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SteamDeck / Proton

It's not been raised for a year, so I think it's about time to bring this up again... as the landscape has changed a LOT over the last year.

No support... I get it... but we don't need support, we just need to not be actively blocked, if EAC is used, then tick the box to include the necessary library... I have Alpha 2 access as much to help debug Proton so that AoC runs flawlessly on release day, as to test out AoC itself...

We wouldn't flood the team with reports of issues that are unique to proton, but I will say that I played Eve Online for many years using Wine, and I never did encounter an issue that couldn't be replicated on Windows.

So to the Intrepid folks... I'd say, the Linux folks aren't gonna flood your support system with issues that are nothing to do with you, but support can mean different things to different people... and it'd be really nice to have some acknowledgement that you're not going to actively block SteamDeck / Proton users... even if you're not planning to test, or make any special concessions to that platform.... after all, those users are often going to be the most technically savvy and helpful users when it comes to addressing issues.
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Comments

  • other people will flood the team with reports xd

    you cant half make something and let users figure it out. thats such a bad service. if you let them do whatever they want with the client to make it work, then that opens up the door for cheating, hacks, and exploits. the client should never be modified.

    IS will either go hard or go home, no halfsies. and probs not worth it for them to go hard on this one.
  • > other people will flood the team with reports xd

    Personally, I don't think that's likely after all, we're already here... and we're already playing all those games you think of as "Windows" games... and have been for MANY years.... so either way, people will try to do this.

    Fundamentally, no one is modifying anyone's client... Windows is simply an implementation of a set of API's primarily Win32/64 and DirectX... it's just that it's not the only implementation of those API's... hell, it's not even the only Microsoft implementation of those API's... that's what standards are supposed to be about.... Microsoft was legally required to document the Windows API's to prove that they were not a monopoly!

    EAC literally supports this as a platform, there's a literal checkbox in the SDK to add the extra components for EAC to support the alternate Win32/DirectX implementation... so this is not opening the door for anyone to do anything,

    Here's the thing tho... this kind of response does make it really very clear that you've not gamed on Linux... we are going hard on making our implementation of the Win32/64/DirectX API's as close to Microsoft's implementation as possible, and part of that is getting early access and alpha versions of new games to make sure that all that testing that development studio's put into making the game perfect pays off on our platform too... if the game doesn't work flawlessly, that's something we can fix on our side... Valve has put a lot of effort into polishing the experience for their users, but Wine, and our implementations of DirectX have been around for 30 years.... I personally used them to play Wow from the launch of Vanilla, as well as Eve Online....

    How do you install?... well, you download the installer and run it, just like you do on Windows... and you're gonna click on an icon when you want to play, what companies are worried about when they say that they don't want to support Linux is that they don't want people to call support and find someone who doesn't know their particular desktop, like they might not know how a Mac works... and we understand that completely, which is why we don't want vendors to waste time on that.... because the kind of people who make that call for help with their system are probably just doing something crazy, trying to run an AAA game on an integrated GPU from 2004 or whatever... and they should have read the minimum hardware spec!

    I say, go hard on making it work for those Windows API's and let us go hard on implementing those API's so things work as expected... and there will be no problems.... I don't see you worrying about if it'll work on Intel vs AMD... and the situation is analogous... they are both /independent/ implementations of the X86_64 instruction set.... made by entirely different companies, independently... again, that's what standards are for!
  • DepravedDepraved Member
    edited October 2023
    they will call tech support xd
    how do i know? because ive worked in tech support and ive received those calls. and its annoying because you cant say no to them even though linux isnt supported. there are more linux users than you and those who you might know.

    tbh it doesnt bother me at all if linux is supported. but i think it was you on another thread? or someone talking about the same thing asking to just let linux users figure it out...this means making client modifications to fix the things that don't work, or adding them yourself to Proton. pick one.

    and you are right. why would i play on linux? i dont want a glorified windows emulator for my games ;3
    only used linux for things that are good in linux. but that was years ago, im not that man anymore. if you know you know :D

    amd and intel are bad examples, because there is an intermediate layer called the operating system. you dont interact directly with the cpu, you interact through the os. you dont make a game for amd or intel, you make a game for mac or windows.

    if intrepid does it, then yay. but i highly doubt it. it would be easier to install windows and play aoc on it ;3

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Knevah wrote: »
    > other people will flood the team with reports xd

    Personally, I don't think that's likely after all

    It has been well documented many times in the past that games that allow or support Linux usually see 95% or so of all CS tickets being from the 2 or 3% of players that use it.

    As such, the comment that Linux users will flood the team with reports is demonstrably true.
  • Noaani wrote: »

    It has been well documented many times in the past that games that allow or support Linux usually see 95% or so of all CS tickets being from the 2 or 3% of players that use it.

    Citation needed... ;)

    The best I could find is a claim that Linux users were 0.1% of sales, but 20% of tickets... but that report has a couple of major issues with it... firstly, it's 5 years old, and the situation currently is like night and day compared to 12 months ago... so, somewhat invalid there, but also... how do you know what your percentage of sales are?...

    Fundamentally tho... this is where I think it's perfectly OK to say "we don't provide support for Linux users", companies often don't have staff, training etc. to support those people, and, gaming on Linux being somewhat newly mainstream, I think that's reasonable... we're only asking not to be blocked... if you have to say "Sorry, our support staff can't help you if you're not on Windows"... then knock yourself out.

    I had perhaps 25000 hours in Wow, over an alarmingly short period... back in the Vanilla/TBC days... I never once called them for support on an issue that was Linux related, and you can be sure I'm down in their statistics as a Windows user.

    I'd joke that you'd be better off saying you won't provide people with support for Intel Arc graphics, but I gotta admit that at this point, it's pretty good!... LOL.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited October 2023
    Knevah wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    It has been well documented many times in the past that games that allow or support Linux usually see 95% or so of all CS tickets being from the 2 or 3% of players that use it.

    Citation needed... ;)

    The best I could find is a claim that Linux users were 0.1% of sales, but 20% of tickets... but that report has a couple of major issues with it... firstly, it's 5 years old, and the situation currently is like night and day compared to 12 months ago...

    That report was a post on reddit originally, if you dig deep enough you'll find many, many more like it across the web.

    Even then though, if that 0.1% of Linux users from that one game were increased to 2 or 3 percent, that 20% would also increase (logically, in this case, to 400 - 600% of all tickets being Linux based).

    As to it being night and day - no it isn't. It is more like comparing night time to a different night time.

    You can say the difference is night and day when you no longer need to specify the Linux distribution you are using if you are having issues getting a game to work - much as I don't actually need to state which version of Windows I'm using.

    I'd love to see everything be readily available on Linux, honestly. The thing is, Linux needs to make itself more available than it is, rather than expecting software developers to run to it as it is.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited October 2023
    No. Get on with the program.
    You got nothing better to talk about than promote this?
  • Depraved wrote: »
    they will call tech support xd
    how do i know? because ive worked in tech support and ive received those calls. and its annoying because you cant say no to them even though linux isnt supported. there are more linux users than you and those who you might know.

    tbh it doesnt bother me at all if linux is supported. but i think it was you on another thread? or someone talking about the same thing asking to just let linux users figure it out...this means making client modifications to fix the things that don't work, or adding them yourself to Proton. pick one.

    and you are right. why would i play on linux? i dont want a glorified windows emulator for my games ;3
    only used linux for things that are good in linux. but that was years ago, im not that man anymore. if you know you know :D

    amd and intel are bad examples, because there is an intermediate layer called the operating system. you dont interact directly with the cpu, you interact through the os. you dont make a game for amd or intel, you make a game for mac or windows.

    Ditto, I've also worked in IT support... I feel ya... some of those people that call for stuff you don't support are very annoying... but the fact that there's a lot of Linux users is the point isn't it. Also, if you've not done this in the last 6 months, then you really need to realise that the landscape is really different now... I've gamed on Linux for a very long time, and I know, it was a pretty rough at times... but I'm out here getting whiplash seeing how fast it's improving to the point now that I can't find a game on Steam, or Epic that I can't run just by clicking on it... and the independent ones aren't far behind.... only the ones that don't check the box for EAC or whatever cause a problem.

    We can't make client modifications, that's basically impossible... but sure, If there was some deficiency in Proton, such that it doesn't exactly implement the necessary API's perfectly, and that causes a problem for a game, then someone will fix it, that's what open source is all about....

    Hmm, the comment about a "glorified windows emulator" is telling tho... because it's very definitely not an emulator... as I said, Microsoft argued that Win32/64 etc was a standard which others could implement, and were ordered to document it as part of their anti-trust case, to claim that they were not a monopoly... well, if you make something a standard..... We're just implementing a few libraries to implement that standard, in some cases that has lead to running games faster on the same hardware, as well as some older games now running on Linux even after the're no-longer working on Windows!

    Hmmm, things that were good in Linux years ago?... that'd be some kind of headless server application, most likely as you did have to be a bit dedicated to run Linux on the desktop for quite a while there, I know... I did it... but like I said... whiplash!

    Intel and AMD... well, I mean, you don'[t here Microsoft complaining that they don't want to support AMD do you, there's no intermediate layer there.... but again, the issue here is the multiple definitions of the word support... since it can be talking about taking calls and helping people... or it can mean making a custom version of a product for a particular platform... and we don't want either of those things... All we really care about is a) if EAC or similar isn't involved, then we're golden, if there's any issue that with Proton, we'll fix it, or b) if EAC is involved, just tick the box so we're not actively excluded... and then we're also golden... not so much to ask really.

    Funny you should say that you don't make a game for AMD or Intel, but it was Quake that killed Cyrix, because Quake supported AMD, and Intel, but not Cyrix... or at least it didn't run correctly on Cyrix.processors!

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited October 2023
    Knevah wrote: »
    but the fact that there's a lot of Linux users is the point isn't it.
    Knevah wrote: »
    The best I could find is a claim that Linux users were 0.1% of sales
    Context.
  • @Knevah
    You can add any game to your steam library and use it as a launcher.
    But I don't see them specifically or directly supporting steam deck as priority or goal any time soon. but who knows about the future. Not likely as far as i know :smile:
  • Knevah wrote: »
    The best I could find is a claim that Linux users were 0.1% of sales
    Context.[/quote]

    Nicely out of context I thought, considering it was 5 years ago, and the point was that:-

    a) things have changed rather radically since then, and

    b) how do you know what percentage of your sales are to people who will use it on Linux... Please fill in a questionaire, said no game ever!
  • Isn't windows OS essentially a modern extension of the Linux OS. So wouldn't you theoretically be able install it on Linux if you wanted to create a world of pain for yourself? lol.
  • @Knevah
    You can add any game to your steam library and use it as a launcher.
    But I don't see them specifically or directly supporting steam deck as priority or goal any time soon. but who knows about the future. Not likely as far as i know :smile:

    I agree! The point was about what "support" means... or no "support", as that word can mean different things... to different people!

    My point was literally that I don't feel necessarily entitled to raise a support call about an issue when not running on Windows... this is absolutely fine, (although I have done so many times in other MMO's, after verifying with someone else that they can replicate the issue on Windows.

    Nor do I feel that necessarily anyone at Intrepid should modify the client specifically to run on the Steam Deck, Proton or any other Linux platform... It is starting to happen a little now, for example Microsoft recently issued a hotfix for Forza Horizon 5 specifically for improved Proton compatibility.... and I know that CCP have, but this is not the norm.

    All I'm really hoping for, and all I think we, as a community really want is not to be deliberately excluded... Currently if this doesn't use EAC, then it will almost certainly work just fine, and if it does use EAC, then there's a simple checkbox in the EAC SDK to allow it to do whatever checks it needs on Linux too.... job done.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited October 2023
    Knevah wrote: »
    Nicely out of context I thought, considering it was 5 years ago, and the point was that:-

    a) things have changed rather radically since then, and

    b) how do you know what percentage of your sales are to people who will use it on Linux... Please fill in a questionaire, said no game ever!

    The big thing that hasn't really changed is the number of Linux users.

    Yes, the Steam Deck has added a few million, but that is in a pool of a few hundred million gamers around the world.

    All up, it isn't a very big difference.

    Also, most games that report anything at all back to the publisher (error reports etc) have a fairly good idea of what percentage of users are using each operating system.

    As of last month, 1.63% of all Steam Hardware Survey respondents were using a version of Linux, and that number was down on the previous survey, not up. Arch Linux (the distro on the Steam Deck) makes up a total of 0.13% of Steam users (and is also slightly down) - but that includes people just using Arch without a Steam Deck.

    Steam Deck numbers really are insignificant still.

    The thing is, the vast vast majority of those users are using it as one gaming machine while they have multiple. Everyone I know that has a Linux gaming machine (including Steam Decks) also have a Windows gaming machine. This means that any work on Linux isn't going to translate to even as many additional sales as that incredibly low number would suggest.
  • Isn't windows OS essentially a modern extension of the Linux OS. So wouldn't you theoretically be able install it on Linux if you wanted to create a world of pain for yourself? lol.

    Hahah,

    > Isn't windows OS essentially a modern extension of the Linux OS.

    Sadly, no... I would say "not yet", but that might be optimistic.

    > wouldn't you theoretically be able install it on Linux if you wanted

    Yes, unless EAC or similar was used to explicitly block it.

    > create a world of pain for yourself?

    You've never done this, have you... ;) Here's a screenshot I prepared earlier.

  • Knevah wrote: »
    @Knevah
    You can add any game to your steam library and use it as a launcher.
    But I don't see them specifically or directly supporting steam deck as priority or goal any time soon. but who knows about the future. Not likely as far as i know :smile:

    I agree! The point was about what "support" means... or no "support", as that word can mean different things... to different people!

    My point was literally that I don't feel necessarily entitled to raise a support call about an issue when not running on Windows... this is absolutely fine, (although I have done so many times in other MMO's, after verifying with someone else that they can replicate the issue on Windows.

    Nor do I feel that necessarily anyone at Intrepid should modify the client specifically to run on the Steam Deck, Proton or any other Linux platform... It is starting to happen a little now, for example Microsoft recently issued a hotfix for Forza Horizon 5 specifically for improved Proton compatibility.... and I know that CCP have, but this is not the norm.

    All I'm really hoping for, and all I think we, as a community really want is not to be deliberately excluded... Currently if this doesn't use EAC, then it will almost certainly work just fine, and if it does use EAC, then there's a simple checkbox in the EAC SDK to allow it to do whatever checks it needs on Linux too.... job done.

    EAC as in easy anti cheat? that's a controversial program all on its own with what it has access to lol

    Besides that I believe they're implementing their own cheat detection software imbedded into the game but I could be mistaken. They're going to have bot detection and all that obviously. Some MMORPG companies can even ID hardware and put it on the ban list. Should always be careful about buying used GPU's and what not.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Knevah wrote: »
    Here's a screenshot I prepared earlier.
    Screenshots are fun.
    z455y9fh1vna.png
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Knevah wrote: »
    Nicely out of context I thought, considering it was 5 years ago, and the point was that:-

    a) things have changed rather radically since then, and

    b) how do you know what percentage of your sales are to people who will use it on Linux... Please fill in a questionaire, said no game ever!

    The big thing that hasn't really changed is the number of Linux users.

    > Everyone I know that has a Linux gaming machine (including Steam Decks) also have a Windows gaming machine.

    Well, now it's not everyone... any more ;)

    > Linux isn't going to translate to .... many additional sales.

    Perhaps not... or perhaps so, it was a significant minority on Eve Online... also, it depends what you consider significant... even it it's only 10,000 people, paying monthly for a subscription, that's not nothing... and all we're really asking for is if you must use EAC, at least tick the box to allow it to also check Proton users.... literally zero effort!
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Knevah wrote: »
    Here's a screenshot I prepared earlier.
    Screenshots are fun.
    z455y9fh1vna.png

    Indeed... 1.6% of steam users is 2 million people,... or, a potential market of $200 million a year with a subscription model.... ;) Can you check a box for $200 million?
  • Knevah wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Knevah wrote: »
    Here's a screenshot I prepared earlier.
    Screenshots are fun.
    z455y9fh1vna.png

    Indeed... 1.6% of steam users is 2 million people,... or, a potential market of $200 million a year with a subscription model.... ;) Can you check a box for $200 million?

    if the game is hypothetically $20 a month, that's $40 mil a month, $480 mil a year assuming every single one plays it monthly.

    But i can see how $200 mil could be more practical haha

  • EAC as in easy anti cheat? that's a controversial program all on its own with what it has access to lol

    Besides that I believe they're implementing their own cheat detection software imbedded into the game but I could be mistaken. They're going to have bot detection and all that obviously. Some MMORPG companies can even ID hardware and put it on the ban list. Should always be careful about buying used GPU's and what not.

    I was going to make this point actually... you're likely to get more support calls about EAC if that's the route you go, I've not seen other MMO's feel the need to do that... Eve Online is a giant sandbox game, and Wow is... well, everyone knows what that is... it's just that using UE, the temptation will be there to use EAC, and therefore I feel the need to highlight that we, as an interested party are here.
  • Knevah wrote: »

    EAC as in easy anti cheat? that's a controversial program all on its own with what it has access to lol

    Besides that I believe they're implementing their own cheat detection software imbedded into the game but I could be mistaken. They're going to have bot detection and all that obviously. Some MMORPG companies can even ID hardware and put it on the ban list. Should always be careful about buying used GPU's and what not.

    I was going to make this point actually... you're likely to get more support calls about EAC if that's the route you go, I've not seen other MMO's feel the need to do that... Eve Online is a giant sandbox game, and Wow is... well, everyone knows what that is... it's just that using UE, the temptation will be there to use EAC, and therefore I feel the need to highlight that we, as an interested party are here.

    Relatively true but ironically considering how many dev's use Unity and publish on steam, they usually end up being the ones with the highest hack and cheat rate regardless of EAC. I don't know why people use Unity over UE other than the fact it was more affordable. Not that games in UE cant be hacked, it's just not as common.

  • Knevah wrote: »

    EAC as in easy anti cheat? that's a controversial program all on its own with what it has access to lol

    Besides that I believe they're implementing their own cheat detection software imbedded into the game but I could be mistaken. They're going to have bot detection and all that obviously. Some MMORPG companies can even ID hardware and put it on the ban list. Should always be careful about buying used GPU's and what not.

    I was going to make this point actually... you're likely to get more support calls about EAC if that's the route you go, I've not seen other MMO's feel the need to do that... Eve Online is a giant sandbox game, and Wow is... well, everyone knows what that is... it's just that using UE, the temptation will be there to use EAC, and therefore I feel the need to highlight that we, as an interested party are here.

    Relatively true but ironically considering how many dev's use Unity and publish on steam, they usually end up being the ones with the highest hack and cheat rate regardless of EAC. I don't know why people use Unity over UE other than the fact it was more affordable. Not that games in UE cant be hacked, it's just not as common.

    Wow, did we come to a point were we can agree... I'll take it!.. /ducks
  • Knevah wrote: »
    Knevah wrote: »

    EAC as in easy anti cheat? that's a controversial program all on its own with what it has access to lol

    Besides that I believe they're implementing their own cheat detection software imbedded into the game but I could be mistaken. They're going to have bot detection and all that obviously. Some MMORPG companies can even ID hardware and put it on the ban list. Should always be careful about buying used GPU's and what not.

    I was going to make this point actually... you're likely to get more support calls about EAC if that's the route you go, I've not seen other MMO's feel the need to do that... Eve Online is a giant sandbox game, and Wow is... well, everyone knows what that is... it's just that using UE, the temptation will be there to use EAC, and therefore I feel the need to highlight that we, as an interested party are here.

    Relatively true but ironically considering how many dev's use Unity and publish on steam, they usually end up being the ones with the highest hack and cheat rate regardless of EAC. I don't know why people use Unity over UE other than the fact it was more affordable. Not that games in UE cant be hacked, it's just not as common.

    Wow, did we come to a point were we can agree... I'll take it!.. /ducks

    lol :smile:
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Knevah wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Knevah wrote: »
    Here's a screenshot I prepared earlier.
    Screenshots are fun.
    z455y9fh1vna.png

    Indeed... 1.6% of steam users is 2 million people,... or, a potential market of $200 million a year with a subscription model.... ;) Can you check a box for $200 million?

    That isn't how numbers work - but lets just follow the way you're using them here for fun.

    If it were, then the logical thing to do would be for Intrepid to instead focus all of that attention at the 96% that are on windows, focusing on that 120,000,000 people, which according to you is a potential market of $12,000,000,000 a year.

    If there is literally any negative side effect at all to pushing that button (which there is), why would it get pushed?
  • Noaani wrote: »
    That isn't how numbers work - but lets just follow the way you're using them here for fun.

    LOL, clearly not... but the point stands that even those 2 million users represent a non-trivial potential revenue stream... even if it is small compared to Windows.
  • windows holds that dominant market share for pc gaming.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    If there is literally any negative side effect at all to pushing that button (which there is), why would it get pushed?

    And your negative impact is, what?... at best a few KB extra download on top of ~50GB game assets, for a library that's literally not loaded on Windows so cannot be causing you any issues.

    Also, it's not really been stated if EAC will be used with Ashes, after all this kind of invasive anti-cheat software has not been necessary in other major MMO's as the kinds of activity that you want to avoid is really much more simple than some kind of DLL attack on the game client, or wall hacks etc... it's much more basic than that and has always been dealt with in a much more basic way in other MMO's...
  • windows holds that dominant market share for pc gaming.

    Well, we can't hope to change that if we don't allow competition... Our companies web developers spent a lot of time arguing with me there was no point coding our company website to support anything other than IE6, because that was 95% of the market... and in that way IE6 held the web back for a decade.
  • Knevah wrote: »
    windows holds that dominant market share for pc gaming.

    Well, we can't hope to change that if we don't allow competition... Our companies web developers spent a lot of time arguing with me there was no point coding our company website to support anything other than IE6, because that was 95% of the market... and in that way IE6 held the web back for a decade.

    True but I'm fine with windows haha. Linux seems like a head ache for those who don't want to deal with it. Many computer enthusiasts still use it especially if you know what you're doing on it.

    Rather not buy an apple/mac for gaming regardless if more gaming is going to cloud. Probably never will. Look at GPU's, Nvidia controls the market share yet AMD is making some great improvements and competitive pricing over the years and slowly raising their market share. Many buy Nvidia for the FOMO of DLSS and cash grab things like RTX where in most situations on a modern game you wouldn't be competitive gaming with DLSS and RTX can literally be achieved in UE5 via developer tools.
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