This statement makes no sense since that is every game....You get max level and repeat the content around that for all games.... You will eventually get max level in AoC, and be doing the max level dungeons / raids / pvp. And eagerly waiting patches and new content drops.
Um. No.
In Ashes, when you get to max Adventurer Level, there will still be progression paths for Artisan, Social Org and Racial.
In addition, content continues to change as different Races/Cultures dominate the Stages of a Node - as Seasons change - and as Nodes rise and fall.
And we can expect new content to be added every three to four months - rather than waiting 1+ years.
In Ashes, max Adventurer level is not the only progression path.
Actually, the most important progression path is Node progression; not Adventurer progression.
And there really is no max for that because Stage 6 Nodes can be Sieged back down to Stage 0. And once that happens, the anode will never be the same again.
"Endgame to me communicates static. It is static structure. Okay, you've entered this loop, now and this is your end-game loop that you will repeat over and over. Whereas instead, the approach for Ashes is you have now reached a point where all of these loops are relevant; and the loops are present to you depending on how the community engages the world. And it's up to you to identify the most promising loops because you have a finite amount of time and resources in which you can engage with them. And that's then where strategy becomes a part of the picture: How will I choose to engage with these loops to maximize my return, or to maximize the specific benefit I wish to bring in individual, group, myself, or guild."
---Steven https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUrjiAHZJT4&t=2571s
mark 42:51
"Part of the whole experience with nodes is that there is no real end-game, in that the world is constantly shifting every day. Month one is going to be really different from month two; and that's for the level 50s and level 1s."
----Jeffrey https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsPR_a2n5SM&t=2408s
mark 40:08
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The actual question would be what games are you comparing this "No end game". Minecraft can be used as an example since you just gather and build cool things, etc. The better gear you get than you can travel to stronger mobs and the netherrealm or w.e its called. But in the end the game is just about building cool things exploring. Since there is not real objective.
*edit I know you have gone on record quoting Steven saying they have no end game. But are both your definitions of end game even the same?
Yep. Steven and I have the same definition of Endgame.
And I’m comparing Ashes to previous MMORPGs.
Minecraft’s is not an MMORPG - so that is not a valid example.
The original intent for Everquest, and the MMORPGs released around that time, was that progressing to max (Adventurer) level and experiencing all of the quests would take more than a year. Giving the devs enough time to create and introduce new content by the time most players accomplished that.
Everquest has done a pretty decent job of providing expansions yearly… they just did not anticipate how quickly players would race through the content.
Also, one of the ways to retain more players longer was to make leveling quicker - which eventually lead to most players hitting max level within a month or two - and then for many MMORPGs to be stuck at Endgame for 2-3 years.
Which is how we eventually reached the absurd concept of “Endgame is the real game.”
Even with new content being revealed to you, if you are grinding the game you are going to be doing a lot of the content on repeat regardless. Expectations need to be realistic, how how long those kinds of events in the game will last and how often they change. Having wild expectations will only end up letting you down.
We don’t have the same definition of grind, so your claim is nonsensical.
Ashes is designed to be dynamic rather than static. Even the dungeons and raids change dynamically session to session.
So, while you might be returning to the same dungeon/raid - the content there will not be exactly the same. Partially due to how the game is evaluating the group size. Partially due to what players are doing to trigger an Event.
As Steven mentioned in the last Dev Livestream.
Which is why, even at max Adventurer level, there will not just be one set of BiS gear.
Gear will have to be adjusted to fit specific encounters in specific regions - partially affected by Seasons, etc.
It won’t just be gear Level which determines what gear is BiS for individual encounters.
Could be that the devs will not be able to successfully meet the hype of the proclaimed design and Ashes will just be Lineage 2 with better graphics. Sure.
The actual question would be what games are you comparing this "No end game". Minecraft can be used as an example since you just gather and build cool things, etc. The better gear you get than you can travel to stronger mobs and the netherrealm or w.e its called. But in the end the game is just about building cool things exploring. Since there is not real objective.
*edit I know you have gone on record quoting Steven saying they have no end game. But are both your definitions of end game even the same?
Yep. Steven and I have the same definition of Endgame.
And I’m comparing Ashes to previous MMORPGs.
Minecraft’s is not an MMORPG - so that is not a valid example.
The original intent for Everquest, and the MMORPGs released around that time, was that progressing to max (Adventurer) level and experiencing all of the quests would take more than a year. Giving the devs enough time to create and introduce new content by the time most players accomplished that.
Everquest has done a pretty decent job of providing expansions yearly… they just did not anticipate how quickly players would race through the content.
Also, one of the ways to retain more players longer was to make leveling quicker - which eventually lead to most players hitting max level within a month or two - and then for many MMORPGs to be stuck at Endgame for 2-3 years.
Which is how we eventually reached the absurd concept of “Endgame is the real game.”
Even with new content being revealed to you, if you are grinding the game you are going to be doing a lot of the content on repeat regardless. Expectations need to be realistic, how how long those kinds of events in the game will last and how often they change. Having wild expectations will only end up letting you down.
We don’t have the same definition of grind, so your claim is nonsensical.
Ashes is designed to be dynamic rather than static. Even the dungeons and raids change dynamically session to session.
So, while you might be returning to the same dungeon/raid - the content there will not be exactly the same. Partially due to how the game is evaluating the group size. Partially due to what players are doing to trigger an Event.
As Steven mentioned in the last Dev Livestream.
Which is why, even at max Adventurer level, there will not just be one set of BiS gear.
Gear will have to be adjusted to fit specific encounters in specific regions - partially affected by Seasons, etc.
It won’t just be gear Level which determines what gear is BiS for individual encounters.
Could be that the devs will not be able to successfully meet the hype of the proclaimed design and Ashes will just be Lineage 2 with better graphics. Sure.
That sounds great and all, it be great if that is how the game turned out. But i believe players from those days to now are just more effective. Able to clear content faster and get towards end game. Able to cycle through the events quickly and have to be waiting awhile for something new.
Not that the wait will be bad if there is indeed so much variety of content and new things popping up. People will be happy though they still will be on the end game kind of cycle on what they do (again not a bad thing). I don't think the changes will be to use between mobs and content but it will feed good with the variety it will still bring.
I can't at the moment feel myself to be hyped for any more than that but giving it the minimum. Though that could change based on the content that is shown and that we test. Else i feel id just be on copium and setting myself up to be let down from having too strong expectations.
But thanks for clearly explaining on what you mean on things.
I will agree that ashes is trying a very different approach to endgame, as well as attempting to make the leveling loops as close to the endgame loops as possible (which I like)... but at the end of the day your gameplay loop at max level that you choose to endlessly grind is still an endgame loop. Be that pve areas to farm for mats, crafting, PvP activities via caravans to steal stuff from, or whatever a player wants to do... it's still an endgame loop.
Now, I hope it's as Steven says and that their nodes and evolving world makes the endgame less static than what we see in something like WOW. So as nodes rise and fall, dungeon content can shift with them. That will make for a much more engaging endgame, but it's still an endgame loop. I feel like saying that the changing world makes it not count as endgame is kind of just a semantics argument.
The only games I can think of that don't have an end game are match based games like online FPS games (some FPS games do indeed have an end game, such as Half-Life), BR's and MOBA's.
Those have it too. Your gameplay intensifies once you're closer to the end of the match. And in MOBAs it's even more pronounced, because your farming changes, there's more fights and bigger combat flows.
So pretty much all games have end game. The only thing different is the time scale of them. I think the only game that truly could not have endgame is d&d, because you could keep a story going forever, and iirc there is in fact a storyline that's been going for decades now. I watched a video about it
Endgame is the point in an MMORPG where a player runs out of new content and has to wait years for the devs to add new content - max (Adventurer) level where the only thing left to do is repeat the same dungeons and raids over and over and over and over and over again... until the next expansion.
This isn't what end game is - it isnt even what end game in an MMORPG is.
It is what end game in WoW is.
EQ, EQ2, FFXIV, ESO - your description of "end game" simply doesn't fit with them.
End game in an MMO is the activities people run at max level. It is the content you are left running when you have completed the low hanging fruit in regards to progression.
Ashes end game will largely consist of destroying via siege and leveling up various nodes, and performing the economic activities that enable that to happen (caravans and such). There will also be some bosses to kill on occasion.
This is a very different end game to WoW, but it *IS* end game content.
Note that this comment means Steven is not trying to define what end game is here.
Essentially, he is talking about what he associates with the term end game when he hears it - keep in mind this is coming from someone not known for playing games with decent content at all, let alone end game.
What Steven is saying here is that he doesn't want that single gameplay loop for Ashes at the end game - not that there won't be end game content.
Those goals may change over time due to node system, but the core gameplay loop at endgame will not change. (doing raids to get loot, finding crafters to make gear, going to kill people for fun... endgame)
To me, it's simply impossible to not have an "endgame" until the genre gets to a point where AI can literally create full games around you. Devs will never outpace players and "kill this mob instead of that one" or "destroy this node instead of that one" are not unique to me. They are the same gameplay actions, just with a different coat of paint.
Also, going between kill mobs, gather/process/craft things and maybe do quests (not sure if the game can have enough quests to satiate a 12h/d player for months) - all still a grind and has no uniqueness, even if those mobs/mats/quests appear slightly different. Even if the entire server's world changes around me - that's still the thing I'd be doing.
Also also, if that IS the definition of Steven's "endgame" then L2 was quite damn non-static. My days in L2 once I'd reached max lvl were comprised of pvp, fortress sieges (pure pvx), mob farming, boss runs (with different groups), going to alts to spoil mats for crafting, crafting, playing the market, doing quests that helped me with crafting.
Seems like a fairly varied gameplay loop, doesn't it? Except Steven sees this as static and will just change some mobs/npcs/enemies around and call it not static The gameplay will remain the same.
The end game might be about the politics. Even players who normally don't care about this, will be influenced because their PvE content or trading patters changes. If they want a change or they want to prevent that, they have to involve themselves and pay attention to the forces which threaten the other content they do.
The falling of a node must have impact.
To me, it's simply impossible to not have an "endgame" until the genre gets to a point where AI can literally create full games around you. Devs will never outpace players and "kill this mob instead of that one" or "destroy this node instead of that one" are not unique to me. They are the same gameplay actions, just with a different coat of paint.
It's not about being "unique" - it's about having an endless story.
The primary goal of RPGs is to have a continuing story for players to live out - as if the players are living in a Fantasy novel. Which is why Everquest was called ever quest.
Technically, we have similar "loops" in real life.
Also, going between kill mobs, gather/process/craft things and maybe do quests (not sure if the game can have enough quests to satiate a 12h/d player for months) - all still a grind and has no uniqueness, even if those mobs/mats/quests appear slightly different. Even if the entire server's world changes around me - that's still the thing I'd be doing.
We are not going to have the same definition of grind because I use the original meaning - which is banging on mobs for miniscule xp rather than pursuing quests which provide larger batches of xp, more rewards and provide story.
So... I'm going to say that your concepts of grind and uniqueness are irrelevant - especially to MMORPG design goals. Specifically to Ashes design goals.
Also also, if that IS the definition of Steven's "endgame" then L2 was quite damn non-static. My days in L2 once I'd reached max lvl were comprised of pvp, fortress sieges (pure pvx), mob farming, boss runs (with different groups), going to alts to spoil mats for crafting, crafting, playing the market, doing quests that helped me with crafting.
If the fortresses don't change and the mobs don't change and the bosses don't change - that is static.
If the bosses don't affect the world states similar to how, in Ashes, the Winter Dragon affects the weather with Perpetual WInter, which also affects travel and the strengths and weaknesses of magic and combat... L2 is static, rather than dynamic. If L2 did not have an Events system providing Events based on what the players are doing in the world, L2 is static, rather than dynamic.
I haven't played L2 so I don't know how dynamic it is. But I have never heard that L2 had anything like Nodes/Storybricks. And that is the key to Ashes/EQNext being dynamic, rather than static.
Season Passes, as we're seeing with games like Diablo IV and WoW: Dragonflight, will also help because they add new story and new content every 3-4 months, rather than waiting years.
With Ashes, it's supposed to take a couple months just to get Nodes to Stage 6, so the world and story should be in constant flux. Which means max Adventurer level is not the end of the game.
And, again, max Adventurer level to BiS gear is not the primary story - the primary story for Ashes is how the world and content change with the rise and fall of the Nodes... and that doesn't end until the servers are shut down.
Seems like a fairly varied gameplay loop, doesn't it? Except Steven sees this as static and will just change some mobs/npcs/enemies around and call it not static The gameplay will remain the same.
What you described sounds like a variety of static loops.
Ashes design has variety of dynamic weaves.
RPGs are really not supposed to be about the "gameplay". RPGs are supposed to be about the story.
The Hero's Journey typically has progression, but it's not solely focused on the progression of the Hero's vertical power. CRPGs - especially MMORPGs- have focused on that because that's the quickest and easiest stuff to program. Actually, PvP is the quickest and easiest, which is why we had APOC to test networking back in 2019. And then mob combat.
And, yes, once AI is easy to program similar to Storybricks, there should be endless stories as the life of each NPC continues to evolve as their reactions change to fit their individual mental/emotional states.
Ashes is not striving to be as robust as Storybricks - but, it is intended to be a major step in that direction.
Which brings us back to the primary point: Gear.
By design - Ashes is not going to be focused on individuals reaching max Adventurer level and then getting the one set of BiS gear that can be used for everything until the next expansion increases max level.
Ashes is dynamic - which means even at max level, players will be pushed to adjust the gear they use to deal with changes in the content as Nodes rise and fall and as different Races dominate different Regions and as the Events system churns out different content based on the actions of all the players on the server.
The item Level of gear is not going to be the only factor in determining who wins a battle.
Especially not as depicted in the OP with a Level 40 Sword being the one factor that causes 100% victory in a battle with a Level 35 Sword.
Even if it's a full set of Level 40 gear vs a full set of Level 35 gear - that Level 40 gear might not be BiS if it's specced for a Desert Region, but the WInter Dragon has brought Perpetual WInter for that Desert and the opponent's Level 35 gear is specced to excel in Winter environments.
Which really has nothing to do with "grinding" or "uniqueness" and everything to do with the fact that that Desert will not be static. That Desert will be dynamic. WInter can devastate that Desert and significantly change the gameplay there until the WInter Dragon is defeated.
And that is not really a "loop". It's also not a factor of Endgame because that Event is not dependent upon when individual players hit max Adventurer level. Rather, it's dependent upon the Stages of the Nodes.
To me, it's simply impossible to not have an "endgame" until the genre gets to a point where AI can literally create full games around you. Devs will never outpace players and "kill this mob instead of that one" or "destroy this node instead of that one" are not unique to me. They are the same gameplay actions, just with a different coat of paint.
Also, going between kill mobs, gather/process/craft things and maybe do quests (not sure if the game can have enough quests to satiate a 12h/d player for months) - all still a grind and has no uniqueness, even if those mobs/mats/quests appear slightly different. Even if the entire server's world changes around me - that's still the thing I'd be doing.
Also also, if that IS the definition of Steven's "endgame" then L2 was quite damn non-static. My days in L2 once I'd reached max lvl were comprised of pvp, fortress sieges (pure pvx), mob farming, boss runs (with different groups), going to alts to spoil mats for crafting, crafting, playing the market, doing quests that helped me with crafting.
Seems like a fairly varied gameplay loop, doesn't it? Except Steven sees this as static and will just change some mobs/npcs/enemies around and call it not static The gameplay will remain the same.
I'm really interested in one specific thing about this, and since you normally give succinct answers I doubt it will derail.
Elite has, within it, through a combination of RL data and the StarForge simulation, the entire Milky Way Galaxy.
Players have mapped around 0.06% of it so far.
But obviously the 'act' of mapping and surveying and exploring the galaxy is a loop. Planets are just planets. You land on them, look around, take some samples, screenshots, survey data, then you go to the next. Sure, some of them are challenging to land on, some are dangerous to land on, etc, but they're just 'challenges'.
Since there are around 400 billion stars, and on average that means there should be, say, 750 billion landable planets and moons, you'd have to expect quite a lot of repetition. There comes a point where there is so MUCH content that by the laws of physics itself, repetition occurs.
If we talk only about Exploration and players who aim to master it, would you say that they have reached 'endgame' once they have a ship/build that can handle most of the surveying and systems that can exist? Or is the sheer 'total content' enough that you'd accept 'it's possible to not have an endgame'.
This is gonna get tied back into the point of the thread, actually, so I ask.
RPGs are really not supposed to be about the "gameplay". RPGs are supposed to be about the story.
I completely agree with this when it comes to smth like d&d, where you're pretty much interacting with a supercomputer (that is the human brain) while operating your own supercomputer. The story can be incredible, even if all that you're doing is sitting and writing on a piece of paper (or maybe moving miniatures).
But videogames are built on gameplay. That's their main feature as a medium, otherwise they'd be just books (and there are such games as well, and there are even memes about their "gameplay").
This is why I concentrate on the gameplay part of this discussion. We're talking about a videogame and they're always limited in their scope (even as big of a game as Ashes wants to be). And that scope defines the scale of its loops. And as you pointed out previously, even EQ had its limits, simply because all videogames have them (until we get supercomputers with human-lvl AI as PCs).
Which really has nothing to do with "grinding" or "uniqueness" and everything to do with the fact that that Desert will not be static. That Desert will be dynamic. WInter can devastate that Desert and significantly change the gameplay there until the WInter Dragon is defeated.
To bring this back to a classic on these forums - food. You're talking about flavors of icecream, while to me they are all simply icecream. Farming frozen mobs in a frozen desert is no different to me than fighting sand mobs in a proper desert.
I guess you could say that the frozen dragon could represent sprinkles added to the icecream, because it's a new element in the overall picture, but I'd imagine the desert would've already had its own bosses, so even that is still just icecream to me.
If we talk only about Exploration and players who aim to master it, would you say that they have reached 'endgame' once they have a ship/build that can handle most of the surveying and systems that can exist? Or is the sheer 'total content' enough that you'd accept 'it's possible to not have an endgame'.
Yep, once you've reached a point where you can keep doing your preferred content w/ no gameplay changes to it - to me that's endgame.
This obviously scales based on the player's preferences and activities. A player who's only interested in quests could argue that they've reached "endgame" since lvl1 cause they're able to do quests from that lvl, though even then I'd imagine that Ashes will push such people to come up with ways to either avoid pvp or somehow interact with it in a non-confronting way.
An "endgameless" game to me would be smth like "you're a 4-dimensional being playing a simulation of the entire universe". So, in a way, it's d&d Spore +fps+rts+civ+crusader kings+simcity+overlord+4x strategy games on a universal scale where you can "zoom in and out" of any point on the timeline, so in effect the time is endless. The variety of gameplay would be as big as the amount of "things and activities" in the universe.
But I digress too far, cause that was a thought I had after writing my comment I assume you wanted to tie this back to the topic by relating those ships/builds in Elite to gear/augment builds in Ashes, where people would enter "endgame" once they reached a point where their progress is not as obvious, if present at all.
Therefore the more power, especially nonspecific power, granted by gear, either in PvP or PvE, then the more a game will feel 'static' by your definition.
Variety in gameplay requires 'weaknesses', if power isn't heavily dependent on synergy between weapon and build, and instead 'just the gear' is enough to create disparity, then it's lower.
Obviously it should be as high or low as Steven wants it, and since it is, then we're good.
@NiKr I think we have to comes to terms the way Dygz sees a game is completely different from our own, and his meaning for end game is also different. Which goes to his exploring kind of thing. If there are changes to the world on going it isn't end game to him.
Our view point is from a gameplay experience and what we will be doing realistically. For him it is more about exploring new content, end game is when there is nothing left to explore.
That is mainly why i brought up about the frequency of how often things change might not be as big and impactful as he thinks, with how players get through content. Things will be more dynamic but it will be more like a stuttering end game with constant walls and doing the same content around that.
Though the counter to the point above is my vie point is competitive, for a casual player playing at a much slower pace, they might never reach end game (in dygz) definition since there will be too much content for him to ever complete as they add new content in. Making it a experience that you can explore forever in or for many years.
That is my best guess, i still think it is copium though xD
But videogames are built on gameplay. That's their main feature as a medium, otherwise they'd be just books (and there are such games as well, and there are even memes about their "gameplay").
All RPGs, including D&D, have some form of gameplay as a foundation.
So... no... video games have to have gameplay as a foundation, but especially with RPGs, the story is intended to be the focus; not the mechanics.
Which is why Ombwah, Senior Quest Designer for IS, prefers to work on MEOWs (Multiplayer Evolving Online World), rather than MMORPGs. Because it's not supposed to be about the Game - it's really supposed to be about the RolePlay.
Again, historically, it's quicker and easier to program combat as the focus of gameplay than it is all of the other aspects RolePlaying similar to D&D. So gamers like to focus more on the gameplay than on the RolePlay.
But, the intention of RPGs is to focus on the RolePlay, rather than the gameplay.
Obviously, that means that it has to feel good enough that players can focus on living in a virtual world rather than being annoyed by crappy functionality.
This is why I concentrate on the gameplay part of this discussion. We're talking about a videogame and they're always limited in their scope (even as big of a game as Ashes wants to be). And that scope defines the scale of its loops. And as you pointed out previously, even EQ had its limits, simply because all videogames have them (until we get supercomputers with human-lvl AI as PCs).
Video games have limitations in scope.
We agree.
By design, Ashes doesn't really have Endgame loops. Loops come about in static games where encounters constantly reset. You can always go back and bang on the exact same mobs. You can always repeat the exact same dungeons and raids. That Heroic dungeon will always have the same mobs and they will always repeat the same behavior. Which is why there can be guides online to explain the Most Efficient Tactics Available to defeat that Dungeon on Heroic. And then another guide for defeating that Dungeon on Mythic/Nightmare.
Ashes content does not loop because the content is dynamic.
You could return to that Dungeon, but that Dungeon won't have the same mobs. Which mobs are in that Dungeon will depend on the Stage of the Node and what players are doing to trigger Events. It will also change based on the time of year.
Fippy Darkpaw will not always be the boss for that Dungeon. He will not always be waiting for you to loop back around to fight him again. And whatever is there will require different gear and different tactics to succeed.
Which means you cannot just acquire "BiS gear" for max Level Adventurer and be guaranteed to defeat Fippy Darkpaw in that Heroic Dungeon. You can't loop that because it's not designed as a static loop.
Rather that Dungeon will be dynamic, based on a variety factors - primarily what players are doing elsewhere in the game.
The goal for RPGs (including MMORPGs) is not really to have "unique gameplay". The goal for MMORPGs is to endlessly provide an evolving story as player characters progress as protagonists in the story.
So, yes, just as in the real world a doctor will typically be doing doctor stuff technically in some form of "loop" - it's going to be a dynamic "loop" rather than a static "loop". And it's really going to be woven with all manner of factors and events that change as the patients change.
To bring this back to a classic on these forums - food. You're talking about flavors of ice cream, while to me they are all simply ice cream. Farming frozen mobs in a frozen desert is no different to me than fighting sand mobs in a proper desert.
No. It's not as insiginificant as flavors of ice cream.
It's more like returning to the same shop and being given ice cream to eat one day and being given crabs to eat the next day.
Bringing crab leg crackers and picks would be META tools for crabs, but not for eating ice cream in a bowl and a spoon and bowl are not going to be META tools when you are trying to eat crabs.
Players will have to bring the proper gear to fit with the encounter. And, in Ashes, those encounters are dynamic rather than static. The encounters change significantly, rather than remaining the same every time players return.
Remember that the context of this topic is Gear.
By design, in Ashes, the dynamics of fighting in a Frozen Desert will be signifcantly different than fighting in a Sweltering Desert because temperature actually affects combat prowess - Elemental environments can strengthen/weaken Active Skills and buff/debuff gear.
By design, the gear that you wield in a Sweltering Desert will be debuffed and weaker when that Desert is plagued by a Perpetual Winter.
I guess you could say that the frozen dragon could represent sprinkles added to the icecream, because it's a new element in the overall picture, but I'd imagine the desert would've already had its own bosses, so even that is still just ice cream to me.
You can say anything, sure
Even when it is irrelevant to the topic.
No. It's not as insiginificant as flavors of ice cream.
That's my point though. It's not insignificant to you, but it is to me. There's been no indication that mobs/bosses will be so difficult that you'd need a whole new build just to clear them.
But even if that is the case, it still simply takes some time to prepare for several potential changes in the game. The game will have limited amount of elements, so you simply grind gear for said elements and then you have BiSs for any occasion. Which is why I say that it's all just icecream to me. My gameplay of "kill a boss" will not change.
But, just as Mag said, our povs are simply too different. You have your own biases and I have mine. We both played mmos in the past, but that resulted in completely different experiences. You might say that L2 was simply not an rpg, but then "rpg" would have no meaning, cause L2 had a story, quests relating to that story, character progression and all that "rpg" stuff. It's just that barely anyone cared for it in the game.
How i expect things to play out will you will have all the base content of the game that is the normal state. More of it unlocked over time as nodes progress, etc until dungeons and areas are fully open (unlocked).
Things will be pretty static for those kinds of content until wars and such change nodes though this will be a pretty long loop before all nodes are fully advanced and such.
The dynamic elements will change content in areas time to time, or add new content. At no point do i expect this to cause huge changes constantly but it will be fun things over the time of the game with more being discovered. But overall not all the base content is going to change into dynamic it will be parts here and there.
The dynamic changes I'm unsure how long they were persist but im expecting different lengths of time, could be days, weeks or maybe a month (depending on the content) . As things finish it will gob ack to normal states and other dynamic content will pick up to take its place.
The question is how much of the dynamic content will there be in ratio to the normal state of the world. I'm going to guess you will be doing normal content around the world that is the base state 70% of the time, and dynamic types of content 30% of the time. So overall my guess is you will have your end game loops you do with pve stuff like 50% of the time, 30 for dynamic types of content, and 20% will be other.
Only way i bump that 30% up is if i see something crazy and innovative. maybe akin to procedural dungeon building.
I'm not saying anything is impossible they have a lot of secrets and the animal husbandry system and such. but before i can logically believe it I need more hard facts so it isn't copium.
... ... ... since we actually don't know anything great yet about Gear ingame, do we ?
of Course, Alpha One Testers may know something - but the Game sure has to be changed over the last Years. And maybe i am to lazy as not to have searched under literally every Rock in the Internet for a Video or so,
but i also haven't seen many "Gear-Videos" also. In fact, none. lol
I have the Feeling this whole Topic is kinda pointless. I mean : what for good Comparisons that are actually on CURRENT Game-Development Status do we have ?
I like the Thought and Idea that "Gear" can make your Character like +40% to 50% or so stronger, than your Character would be completely naked aside from wearing Underwear.
No. It's not as insiginificant as flavors of ice cream.
That's my point though. It's not insignificant to you, but it is to me. There's been no indication that mobs/bosses will be so difficult that you'd need a whole new build just to clear them.
But even if that is the case, it still simply takes some time to prepare for several potential changes in the game. The game will have limited amount of elements, so you simply grind gear for said elements and then you have BiSs for any occasion. Which is why I say that it's all just icecream to me. My gameplay of "kill a boss" will not change.
But, just as Mag said, our povs are simply too different. You have your own biases and I have mine. We both played mmos in the past, but that resulted in completely different experiences. You might say that L2 was simply not an rpg, but then "rpg" would have no meaning, cause L2 had a story, quests relating to that story, character progression and all that "rpg" stuff. It's just that barely anyone cared for it in the game.
In many games, particularly sandbox (or in this case themebox or whatever), insignificance is a 'problem' some players face.
That was related to my point. For a 'strong' player, it's easy to feel like things become repetitive, for one with lots of 'weaknesses' that they're constantly working to overcome, the content is much bigger, as small changes create lots of 'stuff for them to do and experience'. The only 'problem' then is if the stronger players always clear the content before they get to do anything much other than watch.
I don't know if it is a 'problem' for a time-hardcore challenge-casual player, though, and if not, then it's easily possible to both be right. A chess player with the type of memory/visualization skills to play simultaneous multiple games at once at an exhibition is usually very different than the bulk of their dozens of opponents.
Some people might not need to be able to have any 'real effect' on the outcome of an event they are participating in, personally, to feel like they are experiencing content.
"To me, each new Node, each new variation, each new touchdown of a dragon is unique, a part of our beautiful unchanging world..." ~ Not Dygz, Not 2023.
Which is why Ombwah, Senior Quest Designer for IS, prefers to work on MEOWs (Multiplayer Evolving Online World), rather than MMORPGs. Because it's not supposed to be about the Game - it's really supposed to be about the RolePlay.
See, this is not universal.
If it were, you are basically saying "this is the way to play MMO's".
Now, it is true that someone working on quests would think this when developing those quests - but that is because that person's job is just quests - not the game as a whole.
The person populating dungeons should be doing so under the assumption that those dungeons are what the game is about. The person designing boss encounters should be designing those encounters under the assumption that they are what the game is about. The PvP developers should be developing PvP under the assumption that the game is about PvP. The crafting team should be developing crafting based on the assumption that the whole game is about crafting. The economy developers should be developing the economy based on the assumption that it is what the game is about.
To each of these people/teams, they are absolutely right if they say that is what the game is about - because to them, it is (at least in eegards to their work). Also, in every case above, there will be players that will play the game almost purely for any one of the above aspects.
So no, your notion that the game is about quests and/or story is thoroughly rejected. It can be about that for you, but that doesn't mean anything other than it being about that for you.
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That's my point though. It's not insignificant to you, but it is to me. There's been no indication that mobs/bosses will be so difficult that you'd need a whole new build just to clear them.
It might be a valid point for a different topic.
This topic is about gear.
Just because you aren’t aware of Steven and Jeffrey’s statements about the significance of the changes to the mobs and how that affects gear does not mean those statements are non-existent.
You won’t need a whole new build because build includes Secondary Archetype and you won’t have to change Secondary Archetype.
But, if you stick to just one set if Level 50 gear for everything, you will be gimped.
Same if you try to always use the exact same Active Skills and Augments.
Because things like Winter vs Summer buff and debuff Active Skills, Augments and gear.
By design, the gear you use to defeat a Summer Dragon will not be META against a Winter Dragon.
But even if that is the case, it still simply takes some time to prepare for several potential changes in the game. The game will have limited amount of elements, so you simply grind gear for said elements and then you have BiSs for any occasion. Which is why I say that it's all just icecream to me. My gameplay of "kill a boss" will not change.
It is true that it simply takes time to prepare.
But this topic is not about time to prepare.
This topic states that a Level 40 Sword should win against a Level 35 Sword 100% of the time.
And I am sharing that the design of Ashes is such that Item Level will not be important enough to guarantee that a Level 40 Sword always wins against a Level 35 Sword.
If that Level 40 Sword is specced for a Sweltering Desert but the combat is in taking place during Perpetual Winter, it will probably not be as effective as a Level 35 Sword that is specced to excel in the Frozen Tundra.
Because that Sweltering Sword will be suffering debugs during Perpetual Winter while the Frost Sword will gain buffs during Perpetual Winter.
Similarly, by design, in Ashes, you don’t just use the same set of BiS gear each time you run Tower of Carphin at max level.
Because the content is not static.
The content is dynamic.
Significantly enough that you will have to bring a different set of tools and gear with you to defeat the different mobs and bosses.
You don’t have to prep differently to deal with something as insignificant as sprinkles on ice cream. You do have to use a different set of utensils to eat ice cream than you do to eat crabs.
The dynamics of Ashes content is are designed to be as different as eating crabs rather than ice cream. Ashes content is not designed to be static, such that you will still be eating ice cream each time you run the Tower of Carphin, just adding sprinkles.
Those dynamic changes occur throughout the life of the game. They don’t start at max Adventurer level and they don’t end when individuals reach max Adventurer level.
But, just as Mag said, our povs are simply too different. You have your own biases and I have mine. We both played mmos in the past, but that resulted in completely different experiences. You might say that L2 was simply not an rpg, but then "rpg" would have no meaning, cause L2 had a story, quests relating to that story, character progression and all that "rpg" stuff. It's just that barely anyone cared for it in the game.
Actually, no.
The disconnect is not that our povs are different.
The disconnect is that you have switched to a different topic and/or you are unaware of the ramifications of Ashes having dynamic content and how that is designed to affect the gear you wear as the content changes.
I haven’t said anything, here, about L2 not being an RPG.
What I did say is that I’m not aware of L2 having a system similar to Nodes/StoryBricks, where the rise and fall of Nodes interacts with the Events system and the Weather system, monitoring what the players are doing, to significantly change the content to the extent that players were pushed to adapt by changing their gear.
If in L2, your alts can always find Fippy Darkpaw at the same location your main encountered Fippy Darkpaw and they can always do the exact same quests associated with Fippy Darkpaw…
If Fippy Darkpaw will always cycle through the same behaviors such that a META guide always works…
If you can use a META guide to anticipate how to best defeat the boss in Kithicor Fortress…
That game is static and probably has an Endgame.
EvE might not have an Endgame.
L2 might not have an Endgame either, but you would have to tell me how Sieges affect the available content in the world for me to evaluate.
If Sieges did not effect the mobs enough to push players to change their gear when they loop back through the same region (or dungeon or raid), L2 is not as dynamic as the Ashes design.
And L2 probably had an Endgame.
I just don’t know how similar the L2 Siege system is to Ashes’ Nodes/Events/Weather systems or EQNext StoryBricks.
Obviously a heavy offense style ends up being cheaper in games like Ashes, you need less armor and accessories.
"Let's create a gap." was the answer suggested to this overarching and complex problem.
Until a powerful weapon costs 3x the amount of the entire kit of defenses needed to not die to that weapon, the same thing will happen. Half the time you don't even need the strong weapon, you just need 'the form of offense that is unreasonable to spec against'.
The Intrepid value is basically right mathematically for the type of game Ashes is, and wasn't entirely for the type of game L2 is (I got more data so I'm sure now!).
Because it makes sure that everyone has some 'base level of defense' against all offense forms, and if you wanna overwhelm that defense with your build, you probably had to put in a weakness somewhere. I'm sure there's a 'whiteboard/spreadsheet' somewhere.
My condolences as always to whoever is in charge of that 'whiteboard/spreadsheet', as we march toward launch.
The number of skills we can use is important.
When we create a new character, it is not at the end game because it has a subset of the skills.
Once it can use all skills, we can say it has reached the end game. There is no progression anymore.
When I feel like having a change, I will switch the secondary archetype and go somewhere where I can use it successfully. I'll not go where is useless. The ability to change secondary archetype is part of the end game too.
Trying to get better gear to be able to defeat stronger enemies can be seen as a progression but the pool of skills being the same, it is basically the end game for the character. (exceptions would be cases where gear and skills must be used together)
The above part is from the perspective of how we fight.
For players who want
- to solve jumping puzzles, the end game starts when they get access to all skills which help them solve jumping puzzles.
- to unlock chests and steal loot, the end game starts when they get access to all lock-pick, stealth and disarm trap skills etc.
- to explore the world, the end game starts when they create the 1st character and ends when they run out of things to discover
- to do politics, the end game starts when they reach the stage to be known by other players and can have an impact too on which node falls or survives
Some players quit before they reach end game. Others when they are in the end game where they use the same skills all the time. Some will make alts (if they don't hate the leveling up phase) to see how skills work on a new class.
If Sieges did not effect the mobs enough to push players to change their gear when they loop back through the same region (or dungeon or raid), L2 is not as dynamic as the Ashes design.
Ok, here's another question that kinda addresses the gear part of it all and the difference in our views in what Ashes could potentially be.
Do you believe that the Winter Dragon will be unbeatable if players only have desert-related gear? I'm not talking about metas or super quick kills or whatever. I'm asking whether you think it will even BE POSSIBLE to kill WD with desert gear.
I think your other gear should be in your homestead, so if you have multiple gear for multiple things u gotta go back and gear up for your next. Thing.
I don't think a level 40 sword should per default win from a level 35 sword.
I think u should be billable with a wooden sword. If your afk or something like that.
Gear should be for the aesthetics and look of Your character. It should not define your overall strength by such a large margin.
Don't u think 2, 5 or more should be able to kill a higher levels player in whatever gear he has, with coordinated attacks and ambushes.
Or do people just wanna play in God-mode,
With the end game gear?
I think they can keep the numbers low, and close to each other.
More HP and more MP.
Not impenetrable armour sets,
Maybe your high level items should give you different things, like a extra move or uniek, glow.
Not make you win against every thing per default.
A level 1 player not being hit, should be able to take down a max level player,
If he's afk or something.
Or one max level player, thinking he is super strong, gets beat by 10 PvE farmers.
That's a good game.
Instead of having immortals walking around, just taking 0% dmg. Unable to be killed.
I don't see the fun in that from both sides.
Probly duke nukem or wolfenstein
God-mode players.
Look how good i am
Comments
And I’m comparing Ashes to previous MMORPGs.
Minecraft’s is not an MMORPG - so that is not a valid example.
The original intent for Everquest, and the MMORPGs released around that time, was that progressing to max (Adventurer) level and experiencing all of the quests would take more than a year. Giving the devs enough time to create and introduce new content by the time most players accomplished that.
Everquest has done a pretty decent job of providing expansions yearly… they just did not anticipate how quickly players would race through the content.
Also, one of the ways to retain more players longer was to make leveling quicker - which eventually lead to most players hitting max level within a month or two - and then for many MMORPGs to be stuck at Endgame for 2-3 years.
Which is how we eventually reached the absurd concept of “Endgame is the real game.”
We don’t have the same definition of grind, so your claim is nonsensical.
Ashes is designed to be dynamic rather than static. Even the dungeons and raids change dynamically session to session.
So, while you might be returning to the same dungeon/raid - the content there will not be exactly the same. Partially due to how the game is evaluating the group size. Partially due to what players are doing to trigger an Event.
As Steven mentioned in the last Dev Livestream.
Which is why, even at max Adventurer level, there will not just be one set of BiS gear.
Gear will have to be adjusted to fit specific encounters in specific regions - partially affected by Seasons, etc.
It won’t just be gear Level which determines what gear is BiS for individual encounters.
Could be that the devs will not be able to successfully meet the hype of the proclaimed design and Ashes will just be Lineage 2 with better graphics. Sure.
That sounds great and all, it be great if that is how the game turned out. But i believe players from those days to now are just more effective. Able to clear content faster and get towards end game. Able to cycle through the events quickly and have to be waiting awhile for something new.
Not that the wait will be bad if there is indeed so much variety of content and new things popping up. People will be happy though they still will be on the end game kind of cycle on what they do (again not a bad thing). I don't think the changes will be to use between mobs and content but it will feed good with the variety it will still bring.
I can't at the moment feel myself to be hyped for any more than that but giving it the minimum. Though that could change based on the content that is shown and that we test. Else i feel id just be on copium and setting myself up to be let down from having too strong expectations.
But thanks for clearly explaining on what you mean on things.
Now, I hope it's as Steven says and that their nodes and evolving world makes the endgame less static than what we see in something like WOW. So as nodes rise and fall, dungeon content can shift with them. That will make for a much more engaging endgame, but it's still an endgame loop. I feel like saying that the changing world makes it not count as endgame is kind of just a semantics argument.
This isn't what end game is - it isnt even what end game in an MMORPG is.
It is what end game in WoW is.
EQ, EQ2, FFXIV, ESO - your description of "end game" simply doesn't fit with them.
End game in an MMO is the activities people run at max level. It is the content you are left running when you have completed the low hanging fruit in regards to progression.
Ashes end game will largely consist of destroying via siege and leveling up various nodes, and performing the economic activities that enable that to happen (caravans and such). There will also be some bosses to kill on occasion.
This is a very different end game to WoW, but it *IS* end game content.
Essentially, he is talking about what he associates with the term end game when he hears it - keep in mind this is coming from someone not known for playing games with decent content at all, let alone end game.
What Steven is saying here is that he doesn't want that single gameplay loop for Ashes at the end game - not that there won't be end game content.
Those goals may change over time due to node system, but the core gameplay loop at endgame will not change. (doing raids to get loot, finding crafters to make gear, going to kill people for fun... endgame)
Also, going between kill mobs, gather/process/craft things and maybe do quests (not sure if the game can have enough quests to satiate a 12h/d player for months) - all still a grind and has no uniqueness, even if those mobs/mats/quests appear slightly different. Even if the entire server's world changes around me - that's still the thing I'd be doing.
Also also, if that IS the definition of Steven's "endgame" then L2 was quite damn non-static. My days in L2 once I'd reached max lvl were comprised of pvp, fortress sieges (pure pvx), mob farming, boss runs (with different groups), going to alts to spoil mats for crafting, crafting, playing the market, doing quests that helped me with crafting.
Seems like a fairly varied gameplay loop, doesn't it? Except Steven sees this as static and will just change some mobs/npcs/enemies around and call it not static
The falling of a node must have impact.
The primary goal of RPGs is to have a continuing story for players to live out - as if the players are living in a Fantasy novel. Which is why Everquest was called ever quest.
Technically, we have similar "loops" in real life.
We are not going to have the same definition of grind because I use the original meaning - which is banging on mobs for miniscule xp rather than pursuing quests which provide larger batches of xp, more rewards and provide story.
So... I'm going to say that your concepts of grind and uniqueness are irrelevant - especially to MMORPG design goals. Specifically to Ashes design goals.
If the fortresses don't change and the mobs don't change and the bosses don't change - that is static.
If the bosses don't affect the world states similar to how, in Ashes, the Winter Dragon affects the weather with Perpetual WInter, which also affects travel and the strengths and weaknesses of magic and combat... L2 is static, rather than dynamic. If L2 did not have an Events system providing Events based on what the players are doing in the world, L2 is static, rather than dynamic.
I haven't played L2 so I don't know how dynamic it is. But I have never heard that L2 had anything like Nodes/Storybricks. And that is the key to Ashes/EQNext being dynamic, rather than static.
Season Passes, as we're seeing with games like Diablo IV and WoW: Dragonflight, will also help because they add new story and new content every 3-4 months, rather than waiting years.
With Ashes, it's supposed to take a couple months just to get Nodes to Stage 6, so the world and story should be in constant flux. Which means max Adventurer level is not the end of the game.
And, again, max Adventurer level to BiS gear is not the primary story - the primary story for Ashes is how the world and content change with the rise and fall of the Nodes... and that doesn't end until the servers are shut down.
What you described sounds like a variety of static loops.
Ashes design has variety of dynamic weaves.
RPGs are really not supposed to be about the "gameplay". RPGs are supposed to be about the story.
The Hero's Journey typically has progression, but it's not solely focused on the progression of the Hero's vertical power. CRPGs - especially MMORPGs- have focused on that because that's the quickest and easiest stuff to program. Actually, PvP is the quickest and easiest, which is why we had APOC to test networking back in 2019. And then mob combat.
And, yes, once AI is easy to program similar to Storybricks, there should be endless stories as the life of each NPC continues to evolve as their reactions change to fit their individual mental/emotional states.
Ashes is not striving to be as robust as Storybricks - but, it is intended to be a major step in that direction.
Which brings us back to the primary point: Gear.
By design - Ashes is not going to be focused on individuals reaching max Adventurer level and then getting the one set of BiS gear that can be used for everything until the next expansion increases max level.
Ashes is dynamic - which means even at max level, players will be pushed to adjust the gear they use to deal with changes in the content as Nodes rise and fall and as different Races dominate different Regions and as the Events system churns out different content based on the actions of all the players on the server.
The item Level of gear is not going to be the only factor in determining who wins a battle.
Especially not as depicted in the OP with a Level 40 Sword being the one factor that causes 100% victory in a battle with a Level 35 Sword.
Even if it's a full set of Level 40 gear vs a full set of Level 35 gear - that Level 40 gear might not be BiS if it's specced for a Desert Region, but the WInter Dragon has brought Perpetual WInter for that Desert and the opponent's Level 35 gear is specced to excel in Winter environments.
Which really has nothing to do with "grinding" or "uniqueness" and everything to do with the fact that that Desert will not be static. That Desert will be dynamic. WInter can devastate that Desert and significantly change the gameplay there until the WInter Dragon is defeated.
And that is not really a "loop". It's also not a factor of Endgame because that Event is not dependent upon when individual players hit max Adventurer level. Rather, it's dependent upon the Stages of the Nodes.
I'm really interested in one specific thing about this, and since you normally give succinct answers I doubt it will derail.
Elite has, within it, through a combination of RL data and the StarForge simulation, the entire Milky Way Galaxy.
Players have mapped around 0.06% of it so far.
But obviously the 'act' of mapping and surveying and exploring the galaxy is a loop. Planets are just planets. You land on them, look around, take some samples, screenshots, survey data, then you go to the next. Sure, some of them are challenging to land on, some are dangerous to land on, etc, but they're just 'challenges'.
Since there are around 400 billion stars, and on average that means there should be, say, 750 billion landable planets and moons, you'd have to expect quite a lot of repetition. There comes a point where there is so MUCH content that by the laws of physics itself, repetition occurs.
If we talk only about Exploration and players who aim to master it, would you say that they have reached 'endgame' once they have a ship/build that can handle most of the surveying and systems that can exist? Or is the sheer 'total content' enough that you'd accept 'it's possible to not have an endgame'.
This is gonna get tied back into the point of the thread, actually, so I ask.
But videogames are built on gameplay. That's their main feature as a medium, otherwise they'd be just books (and there are such games as well, and there are even memes about their "gameplay").
This is why I concentrate on the gameplay part of this discussion. We're talking about a videogame and they're always limited in their scope (even as big of a game as Ashes wants to be). And that scope defines the scale of its loops. And as you pointed out previously, even EQ had its limits, simply because all videogames have them (until we get supercomputers with human-lvl AI as PCs).
To bring this back to a classic on these forums - food. You're talking about flavors of icecream, while to me they are all simply icecream. Farming frozen mobs in a frozen desert is no different to me than fighting sand mobs in a proper desert.
I guess you could say that the frozen dragon could represent sprinkles added to the icecream, because it's a new element in the overall picture, but I'd imagine the desert would've already had its own bosses, so even that is still just icecream to me.
Yep, once you've reached a point where you can keep doing your preferred content w/ no gameplay changes to it - to me that's endgame.
This obviously scales based on the player's preferences and activities. A player who's only interested in quests could argue that they've reached "endgame" since lvl1 cause they're able to do quests from that lvl, though even then I'd imagine that Ashes will push such people to come up with ways to either avoid pvp or somehow interact with it in a non-confronting way.
An "endgameless" game to me would be smth like "you're a 4-dimensional being playing a simulation of the entire universe". So, in a way, it's d&d Spore +fps+rts+civ+crusader kings+simcity+overlord+4x strategy games on a universal scale where you can "zoom in and out" of any point on the timeline, so in effect the time is endless. The variety of gameplay would be as big as the amount of "things and activities" in the universe.
But I digress too far, cause that was a thought I had after writing my comment
Power homogenizes experiences.
Therefore the more power, especially nonspecific power, granted by gear, either in PvP or PvE, then the more a game will feel 'static' by your definition.
Variety in gameplay requires 'weaknesses', if power isn't heavily dependent on synergy between weapon and build, and instead 'just the gear' is enough to create disparity, then it's lower.
Obviously it should be as high or low as Steven wants it, and since it is, then we're good.
Our view point is from a gameplay experience and what we will be doing realistically. For him it is more about exploring new content, end game is when there is nothing left to explore.
That is mainly why i brought up about the frequency of how often things change might not be as big and impactful as he thinks, with how players get through content. Things will be more dynamic but it will be more like a stuttering end game with constant walls and doing the same content around that.
Though the counter to the point above is my vie point is competitive, for a casual player playing at a much slower pace, they might never reach end game (in dygz) definition since there will be too much content for him to ever complete as they add new content in. Making it a experience that you can explore forever in or for many years.
That is my best guess, i still think it is copium though xD
So... no... video games have to have gameplay as a foundation, but especially with RPGs, the story is intended to be the focus; not the mechanics.
Which is why Ombwah, Senior Quest Designer for IS, prefers to work on MEOWs (Multiplayer Evolving Online World), rather than MMORPGs. Because it's not supposed to be about the Game - it's really supposed to be about the RolePlay.
Again, historically, it's quicker and easier to program combat as the focus of gameplay than it is all of the other aspects RolePlaying similar to D&D. So gamers like to focus more on the gameplay than on the RolePlay.
But, the intention of RPGs is to focus on the RolePlay, rather than the gameplay.
Obviously, that means that it has to feel good enough that players can focus on living in a virtual world rather than being annoyed by crappy functionality.
Video games have limitations in scope.
We agree.
By design, Ashes doesn't really have Endgame loops. Loops come about in static games where encounters constantly reset. You can always go back and bang on the exact same mobs. You can always repeat the exact same dungeons and raids. That Heroic dungeon will always have the same mobs and they will always repeat the same behavior. Which is why there can be guides online to explain the Most Efficient Tactics Available to defeat that Dungeon on Heroic. And then another guide for defeating that Dungeon on Mythic/Nightmare.
Ashes content does not loop because the content is dynamic.
You could return to that Dungeon, but that Dungeon won't have the same mobs. Which mobs are in that Dungeon will depend on the Stage of the Node and what players are doing to trigger Events. It will also change based on the time of year.
Fippy Darkpaw will not always be the boss for that Dungeon. He will not always be waiting for you to loop back around to fight him again. And whatever is there will require different gear and different tactics to succeed.
Which means you cannot just acquire "BiS gear" for max Level Adventurer and be guaranteed to defeat Fippy Darkpaw in that Heroic Dungeon. You can't loop that because it's not designed as a static loop.
Rather that Dungeon will be dynamic, based on a variety factors - primarily what players are doing elsewhere in the game.
The goal for RPGs (including MMORPGs) is not really to have "unique gameplay". The goal for MMORPGs is to endlessly provide an evolving story as player characters progress as protagonists in the story.
So, yes, just as in the real world a doctor will typically be doing doctor stuff technically in some form of "loop" - it's going to be a dynamic "loop" rather than a static "loop". And it's really going to be woven with all manner of factors and events that change as the patients change.
No. It's not as insiginificant as flavors of ice cream.
It's more like returning to the same shop and being given ice cream to eat one day and being given crabs to eat the next day.
Bringing crab leg crackers and picks would be META tools for crabs, but not for eating ice cream in a bowl and a spoon and bowl are not going to be META tools when you are trying to eat crabs.
Players will have to bring the proper gear to fit with the encounter. And, in Ashes, those encounters are dynamic rather than static. The encounters change significantly, rather than remaining the same every time players return.
Remember that the context of this topic is Gear.
By design, in Ashes, the dynamics of fighting in a Frozen Desert will be signifcantly different than fighting in a Sweltering Desert because temperature actually affects combat prowess - Elemental environments can strengthen/weaken Active Skills and buff/debuff gear.
By design, the gear that you wield in a Sweltering Desert will be debuffed and weaker when that Desert is plagued by a Perpetual Winter.
You can say anything, sure
Even when it is irrelevant to the topic.
But even if that is the case, it still simply takes some time to prepare for several potential changes in the game. The game will have limited amount of elements, so you simply grind gear for said elements and then you have BiSs for any occasion. Which is why I say that it's all just icecream to me. My gameplay of "kill a boss" will not change.
But, just as Mag said, our povs are simply too different. You have your own biases and I have mine. We both played mmos in the past, but that resulted in completely different experiences. You might say that L2 was simply not an rpg, but then "rpg" would have no meaning, cause L2 had a story, quests relating to that story, character progression and all that "rpg" stuff. It's just that barely anyone cared for it in the game.
Things will be pretty static for those kinds of content until wars and such change nodes though this will be a pretty long loop before all nodes are fully advanced and such.
The dynamic elements will change content in areas time to time, or add new content. At no point do i expect this to cause huge changes constantly but it will be fun things over the time of the game with more being discovered. But overall not all the base content is going to change into dynamic it will be parts here and there.
The dynamic changes I'm unsure how long they were persist but im expecting different lengths of time, could be days, weeks or maybe a month (depending on the content) . As things finish it will gob ack to normal states and other dynamic content will pick up to take its place.
The question is how much of the dynamic content will there be in ratio to the normal state of the world. I'm going to guess you will be doing normal content around the world that is the base state 70% of the time, and dynamic types of content 30% of the time. So overall my guess is you will have your end game loops you do with pve stuff like 50% of the time, 30 for dynamic types of content, and 20% will be other.
I'm not saying anything is impossible they have a lot of secrets and the animal husbandry system and such. but before i can logically believe it I need more hard facts so it isn't copium.
... ... ... since we actually don't know anything great yet about Gear ingame, do we ?
of Course, Alpha One Testers may know something - but the Game sure has to be changed over the last Years. And maybe i am to lazy as not to have searched under literally every Rock in the Internet for a Video or so,
but i also haven't seen many "Gear-Videos" also. In fact, none. lol
I have the Feeling this whole Topic is kinda pointless. I mean : what for good Comparisons that are actually on CURRENT Game-Development Status do we have ?
I like the Thought and Idea that "Gear" can make your Character like +40% to 50% or so stronger, than your Character would be completely naked aside from wearing Underwear.
But is it even this much ? I have no Idea.
In many games, particularly sandbox (or in this case themebox or whatever), insignificance is a 'problem' some players face.
That was related to my point. For a 'strong' player, it's easy to feel like things become repetitive, for one with lots of 'weaknesses' that they're constantly working to overcome, the content is much bigger, as small changes create lots of 'stuff for them to do and experience'. The only 'problem' then is if the stronger players always clear the content before they get to do anything much other than watch.
I don't know if it is a 'problem' for a time-hardcore challenge-casual player, though, and if not, then it's easily possible to both be right. A chess player with the type of memory/visualization skills to play simultaneous multiple games at once at an exhibition is usually very different than the bulk of their dozens of opponents.
Some people might not need to be able to have any 'real effect' on the outcome of an event they are participating in, personally, to feel like they are experiencing content.
"To me, each new Node, each new variation, each new touchdown of a dragon is unique, a part of our beautiful unchanging world..." ~ Not Dygz, Not 2023.
See, this is not universal.
If it were, you are basically saying "this is the way to play MMO's".
Now, it is true that someone working on quests would think this when developing those quests - but that is because that person's job is just quests - not the game as a whole.
The person populating dungeons should be doing so under the assumption that those dungeons are what the game is about. The person designing boss encounters should be designing those encounters under the assumption that they are what the game is about. The PvP developers should be developing PvP under the assumption that the game is about PvP. The crafting team should be developing crafting based on the assumption that the whole game is about crafting. The economy developers should be developing the economy based on the assumption that it is what the game is about.
To each of these people/teams, they are absolutely right if they say that is what the game is about - because to them, it is (at least in eegards to their work). Also, in every case above, there will be players that will play the game almost purely for any one of the above aspects.
So no, your notion that the game is about quests and/or story is thoroughly rejected. It can be about that for you, but that doesn't mean anything other than it being about that for you.
This topic is about gear.
Just because you aren’t aware of Steven and Jeffrey’s statements about the significance of the changes to the mobs and how that affects gear does not mean those statements are non-existent.
You won’t need a whole new build because build includes Secondary Archetype and you won’t have to change Secondary Archetype.
But, if you stick to just one set if Level 50 gear for everything, you will be gimped.
Same if you try to always use the exact same Active Skills and Augments.
Because things like Winter vs Summer buff and debuff Active Skills, Augments and gear.
By design, the gear you use to defeat a Summer Dragon will not be META against a Winter Dragon.
It is true that it simply takes time to prepare.
But this topic is not about time to prepare.
This topic states that a Level 40 Sword should win against a Level 35 Sword 100% of the time.
And I am sharing that the design of Ashes is such that Item Level will not be important enough to guarantee that a Level 40 Sword always wins against a Level 35 Sword.
If that Level 40 Sword is specced for a Sweltering Desert but the combat is in taking place during Perpetual Winter, it will probably not be as effective as a Level 35 Sword that is specced to excel in the Frozen Tundra.
Because that Sweltering Sword will be suffering debugs during Perpetual Winter while the Frost Sword will gain buffs during Perpetual Winter.
Similarly, by design, in Ashes, you don’t just use the same set of BiS gear each time you run Tower of Carphin at max level.
Because the content is not static.
The content is dynamic.
Significantly enough that you will have to bring a different set of tools and gear with you to defeat the different mobs and bosses.
You don’t have to prep differently to deal with something as insignificant as sprinkles on ice cream. You do have to use a different set of utensils to eat ice cream than you do to eat crabs.
The dynamics of Ashes content is are designed to be as different as eating crabs rather than ice cream. Ashes content is not designed to be static, such that you will still be eating ice cream each time you run the Tower of Carphin, just adding sprinkles.
Those dynamic changes occur throughout the life of the game. They don’t start at max Adventurer level and they don’t end when individuals reach max Adventurer level.
Actually, no.
The disconnect is not that our povs are different.
The disconnect is that you have switched to a different topic and/or you are unaware of the ramifications of Ashes having dynamic content and how that is designed to affect the gear you wear as the content changes.
I haven’t said anything, here, about L2 not being an RPG.
What I did say is that I’m not aware of L2 having a system similar to Nodes/StoryBricks, where the rise and fall of Nodes interacts with the Events system and the Weather system, monitoring what the players are doing, to significantly change the content to the extent that players were pushed to adapt by changing their gear.
If in L2, your alts can always find Fippy Darkpaw at the same location your main encountered Fippy Darkpaw and they can always do the exact same quests associated with Fippy Darkpaw…
If Fippy Darkpaw will always cycle through the same behaviors such that a META guide always works…
If you can use a META guide to anticipate how to best defeat the boss in Kithicor Fortress…
That game is static and probably has an Endgame.
EvE might not have an Endgame.
L2 might not have an Endgame either, but you would have to tell me how Sieges affect the available content in the world for me to evaluate.
If Sieges did not effect the mobs enough to push players to change their gear when they loop back through the same region (or dungeon or raid), L2 is not as dynamic as the Ashes design.
And L2 probably had an Endgame.
I just don’t know how similar the L2 Siege system is to Ashes’ Nodes/Events/Weather systems or EQNext StoryBricks.
"Let's create a gap." was the answer suggested to this overarching and complex problem.
Until a powerful weapon costs 3x the amount of the entire kit of defenses needed to not die to that weapon, the same thing will happen. Half the time you don't even need the strong weapon, you just need 'the form of offense that is unreasonable to spec against'.
The Intrepid value is basically right mathematically for the type of game Ashes is, and wasn't entirely for the type of game L2 is (I got more data so I'm sure now!).
Because it makes sure that everyone has some 'base level of defense' against all offense forms, and if you wanna overwhelm that defense with your build, you probably had to put in a weakness somewhere. I'm sure there's a 'whiteboard/spreadsheet' somewhere.
My condolences as always to whoever is in charge of that 'whiteboard/spreadsheet', as we march toward launch.
When we create a new character, it is not at the end game because it has a subset of the skills.
Once it can use all skills, we can say it has reached the end game. There is no progression anymore.
When I feel like having a change, I will switch the secondary archetype and go somewhere where I can use it successfully. I'll not go where is useless. The ability to change secondary archetype is part of the end game too.
Trying to get better gear to be able to defeat stronger enemies can be seen as a progression but the pool of skills being the same, it is basically the end game for the character. (exceptions would be cases where gear and skills must be used together)
The above part is from the perspective of how we fight.
For players who want
- to solve jumping puzzles, the end game starts when they get access to all skills which help them solve jumping puzzles.
- to unlock chests and steal loot, the end game starts when they get access to all lock-pick, stealth and disarm trap skills etc.
- to explore the world, the end game starts when they create the 1st character and ends when they run out of things to discover
- to do politics, the end game starts when they reach the stage to be known by other players and can have an impact too on which node falls or survives
Some players quit before they reach end game. Others when they are in the end game where they use the same skills all the time. Some will make alts (if they don't hate the leveling up phase) to see how skills work on a new class.
Do you believe that the Winter Dragon will be unbeatable if players only have desert-related gear? I'm not talking about metas or super quick kills or whatever. I'm asking whether you think it will even BE POSSIBLE to kill WD with desert gear.
I don't think a level 40 sword should per default win from a level 35 sword.
I think u should be billable with a wooden sword. If your afk or something like that.
Gear should be for the aesthetics and look of Your character. It should not define your overall strength by such a large margin.
Don't u think 2, 5 or more should be able to kill a higher levels player in whatever gear he has, with coordinated attacks and ambushes.
Or do people just wanna play in God-mode,
With the end game gear?
I think they can keep the numbers low, and close to each other.
More HP and more MP.
Not impenetrable armour sets,
Maybe your high level items should give you different things, like a extra move or uniek, glow.
Not make you win against every thing per default.
A level 1 player not being hit, should be able to take down a max level player,
If he's afk or something.
Or one max level player, thinking he is super strong, gets beat by 10 PvE farmers.
That's a good game.
Instead of having immortals walking around, just taking 0% dmg. Unable to be killed.
I don't see the fun in that from both sides.
Probly duke nukem or wolfenstein
God-mode players.
Look how good i am
Gear needs to make a noticeable difference in strength, (or abilities when we change gear to make our build work different)