No quest related waypoints.

I think the number one worst thing about modern MMOs is they show you exactly where to go. No-one is confused about where to go, so naturally people don't group up, there is 0 incentive to read the quests because it's unnecessary for completing the quest and you could spend that time you would be reading getting ahead of everyone else in levels and content.
(If anyone doesn't like that mindset, I hate to tell you that the best guilds pay attention to who levels the fastest and who gets attuned the quickest, ect. Whether or not you get in raids week one or week three depends on how fast you do content.)

I have no idea whether ashes plans to have waypoints for quests or shown quest areas, but I'm pleading that they DO NOT.
Let us not feel disadvantaged for reading the quests, and let people be a little confused as to where to go sometimes. That extends the shelf life of, in my opinion, the best part of the mmorpg experience; Leveling.

TLDR:

No waypoints=
+Reading quests
+More Groups
+Longer Leveling

Waypoints=
+Mindless quest training like New World
+People only group once they realize they can't do something solo
+Faster leveling=Faster Endgame Meta

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Ludullu

GrappLr wrote: »

I don't think we agree when you say "I love reading quests and immersing myself in the game's world, but those wow addons were made for a reason. And the reason is - the masses don't want to immerse themselves, they just want to "win"."

I disagree with the masses. I just know that they and their actions are inevitable. Ashes will be niche, but I'd prefer if that niche is big enough for the game to survive for 10+ years w/o changing its entire core concept (as pretty much every other mmo in history did).

You can go look through the videos I linked in another post. I played classic w/o addons, even though my friends were constantly telling me to use them. I like Ashes because it won't have any of that shit, but I also know for sure that people will come up with ways of going around limitations and rules, because that's just how people are.

Ludullu

Vissox wrote: »

you remembered what Valheim even is, so it was obviously a memorable experience.

It's not that old of a game to completely forget about it even if you didn't really like it.

Azherae

Quest writers can be trained to write quests in ways that will prevent a larger number of players from going to the guide.

As of Alpha-1, Intrepid's quest writer(s) were top notch in my opinion, and I have minor reasons to believe that will continue.

MMO devs seem to be learning more and more that quick cash-grab experiences are not the best thing for them to be trying to deliver (relative to the demographics and other genres). But at the same time, it's hard, it seems to require years of training in how to write quests and story beats, for those staff members to consistently create good enough stuff that doesn't frustrate players, and then the reaction of the engineers to 'frustrated players' is to add the markers.

This is entirely my speculative opinion from observation of things I don't have internal data on, though (and a few devs that outright tell us their reasonings for making changes of that type).

Basically to me this is a tradeoff, between having a lot of quests written by 'any staff member with an idea for how to flesh out the world', and 'a few quests written by specialists who know all the writing techniques'. Ashes could probably afford to take the second approach, I think.

Raven016

Vissox wrote: »

Raven016 wrote: »

@Vissox I think you would enjoy the heavy fog in Valheim
Disable the map too and see if you can find the 2nd boss.

I can tell this is some kind of sarcasm, but your defeating your own point, because you remembered what Valheim even is, so it was obviously a memorable experience.

EDIT: LOL

Raven016 wrote: »

I never played that game but I know it is old. And you remembering the quest name says something

How can you come to the same conclusion and miss the point entirely. That is some sweet irony.

So you played Valheim but you do not seem to know that you can disable the map in the settings.
Was a suggestion and also a hope that you will confirm you did that already.

Having the map disabled you also cannot ping on the mini-map to see the direction you have to navigate.

GrappLr

NiKr wrote: »

GrappLr wrote: »

I don't think we agree when you say "I love reading quests and immersing myself in the game's world, but those wow addons were made for a reason. And the reason is - the masses don't want to immerse themselves, they just want to "win"."

I disagree with the masses. I just know that they and their actions are inevitable. Ashes will be niche, but I'd prefer if that niche is big enough for the game to survive for 10+ years w/o changing its entire core concept (as pretty much every other mmo in history did).

You can go look through the videos I linked in another post. I played classic w/o addons, even though my friends were constantly telling me to use them. I like Ashes because it won't have any of that shit, but I also know for sure that people will come up with ways of going around limitations and rules, because that's just how people are.

I literally use addons in WoW Classic. I use them because they make the game easier and more efficient. Would I have more fun with less addons? Probably. Why do I use them? Because they're available and other people use them, and if I don't, I'm at a disadvantage.

Imagine if WoW launched with a button next to your character that said "Instant level 60". What % of people would not click it? Most would. This objectively makes the game worse, but guess what, people click it because it exists.

Ludullu

GrappLr wrote: »

I literally use addons in WoW Classic. I use them because they make the game easier and more efficient. Would I have more fun with less addons? Probably. Why do I use them? Because they're available and other people use them, and if I don't, I'm at a disadvantage.

Ahh, so you're part of the problem

Azherae

As Dygz often points out, this is moreso a symptom of 'endgame' being a thing people have a reason to care about more than other stuff.

Some games, it's a big deal, some games, it's a small component that a small subset of players inflates into a big deal.

A dynamic game with Nodes as a basis changes the situation so that there's a subset of players whose role is to provide the playerbase at large with updates to the unpredictable dynamic part. That's also still a form of community.

Basically as long as someone has to go in and manually update the add-on data because the game can be random enough to require that, it's fine. Quests can be the same way if Intrepid wants.

Ruerik

I think there should be both, and changes in punishments or rewards after completing the quest even.

In A1, there was a cool quest in a cave, where you have to go and pick some flowers. A very specific number of flowers, if you just kept spamming expecting the quest to update and send you back, you would die, because of the poison, which was hilarious.

Then when you got back to the NPC, if you asked too many questions about what the heck a healer needs poisonous flowers for, and didn't accept the answer 'to help people....sleep', the NPC revealed criminal nature, and killed you to keep you from talking.

That, imo is immersive. There was still map markers on where to go, but you had to pay the heck attention or you lost half your stuff.

Vissox

NiKr wrote: »

I disagree with the masses. I just know that they and their actions are inevitable. Ashes will be niche, but I'd prefer if that niche is big enough for the game to survive for 10+ years w/o changing its entire core concept (as pretty much every other mmo in history did).

You can go look through the videos I linked in another post. I played classic w/o addons, even though my friends were constantly telling me to use them. I like Ashes because it won't have any of that shit, but I also know for sure that people will come up with ways of going around limitations and rules, because that's just how people are.

You are missing the point entirely.
No-one here is denying that addons and websites and guides will be a thing, the point is that the developers of MMORPGs should not make a worse game to subvert that.
If people want to go look up guides and sites and addons, that's fine, having a braindead navigation system in the game because (?) I don't know why, because they want people to not go to those resources? Like you said, that shit gets made no matter what.

So when waypoints are not in the game people have to go get invested in websites and addons for the game.

When it is in the game people just speed through the leveling experience.

Are you really suggesting that intrepid should pick the latter, just go doomer mode and say "fuck it, we don't care about a paced leveling experience and players can just follow a dot on their screen all the way to the end game."

Your entire argument just sounds like you know that addons are happening anyway so they should give up,
so trying should be harmless in either case.

Ludullu

Vissox wrote: »

Are you really suggesting that intrepid should pick the latter, just go doomer mode and say "fuck it, we don't care about a paced leveling experience and players can just follow a dot on their screen all the way to the end game."

Like I already said, I simply think there's a middle ground. Those who rush through the game, will do it either way. Those who don't rush - same.

I'm just saying that npcs can give a rough location that will show up on your map, with maybe giving a few more details in text, for those who'll read it. But having pure text-based questing will just exacerbate the addon/site issues.

As Gaben said about piracy - it's about the quality of service. If you make something hard enough, people will just look for an easier way of doing it, instead of simply going the hard way. So you gotta meet people half-way and be better off because of that.

Azherae

Vissox wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

I disagree with the masses. I just know that they and their actions are inevitable. Ashes will be niche, but I'd prefer if that niche is big enough for the game to survive for 10+ years w/o changing its entire core concept (as pretty much every other mmo in history did).

You can go look through the videos I linked in another post. I played classic w/o addons, even though my friends were constantly telling me to use them. I like Ashes because it won't have any of that shit, but I also know for sure that people will come up with ways of going around limitations and rules, because that's just how people are.

You are missing the point entirely.
No-one here is denying that addons and websites and guides will be a thing, the point is that the developers of MMORPGs should not make a worse game to subvert that.
If people want to go look up guides and sites and addons, that's fine, having a braindead navigation system in the game because (?) I don't know why, because they want people to not go to those resources? Like you said, that shit gets made no matter what.

So when waypoints are not in the game people have to go get invested in websites and addons for the game.

When it is in the game people just speed through the leveling experience.

Are you really suggesting that intrepid should pick the latter, just go doomer mode and say "fuck it, we don't care about a paced leveling experience and players can just follow a dot on their screen all the way to the end game."

Your entire argument just sounds like you know that addons are happening anyway so they should give up,
so trying should be harmless in either case.

Removing quest related waypoints specifically, isn't the optimal handling method for this.

The waypoints are a symptom of something else in design that leads to their creation. It barely matters if they are there or not. So if having them will appease some people long enough for the chance that they learn to appreciate the other underlying parts, having them is better.

Games are not ruined by waypoints, nor quest markers. They are ruined by quests where the point of the quest is 'find this location on a map and then receive a reward for being able to navigate to a location'.

Depraved

Vissox wrote: »

I think the number one worst thing about modern MMOs is they show you exactly where to go. No-one is confused about where to go, so naturally people don't group up, there is 0 incentive to read the quests because it's unnecessary for completing the quest and you could spend that time you would be reading getting ahead of everyone else in levels and content.
(If anyone doesn't like that mindset, I hate to tell you that the best guilds pay attention to who levels the fastest and who gets attuned the quickest, ect. Whether or not you get in raids week one or week three depends on how fast you do content.)

I have no idea whether ashes plans to have waypoints for quests or shown quest areas, but I'm pleading that they DO NOT.
Let us not feel disadvantaged for reading the quests, and let people be a little confused as to where to go sometimes. That extends the shelf life of, in my opinion, the best part of the mmorpg experience; Leveling.

TLDR:

No waypoints=
+Reading quests
+More Groups
+Longer Leveling

Waypoints=
+Mindless quest training like New World
+People only group once they realize they can't do something solo
+Faster leveling=Faster Endgame Meta

since i hate questing, i like the game showing me on the map where to go and what to do (except for nw markers, they are always off lol). if you want to read the quests, you can still read the quests. and there are quests that you have to read even if you get a marker on the map...

edit: you can still add quest markers and make it so that people need to group. one thing doesn't exclude the other /facepalm

Vissox

Depraved wrote: »

since i hate questing, i like the game showing me on the map where to go and what to do (except for nw markers, they are always off lol). if you want to read the quests, you can still read the quests. and there are quests that you have to read even if you get a marker on the map...

edit: you can still add quest markers and make it so that people need to group. one thing doesn't exclude the other /facepalm

If you hate questing why are you even playing MMORPGs. You said the exact same thing on another post.
Your thought process here is so removed from the nuance of the discussion I don't even want to explain it to you.

Depraved

Vissox wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

since i hate questing, i like the game showing me on the map where to go and what to do (except for nw markers, they are always off lol). if you want to read the quests, you can still read the quests. and there are quests that you have to read even if you get a marker on the map...

edit: you can still add quest markers and make it so that people need to group. one thing doesn't exclude the other /facepalm

If you hate questing why are you even playing MMORPGs. You said the exact same thing on another post.
Your thought process here is so removed from the nuance of the discussion I don't even want to explain it to you.

for everything else that i can do, other than running around talking to npc.

why do I play mmorpg? i like partying up and doing dungeons
castle sieges
pvp events
open world pvp
killing mobs.
building my character, thats the best part for me.

i rather spend 10 hours killing mobs than 10 hours running around questing.

im not gonna say hey remove quests because the game isnt about me, its about what people like. people liek questing and markers.

i could ask you the same thing. if you like questing so much, why are you playing mmorpg? just play the witcher or something.

Vissox

Depraved wrote: »

for everything else that i can do, other than running around talking to npc.

why do I play mmorpg? i like partying up and doing dungeons
castle sieges
pvp events
open world pvp
killing mobs.
building my character, thats the best part for me.

i rather spend 10 hours killing mobs than 10 hours running around questing.

im not gonna say hey remove quests because the game isnt about me, its about what people like. people liek questing and markers.

i could ask you the same thing. if you like questing so much, why are you playing mmorpg? just play the witcher or something.

Let me rephrase. Since you hate questing, why should anyone value your input on how quests are done?
Since you established your just gonna not like questing anyways, I think it's probably a safe bet for intrepid to focus on players who actually like the "RPG" Elements in an MMORPG.

Azherae

Vissox wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

for everything else that i can do, other than running around talking to npc.

why do I play mmorpg? i like partying up and doing dungeons
castle sieges
pvp events
open world pvp
killing mobs.
building my character, thats the best part for me.

i rather spend 10 hours killing mobs than 10 hours running around questing.

im not gonna say hey remove quests because the game isnt about me, its about what people like. people liek questing and markers.

i could ask you the same thing. if you like questing so much, why are you playing mmorpg? just play the witcher or something.

Let me rephrase. Since you hate questing, why should anyone value your input on how quests are done?
Since you established your just gonna not like questing anyways, I think it's probably a safe bet for intrepid to focus on players who actually like the "RPG" Elements in an MMORPG.

A little rough, but sure.

I love questing. I love to write quests. I find quest design and studying quests and the way they immerse or fail to immerse players to be one of the best parts of MMOs (from the perspective of appreciating their design).

I think Depraved is still right. Even for this 'niche' game. Even for this 'return to oldschool'.

Different people have different ideals of what is important or necessary just the same way they have different actual preferences for their personal enjoyment. From the 'MMORPG' perspective, some of the best Quests are those that the player defines themselves by choosing not to do.

This game needs the Sullen Guild Master, the Overbearing Warlord, the Blood-soaked Soldier, and the Heartless Mercenary just as much as it needs the Hero Sojourner.

Hating quests is supposed to be another entirely valid way of interacting with quests.

tautau

I think it would be nice if the devs made the quests change a bit from time to time. Not drastically, but maybe every month the 'lost bouquet' you have to find would be dropped at a different spot so that all the online guides would become outdated inaccurate.

Players doing the quest them themselves would never notice and would be just fine. Those trying to 'cheat' would go to the wrong place and get frustrated.

The same concept could apply to other game assets, such as bosses. Change their defenses, skills, actions every month or so. We would then have to Pay Attention and those who blindly followed the online 'guides' would be rewarded with party wipes rather than with gear.

In time, players might start to give up on those inaccurate online guides and YouTubes and learn to think.

Azherae

tautau wrote: »

I think it would be nice if the devs made the quests change a bit from time to time. Not drastically, but maybe every month the 'lost bouquet' you have to find would be dropped at a different spot so that all the online guides would become outdated inaccurate.

Players doing the quest them themselves would never notice and would be just fine. Those trying to 'cheat' would go to the wrong place and get frustrated.

The same concept could apply to other game assets, such as bosses. Change their defenses, skills, actions every month or so. We would then have to Pay Attention and those who blindly followed the online 'guides' would be rewarded with party wipes rather than with gear.

In time, players might start to give up on those inaccurate online guides and YouTubes and learn to think.

I wish, but they'd just do what they do now and wait for their favorite Content Creator to go through everything again, remake and update all the guides, and then rewatch those, giving said Content Creator even more views, presence, and support, encouraging them to make 'updating guides' their full time job, beginning an arms race of datamining...

Mm, humanity.

Dygz

Azherae wrote: »

As Dygz often points out, this is moreso a symptom of 'endgame' being a thing people have a reason to care about more than other stuff.

Some games, it's a big deal, some games, it's a small component that a small subset of players inflates into a big deal.

A dynamic game with Nodes as a basis changes the situation so that there's a subset of players whose role is to provide the playerbase at large with updates to the unpredictable dynamic part. That's also still a form of community.

Basically as long as someone has to go in and manually update the add-on data because the game can be random enough to require that, it's fine. Quests can be the same way if Intrepid wants.

This is exactly what I was thinking while reading through the previous posts.

Depraved

Vissox wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

for everything else that i can do, other than running around talking to npc.

why do I play mmorpg? i like partying up and doing dungeons
castle sieges
pvp events
open world pvp
killing mobs.
building my character, thats the best part for me.

i rather spend 10 hours killing mobs than 10 hours running around questing.

im not gonna say hey remove quests because the game isnt about me, its about what people like. people liek questing and markers.

i could ask you the same thing. if you like questing so much, why are you playing mmorpg? just play the witcher or something.

Let me rephrase. Since you hate questing, why should anyone value your input on how quests are done?
Since you established your just gonna not like questing anyways, I think it's probably a safe bet for intrepid to focus on players who actually like the "RPG" Elements in an MMORPG.

because I have to do the quests that are important anyways. might have to do quests to fight a boss. gonna have to quest to level from 1 to 50, etc.

i'd argue that my input is more important than yours in this particular case. designers are looking for users' pain points to address them. walking around for an hour because the quest text isn't clear, or because you have to kill a specific mob that is always dead because other players killed it and you can't find it even if you are at the right spot, then you start scratching your head and think you aren't at the right spot, etc. those (and more of course) are pain points that the designers want to address. they want people like me who hate questing to like the quests.

also, it depends on what you want to do with your game. not every moment of the game has to be a puzzle that you have to solve to move on to the next puzzle. this isn't a puzzle game, it's an mmorpg.

there is a reason why we went from not having markers to having markers. think about that for a second.

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