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[Feedback Request] Cyclops Combat Preview Shown in May Livestream

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  • Lark WyllLark Wyll Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Hello,

    How do you feel about the combat preview featuring the Cyclops? Do you like the mechanics, multi-group gameplay, and boss phases?
    A: Looks good. The range of attacks for his slams wasn't entirely straight forward, but its nice seeing boss fights go a different direction than large RED incoming damage zones telling us to vacate the area or stay at our own peril.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cyclops Combat Preview?
    A: Melee users were having a much harder time using their kits vs the boss. This boss runs around a lot. The ranged advantage looks very strong. I'm concerned ranged players have too much range, and melee players not enough ways to navigate fights to get into striking range to maintain up-time on their attacks. It looked like melee did very little in comparison to ranged roles.

    Will ranged roles be superior for DPS/support, everything except tank for pve? Even the distribution between ranged/mage/healers/ and melee users in the video was very slanted towards ranged roles.
    u3usdraa7gs1.png

  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    It might have been a level 30 boss but the devs were level 15 and only half a raid. It was tank and spank at best and also less than the twins even though the cyclops had a huge tree to knock people around with.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    NiKr wrote: »
    Diamaht wrote: »
    For a lvl 30ish, open world boss I thought the scaling was perfect. The video you showed has far too many people for an open world fast and fun pug style boss.
    Iirc Steven said that this is a raid boss and they could do it with 2 parties cause they're devs and know the mechanics. A raid in Ashes is 40 people.

    But even outside of that. It's like I said, if this is in fact just a normal boi who's meant to be killed every day - yeah, it was kinda perfect. Just a cute backdrop for the potential pvp around him. But then we come to Azherae's question: why show this boss instead of anyone with better mechanics or a harder fight. Alpha1 already had a better boss in the Twins. People were tossed around, the ground had hazards, 2 bosses needed to be controlled.

    In other words, it'd be great if Intrepid could clear up what this boss is meant to represent: one of hundreds of basic open world bosses or one of the more unique bosses with cool drops.

    I could have heard it wrong, but I'm pretty sure during the stream he said 16 to 32.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Diamaht wrote: »
    I could have heard it wrong, but I'm pretty sure during the stream he said 16 to 32.
    Gonna rewatch the showcase in a few hours, so will double check.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Diamaht wrote: »
    I could have heard it wrong, but I'm pretty sure during the stream he said 16 to 32.
    Gonna rewatch the showcase in a few hours, so will double check.

    That is indeed what was said.

    So for those who don't have context but want to note anything.

    Levels 22-35 (presumably lower levels means you need more people since the boss is basically two back to back DPS checks) and 16-32 people.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • FantmxFantmx Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I have to disagree with that initial comparison. That is a very static boss with far fewer players. The one shown had all sorts to charges, changes to hate lists, adds that you had to kill to stop self healing. It appears to have been a drastically different encounter.

    When you throw in open world PvP this looks like it could be quite a difficult encounter for that level of players.

    I have never played L2 beyond a few levels, are these raids instanced? Because I do not see any PvP occurring.

    I love the idea of different levels of open world dungeons and bosses. One of the things that EQ did right that few other mmorpgs replicated was raid difficulty encounters across nearly all levels starting with places like Crushbone and Castle Mistmoore.

    What I don't love is the threat of PvP at a difficult point in an encounter :)
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Fantmx wrote: »
    I have to disagree with that initial comparison. That is a very static boss with far fewer players. The one shown had all sorts to charges, changes to hate lists, adds that you had to kill to stop self healing. It appears to have been a drastically different encounter.
    Was it mechanically for players though? All they needed to do was just dps. And clearics would heal a bit after a boss ability here and there. Yes, boss had a few additional mechanics (that I mentioned), but it didn't change anything on player side.
    Fantmx wrote: »
    I have never played L2 beyond a few levels, are these raids instanced? Because I do not see any PvP occurring.
    This was just the video I could find of this boss, cause L2's too old to have a ton of different videos of older content.

    This boss is required for a very important quest, so you'd have a ton of pvp on it. Also, the players in that video are at the top of their progression and are the best players in their class on their server (their weapons are unique and serve as an indicator), so to them this boss is trivial. For a progress-appropriate party it's a bit harder and sometimes you can even die, because you don't have enough dps and the boss just cancels your party's buffs and you're fucked.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Fantmx wrote: »
    I have to disagree with that initial comparison. That is a very static boss with far fewer players. The one shown had all sorts to charges, changes to hate lists, adds that you had to kill to stop self healing. It appears to have been a drastically different encounter.

    When you throw in open world PvP this looks like it could be quite a difficult encounter for that level of players.

    I have never played L2 beyond a few levels, are these raids instanced? Because I do not see any PvP occurring.

    I love the idea of different levels of open world dungeons and bosses. One of the things that EQ did right that few other mmorpgs replicated was raid difficulty encounters across nearly all levels starting with places like Crushbone and Castle Mistmoore.

    What I don't love is the threat of PvP at a difficult point in an encounter :)

    Forgive my vitriol but isn't that the point? What's the real difference here?

    Making more players do the same simplistic stuff isn't what passes for good design these days, is it?

    The entire reason I can't have a reaction to this is that you could give me this exact thing as a single, 6-8 man enemy and it'd be largely the same. It doesn't leverage basically any of the things that make a Raid boss 'Raid Tier', which is fine if it is supposed to be super simple, but then it's super simple.

    I know maybe we're at the point where 'this game is not for me', but are my group and I really so far removed from MMO gameplay that we just can't grasp at all what is important to people anymore? This was so relatively lame that I don't know where to even start, so I don't know what you're seeing and should probably rewatch it too, but like, couldn't you put all those things on just basic mobs? Is the MMO community so changed that they can't see that this is just an inflated Alpha-1 Troll with a healing mechanic that's basically a DPS check?
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 2023
    People's perception of what Open World Bosses, Dungeons and Raids feel like will change by 100% when they actually play it

    Boss mechanics cant be crazy hard or complex for a lvl 30 world boss in an MMO with with open world PVP otherwise it will just be unplayable especially in lower levels where threat mechanics and healing is limited.

    Contesting content in PvP during a fight like this will be Extremely hard especially because these are scarce resources that EVERYONE will desire....

    Even if this boss had brain dead AI, the difficulty can be next to impossible if you are facing a group better at PvP

    The mechanics and complexity shown for mid game are solid, and the PvP factor would make this encounter very very interesting
    img]
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  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited June 2023
    How do you feel about the combat preview featuring the Cyclops? Do you like the mechanics, multi-group gameplay, and boss phases?

    Overall I'd say it's a solid 8/10, it was good and exceeded my expectations. I think the complexity and mechanics were Perfect for a mid-game world boss taking PvP in consideration, too bad the team did not mention PvP since this is one of the main aspects, in the future I recommend showcasing PvX content as PvX and not PvE only because it sends the wrong message if all people see is PvE.

    I did not like the TTK shown I think it was way too low, the boss was killed in 6 minutes by 15 players, this is unacceptable - even if they know the mechanics we had 1 dev that disconnected and most were standing still taking damage and not dogging attacks, if they played this perfectly they could have killed this boss in under 5 minutes with zero deaths. Not good. They should take at least 15 minutes to kill this boss.

    This encounter should be designed for 20 minutes minimum for a 40 man raid, maybe more, because that would make it if PvP is involved, we can get a decent hour plus fight, this is a very strong opinion I and multiple people within my community share - Long TTK both for PvE and PvP (30s to 60s to kill players)

    Aggro mechanics were Perfect. Love it. Tank kept constant aggro and from time to time the boss went after someone else but the tank could still bring him back, well done with this.


    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cyclops Combat Preview?

    Concerned about the low TTK (not only for the cyclops but also player vs player TTK) - and also from a balancing perspective Please, Please do not create a "ranged" meta. Encounters like this need to take ranged classes into consideration both for PvP and PvE, it is extremely unbalanced the way rangers and mages can stand still watching netflix spamming skills and attacks and melee need to give everything trying to survive, mobs and bosses need mechanics and attacks that target ranged classes and in PvP melee needs ENOUGH gap closers and CCs

    I can't imagine how unbalanced would be to test this content right now as a melee fighter or tank doing this content barely making it alive when an enemy mage or ranger shows up to contest this in PVP with all their blinks, mobility and CCs against basically no CC shown for the fighter and extremely limited gap closers and CC shown for the tank.

    I'd like to add that I really enjoyed the new nameplates, looks much better, I'd be happy with this for launch, amazing job doing the multiple POV video, VFX in general are amazing, perfectly balance with the spell effects, camera shakes and visuals this is 100% spot on. Target of Target would be nice - and showcasing Action camera with players moving around more for a better understanding of the Hybrid system would be much appreciated, we have only seen showcases being played with tab target camera for a while now.

    img]
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  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Liniker wrote: »
    The mechanics and complexity shown for mid game are solid, and the PvP factor would make this encounter very very interesting
    Yeah, as I said, the boss would be fine if it's meant to be background for pvp, but at that point I'd prefer if Intrepid told us as much.

    So this might be the biggest point of feedback for future raid/pve showcases. State clearly what the thing being shown is supposed to be or at least planned to be. Maybe I missed it during the stream, but I feel like I didn't get an indication of whether this boss was supposed to be super simple or whether it's meant to be challenging.

    Right now, even with pvp, this boss would obviously not represent the kind of content that "only <10% of people would be able to clear". So I'd assume that we'll see a much more complex and difficulty boss later on. And if that's the case - I believe it should be stated as so or at least be a part of the preface that Steven loves to do.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 2023
    Azherae wrote: »
    Fantmx wrote: »
    I have to disagree with that initial comparison. That is a very static boss with far fewer players. The one shown had all sorts to charges, changes to hate lists, adds that you had to kill to stop self healing. It appears to have been a drastically different encounter.

    When you throw in open world PvP this looks like it could be quite a difficult encounter for that level of players.

    I have never played L2 beyond a few levels, are these raids instanced? Because I do not see any PvP occurring.

    I love the idea of different levels of open world dungeons and bosses. One of the things that EQ did right that few other mmorpgs replicated was raid difficulty encounters across nearly all levels starting with places like Crushbone and Castle Mistmoore.

    What I don't love is the threat of PvP at a difficult point in an encounter :)

    Forgive my vitriol but isn't that the point? What's the real difference here?

    Making more players do the same simplistic stuff isn't what passes for good design these days, is it?

    The entire reason I can't have a reaction to this is that you could give me this exact thing as a single, 6-8 man enemy and it'd be largely the same. It doesn't leverage basically any of the things that make a Raid boss 'Raid Tier', which is fine if it is supposed to be super simple, but then it's super simple.

    I know maybe we're at the point where 'this game is not for me', but are my group and I really so far removed from MMO gameplay that we just can't grasp at all what is important to people anymore? This was so relatively lame that I don't know where to even start, so I don't know what you're seeing and should probably rewatch it too, but like, couldn't you put all those things on just basic mobs? Is the MMO community so changed that they can't see that this is just an inflated Alpha-1 Troll with a healing mechanic that's basically a DPS check?

    https://youtu.be/TnccM1wV3Eg?t=572
    They said multiple times that this is an introductory raid people will encounter at lower levels(timestamp ~9:32). I get that people might have wanted something more advanced and understand the frustration but also feel like they did a good job explaining the expectations for this fight.
    smallerLizard.jpg
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    edited May 2023
    Azherae wrote: »
    Fantmx wrote: »
    I have to disagree with that initial comparison. That is a very static boss with far fewer players. The one shown had all sorts to charges, changes to hate lists, adds that you had to kill to stop self healing. It appears to have been a drastically different encounter.

    When you throw in open world PvP this looks like it could be quite a difficult encounter for that level of players.

    I have never played L2 beyond a few levels, are these raids instanced? Because I do not see any PvP occurring.

    I love the idea of different levels of open world dungeons and bosses. One of the things that EQ did right that few other mmorpgs replicated was raid difficulty encounters across nearly all levels starting with places like Crushbone and Castle Mistmoore.

    What I don't love is the threat of PvP at a difficult point in an encounter :)

    Forgive my vitriol but isn't that the point? What's the real difference here?

    Making more players do the same simplistic stuff isn't what passes for good design these days, is it?

    The entire reason I can't have a reaction to this is that you could give me this exact thing as a single, 6-8 man enemy and it'd be largely the same. It doesn't leverage basically any of the things that make a Raid boss 'Raid Tier', which is fine if it is supposed to be super simple, but then it's super simple.

    I know maybe we're at the point where 'this game is not for me', but are my group and I really so far removed from MMO gameplay that we just can't grasp at all what is important to people anymore? This was so relatively lame that I don't know where to even start, so I don't know what you're seeing and should probably rewatch it too, but like, couldn't you put all those things on just basic mobs? Is the MMO community so changed that they can't see that this is just an inflated Alpha-1 Troll with a healing mechanic that's basically a DPS check?

    I don't disagree with what you mean, but I would say this isn't meant to be raid tier content in the way that you mean. It's something that gets folks working together and engaging with the open world as a group instead of just solo, like you see in most mmos now.

    It's a form of glue for the player base. They can get together, tackle some content then go their separate ways. Having things like this constantly around that encourage, and reward interaction between players is great way to get people out of their solo mentality, and you can teach them how to fill a group role while you are at it. I'm not sure you want extreme difficulty for that. It's not trying to perform the same job as a classic raid boss as far as I can tell.

    If you make all the bosses savage or extreme difficulty in the open world you are guaranteeing that they won't interact with it. It's too much work. You would be punishing group formation instead of rewarding it. Leave the extreme difficulty to specific, designated bosses and dungeons. You can have some of the open world bosses that need coordinated 64 groups but most shouldn't be that way IMO.

    Edit: As for pvp, yeah the threat should always be there.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Liniker wrote: »
    The mechanics and complexity shown for mid game are solid, and the PvP factor would make this encounter very very interesting
    Yeah, as I said, the boss would be fine if it's meant to be background for pvp, but at that point I'd prefer if Intrepid told us as much.

    So this might be the biggest point of feedback for future raid/pve showcases. State clearly what the thing being shown is supposed to be or at least planned to be. Maybe I missed it during the stream, but I feel like I didn't get an indication of whether this boss was supposed to be super simple or whether it's meant to be challenging.

    Right now, even with pvp, this boss would obviously not represent the kind of content that "only <10% of people would be able to clear". So I'd assume that we'll see a much more complex and difficulty boss later on. And if that's the case - I believe it should be stated as so or at least be a part of the preface that Steven loves to do.

    That wouldn't have been the point though. This isn't even...

    Ugh I don't even know where to start because everything about the entire discussion is so wrong...

    Like... There are so many 'concept checks' this would have had to pass to get onto a stream, for me. But to start with the simplest one, and to keep it out of the feedback thread since that seems to be going well for Intrepid...

    If you give me a 'raid boss' where I need 32 players...

    And the job of all the Mages is to DPS with their wands and lightning.
    And the job of the two Tanks (assuming we even have two) is to stand there.
    And the job of the 4 Bards is to buff their party with basically the same buffs.
    And the job of the 4 Clerics is to heal the AoE damage and keep the Tanks up...

    You gave me an inflated 8 man fight.

    You didn't use the 'Raid Boss' aspects at all. You didn't do any of the absolute basic design (that fits perfectly into PvX games mind you) that would make it a group challenge. You do have to make hard mechanics, because if you don't, what was your excuse for not making it just an 8 man fight at that point? Is it just another feel-good participation open-world spectacle?

    Or a PvP objective that is meant to be minimally interactive like so many other games of this type? You could have done that as 8-man too. It'd be more fun then!

    What even IS this?
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • JumbolayaJumbolaya Member
    edited May 2023
    How do you feel about the combat preview featuring the Cyclops? Do you like the mechanics, multi-group gameplay, and boss phases?
    The boss mechanics and backstory are really cool. I think the boss phases flowed well and tying his abilities/phases to the tree is a great idea. That being said, here is some specific feedback about the cyclops:
    • The cyclops seems to slide as he walks, making him feel somewhat weightless. It is quite immersion breaking to me.
    • Aside from the trees falling over, there isn't much that shows that he walked through a specific area. Having large footprints someone could follow (which Steven mentioned will be added), trampled bushes and monsters would be cool.
    • Many of the sound effects are great but some soundfar off/quiet. This could have just been the game sound being quiet compared to the voice-over, but hearing the tree slams and having my sub shake would inspire awe and terror.
    • The mechanics are thematically and visually cool but there is very little interaction with the player. Most of these were just people soaking the damage and relying on the healer to compensate. Giving players options to brace/jump shockwaves, dodge cone-shaped slam attacks, avoid waves of spores/roots is important for an engaging experience. Giving proper visual/audible cues ahead of these will let them predict what they need to do. Healing should be balanced based on players dealing with these mechanics or facing the consequences (death or an angry healer). That being said, it is a level 30 boss and so should not be too punishing but rather a tool to educate for more difficult bosses at higher level.
    • The wolves mechanic seemed somewhat irrelevant. Is it intended to have another tank pick these up? Or to DPS them down quickly? They just seemed to run around and bite random people but not much else.
    • It would have been nice to see the tank's and melee DPS perspective fighting such a large raid boss. Seeing how the blocking mechanic interacts with certain moves would have been neat. I love that you guys jumped to different people, showcasing multiple roles/classes.
    • There wasn't really any indicator that the cyclops had loot. I like the loot window once it did show but maybe it could be fancied up a bit for boss level creatures? Getting the loot is half the excitement, thus I think there should be some visual to match that level of excitement.
    • I didn't notice until he was dead, but the eyeball looks too... clean?
    • Maybe I'm seeing things, but some of the character models/armor of some players that are standing there just prior to the pull seem low quality? For example, at 11:30 in the video, the person in the back middle with the grey looks like he is from Runescape :lol:

    What are your favorite open-world raid bosses, or world bosses? Please provide examples when applicable.
    I'm drawing a blank right now but will edit later after I've given it some thought. In general, being part of a "massive" group taking on a creature that feels "massive" is what appeals about open world bosses to me. However, that needs to be tempered so that it is not a zergfest where there are so many people that you can't see the boss/mechanics.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cyclops Combat Preview?
    I love the animation quality, the concept of the mechanics, and how you are making the boss feel "huge". It seems like a lot of care was put into making this and it shows.

    In general, the things that are paramount that a game gets right are fluidity of movement and combat. So, with that in mind, here are my top concerns:
    • Motion of character models seems stiff. The bottom half and top half of the character models do not carry the same energy when running. It also feels like running forward is like a fast walk rather than a run.
    • The players all seemed very static and mostly spamming one button. There was very little moving out of the way, dodging, jumping, or any other movement. Part of this goes back to tying mechanics with player interaction as noted above, but overall there was very little movement that would be expected per combat
    • Maybe this is just because it is level 30, but the number of abilities on some player's bars was slim, especially the cleric. Having a variety of abilities and cool downs is something I really enjoy.
    • Melee combatants look like they may be severely hindered on this boss. Will all large bosses be that way or am I misreading things? We did not see a perspective from melee, so it is hard to tell.
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    To help guide this conversation, here are a few thought starters you can choose from:
    • How do you feel about the combat preview featuring the Cyclops? Do you like the mechanics, multi-group gameplay, and boss phases?

    It’s a great baseline, so heres what I think needs improved to start,

    We definitely need the AI on those wolves, they’re boss wolves so they should behave grades above normal mobs. They’re definitely detached from the overall encounter and need to be more involved.

    The best parts of the fight was the treemaultotem exploding, but the rage encounter felt like his damage was easily avoidable.

    I think really that’s my largest critique, the mechanics are almost too easy to avoid even if you were getting contested.
    • What are your favorite open-world raid bosses, or world bosses? Please provide examples when applicable.

    BAMS in tera were fun.
    There’s a slug dude in ESO in Weleken Cove that’s interesting. He was able to kill people when there was around 20, but ESOs content isn’t designed for the Ashes scope.
    The AA dragons and sea monsters were fun.
    I don’t have any good memory of a WoW boss that stands out minus the Sha of Anger when he launched.

    • Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cyclops Combat Preview?

    Hell yeah I’m excited I can 1h melee with a focus in the off hand.

    And I am greatly concerned for the Summoner, just because of the AI as it stands.

    Also I am very happy that Steven has pretty much iterated that Alpha will be the big combat passes, that is always a good thing.

    Now wheres Tulnar?
  • AniionAniion Member
    edited May 2023
    As a low-level World Boss, who is easily accessible, in a wide-open space, and doesn't have a large barrier to entry, the mechanics and actions of the boss were good. I think a lot of people don't realize that if the boss hit that enrage at 10k HP while that raid group was fighting with another, it would have most likely been a full wipe (with how low everyones HP got), and it probably would have reset.

    Anyways, a roaming WB in an empty, above-world area without many natural roadbocks, or other contested resources, being fairly straightforward is good. I imagine OWWB that are in much more highly contested areas, more popular farming spots, then the boss would most likely be more difficult to take down.

    Pros:
    • Heal check skill
    • Tank check skill
    • DPS check enrage

    (All of the above at a scale that's not overly difficult for players with okay gear/at an appropriate level)
    • Some ranged-dps focused abilities
    • Spectral wolves targetting ranged casters
    • Mechanics that are very intuitive to understand (don't need to read a guide in order to tackle this for the first time, attentitive/observant players will quickly figure out what to do, while very poor/unobservant players will have only a slightly/moderately more difficult time)
    • Indiscriminate AoE targetting
    • Melee attacks very telegraphed

    Cons:
    • Cone breath attack very difficult to properly see (spell telegraphs not existing in AoC is fine, but when an AoE effect is clipping into the ground and makes it impossible to determine the width, that really makes the "it'll break immersion" reason not applicable)
    • Melee attackers look like they're at a mild disadvantage in the fight (which is okay if there are WB where ranged attackers are at a mild disadvantage. Not okay if Melee is always disadvantaged)
    • Idle animations could definitely be improved
    • No target-of-target makes these fights much harder to follow


    Feedback:
    Mechanics were decent, phases were good, unique aspects were also good. The ranged-checks were good to see, as well as the heal checks.

    What I would like to see in World Boss spawns in the future is incorporating more PvE around the WB. With a tree/forest/herbalism focused World Boss, it would be amazing if either the spawn, the fight, or the death triggered some rare/temporary/unique gatherables around the area. Even just a glow effect + increased drop rate/rare drop rate would be fine. This would result in these PvP gatherings also being a PvE gathering, and players who are solo, just in the area, or maybe too low-level to contest still have a reason to be there. It also provides alternative paths to progression. I would highly discourage rare gathering/crafting material be only dropped from the World Boss, but having the World Boss have a mich higher chance of dropping it, but the surrounding area have a smaller but more farmable chance at dropping that rare gatherable is much more universal, and still fits the "risk vs reward" & PvX mentality. Sure, the "goal" scenario is competing, similarly leveled/geared raid groups fighting over a boss, and the winner comes out victorious for their preparation etc., but having multiple smaller groups/individuals ALSO have a reason to attend a World Boss makes these fights much more enjoyable. Do you as a Logging focused player all alone want to risk getting near a heavily PvP'd area to cut down some trees that were buffed temporarily, knowing that someone might decide to kill you for your loot?

    We've seen Story Arcs change the world to spawn unique gatherables, as well as seasonal changes to gatherables, which are all great. What I'm worried about is the "joining of PvP and PvE together" that Steven mentions only taking the form of "kill other people to take control of a PvE resource". I think that should be the highest form of risk vs reward, and provide the best drop rates for unique PvE/crafting/gathering rewards. But there hasn't been any discussion around the full spectrum of risk vs reward. A lot of players idea of a fun Artisan gameloop is fishing/logging/gathering for hours and hours at a time. The economy side of things (caravan PvP) is well-established risk vs reward, and follows the full-scale of the spectrum. I can imagine the super high-tier gatherables are also very contested (in high-leveled areas). But World Bosses provide a unique experience to PvP and PvEers, with it's world interactions and variable spawn-times, and having both Master Gatherers running over, as well as entire PvP Raid Groups, each having their own goals, is really fun. And it also helps ease the pressure Gatherers have if a World Boss drops something they need, knowing they have multiple paths to achieving it, ones they can do themselves (albeit at a lower drop rate).

    Having an entire boss/area/fight that you obviously spent a lot of time/care on only be "successfully" contested by a single party at a time feels very wasteful. If I can go there individually, dodge all the spells, pop my pots/defensive skills, cut down a few trees, and run away, I also "experienced" the fight successfully without the need to have a large group of 16-40 around me. That is much more easily reproducible gameloop for the casual player, and having casual players voluntarily navigate to PvP areas, whether in a small group, or all alone, helps make the server feel much more alive.
  • He destroys environment however environment doesn't destroy you. Missed opportunity.

    If the NPC can destroy environment but the destruction of the environment doesn't have any actual effect on you then it feels empty, meaningless and like paper.

    I expect that when he charges through one of those big rocks in his arena the rock would crumble into smaller pieces which get launched as an AoE attack from the shear force of his charge. That way if he charges through a rock and through you the rock's damage + his charge would be enough to kill you.

    Basically what I am saying is that if these big bosses destroy environment but the whole thing is left just as an aesthetic then big part of the immersion is instantly gone.
  • AniionAniion Member
    edited June 2023
    Overload wrote: »
    Please, consider some kind of restrictions or penalties to prevent high level characters from interacting with the boss itself. For example, in Lineage 2 if a player 5 levels higher than the boss would attempt to hit it, the player would be instantly petrified an that debuff would last for a few minutes preventing the player from further attempts to meddle. If not prevented, it would just be farmed by high/max level characters and there would be no bosses for lower level characters.

    I'm not sure that's a good idea. I think that World Bosses should be delivered in a way that a max/high level character or group of characters shouldn't WANT to zerg and spawncamp a low-level boss. There should be much, much better use of their time than to wait around for the variable spawn-time, variable location low level World Boss, with low-levle mobs all around it. The experience should be paltry, the loot should be level-appropriate, and any "rare" drops shouldn't be so insanely rare that a max-level person would rather spend their time killing one low-level WB over farming max-level mobs for their rare drops.

    I don't think you should penalize players 10 levels higher who choose to make the unoptimal choice and either help low-level people kill the boss (mentor system), or just decided to cross the entire continent to another area and discover a new WB that they've already outleveled and decide to experience the fight. They're already penalized by "wasting" their time.

    Plus the fact that the transmog system exists, and that the World is so large, you might never even see some World Bosses across the world until you're 5-10 levels higher than it. Being unable to even experience that Boss anymore, or obtain a worse weapon/piece of gear is pretty unnecessary.
    Birthday wrote: »
    Basically what I am saying is that if these big bosses destroy environment but the whole thing is left just as an aesthetic then big part of the immersion is instantly gone.

    It's not just aesthetic, as those trees were previously farmable. Those rocks were previously cover from attacks/kiteable around. It's already having an impact on the world due to land-management resources. Instead of spending time to make these collisions that do damage, it's much easier to just make it a skill animation.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    Or a PvP objective that is meant to be minimally interactive like so many other games of this type? You could have done that as 8-man too. It'd be more fun then!

    What even IS this?
    I agree and I thought of another point of feedback related to this.

    Intrepid should try to show how they foresee the gameplay playing out. If this boss is meant to be contested in pvp - do that. Tune the boss a bit down, but instead of having 2 groups on the boss, have one on him and another one flagging against the farmers.

    This would not only show all the instanced kids how these fights would truly go, but the boss difficulty would be at least put in some context. Though yes, I agree that the current design definitely feels like more of a single party kind of deal. Which is kinda the reason why I used that first video as an example.

    The only reason why people in L2 would need more than one party to clear Golkonda was because they didn't have enough dps to outpace his cancel. In AoC's case it seems to be "to outpace his healing". Though if we consider that proper full parties would have a much better dps output - this boss would be a single party deal even if it was truly meant for several parties, just as you say.
  • RockettRockett Member
    edited June 2023
    How do you feel about the combat preview featuring the Cyclops? Do you like the mechanics, multi-group gameplay, and boss phases?

    The combat was ok, quite stationary from watching Steven play, I dont really know what to suggest just that if you make every attack moveable it will feel like ESO combat which people dont like, but if youre rooted during every skill then it will feel like Throne and liberty which people dont like. I dont think you can please everyone, hopefully with some more showcases we can refine it further with more suggestions. Maybe Superarmour, I-Frames and forward guard are needed on skills.

    The cyclops itself looked like it was much easier for ranged classes but difficult for melee, I liked the mechanics, the heal one was interesting, seeing the stomps and the boss changing agro made me feel worried for who the boss was targetting next (which is a good thing) the boss looks very intimidating.


    What are your favorite open-world raid bosses, or world bosses? Please provide examples when applicable.

    In recent boss fights in games I thought Ashava in diablo 4 was a lot of fun in the server slam they did for that game (we were 5 levels lower than the boss). There were Pools of poison that do tick damage, clearly telegraphed animations to show the boss was doing a 1 hit sweep attack. I think clear animations that dont get hidden by all the particle effects are very important. I think a balance between pretty effects and clear telegraphed attacks are important.


    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cyclops Combat Preview?


    I did not like how steven felt the need to mouse click on some of his skills/potions that he could not reach with his hand. The player shown Jason only uses 1-5 + shift 1-4 where as Steven is flexing his entire spell arsenal + potions but only uses stuff he can comfortably reach with his left hand.

    I liked how there wasnt red circles on the ground, but it wasnt super clear the exact range of some of the AoE range the slams and stomps the cyclops was doing. At 15:30 the boss gets super mad when you break it's weapon and slams the ground, Steven walks closer as the boss does it that doesnt really help, definitely clearly telegraphed to get out of there but not exactly sure its full range. The roots were nicely done though. I am a fan of not having red circles in PvE if the animations and effects are really good. For PvP though they will probably be required as both friend and foe can do the same AoE attacks.


  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Ok, I rewatched the boss fight and one of the devs did say that this was a simple boss that was meant to just showcase the interaction of big creatures with their environment.

    Now, while I do appreciate that this was stated in the showcase, I do think that it should've been reiterated in the preface. Cause, as much of a joke as they've become, it's way easier to pay attention to their details than the info that's being said while you're trying to parse several visual things on your screen.

    But this being a simple boss, I do still stick to my feedback of "show us the pvx, if you show us the easier pve". I think that'll be my main piece of feedback for this stream and for any future non-hardcore pve showcases.
  • LordPsychoLordPsycho Member
    edited May 2023
    How do you feel about the combat preview featuring the Cyclops? Do you like the mechanics, multi-group gameplay, and boss phases?

    Overall, I would say it is a good start. The backstory of Tumok and his character design seem very well thought out and executed. However, there are significant issues that I think are imperative to Ashes’ success, some of which are not exclusive to this boss:
    • Boss movement, particularly in the first and second phase seemed a little choppy and not very fluid. I know others have already mentioned this in the discussion, but the boss did seem to be sliding around. I think the weight and power of the boss would be conveyed much more effectively if he really dug into the ground when he stepped.
    • The mechanics of the boss seemed interesting in a vacuum. However, there are not really any mechanics that required the player to interact, i.e. move or change their behavior very much, with their surroundings. For example, when Tumok places his tree down, the player does not have to change their behavior other than to change targets from the boss to the tree trunk. I understand this is an early stage raid boss, however, it still needs to be fun, especially if this will be players’ introduction to raids in the game.
    • I think the three phases for this boss is fine, nothing crazy is necessary as this is an early stage raid boss. However, I am skeptical of the wolves which spawned towards the end of the fight. There did not seem to be enough for them to be an actual threat in the fight, in fact most people seemed to ignore them. Also, why wolves? What is their connection to this boss? It just seems kind of random.
    • Also, the finale of the fight was by far the most interesting part of the fight. The boss became much more mobile and aggressive, something I think the first two phases could use some more of. However, when the boss was killed, there was really no obvious indication that it had loot of any kind. I think it is very important for any boss, especially a raid boss, to be visually rewarding to the player when they defeat such boss. Me like shiny thing…
    • Lastly, I am slightly worried about the health meter of not just this boss, but almost every mob in the game. I believe I heard Steven say that this boss was created for raid groups of 8 players. It appeared to me that there were upwards of 20 players in the fight today and it also seemed that they almost failed the tree phase of the fight and allowed Tumok to regain health. Perhaps the boss’s health was scaled up for this many players, I’m not sure. Nevertheless, it is important for health bars to be reasonable. I shouldn’t have to spend 5 minutes on a low-tier mob that I am on par with level-wise. Of course, I am being hyperbolic, but I think this is important.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cyclops Combat Preview?

    Other than the issues I discussed above, my main concern with the Cyclops Preview are the visual effects of the fight. I haven’t really seen that many people discussing this, however, I think it is very important.
    First, I must say that I found the details of the Cyclops difficult to see at times. Perhaps this had to do with the time of day it was in game, but even if that is the case, I think more can be done on the lighting side to bring out Tumok’s amazing design. He looks great in the light, I want to see more!
    Second, and this is a worry that does not just apply to this boss, I am becoming more and more concerned about the visual effects of spells. While, I want to have the most powerful and crazy looking spell out there, I also want to see what I am doing. In this fight, at times it became difficult to see the boss because of all the spells that were being flung at him. Not only that, occasionally there would be a cleric spell that would completely engulf the player for a second or two. Personally, I don’t like that. I want to be able to see my character at all times.
    Another issue relating to the spells I have noticed is that, at least to me, the visual effects of the spells feel detached from the environment. By this I mean the colors that make up the visual effects seem out of place at times from the world you have created. It is kind of hard to describe but the style of the spells doesn’t necessary meet the style of the environment art, at least in my opinion.

    Finally, I do have a suggestion, which you may or may not have already been working on. I think it would be very cool for Tumok, and other bosses of his variety, to sort of live on its on schedule: At night the boss returns to its “home” to eat or something of the sort, and when day arrives he begins to wander on a random path. With this you could also introduce different actions for him to do, so rather than just walking all the time, maybe he gets tired and decides to sit for a while on his tree trunk, or when he gets hungry he goes and kills something to eat, (that one might be too ambitious), but you get what I’m saying. I think it would bring more life to the world of Verra.

    I hope this feedback is useful. Keep up the good work!
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Ok, I rewatched the boss fight and one of the devs did say that this was a simple boss that was meant to just showcase the interaction of big creatures with their environment.

    Now, while I do appreciate that this was stated in the showcase, I do think that it should've been reiterated in the preface. Cause, as much of a joke as they've become, it's way easier to pay attention to their details than the info that's being said while you're trying to parse several visual things on your screen.

    But this being a simple boss, I do still stick to my feedback of "show us the pvx, if you show us the easier pve". I think that'll be my main piece of feedback for this stream and for any future non-hardcore pve showcases.

    Well, from my side I've decided to 'take hate' and post my actual thoughts because I'm definitely standing by the 'inflated 8-man' critique as it is the only valid one I think I can give with the information I have.

    So my add to this for context is that.

    "Someone tell me why this is a 16 or 32 man thing other than spectacle."

    I hope this goes somewhere useful somehow because I was really really looking forward to being excited today...
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • How do you feel about the combat preview featuring the Cyclops? Do you like the mechanics, multi-group gameplay, and boss phases?

    -i like complex bosses with diffrend phases and diffrend patterns
    -the 1st phase of that cyclops act as an DMG test is great to prevent Goups that are to small or weak to aktually do this boss. also the 2nd phase where he does mutch more dmg.
    -maybe it was just his regular pattern but his 3r and final phase where he does a lot of AOE dmg could be more crasy so a World/Zone boss didn't get simply killed by a small Zerg but by actual good (equipped or skilled) players

    What are your favorite open-world raid bosses, or world bosses? Please provide examples when applicable.

    -There were a lot of fun raid/dungeon bosses in Blade and Soul with really great mechanics: one basically got a shield and had to pull the boss in a certain way so everyone else could position themselves safely with that attack pattern. Dobble Boss fights where they had to die at the same time or in a specific order, otherwise they would do heavy damage and kill the party. While there are mechanics where bosses reflect all incoming damage until a certain task is completed, it's always fun. Bosses with large ground AOE abilities that actually require players to jump DURING combat. several players get a buff and have to free each other from it one after the other and then throw it back.
    Basically everything except bosses who are just big meat shields and everyone just fights as agains normal mobs

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cyclops Combat Preview?
    The fact that this boss cuts down trees is great so you can search for it and not just look it up on the minimap.
    The Cyclops might have a final phase where it gets really angry and a final push is needed.
    Also, initially when the cyclops changed focus, it would just casually walk towards it - while being attacked multiple times - instead of jumping
  • FantmxFantmx Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    NiKr wrote: »
    Fantmx wrote: »
    I have to disagree with that initial comparison. That is a very static boss with far fewer players. The one shown had all sorts to charges, changes to hate lists, adds that you had to kill to stop self healing. It appears to have been a drastically different encounter.
    Was it mechanically for players though? All they needed to do was just dps. And clearics would heal a bit after a boss ability here and there. Yes, boss had a few additional mechanics (that I mentioned), but it didn't change anything on player side.
    Fantmx wrote: »
    I have never played L2 beyond a few levels, are these raids instanced? Because I do not see any PvP occurring.
    This was just the video I could find of this boss, cause L2's too old to have a ton of different videos of older content.

    This boss is required for a very important quest, so you'd have a ton of pvp on it. Also, the players in that video are at the top of their progression and are the best players in their class on their server (their weapons are unique and serve as an indicator), so to them this boss is trivial. For a progress-appropriate party it's a bit harder and sometimes you can even die, because you don't have enough dps and the boss just cancels your party's buffs and you're fucked.

    From what I saw they had to dodge charges, get out of AoE, stop the boss from healing himself, kill adds, kill his tree and kill any mushrooms they saw, or use them to heal themselves. I could have missed something though as I watched it live and have not gone back through.
  • FantmxFantmx Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Azherae wrote: »
    Fantmx wrote: »
    I have to disagree with that initial comparison. That is a very static boss with far fewer players. The one shown had all sorts to charges, changes to hate lists, adds that you had to kill to stop self healing. It appears to have been a drastically different encounter.

    When you throw in open world PvP this looks like it could be quite a difficult encounter for that level of players.

    I have never played L2 beyond a few levels, are these raids instanced? Because I do not see any PvP occurring.

    I love the idea of different levels of open world dungeons and bosses. One of the things that EQ did right that few other mmorpgs replicated was raid difficulty encounters across nearly all levels starting with places like Crushbone and Castle Mistmoore.

    What I don't love is the threat of PvP at a difficult point in an encounter :)

    Forgive my vitriol but isn't that the point? What's the real difference here?

    Making more players do the same simplistic stuff isn't what passes for good design these days, is it?

    The entire reason I can't have a reaction to this is that you could give me this exact thing as a single, 6-8 man enemy and it'd be largely the same. It doesn't leverage basically any of the things that make a Raid boss 'Raid Tier', which is fine if it is supposed to be super simple, but then it's super simple.

    I know maybe we're at the point where 'this game is not for me', but are my group and I really so far removed from MMO gameplay that we just can't grasp at all what is important to people anymore? This was so relatively lame that I don't know where to even start, so I don't know what you're seeing and should probably rewatch it too, but like, couldn't you put all those things on just basic mobs? Is the MMO community so changed that they can't see that this is just an inflated Alpha-1 Troll with a healing mechanic that's basically a DPS check?

    What would you change? For lower level players with PvP thrown in, this seems pretty challenging to me. This isn't "end game."
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Fantmx wrote: »
    From what I saw they had to dodge charges, get out of AoE, stop the boss from healing himself, kill adds, kill his tree and kill any mushrooms they saw, or use them to heal themselves. I could have missed something though as I watched it live and have not gone back through.
    Barely anyone got out of aoe. And those who tried were mainly ranged people who were already three kilometers away from the boss, because range of attacks was quite far. The charge barely did any dmg, so I didn't notice that many people dodging it. And all the "killings" were just dps checks.

    Now I get that this kind of breaking an encounter apart can be applied to most things and make them seem super simple, but that's just how most combat goes tbh. After rewatching the fight and hearing a dev say that this was a simple boss, I'm more ok with those mechanics being super simple. Obviously Azherae isn't, but that's mainly cause her standards are WAY HIGHER than mine :D
  • DizzDizz Member
    edited May 2023
    -How do you feel about the combat preview featuring the Cyclops? Do you like the mechanics, multi-group gameplay, and boss phases?

Overall I like it a lot and I'm glad to see that the game is improving in all aspects.

    I feel cyclops fight can be harder than you showed in the demo video. For example, in totem phase will spawn healing mushrooms and psilocybin mushrooms and cyclops might eat those mushrooms to heal or get buffs or make cyclops become more violence and hard to control in the final phase etc if your team don’t deal with those mushrooms quick enough. Maybe as long as node progress boss like cyclops can have more different interesting mechanics.

    I wonder that does fire magic deal more damage to the tree totem. Hope you will show more detail like ice>fire>earth>thunder>ice kind of system(I don’t know what it called in english sorry) in future.



    -What are your favorite open-world raid bosses, or world bosses? Please provide examples when applicable.


    I like most of meta events, world bosses and bounties in GW2. My favorite meta event is Dragon's Stand, favorite world boss is Tequatl the Sunless or Triple Trouble's Evolved Wurms, I like the feeling of fighting with massive number of strangers together to accomplish a meta event. Bounties are very good, feels more traditional way to me but still a good target for players interested in activating the guild or community can regularly organize events like world boss train etc.


    -Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cyclops Combat Preview?


    I love the design not every monster will instantly attack player while player enter the aggro range. It makes the world feels more alive and real. It also makes me wonder is there any monster may lure player into traps or specifically sneak attack the player who turns the back to the monster.

    I hope you can add something to show the life side of the monster like in MHW. For example, cyclops is a roaming boss but maybe he has a reason when he goes to a place, maybe to sleep or to eat or even maybe the place is his favorite relax spot etc.
    A casual follower from TW.

    ↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
    Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Fantmx wrote: »
    What would you change? For lower level players with PvP thrown in, this seems pretty challenging to me. This isn't "end game."
    But shouldn't we strive for better content across all lvls? Isn't that the point of Intrepid going for a super long leveling process? The low levels being fun too.

    How would a person know that high lvl content is fun and cool when they have 200h between them and that content. All while their current content is "stay in one spot and unload your mana into the boss".
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