(Also, you can’t really grind something you love to do.)
Sure, you can language drift anything, but…
But at that point it's all purely subjective. I just got done grinding in Starfield. I was killing lvl 1-5 mobs as a lvl 13 and clearing similar-looking locations of the same dumb npcs that the previous location had. I did this for 7 straight hours and did the same yesterday for 8. All while picking up every damn pickaupable thing in the game.
I loved it all the way through, but I fully realize that this kind of gameplay is seen as grindy to the majority of players. So no matter how much I love doing this - it's still a grind.
Do that 30 more years. I am curious what kind of MMOs will you play then.
In Ashes, you don’t really “grind” killing bosses, just as you don’t “grind” Node Sieges.
Again, this will only be true if Intrepid somehow manage to make hundreds of absolutely unique bosses and make the players have absolutely unique sieges. L2's sieges became mundane with time, and they didn't even have the "you lose a ton of your shit if your node falls" feature.
That's why I think mmos cannot compete with dedicated games which have a real end.
The endless mmos "end game" loop must be a dynamic you like and not a story related content. Otherwise we wait for that content many years to be prepared in advance.
But the AoC dynamic which I can see as grind is more about caravans. Maybe the monthly castle sieges too but those are not frequent enough to be perceived as a grind imo.
The caravans however might be grind, similar to arena fights but open to everyone to join when they want.
Do that 30 more years. I am curious what kind of MMOs will you play then.
I doubt that my preferences will change in 30 years, when they've been like that for 30 years already.
And I don't play mmos because they're all shit for me rn. The last "mmo" I played was Palia, cause it promised smth new. It's even grindier than L2 was and the game itself is still not even nearly finished. Maybe it'll be good some time later, but that's potentially more years away than AoC's release.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Genshin is the closest game to the "ideal" content release cycle. Every 6 weeks it gets new events, new quests and most of the time new locations with new mobs/bosses. It is able to produce all of that (and 3 other damn games with the same release schedule lol) cause it makes insane money. I dunno how hard it'll be for Intrepid to make the content updates meaningful enough and get them out often enough to keep people in the game and potentially bring in new ones, but I'd assume it'll be reaaaaal hard or at the very least real expensive.
Seems to be common to have Seasonal updates.
WoW: Dragonflight does this.
Even New World is doing it.
Seems to be easier these days than it was 5-10 years ago. Probably especially with UE5.
And... most of the new content we experience will be churned out by the rise and fall of Nodes.
Again, if IS can successfully implement Steven's vision.
Also, afaik majority of Genshin players can't even keep up with that content cycle. But even then they still burn out of the game because even such variety can become mundane. And Genshin is a solo game where there's no real "race" to do content or progress faster. Ashes will be different.
I dunno why players would burn out from Ashes. Ashes does not have an endgame.
Also, Ashes is a multiplayer Themebox.
Again, this will only be true if Intrepid somehow manage to make hundreds of absolutely unique bosses and make the players have absolutely unique sieges. L2's sieges became mundane with time, and they didn't even have the "you lose a ton of your shit if your node falls" feature.
The boss fights don't have to be super unique because it's not just about the combat.
The bosses need to have signifcant impact on the region and world to motivate eradicting them. It's easy to burnout when all there left to do is repeat the exact same content for years just to get a full set of BiS gear.
Players don't really lose a ton of their shit when a Node falls. They lose immediate access to some stuff.
And, it's easier to regain that access while in Refugee status.
I just got done grinding in Starfield. I was killing lvl 1-5 mobs as a lvl 13 and clearing similar-looking locations of the same dumb npcs that the previous location had. I did this for 7 straight hours and did the same yesterday for 8. All while picking up every damn pickaupable thing in the game.
I loved it all the way through, but I fully realize that this kind of gameplay is seen as grindy to the majority of players. So no matter how much I love doing this - it's still a grind.
I think what you are saying here is that Coke can be a coke.
And, yes, it is possible for some people to enjoy something that most people dislike.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The endless mmos "end game" loop must be a dynamic you like and not a story related content. Otherwise we wait for that content many years to be prepared in advance.
But the AoC dynamic which I can see as grind is more about caravans. Maybe the monthly castle sieges too but those are not frequent enough to be perceived as a grind imo.
The caravans however might be grind, similar to arena fights but open to everyone to join when they want.
Why not both?
MMORPGs should not have an endgame loop.
Why would Caravans be a "grind"? Only people for whom Caravans might be a grind are the 5 guilds who own a Castle. And they could choose to ignore Caravans if they chose to.
Do that 30 more years. I am curious what kind of MMOs will you play then.
I doubt that my preferences will change in 30 years, when they've been like that for 30 years already.
And I don't play mmos because they're all shit for me rn. The last "mmo" I played was Palia, cause it promised smth new. It's even grindier than L2 was and the game itself is still not even nearly finished. Maybe it'll be good some time later, but that's potentially more years away than AoC's release.
Will crafting be grindy in AoC? (I would check the wiki but the site seems down)
If yes, you will be able to sell the swords you make really expensive. And also repairing them will be expensive.
Dying while wearing the best gear might be painful.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
We know nothing meaningful about Crafting mechanics.
It's unlikely that gear repair will be expensive.
We'll see.
Will crafting be grindy in AoC?
If yes, you will be able to sell the swords you make really expensive. And also repairing them will be expensive.
Dying while wearing the best gear might be painful.
Unless Intrepid make every single craft action unique (in perpetuity) - yes, it'll be grindy. You'll be making the same items over and over, with potentially the same mechanical actions over and over.
The value of the things you make wouldn't change the mundaness of the process itself.
Will crafting be grindy in AoC?
If yes, you will be able to sell the swords you make really expensive. And also repairing them will be expensive.
Dying while wearing the best gear might be painful.
Unless Intrepid make every single craft action unique (in perpetuity) - yes, it'll be grindy. You'll be making the same items over and over, with potentially the same mechanical actions over and over.
The value of the things you make wouldn't change the mundaness of the process itself.
I hope it will be complex enough to not be possible to follow out of memory certain steps.
Coming from earlier MMO's (Everquest, Anarchy Online) where it could take a long time to reach the max level, I fully agree that leveling up should be the first part of the journey in Verra.
Modern MMO's seem to focus on, and sell, the end game that only starts once you reach level cap (gear level restriction, raid entry, etc).
Locking content behind a specific level is a sure way to force people into a sense of obligation to reach max level quickly.
Introducing higher XP requirements for leveling up, with high multipliers per level, will only impact negatively on the problem.
Climing the level ladder should be secondary, and exploring both the world and ones own class and it's abilities should be the primary focus. XP is a biproduct of activites you should enjoy doing, and reaching the next level should be a surprise or a bonus, not a goal.
How long it should take to reach maximum level is hard to predict, because several things impact the speed someone climbs the level-ladder.
- How many hours per week one plays
- How effective one plays
- How much experience different tasks grants
- How much help ones have from friends or guild
Dialing in these numbers should be one of the most important tasks during the Alpha stage of the game.
Do Intrepid Studios want the leveling phase to be where most players familiarize themselves with the world, the different game systems, their own class, artisan skills, and more?
If so, leveling up mining, herbalism and alchemy should be sufficiently rewarding in terms of reward (and XP).
Personally, I would like to see an MMO where reaching maximum level is something that most people forget about during their first months in the game, simply bacause it takes too long to be an immediate goal.
Whatsmore, I would like to see a new game where the grind for XP never ends. Everquest did this with Alternate Advancement (AA). You could always grind for even more unlocked abilities. This made character investment rewarding beyond simply reaching max level.
^^^ This. DAoC did this as well. After 50 you would grind for Realm Rank. I played for years on Mordred (PvP server) and after about several years, the highest RR was still in the 6-7 range. There were like 100 abilities/bonuses you could get, and some meshed really well for your class, and some were generic. But it was a way to continually strengthen your character after (and independent) of level cap.
And what about when you're "done" leveling? I'd imagine we'll have to wait more than 500h w/o consistent content. So if the content drought is inevitable, why loaded it all off onto the last lvl instead of spreading it over all of them?
I Understand this sentiment in the wake of the design of many games you've likely recently played. The fact is that the content involved in the majority of games involves some sort of power progression as their primary interest. Power progression is not the primary interest/gameplay mechanic in Ashes. Power progression in it's essence in all MMORPGs is linked to some extent to leveling. This is the correct place to apply power progression, not as a gameplay mechanic at endgame where you have to indefinitely increase the power of gear after you've reached end game. We will have more than enough to do by interacting with others, trading, gathering resources and protecting their travel, sieging nodes, influencing politics, etc etc.
You'll go months w/o getting new spells once you're done leveling. Will you feel horrified then as well? And you hitting max lvl is not the end of your character's progress. You'll just have to wait for the next expansion to come, which will be in several months (if not a year) after release, so you'll be playing with the same skillset for a loooong time either way.
I'm not sure how the point was missed here. "If you intend to have quality content to surround a KIT that a class possesses" quite literally implies that eventually your class will be constantly provide quality content due to the completed kit (of spells and abilities) that they have. You don't need to worry about new spells or new meta abilities if the class is just fun to play. The point is, as I said, to slowly give the player a taste of the loads of fun they'll have when it's all put together.
And here you go contradicting yourself. If there's always more progress to be made then what is the difference in having that progress at lvl 45 or at lvl 50? And if high lvl players are meant to go interact with lower lvl players, then why should the game push everyone to be the same? Might as well just have everyone progress at whichever pace, while the base pace is real slow.
Uh, yes. "What is the difference in having that progress at lvl 45 or lvl 50" … when you venture out into Verra to experience it's vast intrigues.. you've in fact quoted my point quite diligently, thank you. There is truly no link between social interactions and the amount of progress you have in your class. The fact is that the leveling process is a representation of your development as a character. You're growing your knowledge, your skill and your skillset as you explore the world. That's why I find it incredibly fun, the concept that someone who is more wise and fulfilled, can participate with someone who is just beginning to root themselves in the journey of their class.
The game in no way is pushing you to complete your journey, you have the option to take it as slow as you want. If you want the process of leveling to take 500 hours because you only auto attack lower level enemies, go for it. The leveling experience and it's enjoyment can be completely separated from the overall scope of the game. As far as I've gathered that is damn near a quote from Steven. But if you're looking for the leveling experience itself to be incredibly satisfying, well paced, and not too much effort for the average player, it simply cannot function with these numbers.
Hopefully that helped guide you to my points better, and thanks for your time!
What I gather is that the previous mmos of the majority of the posters here did not place ANY value on gear or consumables or quests, except for the final grade/tier, leading to end-game treadmills to loot (by chance) the item with the suitable bonuses; and so people cruised through the whole map.
//
In a few words, many of the people here have complained about not wanting to play in each area for more than a couple of hours (lv grind or whatever). I guess they have some tiktok to watch or consume other online gems because their time is valuable.
I just grabbed this portion of the comment because I agree with most of the post, and it didn't have any real conflicts with my original content based commend on the discussion.
But I did have to mention in good faith that this is an unfair argument. As a person that would likely be grouped into the "Can only watch 6 second content" people … It's far more than that. It isn't black or white, Things don't have to be instant gratification Call of Duty style games that get boring after a month of gameplay, they also don't have to be a commitment that will require every single average player to dedicate at MINIMUM 4 hours a day. These are examples, don't take them literally.
We want our time to matter, this applies to the content both being too short, or too long. If you want the game to feel like a place to escape to and have fun with, you don't want to have to log in for 3 hours after work, just to get 1/12th of a level and realize you're not going to be anywhere for a month. If you ALSO want the game to feel like you really achieved greatness, and that your character is a representation of achievement, you don't want there to be an option to spend $60 on a cash shop to just say "F%@$ off leveling". We want a balance between the 2, and I think a lot of people in the discussion agree that taking 3 months of semi-hardcore gameplay every single day … feels more like buying a loan for a house, rather than committing your time to something fun and lovely that improves your every day life.
Hopefully I'm not misrepresenting anyone that has generally responded to this post with "I'd rather reach max level before they invent time travel and gravity drives".
Many times I have chosen to ignore Stevens sugar coating of certain uncomfortable facts for two reasons: I am an adult with life experience and I know not to get offended by little flexibility, especially in promotions.
Secondly this is the best mmo that will ever be for a while and if you poke holes on useless things like jahlon, dygz and others, ridiculously demanding a milionaire to comply to your online whims about HIS game, people may not call you an animal abuser but will definatly laugh at you.
Just read through this and most certainly should be where the discussion ends. Please re-assess your approach to Ashes and the community! So many of us so deeply appreciate Steven and the way he truly loves to interact with the community, please respect that reality of the situation. It's a good topic to discuss though so thanks for your time!
Many times I have chosen to ignore Stevens sugar coating of certain uncomfortable facts for two reasons: I am an adult with life experience and I know not to get offended by little flexibility, especially in promotions.
Secondly this is the best mmo that will ever be for a while and if you poke holes on useless things like jahlon, dygz and others, ridiculously demanding a milionaire to comply to your online whims about HIS game, people may not call you an animal abuser but will definatly laugh at you.
Just read through this and most certainly should be where the discussion ends. Please re-assess your approach to Ashes and the community! So many of us so deeply appreciate Steven and the way he truly loves to interact with the community, please respect that reality of the situation. It's a good topic to discuss though so thanks for your time!
You don't know anything about my time in this community, my thoughts on Steven and his game.
What I gather is that the previous mmos of the majority of the posters here did not place ANY value on gear or consumables or quests, except for the final grade/tier, leading to end-game treadmills to loot (by chance) the item with the suitable bonuses; and so people cruised through the whole map.
//
In a few words, many of the people here have complained about not wanting to play in each area for more than a couple of hours (lv grind or whatever). I guess they have some tiktok to watch or consume other online gems because their time is valuable.
I just grabbed this portion of the comment because I agree with most of the post, and it didn't have any real conflicts with my original content based commend on the discussion.
But I did have to mention in good faith that this is an unfair argument. As a person that would likely be grouped into the "Can only watch 6 second content" people … It's far more than that. It isn't black or white, Things don't have to be instant gratification Call of Duty style games that get boring after a month of gameplay, they also don't have to be a commitment that will require every single average player to dedicate at MINIMUM 4 hours a day. These are examples, don't take them literally.
We want our time to matter, this applies to the content both being too short, or too long. If you want the game to feel like a place to escape to and have fun with, you don't want to have to log in for 3 hours after work, just to get 1/12th of a level and realize you're not going to be anywhere for a month. If you ALSO want the game to feel like you really achieved greatness, and that your character is a representation of achievement, you don't want there to be an option to spend $60 on a cash shop to just say "F%@$ off leveling". We want a balance between the 2, and I think a lot of people in the discussion agree that taking 3 months of semi-hardcore gameplay every single day … feels more like buying a loan for a house, rather than committing your time to something fun and lovely that improves your every day life.
Hopefully I'm not misrepresenting anyone that has generally responded to this post with "I'd rather reach max level before they invent time travel and gravity drives".
Thanks for your time!
That's because people like you think that getting the next level is what matters. No. As you try to get each level you come across enemies and you fight for various reasons. You come across caravans and you either protect or attack. You discover new hidden corners around the map, as you try to get the next level, but that leads you to a different activity of "let's see what's there". During all this time you gather mats, you craft a boat or a piece for your future freehold.
As you try to get the next level so many things can happen.
If you get that level within 20 minutes, as you are used to from the mmos I linked you all to, NONE OF THOSE THINGS WILL HAPPEN.
Comments
I have a dad.
How old are you?
Old enough to know your argument is childish and full boomer levels.
You are old enough to know fuck-all
That's why I think mmos cannot compete with dedicated games which have a real end.
The endless mmos "end game" loop must be a dynamic you like and not a story related content. Otherwise we wait for that content many years to be prepared in advance.
But the AoC dynamic which I can see as grind is more about caravans. Maybe the monthly castle sieges too but those are not frequent enough to be perceived as a grind imo.
The caravans however might be grind, similar to arena fights but open to everyone to join when they want.
And I don't play mmos because they're all shit for me rn. The last "mmo" I played was Palia, cause it promised smth new. It's even grindier than L2 was and the game itself is still not even nearly finished. Maybe it'll be good some time later, but that's potentially more years away than AoC's release.
WoW: Dragonflight does this.
Even New World is doing it.
Seems to be easier these days than it was 5-10 years ago. Probably especially with UE5.
And... most of the new content we experience will be churned out by the rise and fall of Nodes.
Again, if IS can successfully implement Steven's vision.
I dunno why players would burn out from Ashes. Ashes does not have an endgame.
Also, Ashes is a multiplayer Themebox.
The boss fights don't have to be super unique because it's not just about the combat.
The bosses need to have signifcant impact on the region and world to motivate eradicting them. It's easy to burnout when all there left to do is repeat the exact same content for years just to get a full set of BiS gear.
Players don't really lose a ton of their shit when a Node falls. They lose immediate access to some stuff.
And, it's easier to regain that access while in Refugee status.
Everything is subjective.
I think what you are saying here is that Coke can be a coke.
And, yes, it is possible for some people to enjoy something that most people dislike.
MMORPGs should not have an endgame loop.
Why would Caravans be a "grind"? Only people for whom Caravans might be a grind are the 5 guilds who own a Castle. And they could choose to ignore Caravans if they chose to.
Will crafting be grindy in AoC? (I would check the wiki but the site seems down)
If yes, you will be able to sell the swords you make really expensive. And also repairing them will be expensive.
Dying while wearing the best gear might be painful.
It's unlikely that gear repair will be expensive.
We'll see.
The value of the things you make wouldn't change the mundaness of the process itself.
I hope it will be complex enough to not be possible to follow out of memory certain steps.
^^^ This. DAoC did this as well. After 50 you would grind for Realm Rank. I played for years on Mordred (PvP server) and after about several years, the highest RR was still in the 6-7 range. There were like 100 abilities/bonuses you could get, and some meshed really well for your class, and some were generic. But it was a way to continually strengthen your character after (and independent) of level cap.
I don't want to keep notes.... one button please...
Cool, then my original point that it seemed like he helped you with that sick burn stands.
(My quote here) I Understand this sentiment in the wake of the design of many games you've likely recently played. The fact is that the content involved in the majority of games involves some sort of power progression as their primary interest. Power progression is not the primary interest/gameplay mechanic in Ashes. Power progression in it's essence in all MMORPGs is linked to some extent to leveling. This is the correct place to apply power progression, not as a gameplay mechanic at endgame where you have to indefinitely increase the power of gear after you've reached end game. We will have more than enough to do by interacting with others, trading, gathering resources and protecting their travel, sieging nodes, influencing politics, etc etc.
I'm not sure how the point was missed here. "If you intend to have quality content to surround a KIT that a class possesses" quite literally implies that eventually your class will be constantly provide quality content due to the completed kit (of spells and abilities) that they have. You don't need to worry about new spells or new meta abilities if the class is just fun to play. The point is, as I said, to slowly give the player a taste of the loads of fun they'll have when it's all put together.
I literally don't know how you arrived at this statement so I will leave it be.
Uh, yes. "What is the difference in having that progress at lvl 45 or lvl 50" … when you venture out into Verra to experience it's vast intrigues.. you've in fact quoted my point quite diligently, thank you. There is truly no link between social interactions and the amount of progress you have in your class. The fact is that the leveling process is a representation of your development as a character. You're growing your knowledge, your skill and your skillset as you explore the world. That's why I find it incredibly fun, the concept that someone who is more wise and fulfilled, can participate with someone who is just beginning to root themselves in the journey of their class.
The game in no way is pushing you to complete your journey, you have the option to take it as slow as you want. If you want the process of leveling to take 500 hours because you only auto attack lower level enemies, go for it. The leveling experience and it's enjoyment can be completely separated from the overall scope of the game. As far as I've gathered that is damn near a quote from Steven. But if you're looking for the leveling experience itself to be incredibly satisfying, well paced, and not too much effort for the average player, it simply cannot function with these numbers.
Hopefully that helped guide you to my points better, and thanks for your time!
I just grabbed this portion of the comment because I agree with most of the post, and it didn't have any real conflicts with my original content based commend on the discussion.
But I did have to mention in good faith that this is an unfair argument. As a person that would likely be grouped into the "Can only watch 6 second content" people … It's far more than that. It isn't black or white, Things don't have to be instant gratification Call of Duty style games that get boring after a month of gameplay, they also don't have to be a commitment that will require every single average player to dedicate at MINIMUM 4 hours a day. These are examples, don't take them literally.
We want our time to matter, this applies to the content both being too short, or too long. If you want the game to feel like a place to escape to and have fun with, you don't want to have to log in for 3 hours after work, just to get 1/12th of a level and realize you're not going to be anywhere for a month. If you ALSO want the game to feel like you really achieved greatness, and that your character is a representation of achievement, you don't want there to be an option to spend $60 on a cash shop to just say "F%@$ off leveling". We want a balance between the 2, and I think a lot of people in the discussion agree that taking 3 months of semi-hardcore gameplay every single day … feels more like buying a loan for a house, rather than committing your time to something fun and lovely that improves your every day life.
Hopefully I'm not misrepresenting anyone that has generally responded to this post with "I'd rather reach max level before they invent time travel and gravity drives".
Thanks for your time!
You don't know anything about my time in this community, my thoughts on Steven and his game.
That's because people like you think that getting the next level is what matters. No. As you try to get each level you come across enemies and you fight for various reasons. You come across caravans and you either protect or attack. You discover new hidden corners around the map, as you try to get the next level, but that leads you to a different activity of "let's see what's there". During all this time you gather mats, you craft a boat or a piece for your future freehold.
As you try to get the next level so many things can happen.
If you get that level within 20 minutes, as you are used to from the mmos I linked you all to, NONE OF THOSE THINGS WILL HAPPEN.
Doubt we'll get anywhere further than that though, so whatever.