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Loss and Limitations and Scarcity and why they are good

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Comments

  • Zipp_AdoudelZipp_Adoudel Member, Alpha Two
    Are you guys upset that casuals and most players will never get flying mounts? Are you up in arms that casuals will not get guild perks unless they join a guild? I'm making the assumption that they wouldn't be able to level up the guild enough to matter.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Zipp_Adoudel wrote: »
    At the end of the day, you can cry wolf and complain that casuals cant do everything. Giving everyone a trophy just because they log in doesnt make for a sustainable game.

    Oh god, you too with the strawman arguments. People aren't asking for that.

  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Nerror wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Nerror wrote: »
    There is also farming and animal husbandry that are very unlikely to be able to be done to any great extent outside a freehold. A few potted tomato plants in an apartment isn't going to satisfy people who want to farm. And there are other businesses than a tavern obviously, selling goods and services, and from what it sounds like so far, I think the taverns and businesses are casual friendly to run, just not to acquire.
    Having a cow or just a few plants sounds exactly the kind of casual application of the, potentially, industrial-sized freehold operations.

    As for businesses and sales - stalls and shops. Iirc those can be accessed somewhat easily. And they could be considered the casual version of "providing services to other players", though still kinda different from taverns.

    That sounds like something for the ultra-ultra-casuals with maybe 10 minutes per day to play, including waiting for the game to lead. You don't breed "a cow". You don't farm 5 tomato plants, wipe the sweat off your brow and call it a hard, honest days work. ;)

    This is why I am advocating for something in the middle, like the old freehold sizes, or even smaller houses with a little land. Multi-tiered access, instead of all or nothing.
    NiKr wrote: »
    Nerror wrote: »
    Finally, we still need some confirmation about the whole journeyman/lvl 30 thing Steven was talking about. If it really ends up being so you can only do up to lvl 30 processing stuff in nodes, that just makes it worse. In Eve Online, the T1 stuff is still very useful late-game because of the cost-efficiency, accessibility or niche applications. I hope the low level stuff in Ashes is also very useful late-game.
    And L2 had uses for low tier mats and afaik SWG had that kind of design for their crafting system as well. So casuals could still make their relative profits w/o going up in tiers.

    It always comes down to ambitions and ability to meet them. As long as t3 processing in a node can take up 1-2h of gameplay - majority of casual processors should be ok with it.

    We'll have to see how low-level mats fit into it all. I hope they are important late-game. If not, casual processors will not be happy I am pretty sure.

    I'm gonna be obnoxiously arrogant here and point out that you're both having a conversation that is too speculative AND far enough below the level of concreteness required for anything that you're wasting your own time.

    The OP gave a layman's argument for a part of the game they don't even consider important and ended up causing you to operate on the same level in discussion. We've got better things to do in like 10m, namely arguing over how poorly/amazingly the Cleric is implemented.

    I personally hope that loss of HP, limitations via debuffs, and scarcity of Mana are all key points.

    You know what, I think you're right :D
  • Zipp_AdoudelZipp_Adoudel Member, Alpha Two
    Nerror wrote: »
    Zipp_Adoudel wrote: »
    At the end of the day, you can cry wolf and complain that casuals cant do everything. Giving everyone a trophy just because they log in doesnt make for a sustainable game.

    Oh god, you too with the strawman arguments. People aren't asking for that.

    I dont think that means what you think it means.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Nerror wrote: »
    That sounds like something for the ultra-ultra-casuals with maybe 10 minutes per day to play, including waiting for the game to lead. You don't breed "a cow". You don't farm 5 tomato plants, wipe the sweat off your brow and call it a hard, honest days work. ;)

    This is why I am advocating for something in the middle, like the old freehold sizes, or even smaller houses with a little land. Multi-tiered access, instead of all or nothing.
    I mean, as of right now, farming stuff will probably be done by npcs and through your phone app. No gameplay at all.

    They showed a few cows, piglets, goats and chickens. And that's on a freehold with 3 separate pens for animals. I feel like having a single instanced in-node pen that could fit maybe one of each of those animals or a couple couples, or any mix of those, would suffice for a "casual" processing experience.

    There's gotta be some gradation. If a casual can own a wholeass farm, then what should the FHers own?

    I do agree that the change to x3-sized FHs was not necessarily a good one. But I doubt that a 0.5acre freehold would hold much more than a single pen of animals with maybe a building on the side. And at that point you could've just done that at the node.

    Obviously this is an argument purely for the gameplay part of the processing and not the housing question of it all. But Steven obviously wants in-world housing to be real exclusive and valuable.
  • PercimesPercimes Member
    Hmm, it's been a while since people fought over semantic...

    I don't think it's appropriate to call freeholds trophies. A trophy's only purposes are to quietly gather dust on a shelf and to stir your nostalgic fiber of the time you did "a thing."

    Freeholds have too many practical uses to be deemed trophies. They're infrastructure assets.

    It had to be said. Well, I needed to say it.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Zipp_Adoudel wrote: »
    Are you guys upset that casuals and most players will never get flying mounts? Are you up in arms that casuals will not get guild perks unless they join a guild? I'm making the assumption that they wouldn't be able to level up the guild enough to matter.

    Casual does not mean solo. Casuals will level up guilds too, just slower. There's no arbitrary gating of guild levels. And no, not having access to a flying mount doesn't mean no access to any real content.
    Zipp_Adoudel wrote: »
    Nerror wrote: »
    Zipp_Adoudel wrote: »
    At the end of the day, you can cry wolf and complain that casuals cant do everything. Giving everyone a trophy just because they log in doesnt make for a sustainable game.

    Oh god, you too with the strawman arguments. People aren't asking for that.

    I dont think that means what you think it means.

    Let me help you understand then: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
    A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction.

    Thats what you are doing with your "Giving everyone a trophy just because they log in doesnt make for a sustainable game." argument.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Percimes wrote: »
    Hmm, it's been a while since people fought over semantic...
    Yeah... like... a whole day or smth :D
    Azherae wrote: »
    I'm gonna be obnoxiously arrogant here and point out that you're both having a conversation that is too speculative AND far enough below the level of concreteness required for anything that you're wasting your own time.
    iwktbrm9r8f9.gif
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Zipp_Adoudel wrote: »
    The whole point of this is that loss and scarcity shouldn't push people away.
    This is true but there are considerations you are not taking in to account.

    The idea of playing an MMO is entertainment. Players will take the path of least resistance towards the end of entertainment - this is human nature.

    If the path of least resistance to the goal of entertainment is to play a different game, many will take that.

    The way I see Ashes right now, it is a game only for those that enjoy the struggle, or those in a personality based mega-guild (based around a popular streamer or some such).

    I dont see people in smaller guilds lasting long if they arent all about that struggle. I dont see large guilds not based around a singular personality lasting long regardless of if they are all about said struggle and I dont see individual players lasting long unless they are likewise struggle inclined.

    I would wager that every person on these forums that claims they cant wait to play Ashes is all about that struggle in regards to their entertainment.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Zipp_Adoudel wrote: »
    If you arent contributing to the MMO, why play the game.
    It seems like you are going to Ford and complaining that the f350 cant fly.
    If you build it; they will come?
    Everything players do in Ashes progresses a Node.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Zipp_Adoudel wrote: »
    Are you guys upset that casuals and most players will never get flying mounts? Are you up in arms that casuals will not get guild perks unless they join a guild? I'm making the assumption that they wouldn't be able to level up the guild enough to matter.
    What is stopping Casuals from getting a flying mount?

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Percimes wrote: »
    Hmm, it's been a while since people fought over semantic...

    I don't think it's appropriate to call freeholds trophies. A trophy's only purposes are to quietly gather dust on a shelf and to stir your nostalgic fiber of the time you did "a thing."

    Freeholds have too many practical uses to be deemed trophies. They're infrastructure assets.

    It had to be said. Well, I needed to say it.

    Trophies are things you get for doing content well.

    Freeholds are content.

    Anyone that thinks differently (including Steven) is just wrong.
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