I disagree with the masses. I just know that they and their actions are inevitable. Ashes will be niche, but I'd prefer if that niche is big enough for the game to survive for 10+ years w/o changing its entire core concept (as pretty much every other mmo in history did).
You can go look through the videos I linked in another post. I played classic w/o addons, even though my friends were constantly telling me to use them. I like Ashes because it won't have any of that shit, but I also know for sure that people will come up with ways of going around limitations and rules, because that's just how people are.
You are missing the point entirely.
No-one here is denying that addons and websites and guides will be a thing, the point is that the developers of MMORPGs should not make a worse game to subvert that.
If people want to go look up guides and sites and addons, that's fine, having a braindead navigation system in the game because (?) I don't know why, because they want people to not go to those resources? Like you said, that shit gets made no matter what.
So when waypoints are not in the game people have to go get invested in websites and addons for the game.
When it is in the game people just speed through the leveling experience.
Are you really suggesting that intrepid should pick the latter, just go doomer mode and say "fuck it, we don't care about a paced leveling experience and players can just follow a dot on their screen all the way to the end game."
Your entire argument just sounds like you know that addons are happening anyway so they should give up,
so trying should be harmless in either case.
Removing quest related waypoints specifically, isn't the optimal handling method for this.
The waypoints are a symptom of something else in design that leads to their creation. It barely matters if they are there or not. So if having them will appease some people long enough for the chance that they learn to appreciate the other underlying parts, having them is better.
Games are not ruined by waypoints, nor quest markers. They are ruined by quests where the point of the quest is 'find this location on a map and then receive a reward for being able to navigate to a location'.
I think the number one worst thing about modern MMOs is they show you exactly where to go. No-one is confused about where to go, so naturally people don't group up, there is 0 incentive to read the quests because it's unnecessary for completing the quest and you could spend that time you would be reading getting ahead of everyone else in levels and content.
(If anyone doesn't like that mindset, I hate to tell you that the best guilds pay attention to who levels the fastest and who gets attuned the quickest, ect. Whether or not you get in raids week one or week three depends on how fast you do content.)
I have no idea whether ashes plans to have waypoints for quests or shown quest areas, but I'm pleading that they DO NOT.
Let us not feel disadvantaged for reading the quests, and let people be a little confused as to where to go sometimes. That extends the shelf life of, in my opinion, the best part of the mmorpg experience; Leveling.
TLDR:
No waypoints=
+Reading quests
+More Groups
+Longer Leveling
Waypoints=
+Mindless quest training like New World
+People only group once they realize they can't do something solo
+Faster leveling=Faster Endgame Meta
since i hate questing, i like the game showing me on the map where to go and what to do (except for nw markers, they are always off lol). if you want to read the quests, you can still read the quests. and there are quests that you have to read even if you get a marker on the map...
edit: you can still add quest markers and make it so that people need to group. one thing doesn't exclude the other /facepalm
since i hate questing, i like the game showing me on the map where to go and what to do (except for nw markers, they are always off lol). if you want to read the quests, you can still read the quests. and there are quests that you have to read even if you get a marker on the map...
edit: you can still add quest markers and make it so that people need to group. one thing doesn't exclude the other /facepalm
If you hate questing why are you even playing MMORPGs. You said the exact same thing on another post.
Your thought process here is so removed from the nuance of the discussion I don't even want to explain it to you.
since i hate questing, i like the game showing me on the map where to go and what to do (except for nw markers, they are always off lol). if you want to read the quests, you can still read the quests. and there are quests that you have to read even if you get a marker on the map...
edit: you can still add quest markers and make it so that people need to group. one thing doesn't exclude the other /facepalm
If you hate questing why are you even playing MMORPGs. You said the exact same thing on another post.
Your thought process here is so removed from the nuance of the discussion I don't even want to explain it to you.
for everything else that i can do, other than running around talking to npc.
why do I play mmorpg? i like partying up and doing dungeons
castle sieges
pvp events
open world pvp
killing mobs.
building my character, thats the best part for me.
i rather spend 10 hours killing mobs than 10 hours running around questing.
im not gonna say hey remove quests because the game isnt about me, its about what people like. people liek questing and markers.
i could ask you the same thing. if you like questing so much, why are you playing mmorpg? just play the witcher or something.
for everything else that i can do, other than running around talking to npc.
why do I play mmorpg? i like partying up and doing dungeons
castle sieges
pvp events
open world pvp
killing mobs.
building my character, thats the best part for me.
i rather spend 10 hours killing mobs than 10 hours running around questing.
im not gonna say hey remove quests because the game isnt about me, its about what people like. people liek questing and markers.
i could ask you the same thing. if you like questing so much, why are you playing mmorpg? just play the witcher or something.
Let me rephrase. Since you hate questing, why should anyone value your input on how quests are done?
Since you established your just gonna not like questing anyways, I think it's probably a safe bet for intrepid to focus on players who actually like the "RPG" Elements in an MMORPG.
for everything else that i can do, other than running around talking to npc.
why do I play mmorpg? i like partying up and doing dungeons
castle sieges
pvp events
open world pvp
killing mobs.
building my character, thats the best part for me.
i rather spend 10 hours killing mobs than 10 hours running around questing.
im not gonna say hey remove quests because the game isnt about me, its about what people like. people liek questing and markers.
i could ask you the same thing. if you like questing so much, why are you playing mmorpg? just play the witcher or something.
Let me rephrase. Since you hate questing, why should anyone value your input on how quests are done?
Since you established your just gonna not like questing anyways, I think it's probably a safe bet for intrepid to focus on players who actually like the "RPG" Elements in an MMORPG.
A little rough, but sure.
I love questing. I love to write quests. I find quest design and studying quests and the way they immerse or fail to immerse players to be one of the best parts of MMOs (from the perspective of appreciating their design).
I think Depraved is still right. Even for this 'niche' game. Even for this 'return to oldschool'.
Different people have different ideals of what is important or necessary just the same way they have different actual preferences for their personal enjoyment. From the 'MMORPG' perspective, some of the best Quests are those that the player defines themselves by choosing not to do.
This game needs the Sullen Guild Master, the Overbearing Warlord, the Blood-soaked Soldier, and the Heartless Mercenary just as much as it needs the Hero Sojourner.
Hating quests is supposed to be another entirely valid way of interacting with quests.
I think it would be nice if the devs made the quests change a bit from time to time. Not drastically, but maybe every month the 'lost bouquet' you have to find would be dropped at a different spot so that all the online guides would become outdated inaccurate.
Players doing the quest them themselves would never notice and would be just fine. Those trying to 'cheat' would go to the wrong place and get frustrated.
The same concept could apply to other game assets, such as bosses. Change their defenses, skills, actions every month or so. We would then have to Pay Attention and those who blindly followed the online 'guides' would be rewarded with party wipes rather than with gear.
In time, players might start to give up on those inaccurate online guides and YouTubes and learn to think.
I think it would be nice if the devs made the quests change a bit from time to time. Not drastically, but maybe every month the 'lost bouquet' you have to find would be dropped at a different spot so that all the online guides would become outdated inaccurate.
Players doing the quest them themselves would never notice and would be just fine. Those trying to 'cheat' would go to the wrong place and get frustrated.
The same concept could apply to other game assets, such as bosses. Change their defenses, skills, actions every month or so. We would then have to Pay Attention and those who blindly followed the online 'guides' would be rewarded with party wipes rather than with gear.
In time, players might start to give up on those inaccurate online guides and YouTubes and learn to think.
I wish, but they'd just do what they do now and wait for their favorite Content Creator to go through everything again, remake and update all the guides, and then rewatch those, giving said Content Creator even more views, presence, and support, encouraging them to make 'updating guides' their full time job, beginning an arms race of datamining...
Mm, humanity.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
As Dygz often points out, this is moreso a symptom of 'endgame' being a thing people have a reason to care about more than other stuff.
Some games, it's a big deal, some games, it's a small component that a small subset of players inflates into a big deal.
A dynamic game with Nodes as a basis changes the situation so that there's a subset of players whose role is to provide the playerbase at large with updates to the unpredictable dynamic part. That's also still a form of community.
Basically as long as someone has to go in and manually update the add-on data because the game can be random enough to require that, it's fine. Quests can be the same way if Intrepid wants.
This is exactly what I was thinking while reading through the previous posts.
for everything else that i can do, other than running around talking to npc.
why do I play mmorpg? i like partying up and doing dungeons
castle sieges
pvp events
open world pvp
killing mobs.
building my character, thats the best part for me.
i rather spend 10 hours killing mobs than 10 hours running around questing.
im not gonna say hey remove quests because the game isnt about me, its about what people like. people liek questing and markers.
i could ask you the same thing. if you like questing so much, why are you playing mmorpg? just play the witcher or something.
Let me rephrase. Since you hate questing, why should anyone value your input on how quests are done?
Since you established your just gonna not like questing anyways, I think it's probably a safe bet for intrepid to focus on players who actually like the "RPG" Elements in an MMORPG.
because I have to do the quests that are important anyways. might have to do quests to fight a boss. gonna have to quest to level from 1 to 50, etc.
i'd argue that my input is more important than yours in this particular case. designers are looking for users' pain points to address them. walking around for an hour because the quest text isn't clear, or because you have to kill a specific mob that is always dead because other players killed it and you can't find it even if you are at the right spot, then you start scratching your head and think you aren't at the right spot, etc. those (and more of course) are pain points that the designers want to address. they want people like me who hate questing to like the quests.
also, it depends on what you want to do with your game. not every moment of the game has to be a puzzle that you have to solve to move on to the next puzzle. this isn't a puzzle game, it's an mmorpg.
there is a reason why we went from not having markers to having markers. think about that for a second.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The challenge of the game should not be trying to figure out where to go.
Same reason why MMORPGs have mini-maps and/or a compass - in addition to a larger map which indicates player location.
Lots of people have exceedingly poor navigation and spatial awareness in a 2D setting with limited senses.
Another one of these post "Let people be confused where to go" people out here trying to be like what if we made this mmorpg bad so it would be better. Confusion without a purpose is not making the game more interesting and just adding more tedious elements to more aspects of the game.
Fun part about questing is the journey there, the story, interaction and how it affects things.
Trying to make the journey bad, in turn makes questing bad. There should be plenty of hidden elements and reasons to explore which make question and exploration a lot more fun.
If you personally want things to be extra difficulty you would refuse to use map and other elements. But as you or one pointed out you use add-on if they are available. Point to the fact that it is not a element you care about enough to enjoy.
Could anyone play a single player game maybe like elden ring and play it as easy and get hacks, sure. But that ruins the game and they deal and overcome the difficulty for most players. Because hat is a fun element of the game they care about, which makes it look worse on you for this kind of suggestion while using add ons in WoW.
I can support waypoints for things like *exploration* quests; Such quests wherein you NEED to be within so-many-meters of a specific location. However, it would be preferable to avoid them for most other types of quests.
Additional challenges such as having an elite enemy or mob at the location of a waypoint are typically enough to augment exploration-type quests.
Give the questing an opportunity to have socializing occur, where players ask other players for help if they’re stuck.
Except they won't, which is my point
I disagree.
If I'm stuck, I'll look for help from players.
The thing is, rather than just yelling out hoping someone will answer, or walking uo to random people and asking, or asking friends hoping they aren't busy, I'll simply go straight to where I know players willing and wanting to help will have that information for me.
The thing is, rather than just yelling out hoping someone will answer, or walking uo to random people and asking, or asking friends hoping they aren't busy, I'll simply go straight to where I know players willing and wanting to help will have that information for me.
The thing is, rather than just yelling out hoping someone will answer, or walking uo to random people and asking, or asking friends hoping they aren't busy, I'll simply go straight to where I know players willing and wanting to help will have that information for me.
I am bad at reading intent in text, but I think you're joking, right?
They got a subtle way of joking at times but I don't think this is the case. It's evident many players from mmorpg's especially mainstream ones rarely do go to other players for questions especially with the accessibility of add-ons and websites for information. Game design plays a big role in that as well. A lot of these MMORPG's are more like Massive Single-player Online (MSO) due to encouraging players to interact less via theme park design. If you look at amusement park designs, consumers don't usually mingle much, they just follow the map to what attracts them and wait in lines. Add technology in the mix, well you get the idea.
The internet makes it so people can exclude themselves from mingling more. I remember in early Dark Age of Camelot days, there was no quick minimise and open up 20 web browsers to find everything within a few seconds as there is today. The frontier map for RvR was mysterious and fun to explore. Players set up outposts and communicated, great times to be a gamer who enjoyed immersion to be honest. World of Warcraft let that die with add-ons and theme parking implementation. Many MMORPG's followed suit as every AAA studio was trying to get in on the cash cow. The target audience and demographic diminished and the monthly active subscriptions proved it.
for everything else that i can do, other than running around talking to npc.
why do I play mmorpg? i like partying up and doing dungeons
castle sieges
pvp events
open world pvp
killing mobs.
building my character, thats the best part for me.
i rather spend 10 hours killing mobs than 10 hours running around questing.
im not gonna say hey remove quests because the game isnt about me, its about what people like. people liek questing and markers.
i could ask you the same thing. if you like questing so much, why are you playing mmorpg? just play the witcher or something.
Let me rephrase. Since you hate questing, why should anyone value your input on how quests are done?
Since you established your just gonna not like questing anyways, I think it's probably a safe bet for intrepid to focus on players who actually like the "RPG" Elements in an MMORPG.
Because somebody who hates them is more critical. The others are more tolerant.
A quest system which even Depraved would appreciate would be superior to quests you previously seen in other mmorpgs.
As mentioned before, people who provide you with specific tasks often times are also able to point out where that task should be fulfilled. Which brings us to the point that might be more significant in that - many quests in other games are so pointless that the quest giver could have - theoretically - done it themselves, while the other quests often don't go far enough IMO. Proposal 1: Deeper quests
"Speak to the mayor." - No, farmer no. 294762, go speak to him yourself.
"Kill 20 bandtis in the castle ruin" or "Kill 10 wolves." - That's not a quest, that's a task that's a fix to an issue that 'should' run deeper. There might be a reason why this pack of wolves has come out of the forest and stepped onto that farmers field.
In my opinion good quest design would be to not end the quest there but to automatically extend the quest to explore the cause of the migration - which would mean exploring an area with no further specification. There you could find for example tracks of the pack or big feathers and the carcasses of a wolf pack leader and ultimately a cave in which a gryphon has settled down to nest. Then you give player the option: Either kill the gryphon for its skin, feathers and egg (gryphon husbandry incoming!) or steal the eggs, build a new nest atop the castle ruin with the bandits and let the gryphon not only take care of the bandits but also secure it from being infested with bandits again, which grants access to their loot and also a gryphon egg (because why not).
With that I'd say the quest is completed and most of it would be something where you cant just put down a marker on a map (especially when the hints to what happened in the forest are dynamically generated - tracking those with external programs would by breaching Intrepids Security Policies).
It would also be funny to have "deceiver" quests where the wrong places are marked on purpose and rewards might be reduced when you visit the decoy places "oh no, too much time has gone by and part of the harvest has already been destroyed by the wolves!". And there could be strong hints to this being a deception so that one could acutally go directly to the right place. Proposal 2: Extra rewards
If Intrepid intends for player to engage with their quests more and not rely on map markers to find their way, maybe they could hide additional resources within the quest texts, stuff that can be found on the way there or in a secret location near the quest site.
Example: "The bandits have holed themselves in down by the old castle ruin near the lake. To get there, follow the road that splits at the statue of the Journeyman and take the right path. It might help to sacrifice 4 gold coins at the Journeymans Statue, he grants blessings and bestows good luck onto adventurers like you!"
If a player receives the blessing, they could have a better drop chance for good quality loot at the castle ruin and/or are able to open a hidden trap door that leads into the storeroom of an especially greedy bandit who took more than his fair share. CONCLUSION
I'd say rather than just disallowing map markers, it would make more sense to provide reasons & incentives to not rely on them in the first place. Basically reward deeper engagement with the primary material.
The thing is, rather than just yelling out hoping someone will answer, or walking uo to random people and asking, or asking friends hoping they aren't busy, I'll simply go straight to where I know players willing and wanting to help will have that information for me.
Easiest way to solve this is to have less quests but make them more immersive/interesting. Saving 10 mines.from a goblin invasion is significantly more boring than saving only 1.
MMO's need less convince features in general. Older gamers had some magic to them and i think that comes down to the design philosphy of making a world that players exsist in rather than a game convenient for players.
this magic slowly died when the design philosophy shifted to making MMO easier for players centering around them than making a world where players just exsisted in
Navigation skill is as valid a skill as any other, I think it should have its place, and be treated and balanced similar to any other type of skill-check in the game. I don't believe guides are really the root problem, and if you think they are then go read a fighting game guide thats been updated for years and see how good you would do in a tournament. The design just needs to make guides less relevant, by having an actual fail state where players can get lost, by keeping things complex, dynamic, unpredictable, and require actual skill and strategy to navigate around the world of which cant necessarily be read about in a guide and needs to be experienced and learned. This way, at least the guides have room for imperfection and room for improvement and optimization, and take actual time to flesh out, allowing for more skilled players to not only enjoy the experience and catch up to those trying to "cheat", but to also thrive by having valuable input for that content.
Apparently Intrepid agrees, since one of their goals is for players to get "lost" while navigating around the world.
MMO's need less convince features in general. Older gamers had some magic to them and i think that comes down to the design philosphy of making a world that players exsist in rather than a game convenient for players.
this magic slowly died when the design philosophy shifted to making MMO easier for players centering around them than making a world where players just exsisted in
Any magic you think there would be was simply the fact you were playing a genre in its infant state and it was all new and special to you.
You are reading more deep into it with design than that is really there. We could go through any older game and break down the elements on how basic things are. At the time they were great and pushed things but that was a decade + ago. You all are deep in nostalgia and refuse to admit it. If this wasn't the case games that copied WoW would have been successful instead of dying.
What you think is good about questing was not good by todays standards. Mmorpgs have never had good questing as well imo, when you compare to it any other single play game.
Any magic you think there would be was simply the fact you were playing a genre in its infant state and it was all new and special to you.
Yeah, that's why people are playing modern MMOs and not rebooting old eras.
Oh wait...
Let me turn on Alien vrs predatures from pc. Guess I'm rebooting a old era, o wait its still dying and not growing...
You really want to watch your genre die don't you, that you are convincing yourself the same few people playing a old game is going to suddenly grow the genre dying without getting new blood year by year.
Moment something new that is good comes out kills any notion of you thinking people actually want to play the same old mmo. Things you think are good with questing is the issue that leads to a game not being good.
But feel free to humor me, what is the most memorable quest in WoW from launch content.
@Veeshan I generally agree.
Over simplifying and saturating the game full of QoL changes just causes the player base to just bypass the game design and it snowballs over time quite detrimentally. This just results in leap frogging because the QoL becomes the norm, then that becomes an inconvenience, then they adjust it again and then it just hits a point of pathetic design and awful demographic to cater to. Constantly bypassing those inconveniences directly relates to bad player habits and needs for dopamine hits. It's literally at the core of mainstream games and mobile gaming design.
This is why I take a lot of peoples idea's as a grain of salt. Is their idea better for the game or is it just because they want an inconvenience to cater to their needs/wants for an easier game. If the dev's don't know where that line should be drawn then this game is in trouble lol.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited November 2023
No issue with limited or now waypoints.. but the landscapes and cities must have clear semiotics and landmarking / landmarks to ensure the there is a means to navigate the changing cities and the landscape seasonal changes.
Comments
Removing quest related waypoints specifically, isn't the optimal handling method for this.
The waypoints are a symptom of something else in design that leads to their creation. It barely matters if they are there or not. So if having them will appease some people long enough for the chance that they learn to appreciate the other underlying parts, having them is better.
Games are not ruined by waypoints, nor quest markers. They are ruined by quests where the point of the quest is 'find this location on a map and then receive a reward for being able to navigate to a location'.
since i hate questing, i like the game showing me on the map where to go and what to do (except for nw markers, they are always off lol). if you want to read the quests, you can still read the quests. and there are quests that you have to read even if you get a marker on the map...
edit: you can still add quest markers and make it so that people need to group. one thing doesn't exclude the other /facepalm
If you hate questing why are you even playing MMORPGs. You said the exact same thing on another post.
Your thought process here is so removed from the nuance of the discussion I don't even want to explain it to you.
for everything else that i can do, other than running around talking to npc.
why do I play mmorpg? i like partying up and doing dungeons
castle sieges
pvp events
open world pvp
killing mobs.
building my character, thats the best part for me.
i rather spend 10 hours killing mobs than 10 hours running around questing.
im not gonna say hey remove quests because the game isnt about me, its about what people like. people liek questing and markers.
i could ask you the same thing. if you like questing so much, why are you playing mmorpg? just play the witcher or something.
Let me rephrase. Since you hate questing, why should anyone value your input on how quests are done?
Since you established your just gonna not like questing anyways, I think it's probably a safe bet for intrepid to focus on players who actually like the "RPG" Elements in an MMORPG.
A little rough, but sure.
I love questing. I love to write quests. I find quest design and studying quests and the way they immerse or fail to immerse players to be one of the best parts of MMOs (from the perspective of appreciating their design).
I think Depraved is still right. Even for this 'niche' game. Even for this 'return to oldschool'.
Different people have different ideals of what is important or necessary just the same way they have different actual preferences for their personal enjoyment. From the 'MMORPG' perspective, some of the best Quests are those that the player defines themselves by choosing not to do.
This game needs the Sullen Guild Master, the Overbearing Warlord, the Blood-soaked Soldier, and the Heartless Mercenary just as much as it needs the Hero Sojourner.
Hating quests is supposed to be another entirely valid way of interacting with quests.
Players doing the quest them themselves would never notice and would be just fine. Those trying to 'cheat' would go to the wrong place and get frustrated.
The same concept could apply to other game assets, such as bosses. Change their defenses, skills, actions every month or so. We would then have to Pay Attention and those who blindly followed the online 'guides' would be rewarded with party wipes rather than with gear.
In time, players might start to give up on those inaccurate online guides and YouTubes and learn to think.
I wish, but they'd just do what they do now and wait for their favorite Content Creator to go through everything again, remake and update all the guides, and then rewatch those, giving said Content Creator even more views, presence, and support, encouraging them to make 'updating guides' their full time job, beginning an arms race of datamining...
Mm, humanity.
because I have to do the quests that are important anyways. might have to do quests to fight a boss. gonna have to quest to level from 1 to 50, etc.
i'd argue that my input is more important than yours in this particular case. designers are looking for users' pain points to address them. walking around for an hour because the quest text isn't clear, or because you have to kill a specific mob that is always dead because other players killed it and you can't find it even if you are at the right spot, then you start scratching your head and think you aren't at the right spot, etc. those (and more of course) are pain points that the designers want to address. they want people like me who hate questing to like the quests.
also, it depends on what you want to do with your game. not every moment of the game has to be a puzzle that you have to solve to move on to the next puzzle. this isn't a puzzle game, it's an mmorpg.
there is a reason why we went from not having markers to having markers. think about that for a second.
Same reason why MMORPGs have mini-maps and/or a compass - in addition to a larger map which indicates player location.
Lots of people have exceedingly poor navigation and spatial awareness in a 2D setting with limited senses.
Trying to make the journey bad, in turn makes questing bad. There should be plenty of hidden elements and reasons to explore which make question and exploration a lot more fun.
If you personally want things to be extra difficulty you would refuse to use map and other elements. But as you or one pointed out you use add-on if they are available. Point to the fact that it is not a element you care about enough to enjoy.
Could anyone play a single player game maybe like elden ring and play it as easy and get hacks, sure. But that ruins the game and they deal and overcome the difficulty for most players. Because hat is a fun element of the game they care about, which makes it look worse on you for this kind of suggestion while using add ons in WoW.
Additional challenges such as having an elite enemy or mob at the location of a waypoint are typically enough to augment exploration-type quests.
If I'm stuck, I'll look for help from players.
The thing is, rather than just yelling out hoping someone will answer, or walking uo to random people and asking, or asking friends hoping they aren't busy, I'll simply go straight to where I know players willing and wanting to help will have that information for me.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
They got a subtle way of joking at times but I don't think this is the case. It's evident many players from mmorpg's especially mainstream ones rarely do go to other players for questions especially with the accessibility of add-ons and websites for information. Game design plays a big role in that as well. A lot of these MMORPG's are more like Massive Single-player Online (MSO) due to encouraging players to interact less via theme park design. If you look at amusement park designs, consumers don't usually mingle much, they just follow the map to what attracts them and wait in lines. Add technology in the mix, well you get the idea.
The internet makes it so people can exclude themselves from mingling more. I remember in early Dark Age of Camelot days, there was no quick minimise and open up 20 web browsers to find everything within a few seconds as there is today. The frontier map for RvR was mysterious and fun to explore. Players set up outposts and communicated, great times to be a gamer who enjoyed immersion to be honest. World of Warcraft let that die with add-ons and theme parking implementation. Many MMORPG's followed suit as every AAA studio was trying to get in on the cash cow. The target audience and demographic diminished and the monthly active subscriptions proved it.
Because somebody who hates them is more critical. The others are more tolerant.
A quest system which even Depraved would appreciate would be superior to quests you previously seen in other mmorpgs.
Proposal 1: Deeper quests
"Speak to the mayor." - No, farmer no. 294762, go speak to him yourself.
"Kill 20 bandtis in the castle ruin" or "Kill 10 wolves." - That's not a quest, that's a task that's a fix to an issue that 'should' run deeper. There might be a reason why this pack of wolves has come out of the forest and stepped onto that farmers field.
In my opinion good quest design would be to not end the quest there but to automatically extend the quest to explore the cause of the migration - which would mean exploring an area with no further specification. There you could find for example tracks of the pack or big feathers and the carcasses of a wolf pack leader and ultimately a cave in which a gryphon has settled down to nest. Then you give player the option: Either kill the gryphon for its skin, feathers and egg (gryphon husbandry incoming!) or steal the eggs, build a new nest atop the castle ruin with the bandits and let the gryphon not only take care of the bandits but also secure it from being infested with bandits again, which grants access to their loot and also a gryphon egg (because why not).
With that I'd say the quest is completed and most of it would be something where you cant just put down a marker on a map (especially when the hints to what happened in the forest are dynamically generated - tracking those with external programs would by breaching Intrepids Security Policies).
It would also be funny to have "deceiver" quests where the wrong places are marked on purpose and rewards might be reduced when you visit the decoy places "oh no, too much time has gone by and part of the harvest has already been destroyed by the wolves!". And there could be strong hints to this being a deception so that one could acutally go directly to the right place.
Proposal 2: Extra rewards
If Intrepid intends for player to engage with their quests more and not rely on map markers to find their way, maybe they could hide additional resources within the quest texts, stuff that can be found on the way there or in a secret location near the quest site.
Example: "The bandits have holed themselves in down by the old castle ruin near the lake. To get there, follow the road that splits at the statue of the Journeyman and take the right path. It might help to sacrifice 4 gold coins at the Journeymans Statue, he grants blessings and bestows good luck onto adventurers like you!"
If a player receives the blessing, they could have a better drop chance for good quality loot at the castle ruin and/or are able to open a hidden trap door that leads into the storeroom of an especially greedy bandit who took more than his fair share.
CONCLUSION
I'd say rather than just disallowing map markers, it would make more sense to provide reasons & incentives to not rely on them in the first place. Basically reward deeper engagement with the primary material.
We are all bad at reading intent in text - and yes, the first line was a joke.
The rest of it wasn't - it is exactly what most people will do.
He doesn't know about the game.
this magic slowly died when the design philosophy shifted to making MMO easier for players centering around them than making a world where players just exsisted in
Apparently Intrepid agrees, since one of their goals is for players to get "lost" while navigating around the world.
Any magic you think there would be was simply the fact you were playing a genre in its infant state and it was all new and special to you.
You are reading more deep into it with design than that is really there. We could go through any older game and break down the elements on how basic things are. At the time they were great and pushed things but that was a decade + ago. You all are deep in nostalgia and refuse to admit it. If this wasn't the case games that copied WoW would have been successful instead of dying.
What you think is good about questing was not good by todays standards. Mmorpgs have never had good questing as well imo, when you compare to it any other single play game.
Yeah, that's why people are playing modern MMOs and not rebooting old eras.
Oh wait...
Let me turn on Alien vrs predatures from pc. Guess I'm rebooting a old era, o wait its still dying and not growing...
You really want to watch your genre die don't you, that you are convincing yourself the same few people playing a old game is going to suddenly grow the genre dying without getting new blood year by year.
Moment something new that is good comes out kills any notion of you thinking people actually want to play the same old mmo. Things you think are good with questing is the issue that leads to a game not being good.
But feel free to humor me, what is the most memorable quest in WoW from launch content.
Over simplifying and saturating the game full of QoL changes just causes the player base to just bypass the game design and it snowballs over time quite detrimentally. This just results in leap frogging because the QoL becomes the norm, then that becomes an inconvenience, then they adjust it again and then it just hits a point of pathetic design and awful demographic to cater to. Constantly bypassing those inconveniences directly relates to bad player habits and needs for dopamine hits. It's literally at the core of mainstream games and mobile gaming design.
This is why I take a lot of peoples idea's as a grain of salt. Is their idea better for the game or is it just because they want an inconvenience to cater to their needs/wants for an easier game. If the dev's don't know where that line should be drawn then this game is in trouble lol.