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Is religion optional or integral?

RebutkoRebutko Member
edited September 2023 in General Discussion
Can someone explain this system to me? Will religion be a required part of the game to not leave gaps in your characters progression?
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Comments

  • Nevermind I think I found the answer to my question. Needless to say I think this is a huge mistake forcing players into “practicing” a religion in a game that may interfere with their own deeply held religious beliefs. Major disappointment this is direction that has been chosen.
  • no one is forced....religions are optional. you can simply join a military, scientific or economic node if you dont want to join a religious node.
  • JamationJamation Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I don't know what answer you found, but no...you don't have to practice any religion in the game if you don't want to
    2ngxt5vdbl4y.png

    from the wiki: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Religions


    It won't leave gaps in your characters progress as many of the things with in-game impact are rewarded to those who are top members of a religion (like a Bishop or a Pope). It's the same with any optional system. If you don't want to participate you don't have to, but you also won't get whatever is associated with it (like the vendor discounts/recipes for high ranking members). Same with if you don't go into crafting/gathering, or if you don't raid, or if you don't go into the government of a node. It's not going to leave a "gap" in the sense that if you don't do it you'll be behind other players. It's just a system that you can choose not to participate in. What other direction do you think they should be going if that's not to your taste?
  • I just don’t think “practicing” a religion should ever be something that feels required in any sense - it should be completely RP related if it’s going to be pushed in a game. It crosses a line that may make many players uncomfortable and feel forced to participate in if it has anything to do with character progression.
  • its not required...

    many things make people uncomfortable. sucks to suck.

    if the rule is dont make people uncomfortable, not even one person...then no one would ever do or say anything at all
  • Rebutko wrote: »
    I just don’t think “practicing” a religion should ever be something that feels required in any sense ...

    Did you read the quotes from the wiki?

    It's not required. Period.
  • Rebutko wrote: »
    I just don’t think “practicing” a religion should ever be something that feels required in any sense ...

    Did you read the quotes from the wiki?

    It's not required. Period.

    Is the below information incorrect ?

    edk7he229yi4.jpeg

  • RebutkoRebutko Member
    edited September 2023
    Religions most definitely will have player power impact. Augments, Unique abilities, special items & recipes.

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  • it also says on the wiki somewhere that you can only have one active augment on a skill at a time...but yeah i guess ud miss out on the option if u dont pick a religion. but if u dont become a member of a religious node, you can become a member of another type of node and get something else in return...so its not mandatory, it depends what you want.

    also its a video game, ur not really worshipping anything, -__-
  • RebutkoRebutko Member
    edited September 2023
    I think it crosses a line that shouldn’t be crossed in a video game. I think this is a huge mistake.

    tphtssn7vl83.jpeg
  • I am against killing people in real life but players will be expected to do that countless times in game.
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    If you choose not to join the crafters' guild (thieves guild, learn animal husbandry, roll an archer, join a guild, or pretty much anything else) then you end up not maximizing your character. Same with religion. I don't want to practice thievery, so I don't join the thieves guild...same with religion.

    It is actually cool, you choose what in the game is most fun for you...and you do that!
  • It’s creepy to even talk about tbh. If you can’t tell the difference between fantasy combat in which characters respawn, limited gore, fictional monsters etc and a realistic religion system in which deity worship is encouraged via shrines, temples, quests etc. I’m not sure how to explain it to you.
  • RebutkoRebutko Member
    edited September 2023
    tautau wrote: »
    If you choose not to join the crafters' guild (thieves guild, learn animal husbandry, roll an archer, join a guild, or pretty much anything else) then you end up not maximizing your character. Same with religion. I don't want to practice thievery, so I don't join the thieves guild...same with religion.

    It is actually cool, you choose what in the game is most fun for you...and you do that!


    I think the issue is that it sounds like it *is* required because it provides *unique* skill augments, items, recipes etc. You can’t really call that optional if it has a significant impact on character progression.

    If it was RP I wouldn’t care. Do whatever you want.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Rebutko wrote: »
    It’s creepy to even talk about tbh. If you can’t tell the difference between fantasy combat in which characters respawn, limited gore, fictional monsters etc and a realistic religion system in which deity worship is encouraged via shrines, temples, quests etc. I’m not sure how to explain it to you.

    Interesting take.
    If you can't tell the difference between a fantasy religion and a real one :s
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Rebutko wrote: »
    I think it crosses a line that shouldn’t be crossed in a video game. I think this is a huge mistake.

    I disagree.

    Religion has been a part of many games for many years. It adds flavor to a games world, and allowing players to gain from being active in an in game religion simply gives players motivation to participate in that gameplay.

    If there was no reason to participate in religious content, the game shouldn't have religions at all.

    Thus, it is either *have religions in game and make them worthwhile content* or *don't have them at all*. Since the game world is obviously richer and fuller with religion than without, it is a no-brainer that they exist, and as such that they are worthwhile content.

    In years of playing MMO's with in game religions, this is the first complaints I've ever seen about religion like this.
  • Rebutko wrote: »
    tautau wrote: »
    If you choose not to join the crafters' guild (thieves guild, learn animal husbandry, roll an archer, join a guild, or pretty much anything else) then you end up not maximizing your character. Same with religion. I don't want to practice thievery, so I don't join the thieves guild...same with religion.

    It is actually cool, you choose what in the game is most fun for you...and you do that!


    I think the issue is that it sounds like it *is* required because it provides *unique* skill augments, items, recipes etc. You can’t really call that optional if it has a significant impact on character progression.

    If it was RP I wouldn’t care. Do whatever you want.

    how do you know they are significant? maybe the augment sucks

    they provide 4 progression paths, each one tied to a node. if you pick religion, you are missing on the other 3. just pick military or something....
  • Raven016Raven016 Member
    edited September 2023
    Rebutko wrote: »
    Nevermind I think I found the answer to my question. Needless to say I think this is a huge mistake forcing players into “practicing” a religion in a game that may interfere with their own deeply held religious beliefs. Major disappointment this is direction that has been chosen.

    There are Gods in the world of Vera. It makes sense to get a real force or benefit if you obtain their favor.
    What makes no sense is:

    Players will not be able to worship The Others at temples, but certain quest paths will allow darker forms of worship.[9]

    I have the feeling that the Others will not be as helpful as the Seven.
    So in the end, this is more for the game mechanic which wants to avoid factions.

    Also the corruption as lore is different from the corruption as game mechanic. Would be better to have a bit of corruption everywhere, even in deep ocean and caravan fights.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Depraved wrote: »
    they provide 4 progression paths, each one tied to a node. if you pick religion, you are missing on the other 3. just pick military or something....

    As far as we know, this isn't true.

    In the same way you can PvP if you are not in a military node, you can buy and sell goods if you are not in an economic node, and you can craft items if you are not in a scientific node, you can still participate in religion if you are not in a religious node.
  • Raven016Raven016 Member
    edited September 2023
    Depraved wrote: »
    Rebutko wrote: »
    tautau wrote: »
    If you choose not to join the crafters' guild (thieves guild, learn animal husbandry, roll an archer, join a guild, or pretty much anything else) then you end up not maximizing your character. Same with religion. I don't want to practice thievery, so I don't join the thieves guild...same with religion.

    It is actually cool, you choose what in the game is most fun for you...and you do that!


    I think the issue is that it sounds like it *is* required because it provides *unique* skill augments, items, recipes etc. You can’t really call that optional if it has a significant impact on character progression.

    If it was RP I wouldn’t care. Do whatever you want.

    how do you know they are significant? maybe the augment sucks

    they provide 4 progression paths, each one tied to a node. if you pick religion, you are missing on the other 3. just pick military or something....

    Only 4 progression paths? But there are 7 good Gods...
  • Raven016Raven016 Member
    edited September 2023
    Rebutko wrote: »
    I think it crosses a line that shouldn’t be crossed in a video game. I think this is a huge mistake.

    tphtssn7vl83.jpeg

    'Can only be' does not mean 'you have to'
    You can decline trying to get those benefits. The problem you have is that in real life you was forced to accept religion. But Vera is not like the real world. In Vera there is magic, in real world is not.
  • SylvanarSylvanar Member
    edited September 2023
    Rebutko wrote: »
    I just don’t think “practicing” a religion should ever be something that feels required in any sense - it should be completely RP related if it’s going to be pushed in a game. It crosses a line that may make many players uncomfortable and feel forced to participate in if it has anything to do with character progression.

    Snowflake.

    Next you will cry about PvP being mandatory if someone is not interested due to their core non-violent beliefs. They will miss out on achievements and progression and "should ever be something that feels required in any sense - it should be completely RP related if it’s going to be pushed in a game."

    Newsflash: This isn't a pure RP game.
    Rebutko wrote: »
    It’s creepy to even talk about tbh. If you can’t tell the difference between fantasy combat in which characters respawn, limited gore, fictional monsters etc and a realistic religion system in which deity worship is encouraged via shrines, temples, quests etc. I’m not sure how to explain it to you.

    Yeah its creepy to talk about what we are talking about if you cant tell the difference between fantasy religion where you score points via doing random errands and real life religious practices where actual faith in it is involved.

    If you cant separate 2D and 3D, that's on you. Not the community.
    "Suffer in silence"
  • There is only one faith - Love

    Love your neighbour
    Love the planet
    But of all things love yourself.

    Practice what you preach.
  • HinotoriHinotori Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
  • Sylvanar wrote: »
    Rebutko wrote: »
    I just don’t think “practicing” a religion should ever be something that feels required in any sense - it should be completely RP related if it’s going to be pushed in a game. It crosses a line that may make many players uncomfortable and feel forced to participate in if it has anything to do with character progression.

    Snowflake.

    Next you will cry about PvP being mandatory if someone is not interested due to their core non-violent beliefs. They will miss out on achievements and progression and "should ever be something that feels required in any sense - it should be completely RP related if it’s going to be pushed in a game."

    Newsflash: This isn't a pure RP game.
    Rebutko wrote: »
    It’s creepy to even talk about tbh. If you can’t tell the difference between fantasy combat in which characters respawn, limited gore, fictional monsters etc and a realistic religion system in which deity worship is encouraged via shrines, temples, quests etc. I’m not sure how to explain it to you.

    Yeah its creepy to talk about what we are talking about if you cant tell the difference between fantasy religion where you score points via doing random errands and real life religious practices where actual faith in it is involved.

    If you cant separate 2D and 3D, that's on you. Not the community.

    Until you can come up with a valid point I’ll decline to engage in discussion with you. Read below to be educated on what your reply consists of.

    tpozgblbidff.png

  • RebutkoRebutko Member
    edited September 2023
    Noaani wrote: »
    Rebutko wrote: »
    I think it crosses a line that shouldn’t be crossed in a video game. I think this is a huge mistake.

    I disagree.

    Religion has been a part of many games for many years. It adds flavor to a games world, and allowing players to gain from being active in an in game religion simply gives players motivation to participate in that gameplay.

    If there was no reason to participate in religious content, the game shouldn't have religions at all.

    Thus, it is either *have religions in game and make them worthwhile content* or *don't have them at all*. Since the game world is obviously richer and fuller with religion than without, it is a no-brainer that they exist, and as such that they are worthwhile content.

    In years of playing MMO's with in game religions, this is the first complaints I've ever seen about religion like this.

    Which game(s)?
  • RebutkoRebutko Member
    edited September 2023
    Raven016 wrote: »
    Rebutko wrote: »
    I think it crosses a line that shouldn’t be crossed in a video game. I think this is a huge mistake.

    tphtssn7vl83.jpeg

    'Can only be' does not mean 'you have to'
    You can decline trying to get those benefits. The problem you have is that in real life you was forced to accept religion. But Vera is not like the real world. In Vera there is magic, in real world is not.

    Yes of course everyone understands it’s a game. The issue is there are religions that people follow in real life that would never feel comfortable being forced through character progression into a “practice” of worship to fictional Gods. It’s one thing for there to be themes in the game about this for context of the fictional world, but it’s quite another to lock character progression behind a game programmed religious practice with realistic real-world religious actions that must be followed.
  • JamationJamation Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Rebutko wrote: »
    Religions most definitely will have player power impact. Augments, Unique abilities, special items & recipes.


    Hi so I don't know if you have me blocked because the first post I put already shows that they have said religious augments will not hurt you if you don't pick them up.

    2ngxt5vdbl4y.png
    Rebutko wrote: »
    I think the issue is that it sounds like it *is* required because it provides *unique* skill augments, items, recipes etc. You can’t really call that optional if it has a significant impact on character progression.

    If it was RP I wouldn’t care. Do whatever you want.

    So I don't know where the disconnect is happening between what multiple people are trying to communicate to you and what you are stuck believing. Because we've already said that it WON'T have a "significant impact on character progression". I know I personally mentioned the items and recipes in my initial post as well as those are offered only to the highest ranking members of a religion. If you think you'll be one of the few people to ever get to be one of the high ranking members of anything, then more power to you. But the vast majority of the player population will not be the top of anything. Since you know...that's how leaderboards work? Not only that but we have 0 idea what the vendor items even are yet! They could literally be cosmetic furniture items for all we know and yet you're claiming they are some impactful thing already?

    They literally said "horizontal progression" and "sidegrades". As others have also mentioned to you, the augments are also a part of a give-and-take system. So you won't be stacking every augment possible from every corner of the game on one skill to make some super insane power level skill. And even then those augments will once again require extraordinary amounts of effort as they will be top tier achievements. Would you take away the achievements of a raider because they beat some of the toughest dungeons and bosses simply because you don't agree with the design of the graphical monsters? No, that would be silly since this is all fake make believe fantasy that has no correlation to what people practice and believe in the real world.

    It's a pick and choose system. If you choose not to pick a religious augment because it goes against your moral code, then go pick another type of augment that would fit that slot instead.

    On top of that this is a High Fantasy world. Religion is in a TON of video games, and yes, some have actual gameplay interactions. But you can't expect someone to rip apart their high fantasy creation to satisfy other people, that's not how storytelling works. As someone who has a very strong faith I can see the difference between what I read from my Bible and what I read in a video game. If you can't claim the same for your own faith and religion, then perhaps take a deeper look into why that is.

  • Jamation wrote: »
    Rebutko wrote: »
    Religions most definitely will have player power impact. Augments, Unique abilities, special items & recipes.


    Hi so I don't know if you have me blocked because the first post I put already shows that they have said religious augments will not hurt you if you don't pick them up.

    2ngxt5vdbl4y.png
    Rebutko wrote: »
    I think the issue is that it sounds like it *is* required because it provides *unique* skill augments, items, recipes etc. You can’t really call that optional if it has a significant impact on character progression.

    If it was RP I wouldn’t care. Do whatever you want.

    So I don't know where the disconnect is happening between what multiple people are trying to communicate to you and what you are stuck believing. Because we've already said that it WON'T have a "significant impact on character progression". I know I personally mentioned the items and recipes in my initial post as well as those are offered only to the highest ranking members of a religion. If you think you'll be one of the few people to ever get to be one of the high ranking members of anything, then more power to you. But the vast majority of the player population will not be the top of anything. Since you know...that's how leaderboards work? Not only that but we have 0 idea what the vendor items even are yet! They could literally be cosmetic furniture items for all we know and yet you're claiming they are some impactful thing already?

    They literally said "horizontal progression" and "sidegrades". As others have also mentioned to you, the augments are also a part of a give-and-take system. So you won't be stacking every augment possible from every corner of the game on one skill to make some super insane power level skill. And even then those augments will once again require extraordinary amounts of effort as they will be top tier achievements. Would you take away the achievements of a raider because they beat some of the toughest dungeons and bosses simply because you don't agree with the design of the graphical monsters? No, that would be silly since this is all fake make believe fantasy that has no correlation to what people practice and believe in the real world.

    It's a pick and choose system. If you choose not to pick a religious augment because it goes against your moral code, then go pick another type of augment that would fit that slot instead.

    On top of that this is a High Fantasy world. Religion is in a TON of video games, and yes, some have actual gameplay interactions. But you can't expect someone to rip apart their high fantasy creation to satisfy other people, that's not how storytelling works. As someone who has a very strong faith I can see the difference between what I read from my Bible and what I read in a video game. If you can't claim the same for your own faith and religion, then perhaps take a deeper look into why that is.

    Of course I can tell the difference. The issue is being forced into some
    God worship system with direct religious themes to gain access to items, augments, etc that may or may not be integral to character progression in my opinion crosses a line. I’m not sure exactly how in depth they’re going to go into the actual worship system, but from what I’ve seen it looks very in-depth with very realistic worship,sacrifice etc. Imo it just crosses a line.

    I read your comments, but also did my own research and it seems to conflict with what you’re saying. If the religion system equates with the other systems it will most certainly be integral to character progression. Just look at some of the screenshots I posted.
  • JamationJamation Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Rebutko wrote: »
    Just look at some of the screenshots I posted.

    Your post from asheshq states what I've already said "can only be achieved through top tier achievements" and "each religion has a ranking system" which matches with what I said about leaderboards and it only being available to high ranking members.

    All of your other screenshots are from the Ashes of Creation wiki, which is where I put the information from.

    Where is the conflict of information? It's all from the same source.

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