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Linux Support For Alpha2 (and possibly launch)

Archy_PelagoArchy_Pelago Member, Alpha Two
edited June 2023 in General Discussion
How many votes does the community need to get for Intrepid to consider linux support for AoC?
I give my vote +1
«13

Comments

  • TalentsTalents Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited June 2023
    Need to make more than 1% of the gaming population actually use Linux. Maybe Intrepid would consider it if 10% of the gaming pop used it. https://www.pcmag.com/news/percentage-of-linux-gamers-on-steam-tops-1-for-first-time-in-years
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  • uncounteduncounted Member
    I would like that too but it's highly unlikely to get any kind of support at release let alone in alpha. We can only hope for some wine unofficial "support" after release if any.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Good news. I'll bet if you go intern and help them implement it for free they would be more likely to consider it. Otherwise all I see is scope creep.

    https://intrepidstudios.com/careers
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • ariatrasariatras Member, Founder, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 2023
    I highly doubt it, for the last two years, during the twenty-four hour livestreams I've asked whether or not they would consider not screwing over those who run the game via wine or proton. Only to be met with blank stares.

    Having no Linux support is generally fine. There are many games that don't offer official support, but they work fine, and often times better than on Windows. We tend to get screwed over by Anti-Cheat.

    From what I understand, their own Anti-Cheat isn't functional yet, so they are using EAC. Whilst EAC is an absolute cancer, it has options to allow Linux.

    Additionally, in Windows only games. Mac users also tend to run the game via compatibility layers.
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  • Archy_PelagoArchy_Pelago Member, Alpha Two
    edited June 2023
    A lot of good points were made for linux support in previous posts and the I think I've read a few of yours @ariatras.
    I don't think intrepid ruled linux support out but it would be nice and assuring if we get a response from a team member and in the process maybe we can create an official poll.
    I bet there are a lot of linux users in the AoC community.

    P.S
    I just hope I don't need to install windows to be able to play AoC D;
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Whats wrong with wine? I guess it depends on the anticheat system. Linux is a pain to code for so most will modify wine for Linux users.
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  • Archy_PelagoArchy_Pelago Member, Alpha Two
    Wine compatibility is perfectly fine @Neurath and @ariatras already made a question referring it https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/45334/wine-compatibility#latest
    There is no official news outside AoC being playable only on Windows platforms
  • KingDDDKingDDD Member, Alpha Two
    Can we get Mac support too?
  • Archy_PelagoArchy_Pelago Member, Alpha Two
    With wine compatibility @KingDDD mac users will be able to enjoy AoC too.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 2023
    Yeah wine will be fine :)
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  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 2023
    Your problem in getting it adopted is that it is a niche of a niche and requires significant work to get it implemented without giving away the game. The Wine/Proton crowd has bitched and moaned for years about various anti-cheats blocking them from access to games with Epic and EAC being their main hobgoblin. And the argument that "If you just gave us the rights to run it, we wouldn't use it for any other purpose, honest!" falls flat. Intrepid has decided that their metrics on the number of users affected or even Steven's perception of how many actual Linux users who game, who might be interested in playing Ashes, and actually will play the game as being a percent of a percent is valid. Give up, embrace your overlords, and install Windows. Cause that is what you are getting for a platform as of right now.

    You want bots? Cause this is how you get bots.
    From the interweebs.
    "EAC has (and has had for years) a native Linux client. That native Linux client is userspace only and has zero kernel access. Before, it was only for native Linux games that had EAC, like War Thunder, 7 Days to Die, Rust (before they abandoned Linux), etc. Epic refused to allow the Linux native EAC to work with Windows EAC games through Wine/Proton. That changed last fall, when Epic made the announcement.

    Now, EAC games that work in Wine/Proton use the LINUX NATIVE EAC client, which communicates with a Linux EAC binary that each game that enables support ships, alongside their Windows EAC binary. The Steam Proton EasyAntiCheat Runtime is also required. This runtime allows the NATIVE Linux EAC client (which again, is 100% userspace only and has no kernel level access) to communicate with the Windows userspace EAC binary, to allow for a less-secure but still better than nothing EAC functionality for Windows games running in Wine/Proton.

    The exact same situation is true for BattlEye. BattlEye has had a native Linux client for years, but it was userspace only, and didn't work with Wine/Proton games. Now it does, in the same way EAC does.

    This is also why so many games are refusing to enable it. Because it's inherently less secure against cheaters than the kernel-level EAC/BattlEye Windows implementation. And I (and others) said from the beginning when it was announced last fall that many games would in fact refuse to enable EAC/BE support because of the less secure nature and increased risk of cheaters. And I was right."
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  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The problem is that Linux provides better performance and Microsoft almost has a monopoly. It is easy to code for a monopoly on gaming and not so easy to remedy the issues around the better performance os. Wine might make the issues to lesser performance but unity engine has performed cross os operations and shows it can be done. The issue remains the consistent opensource criterion that plagues Linux and enable countless scripts to be embedded.
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  • Archy_PelagoArchy_Pelago Member, Alpha Two
    Not only better performance on linux but safer browsing for regular users. Nowadays it is much easier to install pretty much any linux distro than windows with it's questions and required accounts. Windows has the market now but might not be for long
    unknownsystemerror wrote: »
    Your problem in getting it adopted is that it is a niche of a niche and requires significant work to get it implemented without giving away the game."

    That's what I want to find out, what percentage of the community are regular linux users (isn't ashes a niche game too, not meant for everyone?). Plus Intrepid said in the past they are thinking of making their own anti-cheat system, a poll would benefit them too.

  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    "This is a pretty quick one. Will the upgrade to UE5 affect offered operations systems?" Livestream from a year and half or so back Steven answered what he thought was their number on Linux users that would be playing Ashes. Full answer here. Timestamp 48:45 if the link goes wonky.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB7gWTpeB08&t=2925s&ab_channel=AshesofCreation
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  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Yeah. Its a self perpetuating issue. Because of a lack of Linux support there is less Linux users. It's a vicious cycle. Unfortunately, it is a tough sell for gamers when most games shun Linux.
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  • BlackBronyBlackBrony Member, Alpha Two
    Man, Linux sucks. I've used Ubuntu for work and suddenly your WiFi drivers stop working for some reason and then you need another computer or cable to make it work. So yeah, no thanks. Don't waste money on Linux.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    That's because Linux has no official WiFi module. You should use Intel WiFi for ubuntu. Ubuntu has the same issues as Linux in terms of non Intel WiFi cards.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    That's because Linux has no official WiFi module. You should use Intel WiFi for ubuntu. Ubuntu has the same issues as Linux in terms of non Intel WiFi cards.

    This post illustrates why the Linux share of gamers is less than 1%.

    Like it or not, on Windows, WiFi just works. You dont even need a driver (though it is recommended).

    Even more so than game compatibility, this aspect of Linux is what Steam are trying to fix. You buy a Steamdeck, it has a working install of Linux that is able to run games (already dozens of hours of effort for someone not familiar with the Linux world), and all hardware on the device works (another dozen or more hours).

    Trying to get that same level of functionality on an existing computer could take literally months, and depending on hardware, may literally not even be possible.

    As I have said in other threads, the barrier to Linux gaining any more market share than what it has now is ease of use. Until it becomes as easy as Windows, its market share will remain 1%.

    An example of the issues involved with making Linux more user friendly though, is in distributions. If I am considering installing Windows, I have one real option. If I am considering installing Linux, I have what, 15, maybe 20 options? And if I get the wrong distro, I could get months in and realize I need to start again.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Yeah. That is a reason why servers are often Linux and most Linux users use cable connections.
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  • Archy_PelagoArchy_Pelago Member, Alpha Two
    The problem is not the adoption but there is no incentive for linux being used outside development.
    I do agree @Noaani that there is a learning gap and much more space for error in linux (because there is more freedom than in windows!) but tbh if you update your machine on time seldom does something wrong happen.
    Like regular users don't know how to use powershell, not speaking about as the terminal in linux. Having the possibility for users to enjoy mmorpg's on linux pushes the world to a more of a "web3" environment.
    Would still be nice to see Intrepid push for other OS integration, even if its after launch.
  • superhero6785superhero6785 Member, Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    Yeah. That is a reason why servers are often Linux and most Linux users use cable connections.

    The reason servers often use Linux is because Microsoft charges a lot of money for Windows licenses :)
    As more people move to Linux to save money, then Linux gets more support, which makes it a better option, and so on. Unfortunately, gamers aren't installing Linux to save money on a Windows key, so the user base remains small, so there's no incentive to improve Linux support for games.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited June 2023
    superhero6785 wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Yeah. That is a reason why servers are often Linux and most Linux users use cable connections.

    The reason servers often use Linux is because Microsoft charges a lot of money for Windows licenses :)
    As more people move to Linux to save money, then Linux gets more support, which makes it a better option, and so on. Unfortunately, gamers aren't installing Linux to save money on a Windows key, so the user base remains small, so there's no incentive to improve Linux support for games.

    While this is true in terms of how things stand now, as Valve has pointed out with the Steamdeck, it is on Linux developers to be the first to move - not on players or game developers.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    superhero6785 wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Yeah. That is a reason why servers are often Linux and most Linux users use cable connections.

    The reason servers often use Linux is because Microsoft charges a lot of money for Windows licenses :)
    As more people move to Linux to save money, then Linux gets more support, which makes it a better option, and so on. Unfortunately, gamers aren't installing Linux to save money on a Windows key, so the user base remains small, so there's no incentive to improve Linux support for games.

    The reason servers have linux is due to security increase. Windows is leaker than an open window thanks to the netscape purchase which didn't cover the initial security codes.
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  • superhero6785superhero6785 Member, Alpha Two
    edited June 2023
    Neurath wrote: »
    superhero6785 wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Yeah. That is a reason why servers are often Linux and most Linux users use cable connections.

    The reason servers often use Linux is because Microsoft charges a lot of money for Windows licenses :)
    As more people move to Linux to save money, then Linux gets more support, which makes it a better option, and so on. Unfortunately, gamers aren't installing Linux to save money on a Windows key, so the user base remains small, so there's no incentive to improve Linux support for games.

    The reason servers have linux is due to security increase. Windows is leaker than an open window thanks to the netscape purchase which didn't cover the initial security codes.

    I mean there are many reasons, but on average none of them compare to the C-Suite saying "Yeah, yeah, but what does it cost?" :)
    Noaani wrote: »
    superhero6785 wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Yeah. That is a reason why servers are often Linux and most Linux users use cable connections.

    The reason servers often use Linux is because Microsoft charges a lot of money for Windows licenses :)
    As more people move to Linux to save money, then Linux gets more support, which makes it a better option, and so on. Unfortunately, gamers aren't installing Linux to save money on a Windows key, so the user base remains small, so there's no incentive to improve Linux support for games.

    While this is true in terms of how things stand now, as Valve has pointed out with the Steamdeck, it is on Linux developers to be the first to move - not on players or game developers.

    Agreed. Generally, developers build for the platforms that customers gravitate towards, not the other way around. "Pushing" people to anything is generally done for some external reasons where you want to influence behavior when it's not happening naturally. That push comes at a cost. One that game developers have no external reason to take on. So if Linux has any desire to become a gaming platform, they'll have to be the ones to take on that overhead, which clearly they haven't been able to justify yet.
  • ArcticElysiumArcticElysium Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    It's okay we'll just dual boot that bloatware OS, until linux support is finally recognized by Intrepid
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited December 2023
    That 1% people keep quoting is far from what Linux Gaming has been going since the Steam Deck launched. There is many more millions of new Linux gamers. Because of what Valve has done, it takes little to support Linux gaming. You still use a Windows exe but you just need to support the proton support for Linux. More and more people are making Linux gaming boxes. Ashes should so add support for this.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited December 2023
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    That 1% people keep quoting is far from what Linux Gaming has been going since the Steam Deck launched. There is many more millions of new Linux gamers. Because of what Valve has done, it takes little to support Linux gaming. You still use a Windows exe but you just need to support the proton support for Linux. More and more people are making Linux gaming boxes. Ashes should so add support for this.

    None of what Valve has done has any impact on making Linux a suitable platform for competitive games.

    Casual/single player games perhaps, but not any game with any form of competition.

    Additionally, Steam Deck existing has not really added many Linux first gamers - almost everyone that has one uses it as their secondary or tertiary gaming device.
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  • RazThemunRazThemun Member, Alpha Two
    edited January 7
    Out of all the friends I have made over the years in the gaming communities.... I have 2 that use linux.

    Not saying people don't use it and wouldn't, but the numbers are simply not there to make it worth the hassle. If data shows they had a few servers worth of people that use Linux I could see that as enticing.

    Heck they could just do a poll in their discord; Asking who uses linux? Results would likely be less than 5% of the discord community.
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