i think people should be able to leave their guild and have a game to play as well.
This is the key point of the issue.
To me, how I see the game, if you are not in a guild, you aren't going to have much of a game to play.
Everything in Ashes is competition based. Every time Steven talks about a new system, he adds in some convoluted means by which players will need to compete against each other, and guilds will always be on top of that.
Someone that is not in a guild should have an almost totally different game to someone that is in a top end guild - but they should still have a game to play, and that game should still be entertaining.
To be honest, I've been saying this same thing for months.
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RavicusMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
This is a reason for NPC guilds, to give tasks to lone players. Lets face it, there will be lone players regardless of game design. Some of them will be multi account bots, some will be people that are just anti social crafters trying to figure out a way in the game. When I say NPC guild I mean nothing special in rewards other than a generic title and possible quests for crafting tools and such. Nothing over T3.
If you are in a guild and things are working just fine, and then you feel the need to leave the guild for what ever reason, if you are then restricted to T3, you have no game left to play. At that point, you have surpassed all content you have access to.
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RavicusMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If you are in a guild and things are working just fine, and then you feel the need to leave the guild for what ever reason, if you are then restricted to T3, you have no game left to play. At that point, you have surpassed all content you have access to.
Those are your words not mine. And your assumption on others gameplay. Why dismiss what you do not know out of hand other than just being contrary? You use lotsd of if's in your statements, and last time I checked if's are not facts, they are assumptions.
If you are in a guild and things are working just fine, and then you feel the need to leave the guild for what ever reason, if you are then restricted to T3, you have no game left to play. At that point, you have surpassed all content you have access to.
Those are your words not mine. And your assumption on others gameplay. Why dismiss what you do not know out of hand other than just being contrary? You use lotsd of if's in your statements, and last time I checked if's are not facts, they are assumptions.
Yes, they are my words, not yours. That is why I typed them and you didn't. That is why they are in my post and not yours.
You say I'm dismissing things I don't know, yet you are dismissing the concerns I have based on things you don't know.
You are assuming people that have access to T5 everything will be happy if they now only have access to T3, I am assuming they won't.
You don't get to make that assumption and tell me to not make mine. You can make assumptions, thats fine - just don't tell others that they can't if you do.
If you go back through this thread, you will see MANY times where I have said things like "to me", or "how I see the game", making it abundantly clear that I am talking about a few assumptions and my opinions based on them.
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RavicusMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If you are in a guild and things are working just fine, and then you feel the need to leave the guild for what ever reason, if you are then restricted to T3, you have no game left to play. At that point, you have surpassed all content you have access to.
Those are your words not mine. And your assumption on others gameplay. Why dismiss what you do not know out of hand other than just being contrary? You use lotsd of if's in your statements, and last time I checked if's are not facts, they are assumptions.
Yes, they are my words, not yours. That is why I typed them and you didn't. That is why they are in my post and not yours.
You say I'm dismissing things I don't know, yet you are dismissing the concerns I have based on things you don't know.
You are assuming people that have access to T5 everything will be happy if they now only have access to T3, I am assuming they won't.
You don't get to make that assumption and tell me to not make mine. You can make assumptions, thats fine - just don't tell others that they can't if you do.
If you go back through this thread, you will see MANY times where I have said things like "to me", or "how I see the game", making it abundantly clear that I am talking about a few assumptions and my opinions based on them.
Again, lots of blah blah blah, all these threads you post in end up going multiple pages of you replying to people saying that you are off kilter a bit. These forums are not all about you buddy.
Again, lots of blah blah blah, all these threads you post in end up going multiple pages of you replying to people saying that you are off kilter a bit. These forums are not all about you buddy.
You stated your opinion on what I said, I gave my opinion on what you said, you then said I shouldn't have my opinion, I pointed out that my opinion is as valid as yours, you replied with literally "blah blah blah".
Just a polite recap of this brief back and forth we have had, in case you forgot where we are at.
i think people should be able to leave their guild and have a game to play as well.
This is the key point of the issue.
To me, how I see the game, if you are not in a guild, you aren't going to have much of a game to play.
Everything in Ashes is competition based. Every time Steven talks about a new system, he adds in some convoluted means by which players will need to compete against each other, and guilds will always be on top of that.
Someone that is not in a guild should have an almost totally different game to someone that is in a top end guild - but they should still have a game to play, and that game should still be entertaining.
To be honest, I've been saying this same thing for months.
id say its less of an issue than other games.
in other games where "you have a game to play", you actually dont. its not very obvious but ill explain. lets say you want raid drops and you can only get them by doing the raid. if you arent a player who enjoys or wants to raid, you dont have a game to play, because you need that gear to keep progressing. you cant go do somethign else and buy the gear. you are forced to do the raid. even if the raid is an instance and everybody in the server can do it at the same time, this might not be a game for you.
in aoc, you can have different progression paths and ways to acquire items. you can do the raid and get items. you can buy them, you can craft them. you arent forced a specific gameplay or path. you might be excluded from doing the raid if you arent in the right guild since you have to pvp for it, but you can also be excluded from raids in other games if you dont have the right class, the right gear or the right build. you might even do it with randoms in lfg and fail and you have no other way to get what you want, so you cant play or complete the game / challenge.
if i want pvp gear in wow to do open world pvp and not get one shotted, i have to do bg and then arenas, and then be good to climb and get the gear. so if i cant find the right players for my team, i cant get the gear. the same way you claim in ashes you shouldnt need to be in a strong guild to get the item you want or play the game, i can say that in other games is should need to find 2 other good players or a guild to do the arena and climb. what if you join a guild in wow and no one wants to do bg or arenas? you have to join a pvp guild, dont dyou? or pvx. same thing in ashes. the difference is, i dont need to join the top guild in ashes to get good gear because i can simply do one of the many activites in the game and buy it from someone.
If you are in a guild and things are working just fine, and then you feel the need to leave the guild for what ever reason, if you are then restricted to T3, you have no game left to play. At that point, you have surpassed all content you have access to.
you can still be a citizen of a max level node without being in a guild and you have access to t5 crafting. you can still have your freehold and do t5 processing, and even if you cant do t5 processing, you can buy the stuff from someone else by doing another activity and then do your t5 crafting.
you can also do one of the many things that dont need you to do t4 -t5 processing.
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RavicusMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If you are in a guild and things are working just fine, and then you feel the need to leave the guild for what ever reason, if you are then restricted to T3, you have no game left to play. At that point, you have surpassed all content you have access to.
you can still be a citizen of a max level node without being in a guild and you have access to t5 crafting. you can still have your freehold and do t5 processing, and even if you cant do t5 processing, you can buy the stuff from someone else by doing another activity and then do your t5 crafting.
you can also do one of the many things that dont need you to do t4 -t5 processing.
yes, I understand this, and that is a good thing. I was just suggesting basically for new players to join an NPC guild at the beginging to give basic crafting quests and such. Larger guilds can pick up new players from them then. Kind of like a starter area in a sense.
i think people should be able to leave their guild and have a game to play as well.
This is the key point of the issue.
To me, how I see the game, if you are not in a guild, you aren't going to have much of a game to play.
Everything in Ashes is competition based. Every time Steven talks about a new system, he adds in some convoluted means by which players will need to compete against each other, and guilds will always be on top of that.
Someone that is not in a guild should have an almost totally different game to someone that is in a top end guild - but they should still have a game to play, and that game should still be entertaining.
To be honest, I've been saying this same thing for months.
id say its less of an issue than other games.
in other games where "you have a game to play", you actually dont. its not very obvious but ill explain. lets say you want raid drops and you can only get them by doing the raid.
See, this isn't quite what I am talking about.
Not having access to all of the game if you are not in a guild is kind of expected. If you want access to raid drops, you get in a guild.
However, if you don't place self-imposed limits (wanting access to raid drops), you still have things you can do. Using WoW as an example, you can harvest, craft, quest etc, and you have access to the LFG and LFR systems (for better or worse). Literally the only thing in WoW you lose access to if you leave a top end guild is top end raiding.
And again, that is fine. If you are not in a guild, there should be aspects of the game you don't have access to - but there should still be a game for you to play.
If Ashes were just going to say "if you aren't in a guild, you probably won't be able to participate in naval content, but everything else is do-able", that would be fine. Being excluded from some content is absolutely expected (and in fact a good thing for the game).
The problem isn't being excluded from some content, the problem is in how much content is left.
you can also do one of the many things that dont need you to do t4 -t5 processing.
Which things is this?
Harvesting is subject to the land management system - there are people that will tell you what you can and can not harvest. Maybe not all the time, but the ssystem to do it will be in place.
Crafting is subject to the caravan system - there are people that will just take your stuff.
Solo PvP in the open world is pointless - you aren't fighting over anything.
Processing is obviously subject to the freehold system.
Naval content and what ever passes for top end PvE will directly require a guild.
Trying to get involved in node leadership without a guild behind you is probably a non-starter.
By my thinking, this leaves exactly two things people can do if they find themselves without a guild. The first is try to find pick up groups to run dungeons and such, and the second is travel around the world joining in on sieges.
This isn't much of a game.
Now, there are still quests in Ashes, including the social organization ones. However, we know very little about that so far, and if history is anything to go by, when we hear more about it, it will simply be another situation of Intrepid adding a convoluted system to the game in order to force competition where guilds will come out on top.
The stupid thing is - this is an issue that is completely Intrepids making. It is a situation that has been "solved" in every other game I have ever played. I spent almost 2 years in Archeage being the only person in my faction, let alone guild. I had so much to do that I literally couldn't keep up. I had to decide which of the things I wanted to do simply wouldn't get done so that I could - you know - sleep.
If you are in a guild and things are working just fine, and then you feel the need to leave the guild for what ever reason, if you are then restricted to T3, you have no game left to play. At that point, you have surpassed all content you have access to.
you can still be a citizen of a max level node without being in a guild and you have access to t5 crafting. you can still have your freehold and do t5 processing, and even if you cant do t5 processing, you can buy the stuff from someone else by doing another activity and then do your t5 crafting.
you can also do one of the many things that dont need you to do t4 -t5 processing.
yes, I understand this, and that is a good thing. I was just suggesting basically for new players to join an NPC guild at the beginging to give basic crafting quests and such. Larger guilds can pick up new players from them then. Kind of like a starter area in a sense.
As a system for people new to the game, the limit to tier 3 is fine. It then encourages people to get out and do the thing needed to get to tier 4 and 5.
i think people should be able to leave their guild and have a game to play as well.
This is the key point of the issue.
To me, how I see the game, if you are not in a guild, you aren't going to have much of a game to play.
Everything in Ashes is competition based. Every time Steven talks about a new system, he adds in some convoluted means by which players will need to compete against each other, and guilds will always be on top of that.
Someone that is not in a guild should have an almost totally different game to someone that is in a top end guild - but they should still have a game to play, and that game should still be entertaining.
To be honest, I've been saying this same thing for months.
id say its less of an issue than other games.
in other games where "you have a game to play", you actually dont. its not very obvious but ill explain. lets say you want raid drops and you can only get them by doing the raid.
See, this isn't quite what I am talking about.
Not having access to all of the game if you are not in a guild is kind of expected. If you want access to raid drops, you get in a guild.
However, if you don't place self-imposed limits (wanting access to raid drops), you still have things you can do. Using WoW as an example, you can harvest, craft, quest etc, and you have access to the LFG and LFR systems (for better or worse). Literally the only thing in WoW you lose access to if you leave a top end guild is top end raiding.
And again, that is fine. If you are not in a guild, there should be aspects of the game you don't have access to - but there should still be a game for you to play.
If Ashes were just going to say "if you aren't in a guild, you probably won't be able to participate in naval content, but everything else is do-able", that would be fine. Being excluded from some content is absolutely expected (and in fact a good thing for the game).
The problem isn't being excluded from some content, the problem is in how much content is left.
you can also do one of the many things that dont need you to do t4 -t5 processing.
Which things is this?
Harvesting is subject to the land management system - there are people that will tell you what you can and can not harvest. Maybe not all the time, but the ssystem to do it will be in place.
Crafting is subject to the caravan system - there are people that will just take your stuff.
Solo PvP in the open world is pointless - you aren't fighting over anything.
Processing is obviously subject to the freehold system.
Naval content and what ever passes for top end PvE will directly require a guild.
Trying to get involved in node leadership without a guild behind you is probably a non-starter.
By my thinking, this leaves exactly two things people can do if they find themselves without a guild. The first is try to find pick up groups to run dungeons and such, and the second is travel around the world joining in on sieges.
This isn't much of a game.
Now, there are still quests in Ashes, including the social organization ones. However, we know very little about that so far, and if history is anything to go by, when we hear more about it, it will simply be another situation of Intrepid adding a convoluted system to the game in order to force competition where guilds will come out on top.
The stupid thing is - this is an issue that is completely Intrepids making. It is a situation that has been "solved" in every other game I have ever played. I spent almost 2 years in Archeage being the only person in my faction, let alone guild. I had so much to do that I literally couldn't keep up. I had to decide which of the things I wanted to do simply wouldn't get done so that I could - you know - sleep.
well, ive been in top guilds in other games, and at some point i wasnt playing the game, because i was able to get everything i could by myself, and they werent interested in doing the easy raids, or even the hard ones, because they had already got everything. and these are games where you dont have to pvp to do the raids, they are purely cooperative. you just go into the instance and do it.
even in one of those games, i wasnt able to do the top dungeon on a fresh server. i was in the dominating guild of the server, but everybody had come from a different server and they all had their premade groups.
i found myself sitting there everyday looking for people outside my guild to do content, because i was already maxed out at what you could get soloing, and i could rarely if ever do the top content. and it wasnt because i had to pvp for it, it was because everyone already was past that point or they already had their premade groups. in one of those games i was a tank with top gear (except for the very best one where you need to do the dungeon im talking about).
the only way i could have probably done the content, would have been by leaving the top guilds and join a noobs, unorganized guild, wait for them for a couple of months to catch up, and then try to do the content. so in a game where the content was available to everybody, i found myself just sitting there everyday for hours not playing the game.
whereas in l2, a game where you can literally block people from progressing (or accessing certain content) i always had something to do. sometimes i was the guy blocking others from acquiring what they wanted, and sometimes i was the one being blocked, but i could always get what i wanted by different means and in a reasonable amount of time, usually at the same time as people who were in the top guilds, on those occasions I wasn't in the top guilds, usually by trading. so i always had a game to play in a game where you can block others from playing and competition is hard, and this is the basis of your argument. ironic isnt it?
similar example in ragnarok. its a pve game that has castle sieges and arena/bg pvp. there wer bosses that i coudlnt do because the people i played with wasnt interested on them, but i could always get the loot by trading. sometimes i was in top guilds, sometimes i ran the top guild, and sometimes i was in noobs guilds, and i was always able to get everything. you dont have to pvp for bosses in ro, but there are still loot rules, its basically first come first serve, or whoever does the most damage gets the stuff, so there is some form of competition when doing bosses.
well, ive been in top guilds in other games, and at some point i wasnt playing the game, because i was able to get everything i could by myself, and they werent interested in doing the easy raids, or even the hard ones, because they had already got everything. and these are games where you dont have to pvp to do the raids, they are purely cooperative. you just go into the instance and do it.
That is another issue - developers not keeping up with players. It is no less of an issue, but it is a different issue.
whereas in l2, a game where you can literally block people from progressing (or accessing certain content) i always had something to do. sometimes i was the guy blocking others from acquiring what they wanted, and sometimes i was the one being blocked, but i could always get what i wanted by different means and in a reasonable amount of time, usually at the same time as people who were in the top guilds, on those occasions I wasn't in the top guilds, usually by trading. so i always had a game to play in a game where you can block others from playing and competition is hard, and this is the basis of your argument. ironic isnt it?
From what I can tell, L2 wasn't nearly as bad at this as what Ashes looks to me to be.
Was there any system built in to L2 (other than just PvP), where one player could tell you what you could or could not harvest?
i think people should be able to leave their guild and have a game to play as well.
This is the key point of the issue.
To me, how I see the game, if you are not in a guild, you aren't going to have much of a game to play.
Everything in Ashes is competition based. Every time Steven talks about a new system, he adds in some convoluted means by which players will need to compete against each other, and guilds will always be on top of that.
Someone that is not in a guild should have an almost totally different game to someone that is in a top end guild - but they should still have a game to play, and that game should still be entertaining.
To be honest, I've been saying this same thing for months.
id say its less of an issue than other games.
in other games where "you have a game to play", you actually dont. its not very obvious but ill explain. lets say you want raid drops and you can only get them by doing the raid.
See, this isn't quite what I am talking about.
Not having access to all of the game if you are not in a guild is kind of expected. If you want access to raid drops, you get in a guild.
However, if you don't place self-imposed limits (wanting access to raid drops), you still have things you can do. Using WoW as an example, you can harvest, craft, quest etc, and you have access to the LFG and LFR systems (for better or worse). Literally the only thing in WoW you lose access to if you leave a top end guild is top end raiding.
And again, that is fine. If you are not in a guild, there should be aspects of the game you don't have access to - but there should still be a game for you to play.
If Ashes were just going to say "if you aren't in a guild, you probably won't be able to participate in naval content, but everything else is do-able", that would be fine. Being excluded from some content is absolutely expected (and in fact a good thing for the game).
The problem isn't being excluded from some content, the problem is in how much content is left.
you can also do one of the many things that dont need you to do t4 -t5 processing.
Which things is this?
Harvesting is subject to the land management system - there are people that will tell you what you can and can not harvest. Maybe not all the time, but the ssystem to do it will be in place.
Crafting is subject to the caravan system - there are people that will just take your stuff.
Solo PvP in the open world is pointless - you aren't fighting over anything.
Processing is obviously subject to the freehold system.
Naval content and what ever passes for top end PvE will directly require a guild.
Trying to get involved in node leadership without a guild behind you is probably a non-starter.
By my thinking, this leaves exactly two things people can do if they find themselves without a guild. The first is try to find pick up groups to run dungeons and such, and the second is travel around the world joining in on sieges.
This isn't much of a game.
Now, there are still quests in Ashes, including the social organization ones. However, we know very little about that so far, and if history is anything to go by, when we hear more about it, it will simply be another situation of Intrepid adding a convoluted system to the game in order to force competition where guilds will come out on top.
The stupid thing is - this is an issue that is completely Intrepids making. It is a situation that has been "solved" in every other game I have ever played. I spent almost 2 years in Archeage being the only person in my faction, let alone guild. I had so much to do that I literally couldn't keep up. I had to decide which of the things I wanted to do simply wouldn't get done so that I could - you know - sleep.
harvesting - you can still harvest. people cant stop you, you can just harvest and ruin their land. also, you might not over harvest in a node, but you can move form node to node. you wont always have to pvp.
crafting - there are also people who will defend your stuff...losing your stuff depends on your social skills, not on actual mechanics or your pvp ability. you might be a very likeable person who helps others, so people might never attack you, or people would be willing to defend you. you might also just take less items to anothr node and craft, even if you have to make a few more trips.
solo pvp and group pvp. you fight for spots and resources which equals progression, and its incredibly fun.
you dont need a fh to get t4 and t5 goods. you can buy them, you can have your friend make them for you.
i cant talk much about naval content. maybe for bosses you will need a guild, but look at my previous post on my experience of not being able to do instanced content while being in top guilds. so again, you might lose the pvp agaisnt the boss, but you can buy the item. maybe you can even do it eventually if the top guild stops doing it. or you can do it if it spawns when they arent on.
there is also probably naval content you can do with your party or solo.
node leadership- not everybody is interested in being a node major. and probably the only one that can be helped by a guild is the economic node. the rest is a solo experience afaik.
you do the content to acquire something dont you? im assuming you do stuff for a reward, since you mentioned solo pvp ow is pointless because you dont get anything. so if you can acquire the reward in a different way, you dont need to bother doing the content. unless you wanna do it for the fun, but you probably dont since you want to do it for the reward. if you want to do it for the fun of doing it, then solo pvp isnt pointless because its fun, even if "you dont get anything" and you would be contradicting yourself.
well, ive been in top guilds in other games, and at some point i wasnt playing the game, because i was able to get everything i could by myself, and they werent interested in doing the easy raids, or even the hard ones, because they had already got everything. and these are games where you dont have to pvp to do the raids, they are purely cooperative. you just go into the instance and do it.
That is another issue - developers not keeping up with players. It is no less of an issue, but it is a different issue.
whereas in l2, a game where you can literally block people from progressing (or accessing certain content) i always had something to do. sometimes i was the guy blocking others from acquiring what they wanted, and sometimes i was the one being blocked, but i could always get what i wanted by different means and in a reasonable amount of time, usually at the same time as people who were in the top guilds, on those occasions I wasn't in the top guilds, usually by trading. so i always had a game to play in a game where you can block others from playing and competition is hard, and this is the basis of your argument. ironic isnt it?
From what I can tell, L2 wasn't nearly as bad at this as what Ashes looks to me to be.
Was there any system built in to L2 (other than just PvP), where one player could tell you what you could or could not harvest?
"harvesting" in l2 was different. you needed to make a character called fortune seeker, which was only available to dwarfs. its a warrior type class that later got revamped into a dagger / rogue type of class (less pwoerful than actual rogues tho).
to harvest, you would need to use a debuff on a mob. if the mob was much hgiher than you, the landing rate sucked, otherwise it was fine. then after the mob died, you had to use another skill to harvest it. also, i think othr fortune seekers could steal your harvest, but i dont remember exactly. then you would get materials (or recipes) to help you craft. the crafter was another dwarf.
you could get the materials in different areas, so if you coudlnt farm in the best area, you would go to a different one (imagine just farming somethign different in aoc). the recipes and item parts were a bit more limited on where you could find them, so you usually had to pvp for those, or be lucky to find an empty spot, or simply buy them from someone else.
you could also get some of those materials and recipes by simply killing mobs or doing some quests, however, that would take much much longer. spoiling (or harvesting with a fortune seeker) was the best option for the most part, aside from killing a boss and being lucky enough to get the item.
in aoc, people dont tell you what you can harvest or not. if i want to harvest anything, i dont care about the land management. thats someone elses problem. if they dont want me to harvest there, they can come pvp me. this is the equivalent of me having to pvp for a spoiling spot in l2.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
We'll have to see how the negative consequences of Land Management affects Gatherers.
What game are you talking about here that is mobile looking?
Baldur's Gate looks like a mobile game to me. Same with Lost Ark and Diablo. I personally can't stand the camera angle that way.
All this says to me is that you have some association of a specific camera angle with mobile games.
That isn't an overly accurate association to make.
Since you have just listed three very not mobile games that fit this association you have made, perhaps considering breaking that association.
No. We all preferences. That style isn't mine.
I mean, being wrong can be a preference, so sure, defining an entire platforms worth of games based on one view can be a preference.
I'm not saying it should be a style you like, just that calling that view "mobile looking" when you yourself can name three non-mobile games with it is just very much a "preference".
Your passive aggressive tone is also a preference LOL
I suspect he is using something like ChatGPT to try to sound like he is educated. just a working theory.
Steven has told us about his guild and how he used to play MMORPGs.
Including saying that he hopes gamers will not play Ashes as ruthlessly (and toxically) as he did L2 and ArcheAge.
This is an offhand comment that is pretty important. He is aware of potential issues.
From what I can tell, L2 wasn't nearly as bad at this as what Ashes looks to me to be.
honestly. what are you doing here? Go make the perfect game yourself. You are obviously a very gifted game developer. Even if you have not earned enough to fund the game yourself, with your keen insight, you should have no problem finding investors. Please just do it somewhere else.
Also, if you think comments like this are 'feedback', you are not as smart as you think you are.
If you are in a guild and things are working just fine, and then you feel the need to leave the guild for what ever reason, if you are then restricted to T3, you have no game left to play. At that point, you have surpassed all content you have access to.
I am super excited to see how comments like this age.
harvesting - you can still harvest. people cant stop you, you can just harvest and ruin their land. also, you might not over harvest in a node, but you can move form node to node. you wont always have to pvp.
The land management system is literally a system built so that players with influence can stop players without infliuence from harvesting.
While we don't have full details on it, we know it exists. The above is it's only actual purpose, so asthe functionality of it comes to light, we should assume it will be tweaked to serve that purpose (just as we don't know the details of the corruption system, but we know the purpose of it and so should assume it will be tweaked to serve that purpose).
If Steven came out and said they are dropping the notion of the land management system all together, then I would agree that harvesting then becomes a game system such a player could freely interact with.
in aoc, people dont tell you what you can harvest or not.
maybe apprehending or removing poachers that are over hunting a certain species could be helpful to the health of the land. Maybe the mayor puts out a request for players to try and get rid of invasive species that are plants- maybe they're overgrowing weed and it's stopping other valuable plants from growing.
To me, that is the developers literally saying some people will tell you that you can't harvest certain things, and some players will tell you to harvest specific things. In other words, Intrepid have said (imo) that there will indeed be players that can tell you want you can harvest or not.
If you are in a guild and things are working just fine, and then you feel the need to leave the guild for what ever reason, if you are then restricted to T3, you have no game left to play. At that point, you have surpassed all content you have access to.
I am super excited to see how comments like this age.
harvesting - you can still harvest. people cant stop you, you can just harvest and ruin their land. also, you might not over harvest in a node, but you can move form node to node. you wont always have to pvp.
The land management system is literally a system built so that players with influence can stop players without infliuence from harvesting.
While we don't have full details on it, we know it exists. The above is it's only actual purpose, so asthe functionality of it comes to light, we should assume it will be tweaked to serve that purpose (just as we don't know the details of the corruption system, but we know the purpose of it and so should assume it will be tweaked to serve that purpose).
If Steven came out and said they are dropping the notion of the land management system all together, then I would agree that harvesting then becomes a game system such a player could freely interact with.
in aoc, people dont tell you what you can harvest or not.
maybe apprehending or removing poachers that are over hunting a certain species could be helpful to the health of the land. Maybe the mayor puts out a request for players to try and get rid of invasive species that are plants- maybe they're overgrowing weed and it's stopping other valuable plants from growing.
To me, that is the developers literally saying some people will tell you that you can't harvest certain things, and some players will tell you to harvest specific things. In other words, Intrepid have said (imo) that there will indeed be players that can tell you want you can harvest or not.
i think you messed up the quotes and it looks like i said something i didnt xdd
you can still harvest things wether someone tells you to do it or not. if they wanna stop you, they will have to perma kill you and others...not gonna happen.
the land management system is automatic. you kill a lot of wolves, then more rabbits spawn and then they eat the crops, so people cant gather carrots. you kill too many rabbits, the wolves cant find food and move to another area, so now people cant get wolf skin. you harvest too many carrots, then rabbits dont have food and move to another area or die, then wolves move to another area or die.
afaik players cant affect that other than overgathering or pausing gathering.
afaik players cant affect that other than overgathering or pausing gathering.
Killing world bosses and activities on freeholds all impact this system.
Basically, the system is one where organized people can do as they will, and those less organized will suffer what they must.
The key thing to keep in mind here is that the entire idea of the land management system is pointless outside of this notion.
if you kill a world boss on someone elses node zoi, you are probably helping them with the happy node thingie. i forgot the name. so you could most likely be helping your enemies by doing that xD.
organized people can do as they will, and other organized people will fight them. where is the issue? if i saw you in the game and told you hey you can't cut down those trees, those are reserved for my node citizens, are you actually going to leave or pvp me? i cant stop you from cutting down the trees. even if i beat you in pvp, you could go to another area within the same node and cut down the trees.
"Basically, the system is one where organized people can do as they will, and those less organized will suffer what they must". this applies to pve games as well. how are you going to complete the instance if your group sucks and is disorganized?
if you kill a world boss on someone elses node zoi, you are probably helping them with the happy node thingie. i forgot the name. so you could most likely be helping your enemies by doing that xD.
No idea what it is you are talking about here, if you remember the name of the system you are talking about we can come back to it.
organized people can do as they will, and other organized people will fight them. where is the issue? if i saw you in the game and told you hey you can't cut down those trees, those are reserved for my node citizens, are you actually going to leave or pvp me? i cant stop you from cutting down the trees. even if i beat you in pvp, you could go to another area within the same node and cut down the trees.
If this is the way the system works when the game goes live, then the entire system was pointless to implement - the very conception of it is pointless.
The fact that the system is said to exist should tell us that there is a reason for it existing.
Now, you could argue as to what the reasons for it existing are, but I am going to assume that a system that only has the purpose of allowing players to limit the actions of other players will exist for the reason of allowing players to limit the actions of other players.
If you can come up with another reason for the land management system to exist, I'd like to hear it.
"Basically, the system is one where organized people can do as they will, and those less organized will suffer what they must". this applies to pve games as well. how are you going to complete the instance if your group sucks and is disorganized?
I've yet to play any PvE game (or PvP game, or PvX game) where players are given as much control over the activities of others as Ashes seems to have.
That is the problem.
If you don't see that as a problem, then cool - we have different opinions on things. If you think that is a good thing, there is no point in discussing it as we would then both have our opinions set as to whether a thing in the game is good or bad.
The only actual point of discussion we have is as to whether I am right or not with what I can see happening.
literally cant progress in a mmorpg without others past some point, that means others have full control over your progression...unless its one of those solo mmorpg. dont you need a raid to do a raid? what if no one wants to take you? you cant progress and you cant buy those items since the only way to get them is by doing the raid.
imagine if everybody in your guild from eq refused to do a raid you want to do or need? how are you going to do the raid? you would have to look for people outside your guild. what if no one wants to party you because they dont like you? how are you going to do content and progress?
not sure if you can buy raid drops at the market place but if you cant (because in some games you cant) how are you going to get the item?
we go back to the same thing. in ashes, you might not be able to do something but you can do something else and buy whatever you want. not every guild will be able to do everything at the same time. also, it might be possible to make really good money with t1 and t2 stuff and you might not even need to do t4 or t5, and that could actually be less money per hour, kind of like it is in nw. I guess we will just have to wait until a2 or release.
literally cant progress in a mmorpg without others past some point, that means others have full control over your progression...unless its one of those solo mmorpg. dont you need a raid to do a raid? what if no one wants to take you? you cant progress and you cant buy those items since the only way to get them is by doing the raid.
imagine if everybody in your guild from eq refused to do a raid you want to do or need? how are you going to do the raid? you would have to look for people outside your guild. what if no one wants to party you because they dont like you? how are you going to do content and progress?
not sure if you can buy raid drops at the market place but if you cant (because in some games you cant) how are you going to get the item?
we go back to the same thing. in ashes, you might not be able to do something but you can do something else and buy whatever you want. not every guild will be able to do everything at the same time. also, it might be possible to make really good money with t1 and t2 stuff and you might not even need to do t4 or t5, and that could actually be less money per hour, kind of like it is in nw. I guess we will just have to wait until a2 or release.
I'm not sure why you are so fixated on raiding as a comparison.
If my whole guild decides they aren't raiding any more, then we are no longer a raid guild.
The key thing is, we would then have other parts of the game we can play with no one stopping us - this is the part Ashes doesn't have, and is the part that I have an issue with.
so probably by killing a boss or completing story arcs on an enemy node zoi you are helping them.
You won't be killing a world boss by yourself. However, doing any content within the zone of influence of a given node will benefit that node.
As a system though, node policies are just one more of those cases where a few players are able to control many.
Are you starting to see a pattern with how the game is being designed? Everything is designed around giving a few people control over the many. While this is fine (good) for some situations, Ashes has it for far too much already, and we haven't even got details of many systems where that will no doubt be added to.
I think the goal of the land management system is to give players some control or agency over how the world behave on a longish time frame. What resources will spawn and how abondant they'll be. Influence if or what regional world event triggers. That sort of thing.
But ultimately yes, those who are better organized will have a stronger say in this system.
Comments
To me, how I see the game, if you are not in a guild, you aren't going to have much of a game to play.
Everything in Ashes is competition based. Every time Steven talks about a new system, he adds in some convoluted means by which players will need to compete against each other, and guilds will always be on top of that.
Someone that is not in a guild should have an almost totally different game to someone that is in a top end guild - but they should still have a game to play, and that game should still be entertaining.
To be honest, I've been saying this same thing for months.
If you are in a guild and things are working just fine, and then you feel the need to leave the guild for what ever reason, if you are then restricted to T3, you have no game left to play. At that point, you have surpassed all content you have access to.
Those are your words not mine. And your assumption on others gameplay. Why dismiss what you do not know out of hand other than just being contrary? You use lotsd of if's in your statements, and last time I checked if's are not facts, they are assumptions.
You say I'm dismissing things I don't know, yet you are dismissing the concerns I have based on things you don't know.
You are assuming people that have access to T5 everything will be happy if they now only have access to T3, I am assuming they won't.
You don't get to make that assumption and tell me to not make mine. You can make assumptions, thats fine - just don't tell others that they can't if you do.
If you go back through this thread, you will see MANY times where I have said things like "to me", or "how I see the game", making it abundantly clear that I am talking about a few assumptions and my opinions based on them.
Again, lots of blah blah blah, all these threads you post in end up going multiple pages of you replying to people saying that you are off kilter a bit. These forums are not all about you buddy.
Just a polite recap of this brief back and forth we have had, in case you forgot where we are at.
id say its less of an issue than other games.
in other games where "you have a game to play", you actually dont. its not very obvious but ill explain. lets say you want raid drops and you can only get them by doing the raid. if you arent a player who enjoys or wants to raid, you dont have a game to play, because you need that gear to keep progressing. you cant go do somethign else and buy the gear. you are forced to do the raid. even if the raid is an instance and everybody in the server can do it at the same time, this might not be a game for you.
in aoc, you can have different progression paths and ways to acquire items. you can do the raid and get items. you can buy them, you can craft them. you arent forced a specific gameplay or path. you might be excluded from doing the raid if you arent in the right guild since you have to pvp for it, but you can also be excluded from raids in other games if you dont have the right class, the right gear or the right build. you might even do it with randoms in lfg and fail and you have no other way to get what you want, so you cant play or complete the game / challenge.
if i want pvp gear in wow to do open world pvp and not get one shotted, i have to do bg and then arenas, and then be good to climb and get the gear. so if i cant find the right players for my team, i cant get the gear. the same way you claim in ashes you shouldnt need to be in a strong guild to get the item you want or play the game, i can say that in other games is should need to find 2 other good players or a guild to do the arena and climb. what if you join a guild in wow and no one wants to do bg or arenas? you have to join a pvp guild, dont dyou? or pvx. same thing in ashes. the difference is, i dont need to join the top guild in ashes to get good gear because i can simply do one of the many activites in the game and buy it from someone.
according to this article:
https://gamerant.com/world-of-warcraft-less-players-raiding-now-versus-shadowlands-release/#:~:text=In Legion and Battle for,are other factors at play.
not everybody was able to complete the raids before the new patch and raid came in. so according to your logic, they didn't have a game to play.
you can still be a citizen of a max level node without being in a guild and you have access to t5 crafting. you can still have your freehold and do t5 processing, and even if you cant do t5 processing, you can buy the stuff from someone else by doing another activity and then do your t5 crafting.
you can also do one of the many things that dont need you to do t4 -t5 processing.
yes, I understand this, and that is a good thing. I was just suggesting basically for new players to join an NPC guild at the beginging to give basic crafting quests and such. Larger guilds can pick up new players from them then. Kind of like a starter area in a sense.
Not having access to all of the game if you are not in a guild is kind of expected. If you want access to raid drops, you get in a guild.
However, if you don't place self-imposed limits (wanting access to raid drops), you still have things you can do. Using WoW as an example, you can harvest, craft, quest etc, and you have access to the LFG and LFR systems (for better or worse). Literally the only thing in WoW you lose access to if you leave a top end guild is top end raiding.
And again, that is fine. If you are not in a guild, there should be aspects of the game you don't have access to - but there should still be a game for you to play.
If Ashes were just going to say "if you aren't in a guild, you probably won't be able to participate in naval content, but everything else is do-able", that would be fine. Being excluded from some content is absolutely expected (and in fact a good thing for the game).
The problem isn't being excluded from some content, the problem is in how much content is left. Which things is this?
Harvesting is subject to the land management system - there are people that will tell you what you can and can not harvest. Maybe not all the time, but the ssystem to do it will be in place.
Crafting is subject to the caravan system - there are people that will just take your stuff.
Solo PvP in the open world is pointless - you aren't fighting over anything.
Processing is obviously subject to the freehold system.
Naval content and what ever passes for top end PvE will directly require a guild.
Trying to get involved in node leadership without a guild behind you is probably a non-starter.
By my thinking, this leaves exactly two things people can do if they find themselves without a guild. The first is try to find pick up groups to run dungeons and such, and the second is travel around the world joining in on sieges.
This isn't much of a game.
Now, there are still quests in Ashes, including the social organization ones. However, we know very little about that so far, and if history is anything to go by, when we hear more about it, it will simply be another situation of Intrepid adding a convoluted system to the game in order to force competition where guilds will come out on top.
The stupid thing is - this is an issue that is completely Intrepids making. It is a situation that has been "solved" in every other game I have ever played. I spent almost 2 years in Archeage being the only person in my faction, let alone guild. I had so much to do that I literally couldn't keep up. I had to decide which of the things I wanted to do simply wouldn't get done so that I could - you know - sleep.
As a system for people new to the game, the limit to tier 3 is fine. It then encourages people to get out and do the thing needed to get to tier 4 and 5.
Problem is, that isn't what my concern is here.
well, ive been in top guilds in other games, and at some point i wasnt playing the game, because i was able to get everything i could by myself, and they werent interested in doing the easy raids, or even the hard ones, because they had already got everything. and these are games where you dont have to pvp to do the raids, they are purely cooperative. you just go into the instance and do it.
even in one of those games, i wasnt able to do the top dungeon on a fresh server. i was in the dominating guild of the server, but everybody had come from a different server and they all had their premade groups.
i found myself sitting there everyday looking for people outside my guild to do content, because i was already maxed out at what you could get soloing, and i could rarely if ever do the top content. and it wasnt because i had to pvp for it, it was because everyone already was past that point or they already had their premade groups. in one of those games i was a tank with top gear (except for the very best one where you need to do the dungeon im talking about).
the only way i could have probably done the content, would have been by leaving the top guilds and join a noobs, unorganized guild, wait for them for a couple of months to catch up, and then try to do the content. so in a game where the content was available to everybody, i found myself just sitting there everyday for hours not playing the game.
whereas in l2, a game where you can literally block people from progressing (or accessing certain content) i always had something to do. sometimes i was the guy blocking others from acquiring what they wanted, and sometimes i was the one being blocked, but i could always get what i wanted by different means and in a reasonable amount of time, usually at the same time as people who were in the top guilds, on those occasions I wasn't in the top guilds, usually by trading. so i always had a game to play in a game where you can block others from playing and competition is hard, and this is the basis of your argument. ironic isnt it?
similar example in ragnarok. its a pve game that has castle sieges and arena/bg pvp. there wer bosses that i coudlnt do because the people i played with wasnt interested on them, but i could always get the loot by trading. sometimes i was in top guilds, sometimes i ran the top guild, and sometimes i was in noobs guilds, and i was always able to get everything. you dont have to pvp for bosses in ro, but there are still loot rules, its basically first come first serve, or whoever does the most damage gets the stuff, so there is some form of competition when doing bosses.
Was there any system built in to L2 (other than just PvP), where one player could tell you what you could or could not harvest?
harvesting - you can still harvest. people cant stop you, you can just harvest and ruin their land. also, you might not over harvest in a node, but you can move form node to node. you wont always have to pvp.
crafting - there are also people who will defend your stuff...losing your stuff depends on your social skills, not on actual mechanics or your pvp ability. you might be a very likeable person who helps others, so people might never attack you, or people would be willing to defend you. you might also just take less items to anothr node and craft, even if you have to make a few more trips.
solo pvp and group pvp. you fight for spots and resources which equals progression, and its incredibly fun.
you dont need a fh to get t4 and t5 goods. you can buy them, you can have your friend make them for you.
i cant talk much about naval content. maybe for bosses you will need a guild, but look at my previous post on my experience of not being able to do instanced content while being in top guilds. so again, you might lose the pvp agaisnt the boss, but you can buy the item. maybe you can even do it eventually if the top guild stops doing it. or you can do it if it spawns when they arent on.
there is also probably naval content you can do with your party or solo.
node leadership- not everybody is interested in being a node major. and probably the only one that can be helped by a guild is the economic node. the rest is a solo experience afaik.
you do the content to acquire something dont you? im assuming you do stuff for a reward, since you mentioned solo pvp ow is pointless because you dont get anything. so if you can acquire the reward in a different way, you dont need to bother doing the content. unless you wanna do it for the fun, but you probably dont since you want to do it for the reward. if you want to do it for the fun of doing it, then solo pvp isnt pointless because its fun, even if "you dont get anything" and you would be contradicting yourself.
"harvesting" in l2 was different. you needed to make a character called fortune seeker, which was only available to dwarfs. its a warrior type class that later got revamped into a dagger / rogue type of class (less pwoerful than actual rogues tho).
to harvest, you would need to use a debuff on a mob. if the mob was much hgiher than you, the landing rate sucked, otherwise it was fine. then after the mob died, you had to use another skill to harvest it. also, i think othr fortune seekers could steal your harvest, but i dont remember exactly. then you would get materials (or recipes) to help you craft. the crafter was another dwarf.
you could get the materials in different areas, so if you coudlnt farm in the best area, you would go to a different one (imagine just farming somethign different in aoc). the recipes and item parts were a bit more limited on where you could find them, so you usually had to pvp for those, or be lucky to find an empty spot, or simply buy them from someone else.
you could also get some of those materials and recipes by simply killing mobs or doing some quests, however, that would take much much longer. spoiling (or harvesting with a fortune seeker) was the best option for the most part, aside from killing a boss and being lucky enough to get the item.
in aoc, people dont tell you what you can harvest or not. if i want to harvest anything, i dont care about the land management. thats someone elses problem. if they dont want me to harvest there, they can come pvp me. this is the equivalent of me having to pvp for a spoiling spot in l2.
I suspect he is using something like ChatGPT to try to sound like he is educated. just a working theory.
This is an offhand comment that is pretty important. He is aware of potential issues.
honestly. what are you doing here? Go make the perfect game yourself. You are obviously a very gifted game developer. Even if you have not earned enough to fund the game yourself, with your keen insight, you should have no problem finding investors. Please just do it somewhere else.
Also, if you think comments like this are 'feedback', you are not as smart as you think you are.
I am super excited to see how comments like this age.
While we don't have full details on it, we know it exists. The above is it's only actual purpose, so asthe functionality of it comes to light, we should assume it will be tweaked to serve that purpose (just as we don't know the details of the corruption system, but we know the purpose of it and so should assume it will be tweaked to serve that purpose).
If Steven came out and said they are dropping the notion of the land management system all together, then I would agree that harvesting then becomes a game system such a player could freely interact with. To me, that is the developers literally saying some people will tell you that you can't harvest certain things, and some players will tell you to harvest specific things. In other words, Intrepid have said (imo) that there will indeed be players that can tell you want you can harvest or not.
Same.
You do realize that I hope I am wrong, right?
i think you messed up the quotes and it looks like i said something i didnt xdd
you can still harvest things wether someone tells you to do it or not. if they wanna stop you, they will have to perma kill you and others...not gonna happen.
the land management system is automatic. you kill a lot of wolves, then more rabbits spawn and then they eat the crops, so people cant gather carrots. you kill too many rabbits, the wolves cant find food and move to another area, so now people cant get wolf skin. you harvest too many carrots, then rabbits dont have food and move to another area or die, then wolves move to another area or die.
afaik players cant affect that other than overgathering or pausing gathering.
Killing world bosses and activities on freeholds all impact this system.
Basically, the system is one where organized people can do as they will, and those less organized will suffer what they must.
The key thing to keep in mind here is that the entire idea of the land management system is pointless outside of this notion.
if you kill a world boss on someone elses node zoi, you are probably helping them with the happy node thingie. i forgot the name. so you could most likely be helping your enemies by doing that xD.
organized people can do as they will, and other organized people will fight them. where is the issue? if i saw you in the game and told you hey you can't cut down those trees, those are reserved for my node citizens, are you actually going to leave or pvp me? i cant stop you from cutting down the trees. even if i beat you in pvp, you could go to another area within the same node and cut down the trees.
"Basically, the system is one where organized people can do as they will, and those less organized will suffer what they must". this applies to pve games as well. how are you going to complete the instance if your group sucks and is disorganized?
The fact that the system is said to exist should tell us that there is a reason for it existing.
Now, you could argue as to what the reasons for it existing are, but I am going to assume that a system that only has the purpose of allowing players to limit the actions of other players will exist for the reason of allowing players to limit the actions of other players.
If you can come up with another reason for the land management system to exist, I'd like to hear it. I've yet to play any PvE game (or PvP game, or PvX game) where players are given as much control over the activities of others as Ashes seems to have.
That is the problem.
If you don't see that as a problem, then cool - we have different opinions on things. If you think that is a good thing, there is no point in discussing it as we would then both have our opinions set as to whether a thing in the game is good or bad.
The only actual point of discussion we have is as to whether I am right or not with what I can see happening.
imagine if everybody in your guild from eq refused to do a raid you want to do or need? how are you going to do the raid? you would have to look for people outside your guild. what if no one wants to party you because they dont like you? how are you going to do content and progress?
not sure if you can buy raid drops at the market place but if you cant (because in some games you cant) how are you going to get the item?
we go back to the same thing. in ashes, you might not be able to do something but you can do something else and buy whatever you want. not every guild will be able to do everything at the same time. also, it might be possible to make really good money with t1 and t2 stuff and you might not even need to do t4 or t5, and that could actually be less money per hour, kind of like it is in nw. I guess we will just have to wait until a2 or release.
also, this is the thing I was talking about
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Node_policies
so probably by killing a boss or completing story arcs on an enemy node zoi you are helping them.
If my whole guild decides they aren't raiding any more, then we are no longer a raid guild.
The key thing is, we would then have other parts of the game we can play with no one stopping us - this is the part Ashes doesn't have, and is the part that I have an issue with.
You won't be killing a world boss by yourself. However, doing any content within the zone of influence of a given node will benefit that node.
As a system though, node policies are just one more of those cases where a few players are able to control many.
Are you starting to see a pattern with how the game is being designed? Everything is designed around giving a few people control over the many. While this is fine (good) for some situations, Ashes has it for far too much already, and we haven't even got details of many systems where that will no doubt be added to.
But ultimately yes, those who are better organized will have a stronger say in this system.