. Perma blocked. Have a nice day.

    My experience is that people that state this dont really mean it. Statements like this are usually made for attention, there is no reason for it other than that.
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  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Well this thread has been nuked. It no longer goes to the top.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
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  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Solvryn wrote: »
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Solvryn wrote: »
    So what does a good cleric look like? Inquiring minds would like to know.

    My personal opinion is that a good Cleric would be one that has a variety of utilities to choose from. For example, aside from healing damage, it may also have cleanses, shields, buffs that increase defensive stats, buffs that increase damage multipliers, movement speed abilities, disengage, silence, cooldown reduction(reduce the cooldowns of your party members), and buff timer amplifier(you can increase the duration of other people's buffs) but we have Bard so the number of supportive tools Cleric can receive is limited. The primary Cleric archetype does not need to have all of this. These are supportive aspects that can be integrated into their abilities later on. The different abilities in their kit also need to synchronize in some way whether it is directly (f.e. a 50% increase on your next heal or your next heal grants increased movement speed after a successful cleanse, it could be a passive trait with its own cooldown that is separate from the cooldown of the cleanse) or indirectly through a gauge. There needs to be room for skill expression and riskier gameplay encouraged and expected. The Cleric showcased does the opposite by putting the damage and healing for a single target on a shared cooldown. You can hardly ever go wrong if you choose to use it to heal when people are lacking HP in a PvP fight. Cleric stats will mostly be synergized with healing better than damage so it dampens the DPS use of the ability even more. We can generate convictions that increase other heals which is nice.

    Nearly all types of HP restoring abilities can be categorized as Single Target (ST) or Area of Effect(AoE) heals. They in turn can be either regens, burst heals(healing instantly or healing with greatly increased value) or normal heal(the ordinary castable heal). And I think that the core issue of healing could be managed through the use of a single button that synergizes with the different aspects of your kit.

    So this is something you'd like to see in the next iteration, make sure you post it in the appropriate channels.

    I don't know where else to post it and it's likely not happening because we have a support archetype that works with buffs so if they give cleric the same we are gonna end up with two archetypes that do the same so I ended up with the respawning idea.
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Solvryn wrote: »
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Solvryn wrote: »
    So what does a good cleric look like? Inquiring minds would like to know.

    My personal opinion is that a good Cleric would be one that has a variety of utilities to choose from. For example, aside from healing damage, it may also have cleanses, shields, buffs that increase defensive stats, buffs that increase damage multipliers, movement speed abilities, disengage, silence, cooldown reduction(reduce the cooldowns of your party members), and buff timer amplifier(you can increase the duration of other people's buffs) but we have Bard so the number of supportive tools Cleric can receive is limited. The primary Cleric archetype does not need to have all of this. These are supportive aspects that can be integrated into their abilities later on. The different abilities in their kit also need to synchronize in some way whether it is directly (f.e. a 50% increase on your next heal or your next heal grants increased movement speed after a successful cleanse, it could be a passive trait with its own cooldown that is separate from the cooldown of the cleanse) or indirectly through a gauge. There needs to be room for skill expression and riskier gameplay encouraged and expected. The Cleric showcased does the opposite by putting the damage and healing for a single target on a shared cooldown. You can hardly ever go wrong if you choose to use it to heal when people are lacking HP in a PvP fight. Cleric stats will mostly be synergized with healing better than damage so it dampens the DPS use of the ability even more. We can generate convictions that increase other heals which is nice.

    Nearly all types of HP restoring abilities can be categorized as Single Target (ST) or Area of Effect(AoE) heals. They in turn can be either regens, burst heals(healing instantly or healing with greatly increased value) or normal heal(the ordinary castable heal). And I think that the core issue of healing could be managed through the use of a single button that synergizes with the different aspects of your kit.

    So this is something you'd like to see in the next iteration, make sure you post it in the appropriate channels.

    I don't know where else to post it and it's likely not happening because we have a support archetype that works with buffs so if they give cleric the same we are gonna end up with two archetypes that do the same so I ended up with the respawning idea.

    I think we're going to see some overlap, I'd be damned if I played a class that's going to die just because I don't have access to being able to heal myself.

    That'd make for a terrible experience.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited May 2023
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    If Alpha 2 launches with Cleric having 10 different healing abilities that do nothing more than heal in my opinion there is nothing to test. I can give an example of 10 healing abilities on the spot. And regarding the cleanse from Cleansing Wave, its use is impractical, especially in PvP. First, you have a heal attached to it, the cleanse is not instant, you need a second heal to trigger its effect so if you also do not have many instant healing abilities what you are left with is a buff that triggers a cleansing effect after you have finished casting a healing ability. But imagine what that would look like in a PvP fight. In the perfect scenario, you have already applied the buff on someone else before they got cc-ed. And then in order to cleanse that cc you need to wait extra seconds to cast another heal to dispel the cc. By the time you have finished casting the cc could already be gone. I think things like that show that no one has been thinking about what abilities to give Cleric.

    Being able to find a situation in which you would want the function (cleansing), but where the specific ability isnt the most suited isnt a great argument to make at all.

    First of all, there is the fact that if Intrepid add in a single target cleanse to either the cleric or the Bard, your entire point here falls totally flat.

    Second, coming from a top end PvE perspective, I can think of many times that specific ability could be put to great use on raid content.

    The other fairly important point to make, that I didnt originally think needed to be made but now do, is that even if the cleric class has 10 heals, individual players will only have as many heals as they feel they need.

    Unlike most MMO's, players dont just "have" every ability available to the class. In fact, the assumption is that most player builds will probably use less than half of the abilities. It has been said that a player would be able to get by with as few as 6 abilities.

    A cleric with 6 abilities basically needs an AoE heal, single target heal, damage dealing ability, res, cleanse and a survival buff of some sort. There isnt room for mechanics that require cross over of abilities at all, the cleanse cant be tied to needing to use the AoE heal, for example.

    As such, those basic, stand alone abilities are literally REQUIRED to exist in the class. From there, I would expect to see two other basic mechanics (Conviction being one) for players to opt to spec in to.

    This means the class does indeed need 10+ heals, but you, as a player playing a cleric, may not.
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