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Does Ashes of Creation look generic?

VlhadusVlhadus Member, Alpha Two
Hello everyone, Vlhadus here. I recently made a video on my youtube channel responding to a statement Asmongold made about the art direction in Ashes of Creation. If you saw his video on the newest cleric update you heard what he said at the end. While I personally disagree with his take on art direction, many people were echoing the same thing. Now, every streamer usually has an echo chamber but is there any reason to think that art will be the thing that will detract people from playing Ashes of Creation?


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Every time we see some kind of art from the team, its like a beautiful painting. I had this photo as my background on my computer for months. What I think is really the main thing people point to is Unreal Engine 5. UE5 was praised by many gamers and those gamers wanted the benchmark to be UE5 like. Now that we have been getting more from the engine, people seem to look at it with unenthusiastic eyes. Are we as gamers that fickle to be that unimpressed by graphics in 2023? Most gamers are playing games that are over a decade old. The engine supporting those MMORPGs can't offer what UE5 does but most of those games are very stylized in nature. The reason why many of those games were stylized is because realistic graphics just looked funky. Remember games back in the 2000s, heck even some games in the 2010s that tried to use realistic graphics for their games. Many of the engines were custom built back then and didn't have a huge scope. So what are people really complaining about when it comes to Ashes of Creation?



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I think people are just down bad right now. There isn't any fun games to play (I mean there are but chances are you already played them and beat them) and people are in doomer mode. I love watching Asmon because like him, I am a HUGE fan of the MMORPG genre and I want this genre to make a comeback. Would Ashes of Creation benefit from being more stylized? Maybe but it doesn't matter if content is lacking or its not fun. Most MMORPGs when they launch doesn't have an endgame or much pass a week of gameplay before people get bored. Intrepid knows this and I believe that is the reason why we aren't in the alpha 2 right now. Content is king... I know it, you know it, everybody knows it. So, what would Intrepid gain from redesigning everything to be more stylized? Other than making the Ashes community and the overall MMO community wait longer to play the game? It isn't worth it at this point. You either like it or you don't.


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In conclusion, I LOVE the art direction Intrepid took for Ashes of Creation. I can't wait to play this game, I can't wait for alpha 2, I can't wait to make my character. Just curious, is it just me or do some of you feel the same Asmon feels about the art style. I would love to know what people think on this subject and thanks so much for taking the time to read out my post. If you are interested in watching my video, a link is in the community media in the Ashes of Creation discord. Thanks!
www.youtube.com/vlhadusgaming
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Comments

  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2023
    It's not really a distinct art style where you immediately recognise the game from a picture of the world. WoW is very easy to recognise, and Guild Wars 2 is a masterpiece I think, when it comes to that. The store cosmetics are also kind of all over the place I think. It's obvious they didn't have an art director with a clear vision from the start, who made sure everything was distinctly Ashes.

    The game was really good looking in A1 in UE4, and I am sure it's great in UE5 as well. Even the 4K videos don't really do it justice compared to actually being in the game. Especially on a decent monitor.

    They have clearly already done some work getting the character and creature models more stylized and themed, and I think that's great. I don't expect them to redo all the cosmetics and art to be on the level of cohesion of GW2, for example, nor would I want them to do it because I am sure that will take a lot of time. But I hope all the new assets from here on out are made with a specific art style in mind. Then maybe after release they can slowly turn all the old stuff into that same theme.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Asmon's take was partly silly because he compared a general location with some normal mobs to, in his own words, best dungeons of their respective games. We've yet to see "best location in Ashes".

    I do agree that that any game that's going for "realism" will feel generic, when compared to smth like WoW or mb Wildstar, which have cartoony graphics and have to be super stylized to look good.

    Ashes tries to stand out with rainbow effects on abilities and in some locations, and there's also the corruption spots, but overall the design so far has just been "looks like a great irl place". Visual fidelity is high because the engine is great for that, but I do agree that there's not much uniqueness in those visuals.
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I don't know why anyone listens to asmon... He looks like a skaven... Can't be trusted.
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mechanics and Function > Art

    The incorporates a lot of realism into its style and it looks good.



  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Asmon's take was partly silly because he compared a general location with some normal mobs to, in his own words, best dungeons of their respective games. We've yet to see "best location in Ashes".

    I do agree that that any game that's going for "realism" will feel generic, when compared to smth like WoW or mb Wildstar, which have cartoony graphics and have to be super stylized to look good.

    Ashes tries to stand out with rainbow effects on abilities and in some locations, and there's also the corruption spots, but overall the design so far has just been "looks like a great irl place". Visual fidelity is high because the engine is great for that, but I do agree that there's not much uniqueness in those visuals.

    Agreed, random area that is not meant to stand out isn't going to be memorable on its own (things could lead tot hat based on player experiences).

    Though he is talking about epic scenes i think it is silly to assume every stream is going to have some epic focal point. If asmongold is going to make the point he should atleast contrast it to more interesting locations they have shown mainly the tower of Carphin.

    Honestly it just comes down to nostalgia and him thinking things need to be like WoW. When AoC is finished with their different dungeons and their great at team, I'm sure there will be plenty of great locations akin or even greater to the tower of Carphin.
  • Didn't Asmon also say something to the effect of "There are two kinds of graphics, good enough and not good enough - and this is good enough." ?

    While I may agree that the art style isn't especially distinct, everything looks "good enough" at worst and sometimes extremely beautiful and immersive. I thought everything in the Cleric showcase looked great. Will it look as great in 20 years when we have exponentially better realistic graphics? Probably not; stylized lasts longer (Wind Waker still looks fine and other games from that era look horrible), but it's more than good enough for now and I don't think it will age as ungracefully as previous attempts at realistic styles in MMOs. Art won't be the selling point for Ashes, but I don't think it'll turn anyone but the most artistically sensitive off from playing.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Didn't Asmon also say something to the effect of "There are two kinds of graphics, good enough and not good enough - and this is good enough." ?

    While I may agree that the art style isn't especially distinct, everything looks "good enough" at worst and sometimes extremely beautiful and immersive. I thought everything in the Cleric showcase looked great. Will it look as great in 20 years when we have exponentially better realistic graphics? Probably not; stylized lasts longer (Wind Waker still looks fine and other games from that era look horrible), but it's more than good enough for now and I don't think it will age as ungracefully as previous attempts at realistic styles in MMOs. Art won't be the selling point for Ashes, but I don't think it'll turn anyone but the most artistically sensitive off from playing.

    Wind waker looks bad to me, elden ring looks better 10000000000/ infinity imo.
  • VyrilVyril Member, Alpha Two
    I don't know why anyone listens to asmon... He looks like a skaven... Can't be trusted.

    I don't mind Asmon on certain content, but his MMO takes are bad. Specifically about Ashes, and it's because Ashes isn't like ANY game he's ever played.

    Is he completely wrong on the game world isn't distinguishable(yet)? No, but will it matter when you are enjoying the systems and gameplay? Not likely.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Thankfully yes, it looks generic.

    Will it prevent people from playing...?

    I would think that generally people who'd be turned off by it's generic nature enough to not play, given the game's other appeal, wouldn't have stayed too long anyway.

    It's more important to have visuals that stick in the memory than to be 'generic' or 'not generic', and their art and design team are very good at the 'visuals that stick in memory' part, theoretically.

    I say theoretically because we've seen a lot of areas designed with 'PvP MMO player flow' in mind, and it's not the visuals that stick for that, it requires a different design structure, hopefully they get the freedom to implement it or we get to see it soon.
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  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2023
    Nerror wrote: »
    WoW is very easy to recognise, and Guild Wars 2 is a masterpiece I think, when it comes to that.

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    After people play AoC for +15 years you will look at a rock and immediately recognize it as well, that's about it
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  • VyrilVyril Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 2023
    Take for example Palia.

    During their live stream chat spammed, Fortnite / Wildstar, and now the new Wayfinders.

    Any of the Anime games, Genshin, Honkai, Blue Protocol.

    Eventually things just start blending together.
  • AbaratAbarat Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Nerror wrote: »
    The store cosmetics are also kind of all over the place I think. It's obvious they didn't have an art director with a clear vision from the start, who made sure everything was distinctly Ashes.

    I strongly disagree with this.

    The reason, in my opinion, the cosmetics look like they are "all over the place" is that the cosmetics are made from artwork from all of the various biomes and race influences. In the Asmongold video, he talks specifically about how games like New World are BAD because as you travel around the world all the destinations look the same. Verra will have distinct looking nodes/towns which will be identifiable.

    I do somewhat agree that it does not have the distinct art style that would be identifiable at a glance from a screenshot, but, then again, we have seen such a small part of the world, so it even feels premature to say that.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I rarely watch Asmongold but... someone mentioned how people in his chat were reacting to the Cleric update, so I did check that one out.

    I think he has a point...
    One of my more recent concerns about the current MMOs/MMORPGs currently in development is that many of them are using UE5 and UE5 easily results in a game that looks beautiful. They are worlds we would want to explore and live in - theoretically. But then, that doesn't tell us much about the fun of the gameplay.

    Some people in the chat were saying that everything looks fairly standard, visually, for UE4/UE5.
    I also recently saw that the "devs" for Dreamworld basically just bought a bunch of UE4 asset packs and chucked them all into the game - which kinda looked OK, but... there was no real gameplay.
    Also reminds me that Steven originally was thinking Ashes could release within 3 years because of how easy it was to create great looking demos so quickly.

    Someone in the chat also mentioned that the locations in Apocalypse were more memorable than the locations we've seen in the recent Livestream vids. I kinda agree with that.

    That being said... it's still Alpha. We don't know how much will change by the time Alpha 2 drops.
    Also... there has been an emphasis on "European" style locations.
    Might seem quite different when areas are influenced by Vek, Py'Rai and Nikua cultures.
  • ChicagoChicago Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think the art its self is beautiful but generic? Definitley, ashes needs its own art style badly, it looks to much like earth and not vera
  • FantmxFantmx Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Sure as shit does not look generic. Some of the oddball designs they put out drive me crazy because they are too off the wall for me, even in high fantasy.
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  • ChicagoChicago Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    I rarely watch Asmongold but... someone mentioned how people in his chat were reacting to the Cleric update, so I did check that one out.

    I think he has a point...
    One of my more recent concerns about the current MMOs/MMORPGs currently in development is that many of them are using UE5 and UE5 easily results in a game that looks beautiful. They are worlds we would want to explore and live in - theoretically. But then, that doesn't tell us much about the fun of the gameplay.

    Some people in the chat were saying that everything looks fairly standard, visually, for UE4/UE5.
    I also recently saw that the "devs" for Dreamworld basically just bought a bunch of UE4 asset packs and chucked them all into the game - which kinda looked OK, but... there was no real gameplay.
    Also reminds me that Steven originally was thinking Ashes could release within 3 years because of how easy it was to create great looking demos so quickly.

    Someone in the chat also mentioned that the locations in Apocalypse were more memorable than the locations we've seen in the recent Livestream vids. I kinda agree with that.

    That being said... it's still Alpha. We don't know how much will change by the time Alpha 2 drops.
    Also... there has been an emphasis on "European" style locations.
    Might seem quite different when areas are influenced by Vek, Py'Rai and Nikua cultures.

    You are not wrong here mate, its really hard to judge because there are so many unknowns, for example when i see how they bring the cosmetics to life and what they have done with weathering systems and gathering collisions, i am amazed its top notch but as for the world its self, it may be because we just see the riverlands over and over but to me it looks super generic and sort of dull in the sense it doesnt feel very fantasy like and as you said skims can be copy and pasted without its own art style being developed, for example wow classic graphics stand the test of time not due to the graphics but the art, the same with guild wars, anarchy online, final fantasy, you can instantly tell what games these are from a 5 second youtube clip and something about that stands out to me, i am not sure if it was apoc cause i havnt seen much gameplay but i have seen footage of aoc thats 3-4 years old pre A1 that looks better than what we have now so im not to sure what is happening,

    Another point id add is the extrwmley high spell effects almost look out of place in the world kf vera that ive seen so far, but again riverlands, lets see come A2
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The only reason anyone will think this is because it isn't stylized and cartoonish. The game looks beautiful and doesn't need to be some over the top artstyle to define it, let the gameplay and systems define it instead.
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  • As graphics continue to look more realistic, it’s only natural for games to slowly start all looking the same. Older graphics look different because they’re older and technology wasn’t advanced enough to run games with realistic graphics.

    Only thing I can say about this entire situation is to get used to it, as technology advances and graphics are able to keep pushing for more realism, games will all slowly look the same. What will differentiate between them are the worlds, the story, and the gameplay.

    Overall, this is a nonissue.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Fantmx wrote: »
    Sure as shit does not look generic. Some of the oddball designs they put out drive me crazy because they are too off the wall for me, even in high fantasy.
    Environment or cosmetics?
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2023
    Dolyem wrote: »
    The only reason anyone will think this is because it isn't stylized and cartoonish. The game looks beautiful and doesn't need to be some over the top artstyle to define it, let the gameplay and systems define it instead.
    Asmongold's point is that Ashes looks pretty much the same as other UE5 MMOs currently in development.
    They all look equally beautiful - because that is easily accomplished with UE5 tools.

    Of course... once a server has a few Metros... locations could appear quite unique and memorable.
    Even comparing server to server - let alone comparing game to game.
  • 1.Instant Recognition: Generic graphics often rely on archetypal character designs, environments, and objects that players have encountered in various media. As a result, players can quickly identify specific character roles, setting types, or plot devices. This instant recognition helps them understand the underlying narrative and gameplay elements, enhancing their overall engagement with the game.

    2.Emotional Triggers: Generic graphics can tap into familiar visual cues, evoking emotions associated with certain tropes or cliches. For instance, a dark and foreboding castle elicits feelings of suspense and mystery, while a bright and colorful meadow may evoke a sense of joy and tranquility. These emotional triggers create a deeper connection between the player and the game world.

    3.Nostalgia and Comfort: Generic graphics can evoke feelings of nostalgia, especially for players who grew up with classic games that employed similar visual styles. The nostalgia factor fosters a sense of comfort and familiarity, making players feel more at home in the MMO's world. This emotional connection encourages long-term player retention.

    4.Streamlined Storytelling: Generic graphics can enable developers to streamline storytelling by relying on established tropes and cliches that players easily comprehend. This simplicity helps avoid unnecessary exposition and allows the narrative to unfold more smoothly. Players can anticipate certain plot twists or character arcs, enhancing their investment in the unfolding story.

    5.Expanded Player Creativity: When using generic graphics, players may be more inclined to fill in the gaps with their imagination, augmenting the game world with their interpretations. This increased creativity allows players to develop deeper personal connections with the virtual world and its characters.

    6.Universal Appeal: Generic graphics often have a universal appeal that transcends cultural and linguistic barriers. The visual simplicity and familiar tropes make the MMO accessible to a global audience, allowing players from different backgrounds to connect and share their experiences.

    7.Parody and Satire: Generic graphics lend themselves well to parody and satire. Game developers can use recognizable visual elements to humorously subvert traditional tropes or cliches, adding a layer of wit and amusement to the game.
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 2023
    NiKr wrote: »
    Asmon's take was partly silly because he compared a general location with some normal mobs to, in his own words, best dungeons of their respective games. We've yet to see "best location in Ashes".

    I do agree that that any game that's going for "realism" will feel generic, when compared to smth like WoW or mb Wildstar, which have cartoony graphics and have to be super stylized to look good.

    Ashes tries to stand out with rainbow effects on abilities and in some locations, and there's also the corruption spots, but overall the design so far has just been "looks like a great irl place". Visual fidelity is high because the engine is great for that, but I do agree that there's not much uniqueness in those visuals.

    I still don't understand why anyone would take any gaming streamers take as a leading opinion. These people literally get paid to skim through more games than anyone else. Of course more games will look "generic" to them, games are primarily mediums for work & tools to earning money to them. What is generic to them is eye opening, jaw dropping beauty to someone with a limited budget and who doesn't get to go through games at any pace close to theirs. So to me it really is a matter of perspective: For whom do you make your game?

    And Steven has been on record regarding this in the Environment Update:
    "You can have a great game that has very little compelling immersive qualities and finely made art. But if you have a game that has great systems and lives alongside with this incredibly immerisive atmosphere and zones from which you get to play in you get the best of both worlds. Graphics don't make a game fun, systems make games fun but graphics make those systems far more enjoyable."

    I think expecting Ashes to try and develop a "unique" artstyle beyond what they are desingning to be unique features of their world (like the Others and other races) at this point is just not understanding the studios focus or being a bit over the top critical. Ashes doesn't have to be the game to end all games on every metric possible and it doesn't aim for that.

    I think the current project looks well enough to be highly immersive, the locations look unique enough and the overall style of the races is also distinct to the point where I don't worry about the game not being recognized. And for those who always want the best graphics: BDO is already out and Chrono Odyssey (if not a fake) will be visually exactly down you aisle.
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  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    I think it looks fantastic. They're very very good at what they do!
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 2023
    Kilion wrote: »
    I still don't understand why anyone would take any gaming streamers take as a leading opinion.
    It's usually about the overall picture of any given streamer. They all have their bubbles and echo chambers. Some streamers have huge bubbles. Asmon is one of those. And those bubbles then represent a general feeling of a particular audience of people. Asmon's audience is the wowheads in the late 20s-mid30s+, who could potentially be the target audience for Ashes.

    So when Asmon gives a certain take on Ashes and 80% of the chat goes "TRUE AND REAL!", you can get a general feeling about the opinion of similarly-minded players.

    Obviously I'm not saying Intrepid should only listen to Asmon or his audience. Fuck that. But know the opinion "from the other side" of the gaming spectrum is important. Because, at the very least, it can lead to reinspecting the current designs and maybe seeing a better approach to it, while not changing it completely.

    Kilion wrote: »
    I think expecting Ashes to try and develop a "unique" artstyle beyond what they are desingning to be unique features of their world (like the Others and other races) at this point is just not understanding what the studios focus or being a bit over the top critical. Ashes doesn't have to be the game to end all games on every metric possible and it doesn't aim for that.
    And I agree. Like I said, we've yet to see the best locations Ashes has to offer. Seeing a Dunir metro would most likely be quite memorable. And I can't even imagine how the underworld will look, with all the tulnarian stuff. Well, I kinda can right now, cause I feel like it's gonna be a rainbow gradient on everything, but I do hope that we'll see more than that.
  • SathragoSathrago Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 2023
    it felt odd hearing asmongold call the game generic after they showed off the LIVING BRIDGE OF MOVING BLOOD at the tower of Karthan. maybe he doesnt remember that but i sure do.
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  • CawwCaww Member, Alpha Two
    so far it looks good enough to game in but not sure I'm gonna be staring at stuff just because it is so beautiful
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    Sathrago wrote: »
    it felt odd hearing asmongold call the game generic after they showed off the LIVING BRIDGE OF MOVING BLOOD at the tower of Karthan. maybe he doesnt remember that but i sure do.

    Say something provocative, and people talk about you. Gives him extra advertising just from one simple comment that he may not even agree with himself.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • Don't really know what 'generic' real means.

    But AoC looks good enough to me.

    What it lacks might be its own style to make people immediately knows it's the AoC art style.

    Like you can tell it's a ghibli new anime or a JOJO new manga by the first look.
    A casual follower from TW.
  • We haven't seen much in-game renditions of the cultural structures so far, old ruins from the time before the return mostly. A Vek or Ren'Kai village will bring personality to the world. So will a Py'Rian or Dünir encampment. And all the other races cultural houses, furniture, etc.

    I'll reserve my judgement for later.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Obviously I'm not tell Intrepid to only listen to Asmon or his audience. Fuck that. But know the opinion "from the other side" of the gaming spectrum is important. Because, at the very least, it can lead to reinspecting the current designs and maybe seeing a better approach to it, while not changing it completely.
    Yeah, but also... the way Asmon said it... it was more like, "I think one of the challenges that Ashes has is that the areas don't look memorable compared to other UE5 MMORPGs."

    Asmon suggested adding some cultural atmosphere, like shattered windows or banners - broken pikes with Zombie or Minotaur heads. Some of that seems unlikely for Ashes, specifically, since the fall of that area would have thousands of years ago...
    But, we aren't even in Alpha 2 yet, so there's still time for more polish as the envronment team continues to work. We aren't seeing the final rendition of that space.

    He wasn't saying that Ashes looks like shit.
    He simply said that location doesn't look very memorable compared to other UE5 environments.
    That it looks fairly generic for a UE5 space.
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