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Some speculation and napkin math on how many freeholds can be in the game.

NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
edited July 2023 in General Discussion
From the livestream Steven said this (slightly paraphrased):
  • Each Zone of Influence has designated large parcels of land that are catered to POIs or are thematically relevant to the area.
  • You can bid on those almost county size areas where you can then place your freehold within.
  • Freeholds are now 1.5 acres, where they used to be 0.5 acres.
  • The parcels are "many, many, many acres" in size.

The landmass of Verra is 480 km2, excluding the underrealm, which adds around 100 km2. Underrealm freeholds seems to be a thing too, so let's add that for a total of 580 km2.

1 acre = 0.00404685642 square kilometers

Obviously a lot of land is unusable for freeholds, since it's covered by roads, nodes, mountains, POIs, dungeons, etc. For the sake of argument let's put it at 300 km2 usable for freeholds. Just over half the landmass.

What "almost county size" and "many, many, many acres" means is really hard to guess honestly, but let's say 50 acres for a parcel at a minimum. 50 acres is around 0.202 km2.
If we have a total of 300 km2 to play with that's 300/0.202 = 1482 parcels of land, and thus potentially that many freeholds as well.

That's not a horribly low amount, but for a game with up to 50,000 accounts per server, that's still only 1 in 33 that gets a freehold. I kind of doubt the 50k accounts per server though, so let's put it at 25k accounts max, which means there are enough freeholds for 1 in 16 accounts or so.

We can play with the numbers a little: If we get 400 km2 total parcel land and 50 acre parcels, we get 1980 freeholds.

If the parcels are 100 acres instead of 50 we obviously only get half the number of freeholds.

A big positive for this approach is that we won't be getting freehold cities dominating the landscape, so from a visual fidelity point of view, limiting the number and proximity of the freeholds is definitely the right move.

It also absolutely kills the dreams of many time-casual players if only 1 out of 16 players can get a freehold, and it might promote a huge demand for buying RMT gold, especially since the freehold plots can be sold by other players.

On the flipside, it's also going to drive people to destroy more nodes so freehold slots might free up.



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Comments

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    That raises a REALLY interesting question for me at least.

    If I get my freehold 'permit' from my region's Metro but my plot is all the way out past a Town...

    And the Metro gets destroyed but the City between me and it is still standing...

    What happens to my Freehold?
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • prymortalprymortal Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Nerror wrote: »
    It also absolutely kills the dreams of many time-casual players if only 1 out of 16 players can get a freehold, and it might promote a huge demand for buying RMT gold, especially since the freehold plots can be sold by other players.

    Yip Promotes RMT & take the Inventory change to Tarkov style that promotes Bot usage to level since it gimps XP & collection.

    But on the freehold side of things, there are options I suspect they are going be level instances meaning they can actually put more than 1 at each location in future. Displaying the highest tier one per location. While that isn't there plan now IT IS AN OPTION!
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Which is a thing i don't believe they want casual players being the majority that controls freeholds do to their importance overall and producing the best processing materials. Though through family systems and time I'm sure some casuals will make their ways to get it. But i feel that freeholds are going to be much more on the competitive side of things. And a good way to have an advantage both in gear for your guilds and in money.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Azherae wrote: »
    That raises a REALLY interesting question for me at least.

    If I get my freehold 'permit' from my region's Metro but my plot is all the way out past a Town...

    And the Metro gets destroyed but the City between me and it is still standing...

    What happens to my Freehold?

    From the Wiki:
    If a siege is successful, then the Node is brought down to Level 0, and anyone who was a citizen of that Node is no longer a citizen. Freeholds within the Zone of Influence are subject to a period of vulnerability. These Freeholds can be destroyed by other players during a period of roughly 2 hours after a successful siege. Destroyed Freeholds are subject to material loss, and blueprints for them are mailed to the player to utilize for future placement in order to allow the player to keep their Freehold’s layout and structure. Once the vulnerability period is complete, any remaining Freeholds will exist under a grace period for roughly 1 week where another Node may take over the Zone of Influence of the Freehold.

    So you might keep it as if nothing happened if it just falls under the vassal node's ZOI now. Unless they changed it. I assume you would have to do a quest or something for the new node within that week though, but maybe it's just automatic.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Nerror wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    That raises a REALLY interesting question for me at least.

    If I get my freehold 'permit' from my region's Metro but my plot is all the way out past a Town...

    And the Metro gets destroyed but the City between me and it is still standing...

    What happens to my Freehold?

    From the Wiki:
    If a siege is successful, then the Node is brought down to Level 0, and anyone who was a citizen of that Node is no longer a citizen. Freeholds within the Zone of Influence are subject to a period of vulnerability. These Freeholds can be destroyed by other players during a period of roughly 2 hours after a successful siege. Destroyed Freeholds are subject to material loss, and blueprints for them are mailed to the player to utilize for future placement in order to allow the player to keep their Freehold’s layout and structure. Once the vulnerability period is complete, any remaining Freeholds will exist under a grace period for roughly 1 week where another Node may take over the Zone of Influence of the Freehold.

    So you might keep it if it just falls under the vassal nodes purview now. Unless they changed it. I assume you would have to do a quest or something for the new node within that week though.

    That's a really interesting outcome since that might mean 'different Random freeholds are in danger and others aren't' based on where the owner is a citizen of or got their plot registration from.

    I don't think we actually had citizenship and Freehold Placement tied together, but that's another solution.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Considering that family members can pretty much do whatever on the freehold, I now choose to see them as party content rather than a solo one. Obviously there'll be solo players that manage to get their hands on one, but I think that majority of freeholds will be bought by groups of people pooling some money together.

    And with the general design being skewed towards parties and close-knit communities, I think that we can count 1 freehold per ~8 people on a server. So if there's ~1k freehold spots (my current theory) that'd mean ~8k people will have a freehold to use and benefit from.

    The remaining however many people will have to either deal with apartments or lay siege to some nodes in hopes of grabbing themselves some land. Which seems to be "working as intended", in terms of everchanging node life on a server.

    Splitting the costs (both of purchase and of taxes) between 8 people would also lessen the shock of loss, in case their node does fall and the freehold gets destroyed. Which could potentially increase the player retention in the long run.

    Intrepid just gotta find a way to push people towards socializing in a positive way rather than a "you either party up or you can't play".
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Considering that family members can pretty much do whatever on the freehold, I now choose to see them as party content rather than a solo one. Obviously there'll be solo players that manage to get their hands on one, but I think that majority of freeholds will be bought by groups of people pooling some money together.

    Yup, this is my thought as well.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    prymortal wrote: »
    But on the freehold side of things, there are options I suspect they are going be level instances meaning they can actually put more than 1 at each location in future. Displaying the highest tier one per location. While that isn't there plan now IT IS AN OPTION!
    I'm not really sure I understand what you're saying here. Are you suggesting freehold instances?
  • VarkunVarkun Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Considering that family members can pretty much do whatever on the freehold, I now choose to see them as party content rather than a solo one. Obviously there'll be solo players that manage to get their hands on one, but I think that majority of freeholds will be bought by groups of people pooling some money together.

    After the stream today this is very much my opinion freeholds are group content, you select your family members carefully from amongst your guild mates/friends with likeminded goals as to what they desire from a freehold and then pool their resources to make it happen.

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    Never write a check with your mouth you can't cash with your ass!.
  • Nerror wrote: »
    It also absolutely kills the dreams of many time-casual players if only 1 out of 16 players can get a freehold, and it might promote a huge demand for buying RMT gold, especially since the freehold plots can be sold by other players.
    Maybe they will go to less populated servers?

    Large guilds and large alliances (maybe centered around streamers) will be helped to get a freehold.
    Streamers get real money from their supporters anyway. Is it bad If they sell freeholds cheaply to their followers?
    Even if the large guild leader is not a streamer, is it bad if the guild helps guild members?

    The game can be made to be streamer friendly or streamer hostile.
    Nerror wrote: »
    On the flipside, it's also going to drive people to destroy more nodes so freehold slots might free up.
    Makes sense.
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Good discussion. Remember, though, that there will be housing in the nodes which will be quite attractive to many players - the size of the house can grow as the node levels up and you can also put crops around your house - so many players will choose node houses rather than freeholds.

    Additionally, nodes can build apartments and building these housing buildings will be attractive to nodes. Nodes need citizens to grow and level up and apartments enable citizens so they will be almost essential for large nodes to build lots of apartments and (perhaps) price then cheaply.

    Freeholds are very attractive, but there will be lots of housing besides them. This might double the available housing (or more!), which impacts these calculations.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Raven016 wrote: »
    Nerror wrote: »
    It also absolutely kills the dreams of many time-casual players if only 1 out of 16 players can get a freehold, and it might promote a huge demand for buying RMT gold, especially since the freehold plots can be sold by other players.
    Maybe they will go to less populated servers?

    Large guilds and large alliances (maybe centered around streamers) will be helped to get a freehold.
    Streamers get real money from their supporters anyway. Is it bad If they sell freeholds cheaply to their followers?
    Even if the large guild leader is not a streamer, is it bad if the guild helps guild members?

    The game can be made to be streamer friendly or streamer hostile.

    I fully expect any resale of freeholds to also be a bidding system. Direct sales to another player would be a horrible way to do it. It's bad enough that the bidding system combined with the scarcity promotes RMT, but direct sales would take it to 11. We'd see freeholds for sale directly on the net for hundreds or thousands of dollars. With a bidding system they at least can't do that, because anyone with enough gold can win the bid.
  • I do not know if there is a way to prevent RMT and still allow economy in a game.
    If players can give each other gold to help buy things which they would otherwise never be able to buy by their own effort, the prerequisites are there to create debate if the game is fair or not.

    One thing feels unfair to me. Some players say they bought freehold cosmetics.
    It can happen that they will never end up owning one.
    I would really prefer to help such players get their freeholds and enjoy a better looking freehold than none of us to have one.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Nerror wrote: »
    I fully expect any resale of freeholds to also be a bidding system. Direct sales to another player would be a horrible way to do it. It's bad enough that the bidding system combined with the scarcity promotes RMT, but direct sales would take it to 11. We'd see freeholds for sale directly on the net for hundreds or thousands of dollars. With a bidding system they at least can't do that, because anyone with enough gold can win the bid.
    Steven said on discord that it's both a bid and a direct sell, sellers choice. So definitely RMTable and Intrepid will have to somehow track that and prevent it.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Nerror wrote: »
    I fully expect any resale of freeholds to also be a bidding system. Direct sales to another player would be a horrible way to do it. It's bad enough that the bidding system combined with the scarcity promotes RMT, but direct sales would take it to 11. We'd see freeholds for sale directly on the net for hundreds or thousands of dollars. With a bidding system they at least can't do that, because anyone with enough gold can win the bid.
    Steven said on discord that it's both a bid and a direct sell, sellers choice. So definitely RMTable and Intrepid will have to somehow track that and prevent it.

    Oh wow, that's bad. He really needs to change that.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I wonder if the freehold starts as direct sale or a bidding war.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    I wonder if the freehold starts as direct sale or a bidding war.
    Starts as a bid. And you can only bid if you've done a quest (no info on that quest).
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    I screenshotted some of the pertinent comments by Steven on Discord. So "low thousands" is the target amount. Which means 2-3k I guess? I'd wager closer to 2k than 3k.
    Also, in-node housing provides different utility, so maybe the crafters will be going for those instead of for the freeholds? They are changing the amount of in-node housing as well, which we'll learn more about next week.
    And future Ember refunds for freehold skins, for the people mad about the freehold thing.

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  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Not sure how I feel about the embers transaction. I have a lot of building skins, more than one should have I guess and I'm not even sure what I would spend embers on right now let alone after launch...I've got a lot of skins and I've designed my toon's look via the skins. The eventual look will depend on what legendary gear looks like in game.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Nerror wrote: »
    I screenshotted some of the pertinent comments by Steven on Discord.
    You should include the message that people will be able to process stuff in nodes as well. Not master lvl+ stuff, but still. Cause I've seen some people assume that literally the entire processing profession is locked behind a freehold.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Nerror wrote: »
    I screenshotted some of the pertinent comments by Steven on Discord.
    You should include the message that people will be able to process stuff in nodes as well. Not master lvl+ stuff, but still. Cause I've seen some people assume that literally the entire processing profession is locked behind a freehold.

    Piggies?
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Nerror wrote: »
    I screenshotted some of the pertinent comments by Steven on Discord.
    You should include the message that people will be able to process stuff in nodes as well. Not master lvl+ stuff, but still. Cause I've seen some people assume that literally the entire processing profession is locked behind a freehold.

    I might have missed that one. I'll take your word for it :smile: It makes sense too. Up to journeyman crafting on freeholds and up to journeyman processing in cities.
  • CawwCaww Member, Alpha Two
    Promoting the Freeholds as a major feature and attraction of game play and then telling players most of you will never get one will diminish enthusiasm and interest in AoC as people wonder what else has limited potential for unrestricted access further down the road.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
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  • LaetitianLaetitian Member
    edited July 2023
    NiKr wrote: »
    Nerror wrote: »
    I fully expect any resale of freeholds to also be a bidding system. Direct sales to another player would be a horrible way to do it. It's bad enough that the bidding system combined with the scarcity promotes RMT, but direct sales would take it to 11. We'd see freeholds for sale directly on the net for hundreds or thousands of dollars. With a bidding system they at least can't do that, because anyone with enough gold can win the bid.
    Steven said on discord that it's both a bid and a direct sell, sellers choice. So definitely RMTable and Intrepid will have to somehow track that and prevent it.

    Is that recent information and are you sure you interpreted it correctly?? Contradicts with what was said in 2020 and is still quoted on both the Freeholds and the Cities wikia entry.
    The cities entry says *buildings in cities* can be resold to other players directly after already built and owned by a player. Real estate that doesn't have that function, which is the category that Freeholds belonged to in 2020, may only be resold to the node owner.

    https://youtu.be/KesMtSOZl8k?t=2881
    48:00-49:25

    Makes more sense that way. Otherwise the auction system would be a farce once the server is populated.
    The only one who can validate you for all the posts you didn't write is you.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Laetitian wrote: »
    Makes more sense that way. Otherwise the auction system would be a farce once the server is populated.
    1z3bxfm0i274.png
    Lex is sick now so probably didn't have enough energy/time to update everything on the wiki.
  • LaetitianLaetitian Member
    edited July 2023
    Hm. I guess perhaps natural resource limitations and regular sieges will ensure that this system won't be abused too heavily by people who plan to win all highly contested auctions and resell for real-world money, or at absurd prices? That would be the only reason I could imagine for why he would have changed his stance on this.
    The only one who can validate you for all the posts you didn't write is you.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Laetitian wrote: »
    Hm. I guess perhaps natural resource limitations and regular sieges will ensure that this system won't be abused too heavily by people who plan to win all highly contested auctions and resell for real-world money, or at absurd prices? That would be the only reason I could imagine for why he would have changed his stance on this.
    He likes to change it quite often. Last time we heard about freeholds - we couldn't even sell those fuckers :D Oh and btw, the time before that time - WE COULD :D:D I had a mighty roflcopter about that when I learned about it after the stream.

    The sandal lord is very flip floppy
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    tautau wrote: »
    Good discussion. Remember, though, that there will be housing in the nodes which will be quite attractive to many players - the size of the house can grow as the node levels up and you can also put crops around your house - so many players will choose node houses rather than freeholds.

    Additionally, nodes can build apartments and building these housing buildings will be attractive to nodes. Nodes need citizens to grow and level up and apartments enable citizens so they will be almost essential for large nodes to build lots of apartments and (perhaps) price then cheaply.

    Freeholds are very attractive, but there will be lots of housing besides them. This might double the available housing (or more!), which impacts these calculations.

    Thanks for raising this. a key point that perhaps could have been raised in the monthly talk and certainly something they should probably raise to help clarity
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Definately do not want to see multiple freeholds within pve or boss areas..
    Would like to see some distinction between domestic freehold areas and open wilderness.
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