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The case for gear to provide more than 40-50% of a characters power.

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Comments

  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    This all reminds me, L2 players...

    If Steven says 'a character's power', what is he likely to be including here?

    Like, in FFXI, food alone is 20-25% of 'a character's power', depending on class.

    Teammates are another 10% (and I don't mean buffs, nor even Skillchains, there's specific things you can't do without at least other people). But it probably doesn't mean this?

    Buffs, presuming you have a meaningful buff-er, is either 20-25% or 'even' if you are counting 'character power' as 'their base power as a fraction of their party'.

    Weather and day are another 10% depending.

    Gear is obviously a big deal if we're talking about going from 'naked' to 'full personal BiS', but the gap is more like 12% between 'an NPC sells me this or someone crafts it because of a Guild contract' and 'this is the best non-Relic gear for this slot in my build' (I wanna say 16%, 1% per gear slot, but obv different gear slots matter more than others).

    But if I think 'no food, no teammates, neutral day/weather (or a class that isn't much affected by them), then gear can be 30-35% for sure, statistically.

    L2 has other systems like Soulshots, so it's hard to know.

    well. i believe that if you want combat to be more fair, your power should be distributed between different factors such as gear, char stats, buffs, consumables, possibly other things you equip that arent necessarily gear (like how you have cards, and gods,a nd religion and shit in other games), runes, etc. and reduce outside factors (like p2w, ping, etc) in favor of in game factors. all this is for a tab targetted mmorpg though.

    but in the case of aoc, gear needs to matter a great deal, more than other stuff, because of the corruption system. is gear doesnt matter much then people wont care and go red all the time because theres no losing anything of value.

    Disclaimer: I absolutely know that what I'm about to say is a fairly bad take. I'm happy to be called out on its details, but you don't need to spend any time telling me that it's a bad take in itself.

    This just sounds to me like Ashes has another inconsistency in its design. If combat is supposed to be tactical and fair, the punishments and style of the corruption system don't gel with it. If combat is supposed to be the usual Korean-game-tier of absolutely crushing anyone who doesn't realize how well geared you are, then George is obviously right and gear should be most of your power.

    Now obviously there are some ... reasons... culturally, why Korean games work like that, but if we are going by 'Western' culture in game design, then it sounds like lifting the PK Punishment system from a Korean game might not be the best fit.

    If everything is supposed to work together, and they have to choose, I hope they choose George's path. But if they are committed to the 'battles should be tactical' design, then gear needs to stay the way it is, and it's Corruption that needs to change.

    you can have combat that is tactical and fair, between people that have the same gear. who says you cant?

    i should have clarified when i said fair in my post. i meant fair for newer players, or people who dont spend as much time in the game or if gear is too hard to acquire, so you could still have a chance to win if you have gear 1 tier below the other dude, but you also have the same buffs, food, etc and you are a better player.

    if you both have the same gear, food, buffs, etc, the better player will usually win (assuming your class don't have a huge advantage on the other) and thats a fair fight, even if your gear matters a lot.
  • RuerikRuerik Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I saw the several posts about expansions continuing the gear treadmill, which normally allows for catchup gear for newbies.

    I just wanted to point out, that by time these massive spikes in gear gaps supposedly will happen (assuming no catchup vendor gear), the skill gap between vets and newer players will be insurmountable

    Those of us that will pvp all the time since day1, will have learned the classes we play inside and out, as well as all the combos and skills from the other classes and have the experience to go with that knowledge of how to counterplay.

    Can just look at older games like gw2, on jobs like mesmer or engineer or elementalist (weaver ele just got buffed too). It takes hundreds to thousands of hours of play for the people throwing out good 1vX videos to get to where they are. No one is coming in to the game with just a few dozen hours played and expect to compete. They usually play the meta OP classes that are fotm specifically because they can't compete with the skill the other jobs have. (Looking at gw2 necromancers for exampel)

    What that means, or at least my interpretation, is these gear gaps are meant to be there for vets to have power gaps between other vets. Newer players CAN catch up eventually, after expacs (again, assuming catchup vendor gear), but then will find themselves progressing slower anyway due to the massive skillgap between them and the vets, and will remain behind them until they put in the time to learn all the things and get the experience the vets have.
    iHFwzm7.png
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    But if you can choose not to take that passive, and instead take something else, we know that because that Passive exists, for that number to be 'mostly true' you would still need the weapon to give +20 Whatever. Note that I'm not saying this is complex or hard. Lots of games do this, no problem, it's part of design. I'm just being lazy about going to check all the L2 data to figure out which things to count and which things to not.
    Here I would agree with Noaani's assumption that any skill/passive build the player can get (including class augments and potentially other augments, though I'm not sure about those) would give you roughly the same amount of "power". So in relation to them the weapon/gear would provide you with relatively same % of your overall power. Which would then be amplified by all the other multipliers (in case Steven is in fact talking about "innate" player power and not the finished product after all buffs and synergies).
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Taerrik wrote: »
    What that means, or at least my interpretation, is these gear gaps are meant to be there for vets to have power gaps between other vets.

    This is quite well said.

    To the veteran player, gear should provide an advantage over other veteran players. You should be striving to get better gear in order to gain this advantage, and also striving to prevent your rivals from getting this advantage.

    This is literally what we PvP over.

    If a veteran player (by extension, someone that knows the game mechanics inside out) can't see any real value in spending time fighting over an item upgrade, why would they fight over it? Some may say something like "to stop their rivals getting it", but if there is no value in the item for this veteran player, there is no value in it for their rival. This veteran player has no reason to try and prevent their rival from getting this item upgrade.

    Without character progression, we are just fighting for the sake of fighting, rather than fighting to try and progress. Without character progression, fighting is meaningless - the game is meaningless.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2023
    Doesn't EQ2 toons have thousands of potential health? Some buffs add 3000% health. The health pools in Ashes for the toons are far less substantial (Haven't seen a level 50 though). That in itself should indicate you won't see 1000%'s difference in power between level 1 and level 50. Especially since Augments are the sources of power after level 25 and especially seeing enchantments on weapons and armour can go to +14. Its all relative and until I can work out the formulas I'm not taking other games as defacto power level prognosis.

    Furthermore, if gear adds 50% power, that is a substantial boost. Because, that indicates white gear will give 50%, orange gear might give 75% power increase or more. We just don't know the numbers right now. Thus, it might be a misnomer to request 80% power increase at white level when orange level gives the same benefit. That would make orange gear with +14 enchantment to be +100% or more in power gain over a naked toon of the same level. That's like a 2vs1.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    Doesn't EQ2 toons have thousands of potential health? Some buffs add 3000% health.
    Yes and no.

    Characters currently have hundreds of thousands of HP (20 years of yearly expansions will do this), but there are no buffs that give 3000% to HP - at least not in the way you are probably thinking.

    Like many games, EQ2 stats work off of a base, rather than the total. A character may have 100,000 HP, but of that only perhaps 1k would be the base. Thus, a theoretical buff that incrased HP by 3000% would add 3k HP to a character with 100,000 HP.

    The numbers above are somewhat theoretical, but the point remains.

    There are no buffs (or - were not buffs) in EQ2 that trippled a characters HP.

    As with any game though, the actual numbers can be (and should be) totally ignored. A situation where you are fighting something with 10HP and are dealing 1 point of damage per attack is functionally identicle to a situation where you are fighting something with 100,000HP and are dealing 10,000 points of damage per attack.
    That in itself should indicate you won't see 1000%'s difference in power between level 1 and level 50. Especially since Augments are the sources of power after level 25 and especially seeing enchantments on weapons and armour can go to +14.
    IMO you have this backwards.

    There will be 1000%'s difference in power between a level 1 and a level 50. At level 1, we will probably have access to 2 or 3 abilities, and they will be weak.

    At level 50, we will have access to dozens. This in itself is a massive increase in power - before we even factor in that abilities at level 50 will hit significantly harder. I mean, a level 1 character with access to every ability in their class would be rediculously overpowered - even if every ability is dealing level 1 damage.

    However, we do still need to factor in the additional damage from leveling.

    Then we also need to factor in those augments you mention. They will add more power, and since you are talking here about the difference in power between a level 1 and a level 50, these augments are indeed a part of that.

    Then you have enchantment. In theoretical terms, sure, a level 1 may have access to enchanting. However, in practical terms, they will not. 99% of all enchanting will be something that players do at the level cap, once they have reasonable gear. That +14 levels of enchantment that you are talking about actually increase the gap in power between level 1 and level 50 characters.
    Neurath wrote: »
    Furthermore, if gear adds 50% power, that is a substantial boost. Because, that indicates white gear will give 50%, orange gear might give 75% power increase or more. We just don't know the numbers right now. Thus, it might be a misnomer to request 80% power increase at white level when orange level gives the same benefit. That would make orange gear with +14 enchantment to be +100% or more in power gain over a naked toon of the same level. That's like a 2vs1.
    Without Steven clarifying (there is no point in him clarifying) these comments of his are meaningless.

    Steven could well be talking about the difference in power between a newly made character and a level capped character being 50% gear based. That would mean gear provides more of a total power boost in Ashes than it does in any other game ever created (hyperbole, but only just - I have not played every game ever created to qualify that statement).

    On the other hand, Steven could be talking about just level capped players - the difference being 50%. Even this isn't clear though. We can probably assume the top end of what he is talking about is a character with best in slot items - but we have no idea what it is he is comparing it to.

    It is feasable that he is talking about the base quality of gear that a new level capped player has. It is feasable that he is talking about a naked level capped player. It is feasable that he is talking about the worst gear that a level capped player could have. It is feasable that he its talking about the gear that someone at the level cap could get with minimal effort.

    All of these are feasable, and the results of each is vastly different.

    This is why that statement means nothing.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Doesn't EQ2 toons have thousands of potential health? Some buffs add 3000% health.
    Yes and no.

    Characters currently have hundreds of thousands of HP (20 years of yearly expansions will do this), but there are no buffs that give 3000% to HP - at least not in the way you are probably thinking.

    Like many games, EQ2 stats work off of a base, rather than the total. A character may have 100,000 HP, but of that only perhaps 1k would be the base. Thus, a theoretical buff that incrased HP by 3000% would add 3k HP to a character with 100,000 HP.

    The numbers above are somewhat theoretical, but the point remains.

    There are no buffs (or - were not buffs) in EQ2 that trippled a characters HP.

    As with any game though, the actual numbers can be (and should be) totally ignored. A situation where you are fighting something with 10HP and are dealing 1 point of damage per attack is functionally identicle to a situation where you are fighting something with 100,000HP and are dealing 10,000 points of damage per attack.
    That in itself should indicate you won't see 1000%'s difference in power between level 1 and level 50. Especially since Augments are the sources of power after level 25 and especially seeing enchantments on weapons and armour can go to +14.
    IMO you have this backwards.

    There will be 1000%'s difference in power between a level 1 and a level 50. At level 1, we will probably have access to 2 or 3 abilities, and they will be weak.

    At level 50, we will have access to dozens. This in itself is a massive increase in power - before we even factor in that abilities at level 50 will hit significantly harder. I mean, a level 1 character with access to every ability in their class would be rediculously overpowered - even if every ability is dealing level 1 damage.

    However, we do still need to factor in the additional damage from leveling.

    Then we also need to factor in those augments you mention. They will add more power, and since you are talking here about the difference in power between a level 1 and a level 50, these augments are indeed a part of that.

    Then you have enchantment. In theoretical terms, sure, a level 1 may have access to enchanting. However, in practical terms, they will not. 99% of all enchanting will be something that players do at the level cap, once they have reasonable gear. That +14 levels of enchantment that you are talking about actually increase the gap in power between level 1 and level 50 characters.
    Neurath wrote: »
    Furthermore, if gear adds 50% power, that is a substantial boost. Because, that indicates white gear will give 50%, orange gear might give 75% power increase or more. We just don't know the numbers right now. Thus, it might be a misnomer to request 80% power increase at white level when orange level gives the same benefit. That would make orange gear with +14 enchantment to be +100% or more in power gain over a naked toon of the same level. That's like a 2vs1.
    Without Steven clarifying (there is no point in him clarifying) these comments of his are meaningless.

    Steven could well be talking about the difference in power between a newly made character and a level capped character being 50% gear based. That would mean gear provides more of a total power boost in Ashes than it does in any other game ever created (hyperbole, but only just - I have not played every game ever created to qualify that statement).

    On the other hand, Steven could be talking about just level capped players - the difference being 50%. Even this isn't clear though. We can probably assume the top end of what he is talking about is a character with best in slot items - but we have no idea what it is he is comparing it to.

    It is feasable that he is talking about the base quality of gear that a new level capped player has. It is feasable that he is talking about a naked level capped player. It is feasable that he is talking about the worst gear that a level capped player could have. It is feasable that he its talking about the gear that someone at the level cap could get with minimal effort.

    All of these are feasable, and the results of each is vastly different.

    This is why that statement means nothing.

    Yes, I understand the difference between 1 move at level 1 and 200 at max level thanks to WoW. However, we are not talking about the difference between ability numbers, we are talking about the basic power gain from armour. Also, if you hover over the health in some EQ2 versions it will tell you the health buff is 3000% at max level (Currently 3040% health in some versions). That's the buff I referred to.

    I never take Steven's word on anything. The combat devs will balance the systems. However, the basic concepts should be sound and you do not go adding 14 tiers on top of base tier to create thousands of % in difference. It would break the balance in sieges and pvp. Granted, most people in sieges will use the best equipment they can field but we have things like Siege Golems and such to give the differential challenges in power percentage.

    However, Steven did play L2 and L2 had Olympians so perhaps there will be huge disparities between white level gear and orange gear at +14. Furthermore, I'm not sure how much power gain a PvP Augment will add from the Arena victories. Those augments could also create an Olympian type toon for a short time span. We have fixated on weapons and gear but there are many sources of potential power in Ashes.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited October 2023
    Neurath wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Doesn't EQ2 toons have thousands of potential health? Some buffs add 3000% health.
    Yes and no.

    Characters currently have hundreds of thousands of HP (20 years of yearly expansions will do this), but there are no buffs that give 3000% to HP - at least not in the way you are probably thinking.

    Like many games, EQ2 stats work off of a base, rather than the total. A character may have 100,000 HP, but of that only perhaps 1k would be the base. Thus, a theoretical buff that incrased HP by 3000% would add 3k HP to a character with 100,000 HP.

    The numbers above are somewhat theoretical, but the point remains.

    There are no buffs (or - were not buffs) in EQ2 that trippled a characters HP.

    As with any game though, the actual numbers can be (and should be) totally ignored. A situation where you are fighting something with 10HP and are dealing 1 point of damage per attack is functionally identicle to a situation where you are fighting something with 100,000HP and are dealing 10,000 points of damage per attack.
    That in itself should indicate you won't see 1000%'s difference in power between level 1 and level 50. Especially since Augments are the sources of power after level 25 and especially seeing enchantments on weapons and armour can go to +14.
    IMO you have this backwards.

    There will be 1000%'s difference in power between a level 1 and a level 50. At level 1, we will probably have access to 2 or 3 abilities, and they will be weak.

    At level 50, we will have access to dozens. This in itself is a massive increase in power - before we even factor in that abilities at level 50 will hit significantly harder. I mean, a level 1 character with access to every ability in their class would be rediculously overpowered - even if every ability is dealing level 1 damage.

    However, we do still need to factor in the additional damage from leveling.

    Then we also need to factor in those augments you mention. They will add more power, and since you are talking here about the difference in power between a level 1 and a level 50, these augments are indeed a part of that.

    Then you have enchantment. In theoretical terms, sure, a level 1 may have access to enchanting. However, in practical terms, they will not. 99% of all enchanting will be something that players do at the level cap, once they have reasonable gear. That +14 levels of enchantment that you are talking about actually increase the gap in power between level 1 and level 50 characters.
    Neurath wrote: »
    Furthermore, if gear adds 50% power, that is a substantial boost. Because, that indicates white gear will give 50%, orange gear might give 75% power increase or more. We just don't know the numbers right now. Thus, it might be a misnomer to request 80% power increase at white level when orange level gives the same benefit. That would make orange gear with +14 enchantment to be +100% or more in power gain over a naked toon of the same level. That's like a 2vs1.
    Without Steven clarifying (there is no point in him clarifying) these comments of his are meaningless.

    Steven could well be talking about the difference in power between a newly made character and a level capped character being 50% gear based. That would mean gear provides more of a total power boost in Ashes than it does in any other game ever created (hyperbole, but only just - I have not played every game ever created to qualify that statement).

    On the other hand, Steven could be talking about just level capped players - the difference being 50%. Even this isn't clear though. We can probably assume the top end of what he is talking about is a character with best in slot items - but we have no idea what it is he is comparing it to.

    It is feasable that he is talking about the base quality of gear that a new level capped player has. It is feasable that he is talking about a naked level capped player. It is feasable that he is talking about the worst gear that a level capped player could have. It is feasable that he its talking about the gear that someone at the level cap could get with minimal effort.

    All of these are feasable, and the results of each is vastly different.

    This is why that statement means nothing.

    Yes, I understand the difference between 1 move at level 1 and 200 at max level thanks to WoW. However, we are not talking about the difference between ability numbers, we are talking about the basic power gain from armour. Also, if you hover over the health in some EQ2 versions it will tell you the health buff is 3000% at max level (Currently 3040% health in some versions). That's the buff I referred to.
    Without knowing which ability you are talking about, I can't really comment.

    When I played EQ2 there was nothing even close to that powerful - even taking in to account what I said above about the difference between base and total. Additionally, almost every effect that was percent based didn't get upgraded at all (if it is percent gain, there is no need to improve it).
    I never take Steven's word on anything. The combat devs will balance the systems. However, the basic concepts should be sound and you do not go adding 14 tiers on top of base tier to create thousands of % in difference.
    Yeah, but we aren't talking thousands of percent. Since the comment was in relation to the percent of character power from gear, we literally can't be talking thousands of percent.
  • Well based on information provided in the wiki from item repairs...

    Looks like you'll be able to farm and enchant your way to the top without risk of literally destroying the item(s). So the case for player power from gear is just a matter of how much you farmed and were successful on the item enchant procs.... It's very similar to skill tree and abilities vs items. Just an illusive way to say the same thing.

    In some ways it's very similar to wow... higher the level, more skill points to allocate... higher end gear boosts player power through stats.

    Just get a 2-3 sets made at max level and enchant them all sequentially. Make sure you farm enough for repairs or pay for materials to do repairs. That way if one is temporarily useless( aka "destroyed") .. you got two back ups. Then just leap frog your gear quality to the top tier until you essentially have max gear.

    You'll just hit that metaphorical plateau sooner or later. Literally same thing just different.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Well based on information provided in the wiki from item repairs...

    Looks like you'll be able to farm and enchant your way to the top without risk of literally destroying the item(s). So the case for player power from gear is just a matter of how much you farmed and were successful on the item enchant procs.... It's very similar to skill tree and abilities vs items. Just an illusive way to say the same thing.

    In some ways it's very similar to wow... higher the level, more skill points to allocate... higher end gear boosts player power through stats.

    Just get a 2-3 sets made at max level and enchant them all sequentially. Make sure you farm enough for repairs or pay for materials to do repairs. That way if one is temporarily useless( aka "destroyed") .. you got two back ups. Then just leap frog your gear quality to the top tier until you essentially have max gear.

    You'll just hit that metaphorical plateau sooner or later. Literally same thing just different.

    This is half accurate but well written. In truth, Over Enchanting runs the risk of permanent destruction and loss of items if the enchantment fails. You run the risk of loss every time you push higher. Still, the bdo tactic is the best method to push with.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • Neurath wrote: »
    Well based on information provided in the wiki from item repairs...

    Looks like you'll be able to farm and enchant your way to the top without risk of literally destroying the item(s). So the case for player power from gear is just a matter of how much you farmed and were successful on the item enchant procs.... It's very similar to skill tree and abilities vs items. Just an illusive way to say the same thing.

    In some ways it's very similar to wow... higher the level, more skill points to allocate... higher end gear boosts player power through stats.

    Just get a 2-3 sets made at max level and enchant them all sequentially. Make sure you farm enough for repairs or pay for materials to do repairs. That way if one is temporarily useless( aka "destroyed") .. you got two back ups. Then just leap frog your gear quality to the top tier until you essentially have max gear.

    You'll just hit that metaphorical plateau sooner or later. Literally same thing just different.

    This is half accurate but well written. In truth, Over Enchanting runs the risk of permanent destruction and loss of items if the enchantment fails. You run the risk of loss every time you push higher. Still, the bdo tactic is the best method to push with.

    permanent? nope look i thought it was too. but according to the wiki

    https://ashes.wiki/Item_repair

    Over-enchanting carries the risk of destroying that item[30], rendering it useless for use temporarily.[31]
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Yeah, it's one of the contested design directions. And I'm fairly sure they'll stick with indestructible gear because people FUCKING HATED the fact that OE could destroy gear.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Yeah, it's one of the contested design directions. And I'm fairly sure they'll stick with indestructible gear because people FUCKING HATED the fact that OE could destroy gear.

    "Look bro can I please just play the game?"
    Y'all know how Jamberry Roll.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    Well based on information provided in the wiki from item repairs...

    Looks like you'll be able to farm and enchant your way to the top without risk of literally destroying the item(s). So the case for player power from gear is just a matter of how much you farmed and were successful on the item enchant procs.... It's very similar to skill tree and abilities vs items. Just an illusive way to say the same thing.

    In some ways it's very similar to wow... higher the level, more skill points to allocate... higher end gear boosts player power through stats.

    Just get a 2-3 sets made at max level and enchant them all sequentially. Make sure you farm enough for repairs or pay for materials to do repairs. That way if one is temporarily useless( aka "destroyed") .. you got two back ups. Then just leap frog your gear quality to the top tier until you essentially have max gear.

    You'll just hit that metaphorical plateau sooner or later. Literally same thing just different.

    This is half accurate but well written. In truth, Over Enchanting runs the risk of permanent destruction and loss of items if the enchantment fails. You run the risk of loss every time you push higher. Still, the bdo tactic is the best method to push with.

    permanent? nope look i thought it was too. but according to the wiki

    https://ashes.wiki/Item_repair

    Over-enchanting carries the risk of destroying that item[30], rendering it useless for use temporarily.[31]

    I see your reference and I raise you one sandal:

    Over-enchanting items comes with a potential risk that the item decays or is destroyed if a safety margin is exceeded. This system is subject to testing.[8][9][10]
    It's a progressive tier of risk. At lower levels you have opportunities to potentially lose out on the pluses instead of breaking the equipment. But when you reach a certain threshold, there is an opportunity to essentially destroy the equipment, where you get resources back. But that's a risk that the player takes.[8] – Steven Sharif
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • Neurath wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Well based on information provided in the wiki from item repairs...

    Looks like you'll be able to farm and enchant your way to the top without risk of literally destroying the item(s). So the case for player power from gear is just a matter of how much you farmed and were successful on the item enchant procs.... It's very similar to skill tree and abilities vs items. Just an illusive way to say the same thing.

    In some ways it's very similar to wow... higher the level, more skill points to allocate... higher end gear boosts player power through stats.

    Just get a 2-3 sets made at max level and enchant them all sequentially. Make sure you farm enough for repairs or pay for materials to do repairs. That way if one is temporarily useless( aka "destroyed") .. you got two back ups. Then just leap frog your gear quality to the top tier until you essentially have max gear.

    You'll just hit that metaphorical plateau sooner or later. Literally same thing just different.

    This is half accurate but well written. In truth, Over Enchanting runs the risk of permanent destruction and loss of items if the enchantment fails. You run the risk of loss every time you push higher. Still, the bdo tactic is the best method to push with.

    permanent? nope look i thought it was too. but according to the wiki

    https://ashes.wiki/Item_repair

    Over-enchanting carries the risk of destroying that item[30], rendering it useless for use temporarily.[31]

    I see your reference and I raise you one sandal:

    Over-enchanting items comes with a potential risk that the item decays or is destroyed if a safety margin is exceeded. This system is subject to testing.[8][9][10]
    It's a progressive tier of risk. At lower levels you have opportunities to potentially lose out on the pluses instead of breaking the equipment. But when you reach a certain threshold, there is an opportunity to essentially destroy the equipment, where you get resources back. But that's a risk that the player takes.[8] – Steven Sharif

    it still stands as is originally stated. Look at @NiKr post above.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2023
    Neurath wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Well based on information provided in the wiki from item repairs...

    Looks like you'll be able to farm and enchant your way to the top without risk of literally destroying the item(s). So the case for player power from gear is just a matter of how much you farmed and were successful on the item enchant procs.... It's very similar to skill tree and abilities vs items. Just an illusive way to say the same thing.

    In some ways it's very similar to wow... higher the level, more skill points to allocate... higher end gear boosts player power through stats.

    Just get a 2-3 sets made at max level and enchant them all sequentially. Make sure you farm enough for repairs or pay for materials to do repairs. That way if one is temporarily useless( aka "destroyed") .. you got two back ups. Then just leap frog your gear quality to the top tier until you essentially have max gear.

    You'll just hit that metaphorical plateau sooner or later. Literally same thing just different.

    This is half accurate but well written. In truth, Over Enchanting runs the risk of permanent destruction and loss of items if the enchantment fails. You run the risk of loss every time you push higher. Still, the bdo tactic is the best method to push with.

    permanent? nope look i thought it was too. but according to the wiki

    https://ashes.wiki/Item_repair

    Over-enchanting carries the risk of destroying that item[30], rendering it useless for use temporarily.[31]

    I see your reference and I raise you one sandal:

    Over-enchanting items comes with a potential risk that the item decays or is destroyed if a safety margin is exceeded. This system is subject to testing.[8][9][10]
    It's a progressive tier of risk. At lower levels you have opportunities to potentially lose out on the pluses instead of breaking the equipment. But when you reach a certain threshold, there is an opportunity to essentially destroy the equipment, where you get resources back. But that's a risk that the player takes.[8] – Steven Sharif

    it still stands as is originally stated. Look at @NiKr post above.

    I still believe Stevens quotes more than other quotes. I made a mistake and went with another half quote years ago and have found that the information gleaned was not accurate. Thus, I only go by direct and full quotes until Steven states otherwise.

    Yeah I'm in the right. I've checked your reference and the reference is only half a reference. If you check enchantment ashes wiki then you will get the full story.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • Neurath wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Well based on information provided in the wiki from item repairs...

    Looks like you'll be able to farm and enchant your way to the top without risk of literally destroying the item(s). So the case for player power from gear is just a matter of how much you farmed and were successful on the item enchant procs.... It's very similar to skill tree and abilities vs items. Just an illusive way to say the same thing.

    In some ways it's very similar to wow... higher the level, more skill points to allocate... higher end gear boosts player power through stats.

    Just get a 2-3 sets made at max level and enchant them all sequentially. Make sure you farm enough for repairs or pay for materials to do repairs. That way if one is temporarily useless( aka "destroyed") .. you got two back ups. Then just leap frog your gear quality to the top tier until you essentially have max gear.

    You'll just hit that metaphorical plateau sooner or later. Literally same thing just different.

    This is half accurate but well written. In truth, Over Enchanting runs the risk of permanent destruction and loss of items if the enchantment fails. You run the risk of loss every time you push higher. Still, the bdo tactic is the best method to push with.

    permanent? nope look i thought it was too. but according to the wiki

    https://ashes.wiki/Item_repair

    Over-enchanting carries the risk of destroying that item[30], rendering it useless for use temporarily.[31]

    I see your reference and I raise you one sandal:

    Over-enchanting items comes with a potential risk that the item decays or is destroyed if a safety margin is exceeded. This system is subject to testing.[8][9][10]
    It's a progressive tier of risk. At lower levels you have opportunities to potentially lose out on the pluses instead of breaking the equipment. But when you reach a certain threshold, there is an opportunity to essentially destroy the equipment, where you get resources back. But that's a risk that the player takes.[8] – Steven Sharif

    it still stands as is originally stated. Look at @NiKr post above.

    I still believe Stevens quotes more than other quotes. I made a mistake and went with another half quote years ago and have found that the information gleaned was not accurate. Thus, I only go by direct and full quotes until Steven states otherwise.

    Yeah I'm in the right. I've checked your reference and the reference is only half a reference. If you check enchantment ashes wiki then you will get the full story.

    Based on what I've seen lately, what the goal of the game was vs now. I honestly don't know what to believe with each new dev update and the wiki.

    Sad but true unfortunately.

    Hate to say it like this but it could just be another MMORPG to me by the way things are progressing.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Well based on information provided in the wiki from item repairs...

    Looks like you'll be able to farm and enchant your way to the top without risk of literally destroying the item(s). So the case for player power from gear is just a matter of how much you farmed and were successful on the item enchant procs.... It's very similar to skill tree and abilities vs items. Just an illusive way to say the same thing.

    In some ways it's very similar to wow... higher the level, more skill points to allocate... higher end gear boosts player power through stats.

    Just get a 2-3 sets made at max level and enchant them all sequentially. Make sure you farm enough for repairs or pay for materials to do repairs. That way if one is temporarily useless( aka "destroyed") .. you got two back ups. Then just leap frog your gear quality to the top tier until you essentially have max gear.

    You'll just hit that metaphorical plateau sooner or later. Literally same thing just different.

    This is half accurate but well written. In truth, Over Enchanting runs the risk of permanent destruction and loss of items if the enchantment fails. You run the risk of loss every time you push higher. Still, the bdo tactic is the best method to push with.

    permanent? nope look i thought it was too. but according to the wiki

    https://ashes.wiki/Item_repair

    Over-enchanting carries the risk of destroying that item[30], rendering it useless for use temporarily.[31]

    I see your reference and I raise you one sandal:

    Over-enchanting items comes with a potential risk that the item decays or is destroyed if a safety margin is exceeded. This system is subject to testing.[8][9][10]
    It's a progressive tier of risk. At lower levels you have opportunities to potentially lose out on the pluses instead of breaking the equipment. But when you reach a certain threshold, there is an opportunity to essentially destroy the equipment, where you get resources back. But that's a risk that the player takes.[8] – Steven Sharif

    it still stands as is originally stated. Look at @NiKr post above.

    I still believe Stevens quotes more than other quotes. I made a mistake and went with another half quote years ago and have found that the information gleaned was not accurate. Thus, I only go by direct and full quotes until Steven states otherwise.

    Yeah I'm in the right. I've checked your reference and the reference is only half a reference. If you check enchantment ashes wiki then you will get the full story.

    Based on what I've seen lately, what the goal of the game was vs now. I honestly don't know what to believe with each new dev update and the wiki.

    Sad but true unfortunately.

    Hate to say it like this but it could just be another MMORPG to me by the way things are progressing.

    What you will find is a lot of people project what they think is the case, add plausible flavour and push for the paradigm to exist. However, you can often see Stevens quotes and know that Steven doesn't change his mind unless he directly states his mind is changed - a quote would be present for each component. While I do make requests and state my desires I try not to embellish the ideation.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • Well based on information provided in the wiki from item repairs...

    Looks like you'll be able to farm and enchant your way to the top without risk of literally destroying the item(s). So the case for player power from gear is just a matter of how much you farmed and were successful on the item enchant procs.... It's very similar to skill tree and abilities vs items. Just an illusive way to say the same thing.

    In some ways it's very similar to wow... higher the level, more skill points to allocate... higher end gear boosts player power through stats.

    Just get a 2-3 sets made at max level and enchant them all sequentially. Make sure you farm enough for repairs or pay for materials to do repairs. That way if one is temporarily useless( aka "destroyed") .. you got two back ups. Then just leap frog your gear quality to the top tier until you essentially have max gear.

    You'll just hit that metaphorical plateau sooner or later. Literally same thing just different.

    It might be a lot of work to have and keep 3 sets of gear fully repaired.
    Depends how much durability the gear will lose when you die and how scarce the resources will be.
    If you have to import some resources through the caravan system from the other side of the map, you might have to play quite some time in a lower tier gear. You might equip the best gear only on special occasions, like during the siege of your own node.
  • Neurath wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Well based on information provided in the wiki from item repairs...

    Looks like you'll be able to farm and enchant your way to the top without risk of literally destroying the item(s). So the case for player power from gear is just a matter of how much you farmed and were successful on the item enchant procs.... It's very similar to skill tree and abilities vs items. Just an illusive way to say the same thing.

    In some ways it's very similar to wow... higher the level, more skill points to allocate... higher end gear boosts player power through stats.

    Just get a 2-3 sets made at max level and enchant them all sequentially. Make sure you farm enough for repairs or pay for materials to do repairs. That way if one is temporarily useless( aka "destroyed") .. you got two back ups. Then just leap frog your gear quality to the top tier until you essentially have max gear.

    You'll just hit that metaphorical plateau sooner or later. Literally same thing just different.

    This is half accurate but well written. In truth, Over Enchanting runs the risk of permanent destruction and loss of items if the enchantment fails. You run the risk of loss every time you push higher. Still, the bdo tactic is the best method to push with.

    permanent? nope look i thought it was too. but according to the wiki

    https://ashes.wiki/Item_repair

    Over-enchanting carries the risk of destroying that item[30], rendering it useless for use temporarily.[31]

    I see your reference and I raise you one sandal:

    Over-enchanting items comes with a potential risk that the item decays or is destroyed if a safety margin is exceeded. This system is subject to testing.[8][9][10]
    It's a progressive tier of risk. At lower levels you have opportunities to potentially lose out on the pluses instead of breaking the equipment. But when you reach a certain threshold, there is an opportunity to essentially destroy the equipment, where you get resources back. But that's a risk that the player takes.[8] – Steven Sharif

    it still stands as is originally stated. Look at @NiKr post above.

    I still believe Stevens quotes more than other quotes. I made a mistake and went with another half quote years ago and have found that the information gleaned was not accurate. Thus, I only go by direct and full quotes until Steven states otherwise.

    Yeah I'm in the right. I've checked your reference and the reference is only half a reference. If you check enchantment ashes wiki then you will get the full story.

    Based on what I've seen lately, what the goal of the game was vs now. I honestly don't know what to believe with each new dev update and the wiki.

    Sad but true unfortunately.

    Hate to say it like this but it could just be another MMORPG to me by the way things are progressing.

    What you will find is a lot of people project what they think is the case, add plausible flavour and push for the paradigm to exist. However, you can often see Stevens quotes and know that Steven doesn't change his mind unless he directly states his mind is changed - a quote would be present for each component. While I do make requests and state my desires I try not to embellish the ideation.

    Steven also said "Everything is subject to change" ... except some pillars.
    If something doesn't work, he has to make it work before release, during testing.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    I pray to the sandal that one of these days you people will learn TO REMOVE GOD DAMN PINGS FROM YOUR GOD DAMN QUOTES.
    oi4xs6fjqb4r.gif
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Raven016 wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Well based on information provided in the wiki from item repairs...

    Looks like you'll be able to farm and enchant your way to the top without risk of literally destroying the item(s). So the case for player power from gear is just a matter of how much you farmed and were successful on the item enchant procs.... It's very similar to skill tree and abilities vs items. Just an illusive way to say the same thing.

    In some ways it's very similar to wow... higher the level, more skill points to allocate... higher end gear boosts player power through stats.

    Just get a 2-3 sets made at max level and enchant them all sequentially. Make sure you farm enough for repairs or pay for materials to do repairs. That way if one is temporarily useless( aka "destroyed") .. you got two back ups. Then just leap frog your gear quality to the top tier until you essentially have max gear.

    You'll just hit that metaphorical plateau sooner or later. Literally same thing just different.

    This is half accurate but well written. In truth, Over Enchanting runs the risk of permanent destruction and loss of items if the enchantment fails. You run the risk of loss every time you push higher. Still, the bdo tactic is the best method to push with.

    permanent? nope look i thought it was too. but according to the wiki

    https://ashes.wiki/Item_repair

    Over-enchanting carries the risk of destroying that item[30], rendering it useless for use temporarily.[31]

    I see your reference and I raise you one sandal:

    Over-enchanting items comes with a potential risk that the item decays or is destroyed if a safety margin is exceeded. This system is subject to testing.[8][9][10]
    It's a progressive tier of risk. At lower levels you have opportunities to potentially lose out on the pluses instead of breaking the equipment. But when you reach a certain threshold, there is an opportunity to essentially destroy the equipment, where you get resources back. But that's a risk that the player takes.[8] – Steven Sharif

    it still stands as is originally stated. Look at @NiKr post above.

    I still believe Stevens quotes more than other quotes. I made a mistake and went with another half quote years ago and have found that the information gleaned was not accurate. Thus, I only go by direct and full quotes until Steven states otherwise.

    Yeah I'm in the right. I've checked your reference and the reference is only half a reference. If you check enchantment ashes wiki then you will get the full story.

    Based on what I've seen lately, what the goal of the game was vs now. I honestly don't know what to believe with each new dev update and the wiki.

    Sad but true unfortunately.

    Hate to say it like this but it could just be another MMORPG to me by the way things are progressing.

    What you will find is a lot of people project what they think is the case, add plausible flavour and push for the paradigm to exist. However, you can often see Stevens quotes and know that Steven doesn't change his mind unless he directly states his mind is changed - a quote would be present for each component. While I do make requests and state my desires I try not to embellish the ideation.

    Steven also said "Everything is subject to change" ... except some pillars.
    If something doesn't work, he has to make it work before release, during testing.

    Yes but the quotes will be there at the time. Steven doesn't do stealth changes lol.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Also, I checked the OE quotes and the latest one from 5 months ago is "stuff gets destroyed into mats". So yeah, that's currently the case. We'll see how long that survives. I wish it does till release.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Also, I checked the OE quotes and the latest one from 5 months ago is "stuff gets destroyed into mats". So yeah, that's currently the case. We'll see how long that survives. I wish it does till release.

    Thank you.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Case in point btw :) People like Mag will be yelling off the rooftops about how "destruction bad mkay"
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Item destruction is terrible and leads to people quitting games. This has nothing to do with theme park, no correlation you are just talking crap.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Case in point btw :) People like Mag will be yelling off the rooftops about how "destruction bad mkay"
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Item destruction is terrible and leads to people quitting games. This has nothing to do with theme park, no correlation you are just talking crap.

    Lol. I thought that when I saw the post.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Case in point btw :) People like Mag will be yelling off the rooftops about how "destruction bad mkay"
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Item destruction is terrible and leads to people quitting games. This has nothing to do with theme park, no correlation you are just talking crap.

    Cause there are better ways to approach it that ensures people are on a tread mill that doesn't kill a game.

    Seeing something from 20 years ago be applied to games and literarily not work shows that approach isn't good. There is 0 reason to not evolve it
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    There is 0 reason to not evolve it
    The main reason is Steven's desire for how he wants his economy to look like. Destroying an item removes it from the economy, so it can't be traded down or sold or anything. Which puts pressure on crafters to keep making full items instead of just having mats for repairs, which in turn puts more pressure on mats, because you need the full amount of mats to craft rather than a fraction to repair (though both apply, so the pressure is twice as high).

    I do agree that there are probably better ways of achieving the same thing, and I even proposed one a long time ago, but Steven gonna Steven :)
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I like item destruction from an rp stand point. potential Item destruction shows the power of the intervention and the hit after success is wild.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
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