yet another tired rant about action vs tab vs hybrid insipred by random youtube vids....

I recently watched a video talking about the combat in ashes and before i say anything else, i love ashes direction on most things and at least dont hate its direction its going with the action vs tab middle ground it seems to be choosing but i do have an idea of how to do it better that make the game feel less gamey and more immersive while also making it easier for people to get into all the while still holding the same if not more complexity.

Now as for my ideas, i think that going with passive block and passive evasion stats being the key major way for defending yourself for everyone aside from figher who is meant to be mobile meaning they should have either a passive to allow for active dodges at the cost of resources perhaps with a 2 second cooldown and minor i-frames where if you press space while moving in combat, you dodge in your current direction with that look being changed by your augments. beyond that i also feel that other classes also could have soft active dodges that give no i frames and are purely movement but at a high cost with a high cooldown like the mages teleport so if you dont trust your rng than you can avoid an attack

Beyond that i think that tanks could have a passive that allows them to use timed blocks as well as perhaps the general active blocks all classes get where in any class CAN active block but only tank primaries and secondaries can actually get timed blocks which make it so their block mitigation for the first second or maybe 2 seconds after they block have a drastically high block mit that stays at that flat value until the second or 2 is up where it returns to normal active block valuse with no benefits to that aside from more armor, health, and a shield perhaps allowing for moderately higher block mit on normal active blocking.

now as for the last and real contraverstial thing that ashes isnt doing rn and doesnt seem to plan on doing is that they are going with the camera lock system of games like GW2 where you click a button and your camera locks in place with your mouse and pressing it again lets your mouse move freely on the screen to select your abilites and use tab targeting. personally i feel ESO did it best with ability bars that i would say would be best limited to 6 abilites per bar AT MOST so that way you dont need to awkwardly click on your abilites but can press the number key quick and easily with than a key to swap bars. this also could even allow for ESO's style of ultimate ablities that could be used for stalemate breaks if that becomes an apparant issue just like how medics uber in TF2 was meant to break stalemates.

Really i feel if that last point can be covered by the devs and done well with maybe like 4 ability bars of 5 or 3 of 6 allowing still for either the 20 abilites they want or just 18, than i feel that ashes can finally nail hybrid combat and even do interesting things like eso but better where they could have it so you only need one weapon or set of weapons if your using 2 weapons like 2 daggers or something with not having any more than that will mean when you swap bars, all bars will us your only active weapons and this allowing you to also have multiple weapons equipped even if you can only get the benfits of one at a time which for those who play eso, you understand that the gear system also is pretty perfect even if ESO is horrible balanced because its balanced around solo play first and foremost. like with a gear system where you have set pieces of armor that have a very achievable max limit but NUMEROUS sets all being useful for different situations or builds making all gear you get useful for whatever its set bonus is.

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Solvryn

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yet another tired rant about action vs tab vs hybrid insipred by random youtube vids....

That’s bloody dangerous, most of the people online don’t know what the hell tab, hybrid, or action really means.

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I recently watched a video talking about the combat in ashes and before i say anything else, i love ashes direction on most things and at least dont hate its direction its going with the action vs tab middle ground it seems to be choosing but i do have an idea of how to do it better that make the game feel less gamey and more immersive while also making it easier for people to get into all the while still holding the same if not more complexity.

Complexity is good, if done right.

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Now as for my ideas, i think that going with passive block and passive evasion stats being the key major way for defending yourself for everyone aside from figher who is meant to be mobile meaning they should have either a passive to allow for active dodges at the cost of resources perhaps with a 2 second cooldown and minor i-frames where if you press space while moving in combat, you dodge in your current direction with that look being changed by your augments. beyond that i also feel that other classes also could have soft active dodges that give no i frames and are purely movement but at a high cost with a high cooldown like the mages teleport so if you dont trust your rng than you can avoid an attack

I think a good middle-ground for a hybrid is not to half ass the action portion and cater to mostly the tab portion. I’ve played tab, action, and hybrid; right now Ashes is in the tab territory when it comes to hybrid. In order to move it to the enter we need to not have a shit ton of output randomness and a bit more deterministic game-play.

I would prefer we do not have passive defensives; there are ways to achieve a middle ground that doesn’t involve a whole lot of RNG and probability and rewards the high skill player.

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Beyond that i think that tanks could have a passive that allows them to use timed blocks as well as perhaps the general active blocks all classes get where in any class CAN active block but only tank primaries and secondaries can actually get timed blocks which make it so their block mitigation for the first second or maybe 2 seconds after they block have a drastically high block mit that stays at that flat value until the second or 2 is up where it returns to normal active block valuse with no benefits to that aside from more armor, health, and a shield perhaps allowing for moderately higher block mit on normal active blocking.

If they have perfect block and increased mitigation for imperfect blocks or bracing, that’s perfectly fine to me. There’s many creative ways Intrepid can go about it.

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now as for the last and real contraverstial thing that ashes isnt doing rn and doesnt seem to plan on doing is that they are going with the camera lock system of games like GW2 where you click a button and your camera locks in place with your mouse and pressing it again lets your mouse move freely on the screen to select your abilites and use tab targeting. personally i feel ESO did it best with ability bars that i would say would be best limited to 6 abilites per bar AT MOST so that way you dont need to awkwardly click on your abilites but can press the number key quick and easily with than a key to swap bars. this also could even allow for ESO's style of ultimate ablities that could be used for stalemate breaks if that becomes an apparant issue just like how medics uber in TF2 was meant to break stalemates.

Are you talking about the action camera? Ashes does indeed have an “action” camera.

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Really i feel if that last point can be covered by the devs and done well with maybe like 4 ability bars of 5 or 3 of 6 allowing still for either the 20 abilites they want or just 18, than i feel that ashes can finally nail hybrid combat and even do interesting things like eso but better where they could have it so you only need one weapon or set of weapons if your using 2 weapons like 2 daggers or something with not having any more than that will mean when you swap bars, all bars will us your only active weapons and this allowing you to also have multiple weapons equipped even if you can only get the benfits of one at a time which for those who play eso, you understand that the gear system also is pretty perfect even if ESO is horrible balanced because its balanced around solo play first and foremost. like with a gear system where you have set pieces of armor that have a very achievable max limit but NUMEROUS sets all being useful for different situations or builds making all gear you get useful for whatever its set bonus is.

ESO isn’t really a true hybrid, certainly not a good one if anyone wants to consider it so. ESOs a great example of what MMOs should never do.

Mag7spy

Im not really for iframes on 2 second dodges that are spammy. I can deal with super armour since you can still be hit.

Rookk

ok so imma apologize that i aint gonna target specifc parts of your comment cause MY OWN writing sucks shit and its hard to parse out whats my terrible writing and whats your actual response but ill just say in response to the ideas on the rng defences first that the reason for that is that many people in a game with perfect dodges and consistant active blocking like eso, it makes it a lot more difficult to work as a team properly as your too focused on your own personal skill with the idea being each class has a soft dodge like the mages teleport that is has a higher resource cost and cooldown but comes with either instant movement to a specific location or allows for a quicker cooldown and lower cost movement ability that allows you to reposition yourself out of enemy AOE's or attack range with most single target attacks like the yellow flash attacks in ESO i feel should be restricted to melee or be on bosses that should be able to be more easily aggro'd to the tanks or perhaps require support characters wit the ability to help tanks channel the aggro onto them. the idea is that with the rng, the people it would help most is the magic and ranged dps with less movement abilites as well as supports who also would lack movement with the main point being that a good aggro system would have it that if the tank is doing their job, all the enemies should be focusing on them so the few hits that get through to the supports and ranged dps either will be dodges by their soft dodges as they get out of range of the AOE's or melee single target attacks OR they will be a dice roll as to whether they take dmg or not if they failed to position themselves well with melee fighters should have good movement with rouge perhaps also getting their own passive dodge with the fighters passive being a basically no cooldown dark souls looking roll with very minor to maybe no i frames but great potential for high movement and rouges having the fighters old dodge we saw in the figher showcase where they have maybe a 2 to 3 second cooldown and have moderate i frames with perhaps a much higher cost allowing them to be more reckless but also with much greater risk.

god looking at that, i am already so sorry for my run on sentances but the point is that my system i feel would hit that middle ground and especially with the bar swaps, it removes the need for the clunky cam that swaps between being a normal action cam and a tab cam to try to awkwardly hit a middle ground. the whole idea of that part is that you should be able to instantly active whatever ability you want without looking at the key or doing anything but simply moving your finger to the right number key (note that im not saying no cooldowns but that you shouldnt have to take your hands of the keyboard or mouse to reach the damn 7, 8, 9, and 0 keys with honestly the 6 key also is really to far to reach for a hybrid game hence why ESO is broken into 2 ability bars of 5 abilities on each with an ultimate linked to an entirely different key on the keyboard still within your left hand range.

Rookk

beyond that to be more specific with the camera thing, im talking about how the camera gets swapped from an action cam locked to your mouse movement to a tab cam where you can freely use your mouse to select anything on the screen being a very poor middle ground that slows combat and makes it just clunky and feel outdated.

Rookk

Mag7spy wrote: »

Im not really for iframes on 2 second dodges that are spammy. I can deal with super armour since you can still be hit.

oh i 100% agree hence if i remember right, i did or at least shoulda made clear that there was HEAVY air quotes on dodges getting I frames UNLESS they have a high cooldown hence why i stated in that later comment to the first commenter, that the rouges also should have a good movement passive since they need to be mobile and able to take risks when they go melee as rouges usually are more melee focused than ranged focus with a whole sperate ranger class making that an even clearer distinction with rouges would have a like maybe even 5 to 8 second cooldown on a i frame dodge that has high movement perhaps even ripping the animations from the dodge we saw stevens fighter using in the fighter showcase with the fighter getting a perhaps no cooldown but also no i frame dodge that would look like a classic dark souls roll with the idea being that even without i frames, they are able to be very mobile and can avoid aoes easy that way or get out of the range of a bosses single target if they have the missfortune of getting targeted likely by having been too agressive and having accidentally pulled the aggro from the tanks.

Mag7spy

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Mag7spy wrote: »

Im not really for iframes on 2 second dodges that are spammy. I can deal with super armour since you can still be hit.

oh i 100% agree hence if i remember right, i did or at least shoulda made clear that there was HEAVY air quotes on dodges getting I frames UNLESS they have a high cooldown hence why i stated in that later comment to the first commenter, that the rouges also should have a good movement passive since they need to be mobile and able to take risks when they go melee as rouges usually are more melee focused than ranged focus with a whole sperate ranger class making that an even clearer distinction with rouges would have a like maybe even 5 to 8 second cooldown on a i frame dodge that has high movement perhaps even ripping the animations from the dodge we saw stevens fighter using in the fighter showcase with the fighter getting a perhaps no cooldown but also no i frame dodge that would look like a classic dark souls roll with the idea being that even without i frames, they are able to be very mobile and can avoid aoes easy that way or get out of the range of a bosses single target if they have the missfortune of getting targeted likely by having been too agressive and having accidentally pulled the aggro from the tanks.

remember in show cases they use god mode.

Solvryn

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ok so imma apologize that i aint gonna target specifc parts of your comment cause MY OWN writing sucks shit and its hard to parse out whats my terrible writing

You own it is what counts here.

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and whats your actual response but ill just say in response to the ideas on the rng defences first that the reason for that is that many people in a game with perfect dodges and consistant active blocking like eso, it makes it a lot more difficult to work as a team properly as your too focused on your own personal skill

I have never had this problem in ESO or any action combat I’ve played to do mastering mechanics. It takes time, but eventually perfect block becomes second nature.
Perfect block is a boon to those who understand map movement, positioning, control, geometry, and a bane to those who do not.
Not to mention, a team is only as strong as the weakest individual on it. True synergy is how you harmonize together not a mechanic given to you by the devs.

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with the idea being each class has a soft dodge like the mages teleport that is has a higher resource cost and cooldown but comes with either instant movement to a specific location or allows for a quicker cooldown and lower cost movement ability that allows you to reposition yourself out of enemy AOE's or attack range with most single target attacks like the yellow flash attacks in ESO i feel should be restricted to melee or be on bosses that should be able to be more easily aggro'd to the tanks or perhaps require support characters wit the ability to help tanks channel the aggro onto them. the idea is that with the rng, the people it would help most is the magic and ranged dps with less movement abilites as well as supports who also would lack movement

Map Movement, Map Control, Positioning, and Geometry, if you aren’t moving as a team you aren’t moving at all, you’re a cluster fuck at that point.

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with the main point being that a good aggro system would have it that if the tank is doing their job, all the enemies should be focusing on them so the few hits that get through to the supports and ranged dps either will be dodges by their soft dodges as they get out of range of the AOE's or melee single target attacks OR they will be a dice roll as to whether they take dmg or not if they failed to position themselves well with melee fighters should have good movement with rouge perhaps also getting their own passive dodge with the fighters passive being a basically no cooldown dark souls looking roll with very minor to maybe no i frames but great potential for high movement and rouges having the fighters old dodge we saw in the figher showcase where they have maybe a 2 to 3 second cooldown and have moderate i frames with perhaps a much higher cost allowing them to be more reckless but also with much greater risk.

I think this also comes down to the above, honestly this whole conversation does. I still don’t see a reason for that in a hybrid, its fine for a tab game or tab enhanced game. Not a hybrid.

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god looking at that, i am already so sorry for my run on sentances but the point is that my system i feel would hit that middle ground and especially with the bar swaps, it removes the need for the clunky cam that swaps between being a normal action cam and a tab cam to try to awkwardly hit a middle ground. the whole idea of that part is that you should be able to instantly active whatever ability you want without looking at the key or doing anything but simply moving your finger to the right number key (note that im not saying no cooldowns but that you shouldnt have to take your hands of the keyboard or mouse to reach the damn 7, 8, 9, and 0 keys with honestly the 6 key also is really to far to reach for a hybrid game hence why ESO is broken into 2 ability bars of 5 abilities on each with an ultimate linked to an entirely different key on the keyboard still within your left hand range.

I don’t have this problem because I purchase the equipment to play the game I want to play. Cam swaps do suck, in the perfect world we’d be a pure hybrid instead of a split hybrid.

Rookk

Mag7spy wrote: »

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Mag7spy wrote: »

Im not really for iframes on 2 second dodges that are spammy. I can deal with super armour since you can still be hit.

oh i 100% agree hence if i remember right, i did or at least shoulda made clear that there was HEAVY air quotes on dodges getting I frames UNLESS they have a high cooldown hence why i stated in that later comment to the first commenter, that the rouges also should have a good movement passive since they need to be mobile and able to take risks when they go melee as rouges usually are more melee focused than ranged focus with a whole sperate ranger class making that an even clearer distinction with rouges would have a like maybe even 5 to 8 second cooldown on a i frame dodge that has high movement perhaps even ripping the animations from the dodge we saw stevens fighter using in the fighter showcase with the fighter getting a perhaps no cooldown but also no i frame dodge that would look like a classic dark souls roll with the idea being that even without i frames, they are able to be very mobile and can avoid aoes easy that way or get out of the range of a bosses single target if they have the missfortune of getting targeted likely by having been too agressive and having accidentally pulled the aggro from the tanks.

remember in show cases they use god mode.

true but i dont see how that applise to what i said. XD i was talking about making it so the dodges fit the roles more, pun not intended with the idea being that a rouge shounldnt need mobility as much as a fighter since they arent going to be in the fact of the boss but instead looking to get behind them AND likely will play safer than a figther in terms of aggro only hitting for massive hits with team boosts and at best nomally keeping the same dmg numbers as fighters up with IF they need to avoid an attack because of bad positioning or poor aggression management from them or their tanks, they can have a quick safe i frame dodge with a LONG cooldown for an ability of its type that if used right could save them from their or their teams mistake. on the other hand i was saying that fighters should have HIGH mobility cause they will be in the face of the boss risking the aoes and still with the possible worry of poor agression management although again, aoes will be their major worry since most boss aoes are forward facing meaning they need quick and easy as well as cheep movement that allows them to speedily get out of aoes fast but so as to make it not spammy totally, it really shouldnt have i frames or AT MOST should have very very very very very very very little and precise i frames for the most skilled to allow that movement out of aoes or god fighters to in a way, face tank a boos through pure skill.

Rookk

Solvryn wrote: »

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this time i quoted your name to make it clearer who i am responding too but again, i falied 11th and 12th grade english and only was allowed to graduate because of the pandemic sooo yea XD but my point is that in a game where EVERYONE has access to a perfect/ timed block mechanic and EVERYONE also has access to a perfect dodge mechanic, its hard to not make that THE ENTIRE focus for everyones defence and like i pointed out, its just not needed as the main theing in a holy trinity game, action or tab is that the supports main concern is proper positioning which really shouldnt be hard if the tanks do their job and everyones aware of the boss mechnics so as to know where to avoid the AOEs hence why all that is needed for them is a rng evasion, block system that means the odd hit every few minutes because of their own poor positioning or their teams poor teamwork boils down to an rng if the team gets fucked over for that mistake that really shouldant of been able to happen in the first place since the support shouldnt even be doing any real dmg AT ALL and should be focusing 100% on their role to support the team whether with buffs or debuffs cleansing or debuff application to enemies or healing. basically for them especially they really shouldnt need anything more and trying to make the most stat focused roles NEED to also consider action combat evasion as oppsed to good positioning and teamwork makes group focused gamplay to difficult.

like ESO for as much as i love the game for what it is, it is DEFINANTLY NOT the grade A example of good MMORPG balance to the point it doesnt classify in my mind as a MMORPG but instead as an open world single player rpg with multiplayer elemnets. like sure in that game it doesnt really matter for the healers 100% because EVERYONE is expected to be able to tank at least one yellow flash single target move from a boss if needed and have enough self healing to surivive with trials really acutally being more a question of good tanks and dps' with maybe a healer or 2 for extra helaing just to be sure with how op the dps is that EVERYONE going either dps or tank is kinda pointless and more healing to make sure mistakes are erased is better. in a game like ashes tho, the issue will be that the supports are going to be the main squad leaders who are focusing on reading everything about peoples stats like their current hp and what buffs and debuffs are on them and what debuffs are out on the enemies that need reupping and who needs helaing and who needs to fall back and restore their resources and so on. having them need to manage ALL of that while also having to deal with action combat evasion systems is too much and would make the role not only damn near impossble to do even just well but would also scare everyone away from going support meaning there would be a lack of supports which is a death sentence to role based games.

Rookk

basically the idea is that the only classes that should even come close to NEEDING perfect dodges/ blocks should be the tanks and melee fighters which are the tanks, fighters, and rouges. so long as they are accounted for than the other classes who focus on range or support shouldnt need anything more than that.

Rookk

here for those who dont really still get what im talking about with the shit already that is gonna be on the plates of all supports and also to a lesser degree, tanks, you should look up a anime called log horizon with animesion which you can find by looking up animekisa and clicking its link or zoro.to are some good sites to watch the show and basically its placed in a mmorpg fantasy world that becomes real like all iseikai today but i think for people a bit more invested in ashes, you might find that log horizon looks a lot like ashes seems like it will be on launch and its based well enough on previous games like WoW in terms of where it draws the mmorpg ideas which makes the points they make about these types of games fun to think about. point is that pure action combat and pure tab combat options people can switch between wont work because you will enevitably need to just flat out make a action combat system AND a full tab combat system with how the ashes devs are going that people witll opt into one or the other and it just will cause uncessary issues. i stand by the idea that its more so the support roles and ranged dps roles that need the tab combat mechanics to make them best able to do their jobs while the melee fighters who are in the think of it would benefit from having some interesting action combat to play around with to spice up their roles and place more skill on those postitions so people dont just default to dps like they do in games with a role based system like eso or even overwatch where there has always been a dps overflow issue...

Solvryn

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this time i quoted your name to make it clearer who i am responding too but again, i falied 11th and 12th grade english and only was allowed to graduate because of the pandemic sooo yea XD but my point is that in a game where EVERYONE has access to a perfect/ timed block mechanic and EVERYONE also has access to a perfect dodge mechanic, its hard to not make that THE ENTIRE focus for everyones defence and like i pointed out, its just not needed as the main theing in a holy trinity game, action or tab is that the supports main concern is proper positioning which really shouldnt be hard if the tanks do their job and everyones aware of the boss mechnics so as to know where to avoid the AOEs hence why all that is needed for them is a rng evasion, block system that means the odd hit every few minutes because of their own poor positioning or their teams poor teamwork boils down to an rng if the team gets fucked over for that mistake that really shouldant of been able to happen in the first place since the support shouldnt even be doing any real dmg AT ALL and should be focusing 100% on their role to support the team whether with buffs or debuffs cleansing or debuff application to enemies or healing. basically for them especially they really shouldnt need anything more and trying to make the most stat focused roles NEED to also consider action combat evasion as oppsed to good positioning and teamwork makes group focused gamplay to difficult.

like ESO for as much as i love the game for what it is, it is DEFINANTLY NOT the grade A example of good MMORPG balance to the point it doesnt classify in my mind as a MMORPG but instead as an open world single player rpg with multiplayer elemnets. like sure in that game it doesnt really matter for the healers 100% because EVERYONE is expected to be able to tank at least one yellow flash single target move from a boss if needed and have enough self healing to surivive with trials really acutally being more a question of good tanks and dps' with maybe a healer or 2 for extra helaing just to be sure with how op the dps is that EVERYONE going either dps or tank is kinda pointless and more healing to make sure mistakes are erased is better. in a game like ashes tho, the issue will be that the supports are going to be the main squad leaders who are focusing on reading everything about peoples stats like their current hp and what buffs and debuffs are on them and what debuffs are out on the enemies that need reupping and who needs helaing and who needs to fall back and restore their resources and so on. having them need to manage ALL of that while also having to deal with action combat evasion systems is too much and would make the role not only damn near impossble to do even just well but would also scare everyone away from going support meaning there would be a lack of supports which is a death sentence to role based games.

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The thing about RNG stats is that they're more oriented toward randomness and not deterministic gameplay. Which takes the lowers skill ceiling and mastery the game can have.

I get your point, but also understand that I prefer a high skill ceiling. I get that some people would not be able to play it, but there are many of us in the Ashes community who would not have a problem with that level of gameplay.

Rookk

Solvryn wrote: »

I get your point, but also understand that I prefer a high skill ceiling. I get that some people would not be able to play it, but there are many of us in the Ashes community who would not have a problem with that level of gameplay.

thats the thing. like i said, eso IS NOT anywhere close to balanced how a real mmorpg would be seen as the massively multiplayer means ALL aspects are heavily based on multiplayer including even pvp with the thing that i will say once more is that the amount of shit that a support or even just a ranged dps needs to consider especially since bows should require arrows but be either more powerful than ranged magic or much faster and more consistant and easy to use. like the point im trying to make that its the base mechanics of the class also working together with your groups WILDLY different mechanics and roles they play with what you are advocating for is a singleplayer focused action combat game like BDO or ESO. like sure they are fun games but if thats what you want than you might just actually not be into mmorpgs but instead like i said at best, open world multiplayer rpgs or in reality, open world rpgs with multiplayer elements. its not a bad thing but its just best you understand that AoC seems to not be in your perfered genere of game and hence your comment to some degree is slightly missing the point because your talking about balancing the game around something entirely different. like its already too far down a real MMORPG route to really divert from that core unless you wanna wait for another 7 years to get back to the alpha stage because its base level is built around a massively multplayer online genre first and foremost with combat especially being designed for group combat and VERY specialized roels meant to play entirely different parts. like the idea i mentinoed about how i feel fighter and rouge should work would probably suit your action combat fancy but it wouldnt be a cakewalk since there would be a heavy emphasis on being very vulnerable and weak when it comes to taking dmg with a heavy need to monitor aggro as well as use your movement to avoid the aoes all together rather than avoid attacks with perhaps the dodges could have i frames in pvp so as to stop players from being to squishy in the face of other players not forced to attack the tanks OR they could steal an idea from that show i mentioned with tanks having a pvp focused taunt that doesnt necesarily force players to attack them by making it impossible to attack other players but just punishes any player who does try to attack your teammates with a massive dmg proc thats unavoidable if ya do with a REAAALLLLY long cooldown to match its long duration and make sure that the fight needs to drag out for a LONG while before you can recast it.

Solvryn

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Solvryn wrote: »

I get your point, but also understand that I prefer a high skill ceiling. I get that some people would not be able to play it, but there are many of us in the Ashes community who would not have a problem with that level of gameplay.

thats the thing. like i said, eso IS NOT anywhere close to balanced how a real mmorpg would be seen as the massively multiplayer means ALL aspects are heavily based on multiplayer including even pvp with the thing that i will say once more is that the amount of shit that a support or even just a ranged dps needs to consider especially since bows should require arrows but be either more powerful than ranged magic or much faster and more consistant and easy to use. like the point im trying to make that its the base mechanics of the class also working together with your groups WILDLY different mechanics and roles they play with what you are advocating for is a singleplayer focused action combat game like BDO or ESO. like sure they are fun games but if thats what you want than you might just actually not be into mmorpgs but instead like i said at best, open world multiplayer rpgs or in reality, open world rpgs with multiplayer elements. its not a bad thing but its just best you understand that AoC seems to not be in your perfered genere of game and hence your comment to some degree is slightly missing the point because your talking about balancing the game around something entirely different. like its already too far down a real MMORPG route to really divert from that core unless you wanna wait for another 7 years to get back to the alpha stage because its base level is built around a massively multplayer online genre first and foremost with combat especially being designed for group combat and VERY specialized roels meant to play entirely different parts. like the idea i mentinoed about how i feel fighter and rouge should work would probably suit your action combat fancy but it wouldnt be a cakewalk since there would be a heavy emphasis on being very vulnerable and weak when it comes to taking dmg with a heavy need to monitor aggro as well as use your movement to avoid the aoes all together rather than avoid attacks with perhaps the dodges could have i frames in pvp so as to stop players from being to squishy in the face of other players not forced to attack the tanks OR they could steal an idea from that show i mentioned with tanks having a pvp focused taunt that doesnt necesarily force players to attack them by making it impossible to attack other players but just punishes any player who does try to attack your teammates with a massive dmg proc thats unavoidable if ya do with a REAAALLLLY long cooldown to match its long duration and make sure that the fight needs to drag out for a LONG while before you can recast it.

I’m not sure why you think advocating for a high skill ceiling is for single player mmorpgs, because it’s not true.

You work together whether it be tab or action, it doesn’t matter if it’s WoW or Darkfall. Your view on balance indicates to me you haven’t played that many action MMOs. I’ve played the spectrum.

We are talking about a hybrid in Ashes, so it needs to incorporate the best of both worlds. It needs to work like a hybrid.

Rookk

Solvryn wrote: »

I’m not sure why you think advocating for a high skill ceiling is for single player mmorpgs, because it’s not true.

You work together whether it be tab or action, it doesn’t matter if it’s WoW or Darkfall. Your view on balance indicates to me you haven’t played that many action MMOs. I’ve played the spectrum.

We are talking about a hybrid in Ashes, so it needs to incorporate the best of both worlds. It needs to work like a hybrid.

no im saying a high skill ceiling on personal skill over teamwork, good gear and ability building, and strategy is what makes it a snigle player game. its the fact that YOU arent supposed to be the linchpin based 100% on massive levels of personal skill to be able to avoid attacks and pump out massive dmg but instead everyone is meant to work together in basically a dnd adventure since the mmorpg genre was based on dnd. theres a reason combat balanced around solo play makes a game no longer a mmorpg and its 100% that fact that if its difficulty is based on personal capability ENTIRELY like say bdo or eso than your gonna have a issue. thats the reason im trying to make clear the amount of shit that the supports will need to consider and why i will also point out that a good real mmorpg would have its bossses and even normal enemies all having unique mechanics that make it so even the dps and tanks need to be aware of the enmies they are going after lest they be wiped out by a mechanic they didnt know about. like dont get me wrong, i do ackowledge that some amount of action combat based skill is good for the melee fighters since that combat is basically entirely meant to be action orientated but thats the exception and even than like i have made clear, it shouldnt be the focus.

Noaani

Loading wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

I’m not sure why you think advocating for a high skill ceiling is for single player mmorpgs, because it’s not true.

You work together whether it be tab or action, it doesn’t matter if it’s WoW or Darkfall. Your view on balance indicates to me you haven’t played that many action MMOs. I’ve played the spectrum.

We are talking about a hybrid in Ashes, so it needs to incorporate the best of both worlds. It needs to work like a hybrid.

no im saying a high skill ceiling on personal skill over teamwork, good gear and ability building, and strategy is what makes it a snigle player game. its the fact that YOU arent supposed to be the linchpin based 100% on massive levels of personal skill to be able to avoid attacks and pump out massive dmg but instead everyone is meant to work together in basically a dnd adventure since the mmorpg genre was based on dnd. theres a reason combat balanced around solo play makes a game no longer a mmorpg and its 100% that fact that if its difficulty is based on personal capability ENTIRELY like say bdo or eso than your gonna have a issue. thats the reason im trying to make clear the amount of shit that the supports will need to consider and why i will also point out that a good real mmorpg would have its bossses and even normal enemies all having unique mechanics that make it so even the dps and tanks need to be aware of the enmies they are going after lest they be wiped out by a mechanic they didnt know about. like dont get me wrong, i do ackowledge that some amount of action combat based skill is good for the melee fighters since that combat is basically entirely meant to be action orientated but thats the exception and even than like i have made clear, it shouldnt be the focus.

And what about games where you need top end gear, you need that personal skill, but you also need that teamwork and strategy?

Solvryn

Noaani wrote: »

Loading wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

I’m not sure why you think advocating for a high skill ceiling is for single player mmorpgs, because it’s not true.

You work together whether it be tab or action, it doesn’t matter if it’s WoW or Darkfall. Your view on balance indicates to me you haven’t played that many action MMOs. I’ve played the spectrum.

We are talking about a hybrid in Ashes, so it needs to incorporate the best of both worlds. It needs to work like a hybrid.

no im saying a high skill ceiling on personal skill over teamwork, good gear and ability building, and strategy is what makes it a snigle player game. its the fact that YOU arent supposed to be the linchpin based 100% on massive levels of personal skill to be able to avoid attacks and pump out massive dmg but instead everyone is meant to work together in basically a dnd adventure since the mmorpg genre was based on dnd. theres a reason combat balanced around solo play makes a game no longer a mmorpg and its 100% that fact that if its difficulty is based on personal capability ENTIRELY like say bdo or eso than your gonna have a issue. thats the reason im trying to make clear the amount of shit that the supports will need to consider and why i will also point out that a good real mmorpg would have its bossses and even normal enemies all having unique mechanics that make it so even the dps and tanks need to be aware of the enmies they are going after lest they be wiped out by a mechanic they didnt know about. like dont get me wrong, i do ackowledge that some amount of action combat based skill is good for the melee fighters since that combat is basically entirely meant to be action orientated but thats the exception and even than like i have made clear, it shouldnt be the focus.

And what about games where you need top end gear, you need that personal skill, but you also need that teamwork and strategy?

Thanks @Noaani for completing my thoughts exactly.

Rookk

Noaani wrote: »

Loading wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

I’m not sure why you think advocating for a high skill ceiling is for single player mmorpgs, because it’s not true.

You work together whether it be tab or action, it doesn’t matter if it’s WoW or Darkfall. Your view on balance indicates to me you haven’t played that many action MMOs. I’ve played the spectrum.

We are talking about a hybrid in Ashes, so it needs to incorporate the best of both worlds. It needs to work like a hybrid.

no im saying a high skill ceiling on personal skill over teamwork, good gear and ability building, and strategy is what makes it a snigle player game. its the fact that YOU arent supposed to be the linchpin based 100% on massive levels of personal skill to be able to avoid attacks and pump out massive dmg but instead everyone is meant to work together in basically a dnd adventure since the mmorpg genre was based on dnd. theres a reason combat balanced around solo play makes a game no longer a mmorpg and its 100% that fact that if its difficulty is based on personal capability ENTIRELY like say bdo or eso than your gonna have a issue. thats the reason im trying to make clear the amount of shit that the supports will need to consider and why i will also point out that a good real mmorpg would have its bossses and even normal enemies all having unique mechanics that make it so even the dps and tanks need to be aware of the enmies they are going after lest they be wiped out by a mechanic they didnt know about. like dont get me wrong, i do ackowledge that some amount of action combat based skill is good for the melee fighters since that combat is basically entirely meant to be action orientated but thats the exception and even than like i have made clear, it shouldnt be the focus.

And what about games where you need top end gear, you need that personal skill, but you also need that teamwork and strategy?

ok i dont get what you mean there? your just asking the question that as best i can tell with how you worded it basically is just " and what about games that are in different genres to ashes? hmmm?" like my point was that in games that emphasis teamwork and strategy, those are SUPPOSED to be the key things and that gear and personal skill are more so after thoughts as the real challenge is working together as a team when one miss step can bring the whole team down. like you guys still have to explain why ashes is REALLY a open world single player rpg game with multiplayer elements or at best a open world multiplayer rpg instead of a mmorpg because its meant to be like those oldschool mmorpgs like old school WoW with a HEAVY focus on teamwork needing to be something you have to do basically anything.

Rookk

like srly maybe explain why you think it should have its literal core of how all its gameplay has been built, ripped out and replaced with virtually a different game.

Rookk

Solvryn wrote: »

Loading wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

I get your point, but also understand that I prefer a high skill ceiling. I get that some people would not be able to play it, but there are many of us in the Ashes community who would not have a problem with that level of gameplay.

thats the thing. like i said, eso IS NOT anywhere close to balanced how a real mmorpg would be seen as the massively multiplayer means ALL aspects are heavily based on multiplayer including even pvp with the thing that i will say once more is that the amount of shit that a support or even just a ranged dps needs to consider especially since bows should require arrows but be either more powerful than ranged magic or much faster and more consistant and easy to use. like the point im trying to make that its the base mechanics of the class also working together with your groups WILDLY different mechanics and roles they play with what you are advocating for is a singleplayer focused action combat game like BDO or ESO. like sure they are fun games but if thats what you want than you might just actually not be into mmorpgs but instead like i said at best, open world multiplayer rpgs or in reality, open world rpgs with multiplayer elements. its not a bad thing but its just best you understand that AoC seems to not be in your perfered genere of game and hence your comment to some degree is slightly missing the point because your talking about balancing the game around something entirely different. like its already too far down a real MMORPG route to really divert from that core unless you wanna wait for another 7 years to get back to the alpha stage because its base level is built around a massively multplayer online genre first and foremost with combat especially being designed for group combat and VERY specialized roels meant to play entirely different parts. like the idea i mentinoed about how i feel fighter and rouge should work would probably suit your action combat fancy but it wouldnt be a cakewalk since there would be a heavy emphasis on being very vulnerable and weak when it comes to taking dmg with a heavy need to monitor aggro as well as use your movement to avoid the aoes all together rather than avoid attacks with perhaps the dodges could have i frames in pvp so as to stop players from being to squishy in the face of other players not forced to attack the tanks OR they could steal an idea from that show i mentioned with tanks having a pvp focused taunt that doesnt necesarily force players to attack them by making it impossible to attack other players but just punishes any player who does try to attack your teammates with a massive dmg proc thats unavoidable if ya do with a REAAALLLLY long cooldown to match its long duration and make sure that the fight needs to drag out for a LONG while before you can recast it.

I’m not sure why you think advocating for a high skill ceiling is for single player mmorpgs, because it’s not true.

You work together whether it be tab or action, it doesn’t matter if it’s WoW or Darkfall. Your view on balance indicates to me you haven’t played that many action MMOs. I’ve played the spectrum.

We are talking about a hybrid in Ashes, so it needs to incorporate the best of both worlds. It needs to work like a hybrid.

my guy the reaspon is simple. high skill ceilings or rather high personal skill ceilings make it so teamwork becomes extermely difficult and most players will just need to rely on their own skill rather than the team. like for example, BDO and ESO both dont really have teammates you fight alongside and work with but rather its more like everyone is a walking god because the personal skill ceiling is to the max that EVERYONE needs to meet a certain dps level and EVERYONE needs to be a tank who can survive the bosses attacks and EVERYONE needs to also have a AT LEAST certain large amount of personal healing meaing more 'teammates' in those games is more so for extra dps and bodies to throw at the boss and not because you need to work as an actual team. a game with heavy restrictions that mean that strategy and teamwork is the true skill ceiling find that they can have everyone easily able to play without any issues of personal skill in terms of what i think your not getting being skill to do action tasks and just play the game at a very high level with instead, everyone hits that level easy but because everyones on that playing field, it means that those who actually know how to work as a team to get the most out of what their group can do will demolish other teams.

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