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The case for gear to provide more than 40-50% of a characters power.

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Comments

  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited October 2023
    Azhrae thanks for confirming what I was saying earlier
    You are one of those ppl that assume the worst on others. An ulterior motive.
    Starting from the position that there MUST BE something wrong with what I am saying (even though you admit that you have no idea what's going on) isn't doing you any credit.
    You think I am looking for a solution that suits me? I even revealed the plan that benefits me under the current circumstances. I had no reason to open the topic if my aim was to benefit.

    Losing gear is a weak punishment, gear that may have taken 1-2 weeks worth of organized effort?
    As opposed to what? Being chase for 20-30 mins?
    What kinda of relevant insight is this?

    As for the start of your second post, the 4v1 scenario of PvP (PvP not PK.....) is irrelevant.


  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    George_Black wrote: »
    Do you prefer to nerf class mechanics instead of regulating gear? This is the same mistake ESO did.
    Is that what you are saying?
    This is gear regulation. You do realize that your request of "gear should be 80% of player power" is an even stronger "class balance" idea than mine, right? Because your suggestion requires all other mechanics to be weaker.

    If gear decides 80% of my power, any change in my class-side build matters waaay less, because it changes a fraction of a %, while changing a single piece of gear would shift my power by ~5% (or would at least have the influence on 5% of my overall power).

    So your suggestion is a much bigger "fuck over the class design" idea than mine :)@Azherae you're a designer. Is my logic here correct or did I miss smth?

    Within my experience, your logic is correct.

    Note that I still can't figure out if George is 'offering a true solution' or 'working towards defining the problem'. In the first case, then George would already have worked out the only solution that solves the problem in a way he doesn't mind. So, for example, his question asked would be 'accusatory' (at least in the sense of verifying that you're never going to agree)

    In the second, I can see the continuance of the conversation gaining anything from this line, though.

    Also, having never played L2 seriously and having to extrapolate it from the numbers, there's no way to know what the true concern here even is.

    The damage formulae don't back up what George is saying, what Depraved is saying, and sometimes not even what you are 'saying'. The only person whose comments seem to match the data I can find is James.

    tl;dr I kinda don't even know what y'all are talking about.

    /facepalm

    im always right, just so you know that.

    what damage formulas? lets see, give me the damage formula...havent you considered that maybe your calculations or your models are wrong?
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited October 2023
    Depraved wrote: »
    if gear only provided a small % of power you could easily violate mobs naked since most of your power comes from your character or other sources. thats why i said take it off so you see it provides a lot of your power

    so because in l2 gear gives you most of your power, your suggestion of making gear give you 80% of your power in aoc rather than 50% to prevent people from pking in cheap gear wont work because you can already pk in l2 with cheap gear, where gear is more than 80% your power.

    the solution has to be something else. i explained a possible solution above

    Your are fixed on the stats of a naked L2 character and a dressed up one, when the conversation is about the impact gear has in the potential dmg output of characters.
    I just explained to you that in ESO a naked character with a Lv1 sword can kill equal level mobs. Same concept, different outcome.

    You are seeing it differently.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    George_Black wrote: »
    Azhrae thanks for confirming what I was saying earlier
    You are one of those ppl that assume the worst on others. An ulterior motive.
    Starting from the position that there MUST BE something wrong with what I am saying (even though you admit that you have no idea what's going on) isn't doing you any credit.
    You think I am looking for a solution that suits me? I even revealed the plan that benefits me under the current circumstances. I had no reason to open the topic if my aim was to benefit.

    Losing gear is a weak punishment, gear that may have taken 1-2 weeks worth of organized effort?
    As opposed to what? Being chase for 20-30 mins?
    What kinda of relevant insight is this?

    As for the start of your second post, the 4v1 scenario of PvP (PvP not PK.....) is irrelevant.


    Sorry, I phrased myself poorly, since I figured you weren't really paying attention to me anymore.

    I don't think there's anything wrong with what you're saying. I was trying to say that I think you have different goals from others in this conversation. And I didn't mean benefit in terms of 'you getting to win' or anything like that (it's not clear if that's what you meant).

    Yes, losing gear is a weak punishment for people whose goal is not heavily progression based. I was talking about people who 'mostly just want to group up and PK others'. May I assume that you're talking about deterring people who tend to PK by themselves, opportunistically, by carrying around a weak gearset to change to, for their PK?

    I'm also glad to hear that the 4v1 and similar are irrelevant, since Ashes specifically doesn't counter this at all. I believe you've more clearly defined your parameters now, so thank you. NiKr, I had to be a little... sus... about it, but you have your data.

    Mirror flash complete.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish ♪
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    No, I am talking about people using cheap, replacable gear to achieve a specific short term goal, eliminating opposition, without worrying about the PK count during that time.
    For the 1000th time.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    the potential problem is with the difference between gear tiers.

    Let's stop arguing semantics. We agree if you haven't realized.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    George_Black wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    if gear only provided a small % of power you could easily violate mobs naked since most of your power comes from your character or other sources. thats why i said take it off so you see it provides a lot of your power

    so because in l2 gear gives you most of your power, your suggestion of making gear give you 80% of your power in aoc rather than 50% to prevent people from pking in cheap gear wont work because you can already pk in l2 with cheap gear, where gear is more than 80% your power.

    the solution has to be something else. i explained a possible solution above

    Your are fixed on the stats of a naked L2 character and a dressed up one, when the conversation is about the impact gear has in the potential dmg output of characters.
    I just explained to you that in ESO a naked character with a Lv1 sword can kill equal level mobs. Same concept, different outcome.

    You are seeing it differently.

    the point im trying to make is 80% of power coming from gear wont solve the problem you are presenting. the difference between gear tiers will
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    JamesSunderland wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Checked out of curiosity.
    48r5sdap42dn.png

    Crits against the weakest (def wise) mage (or was SH even weaker, I forget) in the game are in fact quite nice. But the response from the mage is as deadly.

    The crits could've been even higher as the archer is missing the Blessing of Queen skill1331.png buff and the +4 STR dye, Daggers and Archers Non-gear Character power truly was insane in the earlier versions but they were eventually indirectly maimed in later version with the introduction of things like:
    Chant of Protection(-30% total critical damage received)skill1461.png
    Counter Critical(-30% total critical damage received) skill1542.png
    Eye of Pa'agrio(-30% chance to received a Critical Hit)skill1364.png
    {PvP}Robe Armor Critical Down triggered skill(-15% total critical damage received -15% chance to received a Critical Hit) skill1242.png

    This + buffing other classes skill power and giving those skills the possibility to crit was Lineage 2's way of dealing with the Daggers and Archers Non-Gear character power unbalance, and i would say it was pretty effective.

    Now I want you to do the same about Mages PK potential before critical magic attacks, in the era of Homunculus Sword and Sword of Valhala.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    George_Black wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    the potential problem is with the difference between gear tiers.

    Let's stop arguing semantics. We agree if you haven't realized.

    noo its not semantics. i wrote a very long post showing this, check a couple of pages back

  • Raven016Raven016 Member
    I think the the difference between consecutive gear tiers will be 20%...25%.
    Is that enough?
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited October 2023
    Depraved wrote: »
    i think people are confusing character power with fight outcome.


    Character Power

    lvl 30 character using a skill called Smash!

    Level 30 Smash! has 30 points of attack.
    Level 30 gear has 30 points of attack.
    Smash! will do 60 damage.

    in this case, gear is providing 50% of the character power and the character itself is providing the other 50%
    we can also add other stats, such as evasion and accuracy. lets say smash gives you 30 accuracy and gear gives you 30 accuracy. level 30 enemies have 60 evasion, so now you have 60 accuracy against 60 evasion, then you are hitting the enemy 100% of the time. maybe some enemies can have 70 evasion, so now you are hitting them only 90% of the time.

    lvl 50 character using Smash!

    Level 50 Smash! has 50 points of attack.
    Level 50 gear has 50 points of attack.
    Smash! will do 100 damage.

    lets say each gives you 50 points of accuracy, so now you wont miss against the level 30 enemy with 70 evasion, and you wont miss against level 50 enmies with 100 evasion. you will still miss against enemies with 110 evasion though, adding a bit of an rng factor. but the gear is still providing 50% of your power

    in this example, the split is still equal. 50% from gear and 50% from the character. so how does player skill affect character power in this case? if i press my buttons faster i will do more damage? O_O that doesnt sound right.

    Level 30 gear on a level 50 character will do 80 damage with Smash! and will only have 80 accuracy, so you can sometimes miss on level 50 mobs with 100 evasion. in this case, the difference isnt that big. you can still beat the enemy, but you will need a few extra attacks, plus you will need to dodge or block a couple more times. if we fought each other, who would win?

    Fight Outcome

    there isnt a right or wrong answer here. this depends on how you want the game to be.

    lets use this example

    level 30 remains the same:

    Level 30 Smash! has 30 points of attack.
    Level 30 gear has 30 points of attack.
    Smash! will do 60 damage.

    level 50:

    Level 50 Smash! has 500 points of attack.
    Level 50 gear has 500 points of attack.
    Smash! will do 1000 damage.

    level 30 gear on level 50 character, Smash! will do 530 damage

    gear is still providing 50% and character is providing 50%
    the ratios are still the same, but a level 50 character will stomp a level 30, and most likely will beat a level 50 wearing level 30 gear

    we can see that the % of power coming from gear doesn't matter. what matters is the difference between gear tiers. who should win the fight here?

    lets say gear provides 80% of power, so other sources only provide 20%. for other sources, we will only use skill level.

    Level 30 Smash! has 12 points of attack.
    Level 30 gear has 48 points of attack.
    Smash! will do 60 damage.

    Level 50 Smash! has 20 points of attack.
    Level 50 gear has 80 points of attack.
    Smash! will do 100 damage.

    Level 30 gear on level 50 character, Smash! will do 68 damage

    as you can see, there is still not a big difference in damage, because the gap between tiers isnt that big. with some effort, the level 30 player, or the level 50 player wearing low level gear, can still beat a higher level player, even though gear provides 80% of your power. the question is, how much better do you have to be? 2 times better? 3 times better? 10 times better?

    lets say gear is only 30% of your power, as others suggested

    Level 30 Smash! has 42 points of attack.
    Level 30 gear has 18 points of attack.
    Smash! will do 60 damage.

    Level 50 Smash! has 700 points of attack.
    Level 50 gear has 300 points of attack.
    Smash! will do 1000 damage.

    Level 30 gear on level 50 character, Smash! will do 718 damage.

    the ratios are still the same, but a level 50 character will stomp a level 30, and most likely will beat a level 50 wearing level 30 gear.

    so in this case, is it fair that the less geared character wins through skills? how much better do they need to be.

    if we adjust things so the gear gap is lower and assuming there isnt a class advantage (there always is) and skills matter more and we fought and im the lower level (or geared) is it fair i beat you because i dodged 10 of your attacks and you only dodged 9 of mine?
    how much better than you do i need to be to beat you? twice as good? 10 times better? maybe i only need to be 10% better than you? if all it takes is one extra dodge or block, whats the point of gear?

    whats the difference between the best player and the worst player? maybe the best player is 10 times better than the worst player. but the top 30% player is only 10% better than the top 70% players. it could be that the top 70% player beats the top 30% player just by a 1 mistake difference. is this really fair when it comes to skill? should you lose because you made one mistake? maybe you fat fingered a key? the more skill maters, mistakes are more punishing.
    a lot of people think there is a big difference between most players. there isnt. there is only a big difference between top players (1%-10% and you probably arent one) and everyone else. you can say that most duels will be won based on luck. luck as in who makes the mistake first. is this fair?
    if im 10% better than you, should i win 11 times and you ill only win 10? is this fair?
    what about class advantage? maybe my class does 120 damage and has 500 hp, and yours only does 90 and has 450 hp. ill beat you in 4 hits and you will need 6. is this fair? maybe you are a bit better than me but ill still win.


    to summarize. how much better does someone need to be to beat the higher level or better geared player?

    anyways, game wont be balanced around 1v1, so all of these probably wont matter too much.

    i hope this clear things.



    this one?
    Ok so your definition of gear power is in the form of addition. Fair enough.
    I agree with everything else.
  • JamesSunderlandJamesSunderland Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    I'd like to throw in the point here that losing gear is a weak and ineffective punishment against going red in general.

    This is only true if gear is too easily acquirable(something i believe George doesn't want to be a thing) or represents too little of a character power(what george really doesn't want to be a thing) the harder to get gear is the more punishing losing it becomes.

    I expect Ashes gear to be reasonably close to as hard to acquire as Lineage2 gear was.
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    George_Black wrote: »
    No, I am talking about people using cheap, replacable gear to achieve a specific short term goal, eliminating opposition, without worrying about the PK count during that time.
    For the 1000th time.

    I don't see how this situation matters to anything in Ashes, though? Shouldn't this be a strategic option?

    Ashes doesn't even care about this if the PK is 'easy' enough.

    Step 1, bring enemy pretty low (we know we at least get to know this much)
    Step 2, apply lots of DoT and CC.
    Step 3, have your finisher who probably didn't have powerful defense gear, swap to their less meaningful weapon and try to finish them off.

    That's why I asked about the 4v1 thing. It's trivial to have good odds of achieving this goal no matter what the gearscore if only the last hitter is getting corruption, unless you do as you said and make it so that easily accessible gear does basically zero damage to anything.

    But that's relative, and easily accessible is relative in a game with crafting, so yeah...

    Your wish is pretty clear, I don't know why anyone's arguing against it other than to say 'nah fam I don't like it so Intrepid shouldn't do it'. Your suggestion isn't complicated. I think people are just trying to get you to understand why it doesn't work for them or their idea of Ashes in general.

    The first part of this thread was probably better in that regard, everyone just looked at your point and went 'nah' in some variation and that was it.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish ♪
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Raven016 wrote: »
    I think the the difference between consecutive gear tiers will be 20%...25%.
    Is that enough?

    need to test it. but id say the bigger the gap between gear tiers, the harder, if not impossible it would be to pk with cheap gear. but then people will cry about how it is unfair that that cant beat people who have been playing for longer just cuz they have been playing for longer and have better gear, thinking they ar more skilled and deserve to win lmao.

    anyways a concrete example. ill never forget this. whe i played tera, i played a lancer. i hit 60, did battlegrounds got destroyed. 1-2 shotted left and right. i bought a victor set, which is the most basic pvp gear you can get (i didnt know you could get it in a day of doing battlegrounds, money wasted, lol).

    i remember i was afk somewhere, getting water or whatever, then i came back to my computer and i saw a level 59 dude attacking me. i was full health. i just looked at my screen for a good 2 mins while the dude was using all his skills trying to kill me. i dont remember well, but i think he was a slayer..my health wasnt dropping. the difference between a lvl 59 with gear and a fresh 60 with the most basic lvl 60 gear was massive. after i got bored of watching him, i just 1-2 shot him.

    but then, victor set had no chance against fraywind set. all it did was prevent you from getting 1-2 shotted.

    but then, fraywind had no chance against conjunct...

    something similar in aoc can prevent people pking wearing cheap gear, because you just wont do anything to the better geared person.

    is this the best solution? who knows. ill let intrepid figure that out. they need to see and test the implications that would have over other aspects of the game.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2023
    George_Black wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    i think people are confusing character power with fight outcome.


    Character Power

    lvl 30 character using a skill called Smash!

    Level 30 Smash! has 30 points of attack.
    Level 30 gear has 30 points of attack.
    Smash! will do 60 damage.

    in this case, gear is providing 50% of the character power and the character itself is providing the other 50%
    we can also add other stats, such as evasion and accuracy. lets say smash gives you 30 accuracy and gear gives you 30 accuracy. level 30 enemies have 60 evasion, so now you have 60 accuracy against 60 evasion, then you are hitting the enemy 100% of the time. maybe some enemies can have 70 evasion, so now you are hitting them only 90% of the time.

    lvl 50 character using Smash!

    Level 50 Smash! has 50 points of attack.
    Level 50 gear has 50 points of attack.
    Smash! will do 100 damage.

    lets say each gives you 50 points of accuracy, so now you wont miss against the level 30 enemy with 70 evasion, and you wont miss against level 50 enmies with 100 evasion. you will still miss against enemies with 110 evasion though, adding a bit of an rng factor. but the gear is still providing 50% of your power

    in this example, the split is still equal. 50% from gear and 50% from the character. so how does player skill affect character power in this case? if i press my buttons faster i will do more damage? O_O that doesnt sound right.

    Level 30 gear on a level 50 character will do 80 damage with Smash! and will only have 80 accuracy, so you can sometimes miss on level 50 mobs with 100 evasion. in this case, the difference isnt that big. you can still beat the enemy, but you will need a few extra attacks, plus you will need to dodge or block a couple more times. if we fought each other, who would win?

    Fight Outcome

    there isnt a right or wrong answer here. this depends on how you want the game to be.

    lets use this example

    level 30 remains the same:

    Level 30 Smash! has 30 points of attack.
    Level 30 gear has 30 points of attack.
    Smash! will do 60 damage.

    level 50:

    Level 50 Smash! has 500 points of attack.
    Level 50 gear has 500 points of attack.
    Smash! will do 1000 damage.

    level 30 gear on level 50 character, Smash! will do 530 damage

    gear is still providing 50% and character is providing 50%
    the ratios are still the same, but a level 50 character will stomp a level 30, and most likely will beat a level 50 wearing level 30 gear

    we can see that the % of power coming from gear doesn't matter. what matters is the difference between gear tiers. who should win the fight here?

    lets say gear provides 80% of power, so other sources only provide 20%. for other sources, we will only use skill level.

    Level 30 Smash! has 12 points of attack.
    Level 30 gear has 48 points of attack.
    Smash! will do 60 damage.

    Level 50 Smash! has 20 points of attack.
    Level 50 gear has 80 points of attack.
    Smash! will do 100 damage.

    Level 30 gear on level 50 character, Smash! will do 68 damage

    as you can see, there is still not a big difference in damage, because the gap between tiers isnt that big. with some effort, the level 30 player, or the level 50 player wearing low level gear, can still beat a higher level player, even though gear provides 80% of your power. the question is, how much better do you have to be? 2 times better? 3 times better? 10 times better?

    lets say gear is only 30% of your power, as others suggested

    Level 30 Smash! has 42 points of attack.
    Level 30 gear has 18 points of attack.
    Smash! will do 60 damage.

    Level 50 Smash! has 700 points of attack.
    Level 50 gear has 300 points of attack.
    Smash! will do 1000 damage.

    Level 30 gear on level 50 character, Smash! will do 718 damage.

    the ratios are still the same, but a level 50 character will stomp a level 30, and most likely will beat a level 50 wearing level 30 gear.

    so in this case, is it fair that the less geared character wins through skills? how much better do they need to be.

    if we adjust things so the gear gap is lower and assuming there isnt a class advantage (there always is) and skills matter more and we fought and im the lower level (or geared) is it fair i beat you because i dodged 10 of your attacks and you only dodged 9 of mine?
    how much better than you do i need to be to beat you? twice as good? 10 times better? maybe i only need to be 10% better than you? if all it takes is one extra dodge or block, whats the point of gear?

    whats the difference between the best player and the worst player? maybe the best player is 10 times better than the worst player. but the top 30% player is only 10% better than the top 70% players. it could be that the top 70% player beats the top 30% player just by a 1 mistake difference. is this really fair when it comes to skill? should you lose because you made one mistake? maybe you fat fingered a key? the more skill maters, mistakes are more punishing.
    a lot of people think there is a big difference between most players. there isnt. there is only a big difference between top players (1%-10% and you probably arent one) and everyone else. you can say that most duels will be won based on luck. luck as in who makes the mistake first. is this fair?
    if im 10% better than you, should i win 11 times and you ill only win 10? is this fair?
    what about class advantage? maybe my class does 120 damage and has 500 hp, and yours only does 90 and has 450 hp. ill beat you in 4 hits and you will need 6. is this fair? maybe you are a bit better than me but ill still win.


    to summarize. how much better does someone need to be to beat the higher level or better geared player?

    anyways, game wont be balanced around 1v1, so all of these probably wont matter too much.

    i hope this clear things.



    this one?
    Ok so your definition of gear power is in the form of addition. Fair enough.
    I agree with everything else.

    the formula doesnt matter, i just wanted to illustrate a point T_T.

    l2 had addition too. patk was added to skills attack. but that doesnt matter for aoc.

    but then, we agree then i guess

  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    George_Black wrote: »
    No, I am talking about people using cheap, replacable gear to achieve a specific short term goal, eliminating opposition, without worrying about the PK count during that time.
    For the 1000th time.

    I don't see how this situation matters to anything in Ashes, though? Shouldn't this be a strategic option?

    Ashes doesn't even care about this if the PK is 'easy' enough.

    Step 1, bring enemy pretty low (we know we at least get to know this much)
    Step 2, apply lots of DoT and CC.
    Step 3, have your finisher who probably didn't have powerful defense gear, swap to their less meaningful weapon and try to finish them off.

    That's why I asked about the 4v1 thing. It's trivial to have good odds of achieving this goal no matter what the gearscore if only the last hitter is getting corruption, unless you do as you said and make it so that easily accessible gear does basically zero damage to anything.

    But that's relative, and easily accessible is relative in a game with crafting, so yeah...

    Your wish is pretty clear, I don't know why anyone's arguing against it other than to say 'nah fam I don't like it so Intrepid shouldn't do it'. Your suggestion isn't complicated. I think people are just trying to get you to understand why it doesn't work for them or their idea of Ashes in general.

    The first part of this thread was probably better in that regard, everyone just looked at your point and went 'nah' in some variation and that was it.

    you are forgetting you cant cc greens in aoc...
    you see how you make mistakes then you say the other person was wrong? T_T
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    Raven016 wrote: »
    I think the the difference between consecutive gear tiers will be 20%...25%.
    Is that enough?

    need to test it. but id say the bigger the gap between gear tiers, the harder, if not impossible it would be to pk with cheap gear. but then people will cry about how it is unfair that that cant beat people who have been playing for longer just cuz they have been playing for longer and have better gear, thinking they ar more skilled and deserve to win lmao.

    anyways a concrete example. ill never forget this. whe i played tera, i played a lancer. i hit 60, did battlegrounds got destroyed. 1-2 shotted left and right. i bought a victor set, which is the most basic pvp gear you can get (i didnt know you could get it in a day of doing battlegrounds, money wasted, lol).

    i remember i was afk somewhere, getting water or whatever, then i came back to my computer and i saw a level 59 dude attacking me. i was full health. i just looked at my screen for a good 2 mins while the dude was using all his skills trying to kill me. i dont remember well, but i think he was a slayer..my health wasnt dropping. the difference between a lvl 59 with gear and a fresh 60 with the most basic lvl 60 gear was massive. after i got bored of watching him, i just 1-2 shot him.

    but then, victor set had no chance against fraywind set. all it did was prevent you from getting 1-2 shotted.

    but then, fraywind had no chance against conjunct...

    something similar in aoc can prevent people pking wearing cheap gear, because you just wont do anything to the better geared person.

    is this the best solution? who knows. ill let intrepid figure that out. they need to see and test the implications that would have over other aspects of the game.

    To clarify, in Tera, an mmo which had the best action combat I have seen to date, all these mentioned items were farmed from instanced battlegrounds.
    I hope AoC will never do such a thing.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    i hope so too ;3
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2023
    JamesSunderland wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    I'd like to throw in the point here that losing gear is a weak and ineffective punishment against going red in general.

    This is only true if gear is too easily acquirable(something i believe George doesn't want to be a thing) or represents too little of a character power(what george really doesn't want to be a thing) the harder to get gear is the more punishing losing it becomes.

    I expect Ashes gear to be reasonably close to as hard to acquire as Lineage2 gear was.

    I'm noting it based on what I know of Ashes right now overall, but bearing in mind that we're talking about PK...

    Ashes only gives corruption to last hitter, and while anyone can lose gear from even one kill, it still just doesn't seem like it's really meant to be a big deal.

    Even without knowing an opponent's exact level or HP, I don't believe they have a way to make 'PK with a character who doesn't mind losing their gear' difficult enough. And I don't believe they want to make it difficult, because it makes a bunch of other things difficult.

    Also, I don't really know what's 'hard to acquire' here, so could you clarify?

    I can say that losing gear that takes 20h to get is no issue to me, I spend more time than that practicing a single combo that I probably never even use, for example.

    I think I would start to care at around 60h, personally. I'm on the higher end of my group for that, but not at the tier of our Enforcer who might not even have a limit...

    That man will grind for a month to get a gearpiece to use for one fight in the whole game. That's why he's the Enforcer.

    EDIT: Realized I should either have left off the example or clarified it, so here's the clarification. I know that most people will care about losing their gear, that's why they want the option to swap to cheap gear and why it would be good for that option to be less, but I'm on NiKr's side here where you will get a less organic game if weak gear people just stand no chance and therefore can't be bothered to EITHER defend themselves or 'try an attack or two'. So based on the idea of a game where people actually fight, then the only problem people are people who will just find their way to PK during their short term goals, and those people might be more like me.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish ♪
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Raven016 wrote: »
    I think the the difference between consecutive gear tiers will be 20%...25%.
    Is that enough?

    Remember that Ashes has enhancing on top of everything else.

    So we don't know.

    If +9 Blue is around the same strength as +3 Purple, for example, it changes things around.

    If 'everyone is expected to get Purple gear before they seriously try to PvP', then it's probably fine.

    I don't want to think about how to balance sieges or Caravans in a situation where 'everyone has to have good gear or they won't even scratch the one or two people on the other side with good gear'. But I believe that the L2 players enjoy that scenario...?

    It's very unclear, so for the rest of us we just have to hope that Ashes is not L2, or that we don't understand. A Purple Tier Geared Fighter soloing an entire caravan of average-Blue geared defenders doesn't sound fun to me, but I don't know how you achieve what George wants without making this happen.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish ♪
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited October 2023
    Meh..
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    JamesSunderland wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    I'd like to throw in the point here that losing gear is a weak and ineffective punishment against going red in general.

    This is only true if gear is too easily acquirable(something i believe George doesn't want to be a thing) or represents too little of a character power(what george really doesn't want to be a thing) the harder to get gear is the more punishing losing it becomes.

    I expect Ashes gear to be reasonably close to as hard to acquire as Lineage2 gear was.

    I'm noting it based on what I know of Ashes right now overall, but bearing in mind that we're talking about PK...

    Ashes only gives corruption to last hitter, and while anyone can lose gear from even one kill, it still just doesn't seem like it's really meant to be a big deal.

    Even without knowing an opponent's exact level or HP, I don't believe they have a way to make 'PK with a character who doesn't mind losing their gear' difficult enough. And I don't believe they want to make it difficult, because it makes a bunch of other things difficult.

    Also, I don't really know what's 'hard to acquire' here, so could you clarify?

    I can say that losing gear that takes 20h to get is no issue to me, I spend more time than that practicing a single combo that I probably never even use, for example.

    I think I would start to care at around 60h, personally. I'm on the higher end of my group for that, but not at the tier of our Enforcer who might not even have a limit...

    That man will grind for a month to get a gearpiece to use for one fight in the whole game. That's why he's the Enforcer.

    EDIT: Realized I should either have left off the example or clarified it, so here's the clarification. I know that most people will care about losing their gear, that's why they want the option to swap to cheap gear and why it would be good for that option to be less, but I'm on NiKr's side here where you will get a less organic game if weak gear people just stand no chance and therefore can't be bothered to EITHER defend themselves or 'try an attack or two'. So based on the idea of a game where people actually fight, then the only problem people are people who will just find their way to PK during their short term goals, and those people might be more like me.

    if gear in aoc is as hard and limited as it was to get in l2 (and everything indicates it will be), trust me, your "enforcer" will cry like a lil b...when he loses it and he is unable to farm it back because he simply can't compete. he wont be able to farm it back. this isnt ff. this is the jungle. how are you going to farm it when people are going to murder you as soon as you get to the farming spot? if anything, going to an easy area and farming money to eventually buy it when the big boys start selling it will be your best bet.

    you think 60 hours is a lot? think again lol. thats not even a week. to give you context. i met this guys in l2 who started playing when the game came out. he played through several expansions. the dude had 18 bots farming 24/7. that means he had 2 fully buffed parties, so he was melting everything. it took him 2 months of his 18 bots farming in retail (which is much harder than farming in private servers) to make 1 dark crystal robe set for his main character, a fire mage. how many hours is that? and dc robe isnt a top set, and its not particularly difficult to get, at leats in interlude and beyond, but its probably the most popular set in the game lol.

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    JamesSunderland wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    I'd like to throw in the point here that losing gear is a weak and ineffective punishment against going red in general.

    This is only true if gear is too easily acquirable(something i believe George doesn't want to be a thing) or represents too little of a character power(what george really doesn't want to be a thing) the harder to get gear is the more punishing losing it becomes.

    I expect Ashes gear to be reasonably close to as hard to acquire as Lineage2 gear was.

    I'm noting it based on what I know of Ashes right now overall, but bearing in mind that we're talking about PK...

    Ashes only gives corruption to last hitter, and while anyone can lose gear from even one kill, it still just doesn't seem like it's really meant to be a big deal.

    Even without knowing an opponent's exact level or HP, I don't believe they have a way to make 'PK with a character who doesn't mind losing their gear' difficult enough. And I don't believe they want to make it difficult, because it makes a bunch of other things difficult.

    Also, I don't really know what's 'hard to acquire' here, so could you clarify?

    I can say that losing gear that takes 20h to get is no issue to me, I spend more time than that practicing a single combo that I probably never even use, for example.

    I think I would start to care at around 60h, personally. I'm on the higher end of my group for that, but not at the tier of our Enforcer who might not even have a limit...

    That man will grind for a month to get a gearpiece to use for one fight in the whole game. That's why he's the Enforcer.

    EDIT: Realized I should either have left off the example or clarified it, so here's the clarification. I know that most people will care about losing their gear, that's why they want the option to swap to cheap gear and why it would be good for that option to be less, but I'm on NiKr's side here where you will get a less organic game if weak gear people just stand no chance and therefore can't be bothered to EITHER defend themselves or 'try an attack or two'. So based on the idea of a game where people actually fight, then the only problem people are people who will just find their way to PK during their short term goals, and those people might be more like me.

    if gear in aoc is as hard and limited as it was to get in l2 (and everything indicates it will be), trust me, your "enforcer" will cry like a lil b...when he loses it and he is unable to farm it back because he simply can't compete. he wont be able to farm it back. this isnt ff. this is the jungle. how are you going to farm it when people are going to murder you as soon as you get to the farming spot? if anything, going to an easy area and farming money to eventually buy it when the big boys start selling it will be your best bet.

    you think 60 hours is a lot? think again lol. thats not even a week. to give you context. i met this guys in l2 who started playing when the game came out. he played through several expansions. the dude had 18 bots farming 24/7. that means he had 2 fully buffed parties, so he was melting everything. it took him 2 months of his 18 bots farming in retail (which is much harder than farming in private servers) to make 1 dark crystal robe set for his main character, a fire mage. how many hours is that? and dc robe isnt a top set, and its not particularly difficult to get, at leats in interlude and beyond, but its probably the most popular set in the game lol.

    I understand all this, but what I don't understand is how anyone is generally supposed to get near those people in the end.

    I'll see if I can clarify it without being frustrating...

    You can build really really good gear, then dunk on anyone, it would take super long. You wouldn't want to use it to PK, so you would choose not to dunk on people.

    You could build great gear, it would still take really long. You probably wouldn't want to lose it to PK, so you wouldn't dunk on people but you would... still manhandle anyone who didn't have similar gear? I don't think that's what George implied, so.

    You could grab some average but good gear that you don't mind losing to PK, now you can only beat people with similar gear, right? But if getting the great gear and the really really good gear took so long... then most people won't have it, and you'd just beat on the people that don't have it and wait for the strongest to show up and delete you because you can't hurt them, right?

    How do you even balance this? How can gear both be 'super hard to get and take extremely long', and yet 'average gear not be the default for PK'?

    Is average gear also more than 40 hours to get, each? Won't it be in high supply because people constantly need it, to get past the gear tier where the PKers can stand up to them? If this thread is about 'making people think twice about PKing in average/underleveled gear', then I definitely don't understand how this works.

    I've studied L2's economy a LOT now since everyone's basically been saying that this game is meant to be another iteration of it, and I cannot figure out what data point I'm missing that makes what you're saying make sense, which is why I left the argument to NiKr. Talking to me about it will just be confusing due to my ignorance on the matter.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish ♪
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2023
    i was replying to you saying that you and your group didnt mind losing gear. but i understand that you think 60 hours is a long time to get gear.

    if you have great gear and people tried to pk you with normal gear, you just kill them. thats why im saying the difference between gear tiers is more important than the overall power gear provides.

    they would only pk you if they have a bunch of allies near them waiting for you to flag back. so the pker wont be able to beat you in a 1v1, or in a party vs party since you have better gear, but since they have 100 allies next to them and your alone, you wont go purple because you will get deleted with 0 consequences for your enemies. this is what george was talking about.

    if cheap gear is made such that people you attack wont take any damage if they are wearing great gear, then that problem goes away. but then we have another problem, which you also mentioned. people in great gear will just dunk on lesser geared people giving them no chance to win, which is fine by me tbh. all you have to do is not flag back nd they will top, or leave the area. other factors such a skill should matter when gear is equal.

    so its probably best to let intrepid figure it out since they have all the information we dont.


    edit: why u always add a line trying to make me not reply to you, saying it will confuse you, or you dont understand or something weird like that?
  • Enigmatic SageEnigmatic Sage Member
    edited October 2023
    Item enhance will have a soft cap to the point where there is a relatively fair pay off for the risk vs reward before the pay off may not even be worth it anymore especially with the risk of item loss.

    IE:
    you may see many players have a +9 enhanced item and rarely come across a player with a +12. The difference may not even be that significant between a 9 and 12 but still valuable to have if you were lucky enough to acquire it. a +13 may have such a high risk of failure you may never see one.

    This is just an example and speculation. I am not 100% on this. Obviously there will be those who will be gluttonous gamblers and try to risk it all but that doesn't mean they'll always beat you in a 1v1.


    EDIT:

    the difference between a +9 and a +10 could only be like 3% increase with an 80% failure rate but the difference between a +10 and +11 could be 2% with a 85% failure rate. This could continue until it gets down to a 1% difference with a something like 99% failure rate.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2023
    Depraved wrote: »
    i was replying to you saying that you and your group didnt mind losing gear. but i understand that you think 60 hours is a long time to get gear.

    if you have great gear and people tried to pk you with normal gear, you just kill them. thats why im saying the difference between gear tiers is more important than the overall power gear provides.

    I don't think 60 hours is a long time to get gear. I said that's when I start to care about the feeling of losing it. It's probably still relevant enough, but I'm not sure.
    Depraved wrote: »
    they would only pk you if they have a bunch of allies near them waiting for you to flag back. so the pker wont be able to beat you in a 1v1, or in a party vs party since you have better gear, but since they have 100 allies next to them and your alone, you wont go purple because you will get deleted with 0 consequences for your enemies. this is what george was talking about.

    Why didn't those allies join in on killing you? Were they concerned about someone else nearby that might fight them? Who? Why isn't that person just killing the PK player? If the group wants the target dead and the scapegoat can't finish that target, they should help kill the target.

    Depraved wrote: »
    edit: why u always add a line trying to make me not reply to you, saying it will confuse you, or you dont understand or something weird like that?

    Because I generally don't want to keep talking, but I consider it rude to just dip out of a conversation when the other person is trying to come to an understanding.

    But I will change this behaviour when it comes to you.

    I'm done talking to you, I don't care, I was talking to James and that came up because of James' response to something I was 'saying to Intrepid'. But I like talking to James, so I actually responded. This falls under PvP/PK incentives which is a topic where I just trust NiKr, until I see some evidence that this game isn't just L3 with extra steps (in that department).
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish ♪
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2023
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    they would only pk you if they have a bunch of allies near them waiting for you to flag back. so the pker wont be able to beat you in a 1v1, or in a party vs party since you have better gear, but since they have 100 allies next to them and your alone, you wont go purple because you will get deleted with 0 consequences for your enemies. this is what george was talking about.

    Why didn't those allies join in on killing you? Were they concerned about someone else nearby that might fight them? Who? Why isn't that person just killing the PK player? If the group wants the target dead and the scapegoat can't finish that target, they should help kill the target.

    the allies didnt kill you because they are the ones with valuable gear. they use designated pk characters with cheap gear -_-


    if you dont flag, you die. if the red char dies because an enemy alliance showed up, it doesnt matter because they only lost cheap gear as opposed to having characters with good gear dying and losing it. and if you flag, you die anyway and much faster. this is the issue we are discussing here.
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    edit: why u always add a line trying to make me not reply to you, saying it will confuse you, or you dont understand or something weird like that?

    Because I generally don't want to keep talking, but I consider it rude to just dip out of a conversation when the other person is trying to come to an understanding.

    But I will change this behaviour when it comes to you.

    I'm done talking to you, I don't care, I was talking to James and that came up because of James' response to something I was 'saying to Intrepid'. But I like talking to James, so I actually responded. This falls under PvP/PK incentives which is a topic where I just trust NiKr, until I see some evidence that this game isn't just L3 with extra steps (in that department).



    see i like this type of answer much more ;3

    and yes, this game is l3. aoc is more similar to l2 than tl is to l2

    edit: also, while nkr wasnt wrong, he plays in high rate p.servers where the best gear is basically cheap/easy to get gear -_-
  • JamesSunderlandJamesSunderland Member
    edited October 2023
    Azherae wrote: »
    JamesSunderland wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    I'd like to throw in the point here that losing gear is a weak and ineffective punishment against going red in general.

    This is only true if gear is too easily acquirable(something i believe George doesn't want to be a thing) or represents too little of a character power(what george really doesn't want to be a thing) the harder to get gear is the more punishing losing it becomes.

    I expect Ashes gear to be reasonably close to as hard to acquire as Lineage2 gear was.

    Also, I don't really know what's 'hard to acquire' here, so could you clarify?

    I can say that losing gear that takes 20h to get is no issue to me, I spend more time than that practicing a single combo that I probably never even use, for example.

    I think I would start to care at around 60h, personally. I'm on the higher end of my group for that, but not at the tier of our Enforcer who might not even have a limit...

    That man will grind for a month to get a gearpiece to use for one fight in the whole game. That's why he's the Enforcer.

    EDIT: Realized I should either have left off the example or clarified it, so here's the clarification. I know that most people will care about losing their gear, that's why they want the option to swap to cheap gear and why it would be good for that option to be less, but I'm on NiKr's side here where you will get a less organic game if weak gear people just stand no chance and therefore can't be bothered to EITHER defend themselves or 'try an attack or two'. So based on the idea of a game where people actually fight, then the only problem people are people who will just find their way to PK during their short term goals, and those people might be more like me.

    By hard to acquire i use 2 measurements "time necessary to acquire" and "Difficulty of the content to acquire[pvp included]" (bypassable by buying it but possibly multipling its time to acquire it).

    The problem as you pointed is how much time to get the gear varies from people to people for them to consider it meaningful and "hard to get"(and possibly the difficulty of the content to get it) but a reasonable number of hours seems possible as a baseline for the majority.

    And yes i do acknowledge that the harder to get the gear is the bigger of a barrier it becomes for new players to reach aswell as the problems related to gear power disparity.

    It's honestly tiring how nicely balanced it needs to be to properly deal with gear power disparity with all those aspects and avoiding disregarding skill or making gear completely meaningless making the PK punishment way less meaningful. I believe Lineage 2 reached a nice balance in this regard in later versions.

    "How do you even balance this? How can gear both be 'super hard to get and take extremely long', and yet 'average gear not be the default for PK'?"

    A META PK gear will be found in Ashes, it's just bound to happen, and people will use it in higher level characters to trash on low level low gear players(i expect those type of players to be a very
    small minority like in L2, even smaller than the bounty hunter not aiming for the bigger fishes).
    But the thing is how impactiful in its potential it will be, how viable or effective timewise said gear will need to be to PK the people with High/Top Gear in the context of contesting content through PKing to acquire said high/top Gear of said content.
    In George's example of rogues in L2 it was only possible due to class balance issues and not gear power issues and that was still something not prevalent due to how hard to level said PK characters it was in L2.
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    see i like this type of answer much more ;3

    I'm legit glad to hear that, it's easy to adapt.
    Depraved wrote: »
    and yes, this game is l3. aoc is more similar to l2 than tl is to l2

    Yeah, so I've noticed. I've basically already moved on since TL is the hybrid I wanted and Ashes might be something else entirely.

    But like another certain poster on these forums, I sorta committed to helping with data and testing, so I'm still here.

    Also I can't be High Priestess of anything in TL yet.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish ♪
  • JamesSunderlandJamesSunderland Member
    edited October 2023
    George_Black wrote: »
    JamesSunderland wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Checked out of curiosity.
    48r5sdap42dn.png

    Crits against the weakest (def wise) mage (or was SH even weaker, I forget) in the game are in fact quite nice. But the response from the mage is as deadly.

    The crits could've been even higher as the archer is missing the Blessing of Queen skill1331.png buff and the +4 STR dye, Daggers and Archers Non-gear Character power truly was insane in the earlier versions but they were eventually indirectly maimed in later version with the introduction of things like:
    Chant of Protection(-30% total critical damage received)skill1461.png
    Counter Critical(-30% total critical damage received) skill1542.png
    Eye of Pa'agrio(-30% chance to received a Critical Hit)skill1364.png
    {PvP}Robe Armor Critical Down triggered skill(-15% total critical damage received -15% chance to received a Critical Hit)

    This + buffing other classes skill power and giving those skills the possibility to crit was Lineage 2's way of dealing with the Daggers and Archers Non-Gear character power unbalance, and i would say it was pretty effective.

    Now I want you to do the same about Mages PK potential before critical magic attacks, in the era of Homunculus Sword and Sword of Valhala.

    Ah this one was way more direct NCsoft straight up directly nerfed mages Magical critical damage multiplier which was static ~400% to around ~300% and nerfed baseline % elemental damage during Freya version.
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
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