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Flagged for PVP - How long does it last?

AbaratAbarat Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
edited July 2023 in General Discussion
Lets say I am out looking for things to mine. I am a miner. I mine things.

I see a player whacking on a rock i want to mine myself and go over and attack them.

They do not fight back. I decide I would rather not go red and leave the area. How long am I flagged as a combatant?

Do we know?
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Comments

  • HumblePuffinHumblePuffin Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2023
    90 seconds

    *from their most recent attack
  • AbaratAbarat Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Thanks. looked on the wiki and missed it.
  • AbaratAbarat Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    that sounds like it might be too short, but testing will tell
  • HumblePuffinHumblePuffin Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Abarat wrote: »
    Thanks. looked on the wiki and missed it.

    That wiki is huge with layers on top of layers. We don’t deserve Lex.

    Yeah it might be. I do personally think it’s a decent jumping off point. 90 seconds can feel pretty long in game.
  • AbaratAbarat Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    true
  • Honestly, I feel like you should gain corruption for even attacking a green player. Albeit a small amount. I can see people who don't mind playing as combatants just attacking greens because they think it's funny, or to annoy them & to bait them into fighting back.
    f51pcwlbgn8a.png
  • AbaratAbarat Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    everyone is green until yo attack them. how would you deal with that?
  • RavicusRavicus Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Honestly, I feel like you should gain corruption for even attacking a green player. Albeit a small amount. I can see people who don't mind playing as combatants just attacking greens because they think it's funny, or to annoy them & to bait them into fighting back.

    I am not opposed to that.
    5pc7z05ap5uc.png
  • HumblePuffinHumblePuffin Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I really don’t understand why we can’t just manually flag.

    I feel like it’s fair to run around as a combatant to show that I’m down for some pvps, in exchange for reduced death penalties.

    Greens can tell that maybe they should be more concerned about me, purples know that I’m down for a scuffle. Win win.

    I would keep the force attack method too.
  • AbaratAbarat Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    seems legit to me.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    Abarat wrote: »
    Thanks. looked on the wiki and missed it.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_flagging
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Yeah, 90 seconds is what it has been set to for a few years - not that it is talked about much. I think this is the first time it has been asked on the forums - first I recall at least.

    My expectation is that it will be increased to closer to 150 seconds, perhaps 180.

    The issue with players being able to flag themselves is it increases the understanding players will have of whether someone is likely to fight back or not (which I gather is the reason you want it), but in turn this will drastically impact the corruption system. Steven has talked about this in the past.

    The thing to remember with the corruption system is that Intrepid will want to maintain a minimum number of players gaining corruption. This is why the system has the levers that it has. If players can just look and see (even partially) who is definately going to fight back and who may not fight back, then corruption gain will be altered in unpredicable ways.

    That isn't to say it may not change, but that was the reasoning given back in like 2018 or something.
  • HumblePuffinHumblePuffin Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Honestly, I feel like you should gain corruption for even attacking a green player. Albeit a small amount. I can see people who don't mind playing as combatants just attacking greens because they think it's funny, or to annoy them & to bait them into fighting back.

    You would need to change the systems in place to do that. Currently a green doesn’t flag if they are attacking someone who is corrupt.

    Since there’s currently no manual flagging, every time you even attempt to feel out some PvP with someone you would incur stat dampening, and 400% death penalties.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DeKhbtog_pI&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.ashesofcreation.com%2Fdiscussion%2F53110%2Fone-more-time-how-the-pk-system-works-and-what-the-intention-of-the-design-i&source_ve_path=MjM4NTE&feature=emb_title

    Here is a video explaining the system AoC will use for open world PvP.

    The flagging/corruption system is there to protect:
    Questing
    Leveling
    Exploring
    Economy
    from senseless killing of players.

    This system is taken from Lineage 2, an mmo in which Steven was an alliance leader. Watch and learn how players will fight other players in the open world. This system isn't relevant for guild wars, sieges, caravans and the open seas.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    There is no need for testing. It doesnt matter if it's 90s or 60s or whatever. The system worked, works, will work.
    Focus your feedback on other stuff.
  • Interesting, I completely overlooked there is no manually flagging, I just assumed there was. I agree with @HumblePuffin, think a manual flag is a win win.

    Does the 90s increase if you attack someone else in that time or does that time just reset back to 90s?
  • I really don’t understand why we can’t just manually flag.

    I feel like it’s fair to run around as a combatant to show that I’m down for some pvps, in exchange for reduced death penalties.

    Greens can tell that maybe they should be more concerned about me, purples know that I’m down for a scuffle. Win win.

    I would keep the force attack method too.

    My guess is manual flagging would turn out like NW where most people don't bother flagging for pvp at all.

    Apparently, everyone loves open world pvp, but when given a choice, the majority choose not to engage.
    "A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities." —J.R.R. Tolkien
  • 90 seconds

    *from their most recent attack
    I really don’t understand why we can’t just manually flag.
    It tells you that there is someone else nearby too, who lived to see another day.
  • I understand the point about NW, I was expecting to find lots of people flagged but hardly ever did.

    So if, as a green, I see a Purple player, can I attack them without the forced attack or having my skills checked? I know it will flag me, but just don't know if the forced attack is needed? I'm guessing not?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Shabooey wrote: »
    I understand the point about NW, I was expecting to find lots of people flagged but hardly ever did.

    So if, as a green, I see a Purple player, can I attack them without the forced attack or having my skills checked? I know it will flag me, but just don't know if the forced attack is needed? I'm guessing not?

    My understanding is that you do still need to force attack.

    This is because if it is not needed, someone could walk up to an AoE based class killing mobs and essentially force them to flag by walking in to an AoE.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    LadyZel wrote: »
    I really don’t understand why we can’t just manually flag.

    I feel like it’s fair to run around as a combatant to show that I’m down for some pvps, in exchange for reduced death penalties.

    Greens can tell that maybe they should be more concerned about me, purples know that I’m down for a scuffle. Win win.

    I would keep the force attack method too.

    My guess is manual flagging would turn out like NW where most people don't bother flagging for pvp at all.

    Apparently, everyone loves open world pvp, but when given a choice, the majority choose not to engage.

    Yeah, it's funny how this is the case.

    People love the idea of PvP, they love PvP when they want it (this is me), but most people primarily just want to get on doing the thing they want to be doing.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    edited July 2023
    Noaani wrote: »
    My understanding is that you do still need to force attack.

    This is because if it is not needed, someone could walk up to an AoE based class killing mobs and essentially force them to flag by walking in to an AoE.
    L2 didn't require you to use force attack to hit a flagged person. But Ashes has the action part of the combat, so I'd assume they'll do what you said. AoEs are controlled by a checkmark in the settings, but unless action abilities are controlled by the same setting - you'll have to force your attacks any time you want to attack another player (though probably not against PKers).
  • Ah right ok, makes sense. I didn't take into account that actually some Greens don't want to always attack Purples so having it so any of their skills could flag them might be going against what AoC is trying to do.
    It seemed like reading the Wiki that Corrupt players are free to be attacked by anyone.

  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Shabooey wrote: »
    It seemed like reading the Wiki that Corrupt players are free to be attacked by anyone.
    That they are, because they're effectively mobs. But corrupted are not flagged and flagged are not corrupted.

    I definitely expect most greens to attack any and all PKers as soon as they see them, cause that's a juicy loot piñata.
  • LadyZelLadyZel Member
    edited July 2023
    Noaani wrote: »
    LadyZel wrote: »
    I really don’t understand why we can’t just manually flag.

    I feel like it’s fair to run around as a combatant to show that I’m down for some pvps, in exchange for reduced death penalties.

    Greens can tell that maybe they should be more concerned about me, purples know that I’m down for a scuffle. Win win.

    I would keep the force attack method too.

    My guess is manual flagging would turn out like NW where most people don't bother flagging for pvp at all.

    Apparently, everyone loves open world pvp, but when given a choice, the majority choose not to engage.

    Yeah, it's funny how this is the case.

    People love the idea of PvP, they love PvP when they want it (this is me), but most people primarily just want to get on doing the thing they want to be doing.

    Yes, and there are people still begging for a pvp zone in NW. As I see it, a pvp zone in that game would be a dead zone after the initial buzz had died.

    Pure pvpers love the idea of always-on pvp because that's their primary drive, but I feel most people prefer motive and purpose behind pvp, other than a blood thirsty desire to kill everything controlled by a real pulse.

    In Ashes, I would hope, as a green player, pvpers would see that I'm not worth bothering with and go and seek bigger fish.

    Basically, like the real world. I will be aware of the danger, but on the whole, feel safe most of the time, unless I also wish to engage in pvp.

    Even in NW, in the throes of battle in OPR pvp, I've encountered players that will stop attacking or not attack at all when they see I'm not willing to engage, for whatever reason.

    I've also had players chase me down like an animal across the map, knowing full well I was weaker, just for the kill.

    Pvp with honour and self-control, especially if pvp is on by default, is a great feeling. Knowing someone could attack/kill you at any time, but chooses not to because the gains aren't worth it, is the height of maturity and earns my total respect.

    If pvp in Ashes turns out to be like this, a mixture of strategy, tactic, and restraint where appropriate, it would definitely pull me in because I'd feel like I could enjoy the pve, but still be part of the rush of pvp, too.
    "A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities." —J.R.R. Tolkien
  • HumblePuffinHumblePuffin Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    LadyZel wrote: »
    I really don’t understand why we can’t just manually flag.

    I feel like it’s fair to run around as a combatant to show that I’m down for some pvps, in exchange for reduced death penalties.

    Greens can tell that maybe they should be more concerned about me, purples know that I’m down for a scuffle. Win win.

    I would keep the force attack method too.

    My guess is manual flagging would turn out like NW where most people don't bother flagging for pvp at all.

    Apparently, everyone loves open world pvp, but when given a choice, the majority choose not to engage.

    Yeah “don’t understand” was a bit of an exaggeration. I’ve spiraled down this curiosity before. I really mean “I personally believe that being able to manually flag, while also allowing you to still attack unflagged players will promote more consensual pvp, while potentially further limiting the amount of non consensual pvp”.

    As in previous times this discussion has come up, Noaani is correct though that it would most likely create a mentality that would further limit how often people do go corrupted, and/or artificially segment the player base

    I didn’t play much NW but if I’m remembering correctly its flagging system works like WoW does now where you can only engaged with other flagged people correct?

    At the time WoW was moving away from PvP servers and switching all servers to the flagged version, I brought up many points about how this exact thing would happen. I was of course told things like “no way there’s like this minor benefit to flagging, people will totally still do it”

    WoWs owpvp was already pretty meaningless, and when you tack on the minuscule benefits of flagging up, with a player base that already leaned towards owpvp adverse due to straight up trauma the faction style no consequence pvp could cause, with the negative of putting a target on your back, very few were gonna flag up.

    Flagged consensual only PvP builds bad owpvp habits when you’re surrounded by people that don’t want to be put at a disadvantage. People will then tend to only flag up when they feel like they have an advantage more often than not, and you don’t want to flag up so you’re not at a disadvantage, and then no one flags up.
  • Honestly, I feel like you should gain corruption for even attacking a green player. Albeit a small amount. I can see people who don't mind playing as combatants just attacking greens because they think it's funny, or to annoy them & to bait them into fighting back.

    what if i know you will attack me first because you have been griefing me for a while and maybe killed me a couple of times, then I attack you first to see if i can win the fight this time. now, I gain corruption, now im red and you can cc me but i cant cc you. you hit back stun me and kill me. I drop all my gear because of the tiny bit of corruption that you are suggesting.

    do you think this is fair? great idea genius.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Depraved wrote: »
    Honestly, I feel like you should gain corruption for even attacking a green player. Albeit a small amount. I can see people who don't mind playing as combatants just attacking greens because they think it's funny, or to annoy them & to bait them into fighting back.

    what if i know you will attack me first because you have been griefing me for a while and maybe killed me a couple of times, then I attack you first to see if i can win the fight this time. now, I gain corruption, now im red and you can cc me but i cant cc you. you hit back stun me and kill me. I drop all my gear because of the tiny bit of corruption that you are suggesting.

    do you think this is fair? great idea genius.
    First of all, yeah, corruption on attack shouldn't be a thing.

    That said, if you are going to give a scenario, think it through better.

    If someone had attacked you a couple of times in this scenario, they would have corruption. If you think that you gaining corruption would result in you being killed and dropping all your gear, wouldn't that have happened to that other player first?

    Again, not saying it's a good idea, but your scenario here doesn't work.
  • PercimesPercimes Member
    edited July 2023
    90 seconds is both long and short. I wonder... Could it be one of the factor that lead to the open sea the become an always combatant zone?

    I can easily imagine a chain of adjustments where it became the chosen option. Internal testing of naval combat showed that to be interesting, a bigger ocean was required for ships to manoeuvre. With more space players would de-flag too easily or too frequently in naval battle and it was messing something with CC immunity or naval skills. To keep the de-flag timer consistent, it was decided instead to make the open sea a "purple zone". Upping the risks lead to upping the rewards.

    I repeat, just one way I imagine the reasoning. Everything completely pulled out of my a... well, you know how the saying goes.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • How long the corruption lasts?
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