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The case for gear to provide more than 40-50% of a characters power.

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Comments

  • hleVhleV Member
    edited October 2023
    NiKr wrote: »
    hleV wrote: »
    It's somehow completely fine for a lower level player to get trashed by mobs that a higher level kills with ease, but got forbid that higher level player kills the lower level player with ease.
    Was this actually said anywhere? Did I miss it?

    I'd expect mobs to still require skill to kill and if you have enough of it - you can kill mobs higher than you in lvl.
    What exactly are you addressing here? I was mocking all those people having a problem with higher level/gear players trashing lower level/gear players in PvP, when nobody has ever had a problem with that in PvE.

    For a more extreme example, it's fine if a low level player gets oneshot by a high level mob, but god forbid a low level player gets oneshot by a high level player.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    hleV wrote: »
    What exactly are you addressing here? I was mocking all those people having a problem with higher level/gear players trashing lower level/gear players in PvP, when nobody has ever had a problem with that in PvE.

    For a more extreme example, it's fine if a low level player gets oneshot by a high level mob, but god forbid a low level player gets oneshot by a high level player.
    I was just making sure that I haven't missed a comment that made you say that, because I didn't see any indication that any of the people in this thread had this opinion.

    I find it silly to bring up an argument from some random people that have nothing to do with the current discussion. And if I did miss such a comment here - I asked to point it out.
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    You know what, I'm fine with having gear be that effective.

    Just have killing someone that weak in comparison to you cause even more corruption... 🙄

    Killing someone your level gives less corruption than killing someone 10 levels lower... do the same with overall gear score.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Shabooey wrote: »
    why would you go and contest it if you can't win.
    You wouldn't.

    If you are so far off the pace that you can just look at the situation and see that you have no chance of winning, that isn't a bad thing, that is the game telling you that you are a mile off the pace.

    Your argument here is no different to someone saying numbers shouldn't matter, because if you can see that I have so many more people present than you do, why would you even bother attacking?

    If someone is in a situation where they are outnumbered, my answer to them is to get more friends.

    If someone is in a situation where they are outgeared, my answer to them is to get better gear.

    If someone is in a situation where they are outleveled, my answer to them is to get more levels.

    These things are really basic. People need to stop complaining about them. You absolutely should need gear and levels and friends to be competitive.

    And these are all arguments I've used to explain why open world PvP isn't liked by many: the only people attacking do so because they believe/know they have overwhelmingly high chances of winning. Although your answers are valid, they all demand time to become effective, and are of little immediate help to someone outmatched. People will keep complaining. Come on man, you know they will... Or they'll walk away. After they've complained...
    hleV wrote: »
    It's somehow completely fine for a lower level player to get trashed by mobs that a higher level kills with ease, but got forbid that higher level player kills the lower level player with ease. When it comes to PvP, people don't want any RPG to it, yikes. (Speaking in general about level/abilities/gear here.)

    Well, you see, in most games, high level mobs are located together in areas designed for high level characters. These mobs aren't allowed to leave their designated zones to go hunt low level players in other areas of the world. High level players do not suffer these restrictions. So a low level player venturing into a zone populated by mobs they know they can't defeat or defend against does it at their own risk willingly. Put a random high level roaming mob in a lower level zone and people will absolutely bitch about it when it kills them. Same if it's a player they can't do anything about.

    Mixing characters with a great gap in power is a recipe for complaints, and sometime even mild disasters.

    Ah, R.P.G. How sad so many people reduce it to the character spreadsheet progression. Full munchkin mode. Blame my years of pen and paper roleplaying, but to me the RP has always been (and will always be) more about being part of the story, influencing it by the actions I take through my character than by dice rolls and arithmetic. In my book, very few MMORPGs were worthy of the RPG part. AoC seems promising so far.

    I've said it before, and I say it again: a MMOPersistentVirtualSurvivalWorld would be neat! No, not AoC, although it could be a step toward this "new" genre.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Thank you!
  • itsRyanBitsRyanB Member, Alpha Two
    Correct me if I am wrong but doesn’t this massive gear gap/power level negatively effect the games population over its lifespan. If an influx of players join after an ad campaign or expansion drop will these players not have any means to compete with any long term player. Doesn’t a mildly applied power gap help the new players at least feel more involved if they can do some damage.
    I understand the argument of people who have dedicated more time should in theory win. But just because someone is unemployed and can game 18 hours a day doesn’t mean they should win 90% of the time.
    Would alpha 2 not be the time where we will test these values and try to find a compromise between high skilled lower level players vs unemployed sweat lords?
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited October 2023
    If new players can easily reach older players that means that the mmo is a shallow, non challenging race to end game.

    I dont consider this a valid argument.
    Mmos need fresh servers every couple of years for new players. That's how mmos work.

    I also dont like this often occuring mentality: I am on the right and the other side is clearly wrong.
    Skilled low level vs sweaty unemployed? Is that the way to win the arguments? Come off your high horse, all of you that claim to have skill...
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    itsRyanB wrote: »
    Correct me if I am wrong but doesn’t this massive gear gap/power level negatively effect the games population over its lifespan. If an influx of players join after an ad campaign or expansion drop will these players not have any means to compete with any long term player. Doesn’t a mildly applied power gap help the new players at least feel more involved if they can do some damage.
    I understand the argument of people who have dedicated more time should in theory win. But just because someone is unemployed and can game 18 hours a day doesn’t mean they should win 90% of the time.
    Would alpha 2 not be the time where we will test these values and try to find a compromise between high skilled lower level players vs unemployed sweat lords?

    you know, you can solve that problem and still have a gear power gap . things arent black and white. if the problem is catching up, you implement solutions to allow newer players to catch up...

    also, keeping your current players costs less than acquiring new players.

    if you say its unfair that i beat you most of the time because i play 18hours a day...well i can say that is unfair you beat me most of the time because you were born 20 years after me...this is a tab targetted mmorpg, not an action combat mmorpg, a fighting game or an fps. at least my power comes from me spending time in game and doing things in the game, not external factors. also, there is a limit on how strong i can become. even if i play 18 hours a day and you only play 5, you will catch up eventually, then you can show me how skilled you are on even grounds. meanwhile, get rekt.

    your dodge for example, comes from your character stats, not real human player stats (again, targetted rpg, not action, not fighting game, not fps). if i go ham on my dodge stat, and you dont have the accuracy to hit me because you are new and dont have gear, and on top of that you arent even max level yet, and/or you havent increased your accuracy at all, you should miss most of your hits. its only fair. i put time and effort building that character plus lost other stats to increase dodge, why do you want to invalidate that? if we are the same level with the same gear tier, then sure most skilled player wins, assuming none of our classes has a big advantage over the other.

    also, game is balanced around party play, not 1v1. another reason why your 1v1 skills dont matter too much and shouldnt be the primary determiner of victory. im not saying gear should have tera or bdo levels of unfairness, but it should matter. dont invalidate the time and effort of another player because you havent put.

    at the end of the day, its up to IS to decide how much it matters.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    If Ashes has an endgame, it's an instant fail.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    If Ashes has an endgame, it's an instant fail.

    why?

    and are you saying you can become infinitely powerful?
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    If Ashes has an endgame, it's an instant fail.

    why?

    and are you saying you can become infinitely powerful?

    End game is widelly considered that all you did until lv cap doesnt matter.
    At lv cap the gear specializes and you are on raid/bg treadmill for gearscore.
    In an mmo where there is endgame the journey is quick and ez and the max lv content is in a small area of the map, usually instanced.

    Let's get back to topic.
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Raven016 wrote: »
    .
    Taerrik wrote: »
    Not only should gear be at least half of a players power, the stats themselves need to matter enough that if a player stacks one stat more than a different stat, it leads to different playstyles.

    An example would be, going for few big slow hits, or death by a thousand little fast cuts.

    Skill alone cannot be what carries a player, otherwise we will have no sense of progression as we get 'better' stuff.

    I agree that we need a sense of progression to get better gear.
    But we should also be aware that gear has durability loss which causes the performance of the gear to decrease each time the player dies.
    So there is a lot of oscillation up and down in this game.

    Aye, gears just one source of power.
  • itsRyanBitsRyanB Member, Alpha Two
    If new players can easily reach older players that means that the mmo is a shallow, non challenging race to end game.

    I dont consider this a valid argument.
    Mmos need fresh servers every couple of years for new players. That's how mmos work.

    I also dont like this often occuring mentality: I am on the right and the other side is clearly wrong.
    Skilled low level vs sweaty unemployed? Is that the way to win the arguments? Come off your high horse, all of you that claim to have skill...

    Wouldn't closer to equalized play show who is the better more skilled player? Not sure how I can be on my high horse when you are advocating for substantial gear differentials which is just rewarding one subset of players.
  • itsRyanBitsRyanB Member, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    itsRyanB wrote: »
    Correct me if I am wrong but doesn’t this massive gear gap/power level negatively effect the games population over its lifespan. If an influx of players join after an ad campaign or expansion drop will these players not have any means to compete with any long term player. Doesn’t a mildly applied power gap help the new players at least feel more involved if they can do some damage.
    I understand the argument of people who have dedicated more time should in theory win. But just because someone is unemployed and can game 18 hours a day doesn’t mean they should win 90% of the time.
    Would alpha 2 not be the time where we will test these values and try to find a compromise between high skilled lower level players vs unemployed sweat lords?

    you know, you can solve that problem and still have a gear power gap . things arent black and white. if the problem is catching up, you implement solutions to allow newer players to catch up...

    also, keeping your current players costs less than acquiring new players.

    if you say its unfair that i beat you most of the time because i play 18hours a day...well i can say that is unfair you beat me most of the time because you were born 20 years after me...this is a tab targetted mmorpg, not an action combat mmorpg, a fighting game or an fps. at least my power comes from me spending time in game and doing things in the game, not external factors. also, there is a limit on how strong i can become. even if i play 18 hours a day and you only play 5, you will catch up eventually, then you can show me how skilled you are on even grounds. meanwhile, get rekt.

    your dodge for example, comes from your character stats, not real human player stats (again, targetted rpg, not action, not fighting game, not fps). if i go ham on my dodge stat, and you dont have the accuracy to hit me because you are new and dont have gear, and on top of that you arent even max level yet, and/or you havent increased your accuracy at all, you should miss most of your hits. its only fair. i put time and effort building that character plus lost other stats to increase dodge, why do you want to invalidate that? if we are the same level with the same gear tier, then sure most skilled player wins, assuming none of our classes has a big advantage over the other.

    also, game is balanced around party play, not 1v1. another reason why your 1v1 skills dont matter too much and shouldnt be the primary determiner of victory. im not saying gear should have tera or bdo levels of unfairness, but it should matter. dont invalidate the time and effort of another player because you havent put.

    at the end of the day, its up to IS to decide how much it matters.

    Valid point thanks for not telling me to get off my high horse. Like I said I think gear should have an impact but based on OP orginal post title to be above 40 to 50% seems a little out of touch with reality.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    itsRyanB wrote: »
    If new players can easily reach older players that means that the mmo is a shallow, non challenging race to end game.

    I dont consider this a valid argument.
    Mmos need fresh servers every couple of years for new players. That's how mmos work.

    I also dont like this often occuring mentality: I am on the right and the other side is clearly wrong.
    Skilled low level vs sweaty unemployed? Is that the way to win the arguments? Come off your high horse, all of you that claim to have skill...

    Wouldn't closer to equalized play show who is the better more skilled player? Not sure how I can be on my high horse when you are advocating for substantial gear differentials which is just rewarding one subset of players.

    You wanna show your skill?
    Beat every player in your league until you reach the cap.
    Or do what I can do. Beat up higher level players with better gear.
    Beat the meta with random builds and 400 ping.
    Realise what the discussion is about and stop pretending that everyone else is worse than you.
    Also, it's an mmo. Not moba not tekken not fps not rts. Dont bring the argument of new players again.
  • RuerikRuerik Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Equalized play, purely to see who has more skill, belongs only in the realm of Arenas or instanced pvp.

    ptZBAr9.png
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    itsRyanB wrote: »
    If new players can easily reach older players that means that the mmo is a shallow, non challenging race to end game.

    I dont consider this a valid argument.
    Mmos need fresh servers every couple of years for new players. That's how mmos work.

    I also dont like this often occuring mentality: I am on the right and the other side is clearly wrong.
    Skilled low level vs sweaty unemployed? Is that the way to win the arguments? Come off your high horse, all of you that claim to have skill...

    Wouldn't closer to equalized play show who is the better more skilled player? Not sure how I can be on my high horse when you are advocating for substantial gear differentials which is just rewarding one subset of players.

    nope. you seem to think equalized arenas are equal, or balanced. stats still matter in equalized arenas, except the player has less control over them. the devs assign them, period.

    why are all top leaderboard players using the op classes and characters? think about that for a second. why most dont get to the top using the unplayable classes/builds/characters. not saying they are bad, but the character that you play has a much bigger role. so how is it fair you win because you play the fotm op

    how good do i have to be to beat you if im more skilled but you have better gear or an op class? 2 times better? 3 times better? 10 times better? what if the difference between the top 1 and top 2 player is just 5% but top 1 wins because op classes?xD

    look at mortal kombat 1 now. baraka -cyrax has a meterless 50%+ combo, that means i can only make 2 mistakes and im dead. if im playing something else that can only do 30% in a combo, you can make 3 mistakes per match and you are still alive, i make 2 and im dead. how are you more skilled than me because you are playing the op build?

    so if you are more skilled than me in a tab targetted mmorpg, and i fat finger 3 times and you fat finger twice, but ive been playing for much longer than you and i have top gear and you dont, should i deserve to lose because oyu havent made an effort to get the gear or because you are new?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    If Ashes has an endgame, it's an instant fail.

    Ashes will have an end game, because almost every game has an end game.

    The end game in most MMO's is raiding.

    In some, like Archeage, it is castle sieges and othernPvP events.

    In a game like Factorio, end game is the process of making and launching a rocket.

    In Baulders Gate 3, end game is act 3.

    In Path of Exile, end game is the map system.

    The only games I can think of that don't have an end game are match based games like online FPS games (some FPS games do indeed have an end game, such as Half-Life), BR's and MOBA's.

    Ashes will have an end game. It may not have an end game like Factorio where we are launching a rocket, or like Path of Exile with its maps, or like EQ2 with its raids, but it will have an end game.
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    If Ashes has an endgame, it's an instant fail.

    What do you consider endgame?
    My understanding of the phrase end game is just your gameplay loop after you reach level max.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    If Ashes has an endgame, it's an instant fail.

    What do you consider endgame?
    My understanding of the phrase end game is just your gameplay loop after you reach level max.

    I think he means once u are level 50 you have done everything so you have nothing new to do and can stop playing?
  • RuerikRuerik Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    nope. you seem to think equalized arenas are equal, or balanced. stats still matter in equalized arenas, except the player has less control over them. the devs assign them, period.

    Swtor had this figured out a long time ago actually when they boost peoples gear for pvp.

    There is a max stat budget,

    It looks at your stat distribution in your lowbie gear.
    It boosts you to the same stat distribution at max stat budget.

    Its actually easier to play builds you want in lowbie gear because you know what its stats will be when its boosted, folks actually would adjust their augments and gear mods depending on which spec they wanted to play because they knew how boosting worked.

    So, its not as if the devs MUST assign stats resulting in only 1 kind of build and everyone must run fotm and only 1 or 2 classes shine in pvp. They can just use the same gear/level boosting for arena/instance pvp that swtor figured out years ago.

    ptZBAr9.png
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Taerrik wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    nope. you seem to think equalized arenas are equal, or balanced. stats still matter in equalized arenas, except the player has less control over them. the devs assign them, period.

    Swtor had this figured out a long time ago actually when they boost peoples gear for pvp.

    There is a max stat budget,

    It looks at your stat distribution in your lowbie gear.
    It boosts you to the same stat distribution at max stat budget.

    Its actually easier to play builds you want in lowbie gear because you know what its stats will be when its boosted, folks actually would adjust their augments and gear mods depending on which spec they wanted to play because they knew how boosting worked.

    So, its not as if the devs MUST assign stats resulting in only 1 kind of build and everyone must run fotm and only 1 or 2 classes shine in pvp. They can just use the same gear/level boosting for arena/instance pvp that swtor figured out years ago.

    i didnt mean boosting, i meant equalized arenas like lost ark or blade and soul or gw.

    i hate boosting, it invalidates the effort of the players, and if done wrong it could end up like nw scaling lmao (but im sure they did that on purpose ugh)
  • RuerikRuerik Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2023
    I'm of the opinion boosting/equalized gear/whateverwewanttocallit only applies inside arenas or instanced pvp. In other words, in places it doesnt matter at all.

    Let people fight and determine who has more skill if they want... in arenas

    What matters is the open world, controlling resources and territory, places where there is no boosting and the effort you put in to grow your characters power matters.
    ptZBAr9.png
  • If new players can easily reach older players that means that the mmo is a shallow, non challenging race to end game.

    I dont consider this a valid argument.
    Mmos need fresh servers every couple of years for new players. That's how mmos work.

    You said the same in your other tread https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/56211/aoc-should-increase-the-time-it-takes-to-reach-lv-cap/p2
    As for the people saying "high level can play with the lower lv friends" it's just a case of "I want everything, now!".
    Mmos need fresh start servers for new players and yearly additions for older players.

    Not content that high and low repeat over and over and over.

    You want either longer time to reach level cap and then server reset or longer time to obtain high gear and then server reset.
    Vertical progression rather than horizontal progression.

    In games where developers want to be sure the gear level is ´the player's effort, they make the gear character bound. Or account bound.

    Do you really care about your node being sieges and destroyed? Or should I care?
    Apparently node sieges and caravan runs are the main end game.
    Steven uses the node system as the selling point of the game.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    The only games I can think of that don't have an end game are match based games like online FPS games (some FPS games do indeed have an end game, such as Half-Life), BR's and MOBA's.
    Those have it too. Your gameplay intensifies once you're closer to the end of the match. And in MOBAs it's even more pronounced, because your farming changes, there's more fights and bigger combat flows.

    So pretty much all games have end game. The only thing different is the time scale of them. I think the only game that truly could not have endgame is d&d, because you could keep a story going forever, and iirc there is in fact a storyline that's been going for decades now. I watched a video about it :)
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    The only games I can think of that don't have an end game are match based games like online FPS games (some FPS games do indeed have an end game, such as Half-Life), BR's and MOBA's.
    Those have it too. Your gameplay intensifies once you're closer to the end of the match. And in MOBAs it's even more pronounced, because your farming changes, there's more fights and bigger combat flows.

    So pretty much all games have end game. The only thing different is the time scale of them. I think the only game that truly could not have endgame is d&d, because you could keep a story going forever, and iirc there is in fact a storyline that's been going for decades now. I watched a video about it :)

    Also 2b2t, the Oldest Anarchy Server In MineCraft.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Taerrik wrote: »
    Equalized play, purely to see who has more skill, belongs only in the realm of Arenas or instanced pvp.
    I'm someone who would focus a lot on arena/instanced PvP, especially if it was rated, and I still want gear/stats to matter so that I could grind and keep progressing my character (the RPG part), not just improve my own skill (the non-RPG part).

    I want AoC to be an MMORPG regardless of the activity I choose to participate in.
  • AszkalonAszkalon Member, Alpha Two
    I swear i will get Gear that lets the Gear of the GODS look like garbage in Comparison !!!


    I will defeat You all on Level One when YOU have Max-Level !! (lol)

    This is how good my Gear will be. It will make my best Parts Twenty Centimeters longer ONLY to show and prove to You, that you shouldn't even THINK about out-gearing me !!!!!!!




    ( This Comment can contain Silliness and is meant for Comedy. If you fell for it, you deserve the most silly Gear in the whole Game ! )
    a50whcz343yn.png
    ✓ Occasional Roleplayer
    ✓ Guild is " Balderag's Garde " for now. (German)
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    The only games I can think of that don't have an end game are match based games like online FPS games (some FPS games do indeed have an end game, such as Half-Life), BR's and MOBA's.
    Those have it too. Your gameplay intensifies once you're closer to the end of the match. And in MOBAs it's even more pronounced, because your farming changes, there's more fights and bigger combat flows.

    So pretty much all games have end game. The only thing different is the time scale of them. I think the only game that truly could not have endgame is d&d, because you could keep a story going forever, and iirc there is in fact a storyline that's been going for decades now. I watched a video about it :)
    Endgame is the point in an MMORPG where a player runs out of new content and has to wait years for the devs to add new content - max (Adventurer) level where the only thing left to do is repeat the same dungeons and raids over and over and over and over and over again... until the next expansion.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2023
    Dygz wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    The only games I can think of that don't have an end game are match based games like online FPS games (some FPS games do indeed have an end game, such as Half-Life), BR's and MOBA's.
    Those have it too. Your gameplay intensifies once you're closer to the end of the match. And in MOBAs it's even more pronounced, because your farming changes, there's more fights and bigger combat flows.

    So pretty much all games have end game. The only thing different is the time scale of them. I think the only game that truly could not have endgame is d&d, because you could keep a story going forever, and iirc there is in fact a storyline that's been going for decades now. I watched a video about it :)
    Endgame is the point in an MMORPG where a player runs out of new content and has to wait years for the devs to add new content - max (Adventurer) level where the only thing left to do is repeat the same dungeons and raids over and over and over and over and over again... until the next expansion.

    This statement makes no sense since that is every game....You get max level and repeat the content around that for all games.... You will eventually get max level in AoC, and be doing the max level dungeons / raids / pvp. And eagerly waiting patches and new content drops. That doesn't mean the end loop is not enjoyable or does not have a long life cycle.


    The actual question would be what games are you comparing this "No end game". Minecrft can be used as an example since you just gather and build cool things, etc. The better gear you get than you can travel to stronger mobs and the netherrealm or w.e its called. But in the end the game is just about building cool things exploring. Since there is not real objective.


    *edit I know you have gone on record quoting Steven saying they have no end game. But are both your definitions of end game even the same?

    Even with new content being revealed to you, if you are grinding the game you are going to be doing a lot of the content on repeat regardless. Expectations need to be realistic, how how long those kinds of events in the game will last and how often they change. Having wild expectations will only end up letting you down.
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