It already looks great. I would love to see other caravans and animals as caravans same as in silkroad online!
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan System Preview?
Since you didn’t showed pvp yet I’m concerned that anybody could attack the caravan? What was the reward for the other players who protected your caravan? There should be also a level system. With each successful trade you gain exp and later higher level that leads to a higher profit, better caravan items and so on (for the trader who drives the caravan(. As I mentioned in another post: all players should have a „job cape“, trader, hunter and thief. Only players that wear thiefcape can attack caravan, thief cape have to be put on in safezone. All this 3 capes put players in special pvp mode. Hunter who protect trades also gain ecp and higher lvl for successful trades. With higher lvl also higher profit. And another idea: let hunter gain famepoints and with high famepoints they can get a famerank and an emblem beside their name. Same for thief’s, that would be a long term motivation to become one of the best thief or hunter, or trader and everybody could see it because of the rank emblem beside their name.
If anybody can attack the caravan then we might not see many successful trades? So job capes might be the solution.
Do you have thoughts or feelings regarding some of the aspects of Caravans, such as Caravan components, Glint, Commodities, Exchange Rates, etc?
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Please have a look at caravans in BDO where you can upgrade the wagon parts for higher stats. That’s a great way, also they have cosmetic wagons that give little bit better stats in their shop. Would love to see many different appearances of the wagons.
We have caravan skins in the current shop - they don't give stats though.
In regards to the node sigil question, i think its super important to display the players node citizenship to everyone either via small icon next to name or what not.
This help identifies node citizen actions from a diplomatic standpoint, if your citizens keep getting attacked by people of a certain node u kinda want to know so u can do something about it via war or diplomacy
I am a little bit disappointed with the reduction of monster certificates into generic 'glint'. When the idea of monster certificates was originally introduced, it was a catch-all term to represent the valuable resources you got from looting monsters outside of gathering, like wolf teeth or other such items that would be useful/of value in a generic sense. Glint seems to just serve the same purpose as gold that takes up inventory space as far as I can tell. I am unclear on why you couldn't sell monster certificates like wolf teeth for gold and just buy commodities for gold... unless glint is not tradable between players, you can just 'buy' commodities indirectly anyways.
The idea of commodities is okay, the important part is them being 'unique' to the node or biome. However, it feels strange to be able to just carry all your glint elsewhere via mule/your person, and since glint is not unique to location, buy commodities at a different node to transport from there. This creates situations where you could try to go to less populated areas of the world to spend your glint and utilize caravans there for profit. This isn't necessarily bad, but takes away from game 'hubs' and makes caravan PvP harder to specifically pursue.
Lastly, beyond just the distance of the nodes and how many of that type of commodity has been sold in the last 7 days, the game should really really have a random or mayor/node driven way for certain commodities to be requested for bonus profit. This would create a gold rush sense, create demand for resources that may not have much demand normally, and create caravan PvP hotspots leading to more player friction.
Please make glint like a token in WoW: Namely, it has a UI section which is attached to the Inventory but not actually in bag space. Its come to my attention that the glint kind of represents Bronze, Silver and Gold. I believe there's a fourth - Legendary or Platinum. The glint can still drop upon death but I don't want the inventory spaces to be taken up by glint.
Please make glint like a token in WoW: Namely, it has a UI section which is attached to the Inventory but not actually in bag space. Its come to my attention that the glint kind of represents Bronze, Silver and Gold. I believe there's a fourth - Legendary or Platinum. The glint can still drop upon death but I don't want the inventory spaces to be taken up by glint.
This. For the love of god, do not fill up our inventories with smth that can just be a currency-type of an item.
Please also randomise the Glint Drops - So, a Legendary Glint can drop from an uncommon mob or a common Glint can drop from a Legendary Mob. Basically, the loot table has all types of glint for all types of mobs. It might be like that already but we just wanted to make the request lol.
We'd also like an auto-exchange functionality between the glints. So each glint has a value compared to the other glints much like the gold value. That way, purchases can be made without exact glint numbers if the subsequent expense can be covered by a different set of glints to the required glint. Change can also be given for example.
TLDR: The caravan system is a glorified escort quest. I find it worrying that it's presented as the main fuel of the economy.
Ok, this wasn't easy to watch or to write about.
My first impressions from the showcase are that getting a caravan from point A to point B is no different from hundreds escort quests in other MMOs, except this time one player essentially becomes the NPC. These quests are notoriously boring. The major reason behind that is players aren't given means to speed the quest up or change its dynamics. Time between departure and arrival of the caravan was about 25 minutes in the showcase; in other MMOs I bang my head against the keyboard if it takes more than 5. All events, be it a wandering raid boss or a fallen tree blocking the road, seemed artificially put there for the sole purpose of creating a delay, which wouldn't matter if they created some excitement to be had, but they didn't.
Role of the driver looked even less fun. Steven's character basically became the escorted NPC and for nearly half an hour he couldn't (or chose not to) do anything else but drive or push 3 buttons whenever they came off CD. The process of upgrading the caravan itself seemed ok, much like gearing up a PC albeit with different stats, but it did little to spice up the trip in the end.
I write all this fully aware that everything is Work In Progress (tm) and we naturally didn't get to see interference of a populated world much less PVP, and dearly hope to be proven wrong in playtest. But as far as first impressions go, the actual gameplay of the caravan system seems lacking and it seems like an uphill battle to stake a significant portion of the game economy on it.
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truenoirMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
How do you feel about the Caravan System Preview so far?
I would say the thing I could see being an issue is the whole building the caravan and the fact that it has to be done close to an outpost. Even with guards in the surrounding area camping will likely be an issue. If we take Archeage for example with the trade packs they could be crafted on land we owned and protected by placing it on that land then moving it at specific times later with a timer period. With the system you showcased there's a limited area in which the caravan can be deployed which means people can just wait in that area for anyone deploying and kill them during the time it takes to summon it. I'm not saying that I hate pvp because that's one of the main things I like in games but this would likely make me not want to run the caravan myself and rather be camping killing others for there's instead.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Caravan system?
The PVP it would have been nice to see that interaction in the live stream. Avoiding monsters is cool and all but players is where the caravan system comes alive.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan System Preview?
Just what I mentioned above about the summoning of it.
Do you have thoughts or feelings regarding some of the aspects of Caravans, such as Caravan components, Glint, Commodities, Exchange Rates, etc?
I'm kind of surprised we are mostly just buying specific materials from vendors to do the caravan system and not crafting our own items. If we could craft our own that might give us more options to deploy them in areas outside of trading posts giving more flexibility and security.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Archeage was really the only game I came in contact with the trade pack system and it was a good system up until they started turning every area into safe zones and discouraging the pvp systems that's really what lead to the downfall of the game overall. They didn't want people to have risk vs reward. But the beginning of archeage where carts had collision and you could effectively block people in and kill them for those trade packs was fun times. I don't know how collision works in ashes and whether people can block a caravan in that method but too seeing as there's off road options changes the dynamic of it more then archeage. The main issue is how to go about allowing people to deploy because the current system doesn't seem like it will work. People will likely just hang out and watch to see who's deploying and then hunt them down with a zerg of people.
angelicshiyaMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited November 2023
How do you feel about the Caravan System Preview so far?
WAS GREAT
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Caravan system?
BEING ABLE TO PARTICIPATE WITH IT WITHOUT BEING A GATHER/PROCESSOR. I JUST WANTED TO FIGHT MONSTERS AND TRAVEL THE WORLD, NOW AS IM FIGHTING MONSTERS, I CAN GATHER GLINT AND TRADE THOSE IN FOR COMMODITIES AND USE CARAVAN SYSTEM. AT FIRST I WASN'T GOING TO USE CARAVAN SYSTEM BECUASE I DIDNT WANT TO WASTE TIME GATHERING AND BEING A SKILLER.
Do you have thoughts or feelings regarding some of the aspects of Caravans, such as Caravan components, Glint, Commodities, Exchange Rates, etc?
IF IM WITH MY GUILD CAN YOU MAKE IT SO THAT SOME GUILD MATES CAN RIDE IN/ON CARAVAN. DO THEY ALL HAVE TO WALK ACROSS THE MAP??? MAKE IT LIKE INSTANCE HOUSING BUT WITH A SEPARATE SPACE. WGERE IF I HAVE 10 OR MORE GUILDIES PROTECTING, THEY CAN JUST HOP IN CARAVAN, THEIR CHARACTER DISAPPEARS BUT IT LOOKS LIKE WE ARE IN RIDE SO OUR SCREEN IS OVER TOP LIKE HOW STEVEN WAS RIDING IT. WHEN SOMEONE ATTACKS WE CAN ALL POP OUT LIKE "HAHA WE WERE ALL HIDING"
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
NO FIRST TIME PLAYING/INTERACTING WITH A GAME/SYSTEM LIKE THIS
BUT IF I HAD TO SAY SOMETHING HERE MAYBE MAKE 6 CATAGORIES OF GLINT. YOUR AVERAGE COMMON WOLF/BOAR=GRAY GLINT(1). FOREST BOSS LIKE KING BEAR OR WOLF PACK LEADER=BRONZE GLINT(2) DUGEON MONSTERS=SILVER GLINT(3) DUGEON BOSSES=GOLD GLINT(4) WORLD BOSSES LIKE THE CYCLOPS=PLATNIUM GLINT(5) RAID BOSSES=DIAMOND GLINT(6). THE RARER THE GLINT THE BETTER THE COMMODITY TO TRADE FOR= MORE PVP AND TRYING TO TAKE THEIR RAIR COMMODITIES.
I just realized that glint allows for uber grinding in one place and then making money by choosing completely different nodes from your farming location and making money through that.
Certificates system tied you directly to your farming location and you'd need to send your caravan from there, because that location determined your destination.
To me, Glints now encourage botting in super remote places and/or super cheap player labor for huge guilds. Definitely dislike that aspect of it and would prefer if you went back to certificates.
I just realized that glint allows for uber grinding in one place and then making money by choosing completely different nodes from your farming location and making money through that.
Certificates system tied you directly to your farming location and you'd need to send your node from there, because that location determined your destination.
To me, Glints now encourage botting in super remote places and/or super cheap player labor for huge guilds. Definitely dislike that aspect of it and would prefer if you went back to certificates.
It won't work. The issue is not the currencies, the issue is the commodities and the planned caravan system. You would still buy commodities with certificates which you would still earn on route, in random locations, on mass and when wanted.
I think Bounty Hunters should be able to return Stolen Glint to players after players have been killed and lost Glint. The Bounty Hunters can earn Glint captured from PvE found on the corrupted and have it not be called Stolen Glint. This is to balance the economy and to reduce PK tendencies who will not think twice about murder hoboing if everyone and their mum's are packing Glint which can be given to the black markets upon the theft. I kind of took the idea from @NiKr but we've worked together a lot since the stream.
It all looks good, and seems like a solid game loop.
But the cargo inventory\ materials Inventory is really off putting.
Its disappointing that you cant have more cargo in the caravan or at least stack same item in the slot.
I cant stand the Tetriz inventory but i understand you guys have made a decision.
But more space should be available by default and more total with upgraded components.
Or i see caravans being really boring and un-rewarding to attack.
Guild Request: Please ensure Legendary Glints only drop from mobs/dead players and that auto-exchange can be used downward but not upward for Legendary Glints. This is to limit the economic impact of legendary commodities and to also reward those who can kill the legendary mobs more than not.
edit: added dead players to request too. All's fair in love and war.
[*] What excites you about playing and interacting with the Caravan system?
I think the bigger picture here is the tone you set for the entire vehicle system, the physics attached to it, and how smooth it is so far. Which is really good, it means that all of the vehicle systems are going to be executed really well.
[*] Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan System Preview?
Your economy, which is a part of the caravan system, but its own system in itself needs explained a bit further.
Ideally I'd like to make sure that Glint does not impede PvP and still encourages it, there are more than one way to suffer losses and as long as the stakes are high we are good.
[*] Do you have thoughts or feelings regarding some of the aspects of Caravans, such as Caravan components, Glint, Commodities, Exchange Rates, etc?
The system is very simple economics to which a player who has no basic understanding of econ can learn it, we just need to see how it'll work out at this point.
Overall decent stream
- biome seems dense, lush and topographically interesting
- caravan looks good design wise especially with the addons/upgrades
- curious to how skins will affect its appearance considering how good the immersive design already is thematically
- caravan knockback is comical especially with the jank, not a fan of the ability overall currently.
- the rainbow glint system should be controversially interesting
- road speed boost seems logical but I like that the side paths also get it too.
-look forward to seeing some legit gameplay of caravan attackers and defenders so players can see the reality of the system
It's got me excited to try it out. Am curious to see how the "Take the stolen goods away in another Caravan" thing will work, given that there's already a bunch of enemies there who will destroy it once you pack it up.
Loved that it was on a non-Friday too, cos I can never watch it live, and don't get the time at weekends, so it means I can watch it sooner!
And as always: Steven, your outfits are awesome! Love them all. One of the best parts of your October Livestreams is guessing what you'll be dressed up as! Never change
I'm currently assuming that Caravans will be used to transport player harvested materials (or packs, made by player harvested materials), in addition to NPC mats as well, where player packs will bring more profit, if you can find the right mats with the right demand, BUT, in times of demand shortage, or if you're lazy to investigate the current markets, you can do NPC ones with lower effort on your end.
This was not shown at all, and we only saw NPC pack transport. Hopefully both are a thing. I'm pretty sure they are, can't imagine otherwise.
How do you feel about the Caravan System Preview so far?
Was about everything i expected however i feel you should have been able to cut away the tree that was blocking your path. You can already chop standing tree's, why can't we just remove it from the road?
The horse animations looked kind of funny from stop to go. However i like the realistic backing system of the caravan taking corners.
It was confusing why Stevens health jumped from 3k health to 13k when driving the caravan with no explanation.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Caravan system?
I would like to see what other things for the rest of the caravan slots you did not use can be filled with. I hope some an be found/obtained in the world outside the system.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan System Preview?
You did not show how tanky the caravan really was. I assume it is squishy or not tested? How does it do vs 5-10 players? How about more? I believe it needs to be a target but still needs to be more worthwhile then manually carrying things to trade.
Do you have thoughts or feelings regarding some of the aspects of Caravans, such as Caravan components, Glint, Commodities, Exchange Rates, etc?
I think Glint is a bit confusing when trying to explain about gold/money vs glint. This might take a tiny bit for some players to understand or realize. I think using a more familiar word like stubs or vouchers would be a better choice than glint.
Make use of more industrial style horses like clydesdales. The current horses with the huge cargo looks silly.
Caravan packs must be crafted from found materials and sold to players, not NPC
Caravans must carry packs crafted by players from materials found in the Verra, and not purchased from the NPC and sold to NPC. You find leather, fur, ore and then you craft into a pack, deliver and sell at auction-house, in your personal store, and do not sell them to NPCs.
This will create a shortage of materials and further increase the value of the cargo and gives out more gameplay tied to it.
seems like a lot of people misunderstood the livestream context about what will caravans carry - it is not just NPC made packs (commodities) - Caravans will also be widely used to transport materials gathered/processed/bought to sell to other players across the world. Trading is still a thing, we just learned about something extra.
The livestream focused on commodities which are NPC packs acquired with glint but they did Not change the system you will still be able to transport all your metal or your food/potions/fish to a different node to sell using the different market/auction houses/shops available and make some gold.
The timestamp for this information is 01:06:45 on the livestream video:
also, keep in mind that this is a very solid way to introduce an extra reliable source of income with a gold sink, if we only had player-to-player trading gold would not be removed from the economy as efficiently as with selling packs to NPCs, gold you just go from one player to another - and having enough gold sinks is essential for a solid economy in an MMO, people don't take this into consideration for some reason
seems like a lot of people misunderstood the livestream context about what will caravans carry - it is not just NPC made packs (commodities) - Caravans will also be widely used to transport materials gathered/processed/bought to sell to other players across the world. Trading is still a thing, we just learned about something extra.
The livestream focused on commodities which are NPC packs acquired with glint but they did Not change the system you will still be able to transport all your metal or your food/potions/fish to a different node to sell using the different market/auction houses/shops available and make some gold.
The timestamp for this information is 01:06:45 on the livestream video:
also, keep in mind that this is a very solid way to introduce an extra reliable source of income with a gold sink, if we only had player-to-player trading gold would not be removed from the economy as efficiently as with selling packs to NPCs, gold you just go from one player to another - and having enough gold sinks is essential for a solid economy in an MMO, people don't take this into consideration for some reason
Ugh I don't wannaaaa... fine...
No, most people did not misunderstand it, only 7% of the posts in this thread so far show even a chance of misunderstanding it.
You brought up a gold sink but this has nearly nothing to do with gold sinks, especially when this is literally making the biggest gold faucet in the game.
If you're going to argue that it's good for you and your guild, fine, but don't misrepresent other people's understanding.
What I'm concerned about: I've just seen the Q+A (I missed it last night) and the chat were saying the gold was too low. A x8 multiplier is huge for a next door node and Steven looks gleeful about 'far away nodes' and the distant 'multipliers'. Bear in mind the commodities shown were quite low level. Imagine an epic Commodity at a x8 Modifier. Then think of the epic Commodity at a higher modifier like x50 or more. It can also be performed in two directions. Its mad amounts of gold in theory. I realise the risk is increased for longer distances but the inflation in the economy will be drastic at such multipliers and new players will struggle 6 months in or less. One mistake and you'll be forever behind too. Crafters don't actually have much gold sink per say and will have huge pay outs for items based on inflationary prices anyway - I feel there's no need to inflate the gold production at a base level to flood the markets with so much gold that inflation starts at an extremely high level to begin with.
You state Glint is about 'Gold Production' but paper money causes massive inflation unlike a gold standard. You wouldn't have gold drop from mobs and then apply multipliers in an inventory. Gold investment banks do use interest but the interest rates are really minimal compared to a x8 multiplier and the x8 multiplier is the nearest multiplier possible in Ashes. The good news is balance is not yet established but you did ask for feedback on the exchange rates/glint.
How do you feel about the Caravan System Preview so far?
- Overall I enjoyed the insight into this system and how it really pays to move product either via player materials or glint/commodities and how this system . I found the bones of it in terms of travel and possible friction and fighting at play to look good in terms of gameplay loop (I will take a bit of a step and say that this is assuming the companion piece on pvp caravan information is good). I do see some issue as this system can be abused with both glint production (grinding) and the ability of coalitions absolutely shutting down parts of the server or at least create a "rich get richer" and "non power players" becoming salt miners. Now the better question is if this is intended design, as a guild of 300 people can organize and shut down wide swaths of land if there are only 1-2 avenues to alternative nodes (like the bridge). More on this below.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Caravan system?
- The Exciting bit of this is I can see at least the direction of what caravans are supposed to be and that they are attempting to create the "risk vs. reward" schema we are angling toward. The upside looks to be great with that risk being taken to move the commodities instead of just cashing in for low gold amounts. I personally like the idea of glint being a simpler system than certs as to this point it looked like certs would be "here's 700 kinds of certs for 900 types of things you can move". I am not an econ gamer, and I appreciate the simplicity but also realize that is a minority opinion. Now without A2 it's hard to see what system would have worked as the glint system basically dumbs it down to X = Y and it's just a matter of time sink to farm whatever glint you need/want which may not be a good thing but time will tell.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the
Caravan System Preview?
- The Biggest concern I have is this system seems to be so lopsided in the way of the bigger guilds/alliances as they can probably field enough firepower to shut down most transactions. If there are only two ways to head west from your node into the greater world, that's an extremely easy way to cut off all trade and ability to progress as a node/character/etc. I realize this comes with the response of "why don't you just go farm somewhere else and try caravanning somewhere else" but this is a matter of world size/player density that I can't answer confidently until A2 but I am being critical as most of us should be until we have the product in our hands.
- Another layer that excites is me that we didn't see is the ability to invest in NPC Mercs or hire additional people to assist in moving goods as I feel like this creates the situations where if you run into some PvP and the PC Merc you hired does well, it is a touch point and you can form meaningful relationships. We have not seen this in any showcase so the way that system works is "up in the air" until then. As is the way assets and income are split after a job well done or failed.
Do you have thoughts or feelings regarding some of the aspects of Caravans, such as Caravan components, Glint, Commodities, Exchange Rates, etc?
*Components * - Seems like a really cool idea of implemented well in terms of maximizing what works for you... In a world where it's just me and two of my friends trying to make money quickly and efficiently it may be in our best interest to pack light/fast to move products quickly for some cash vs. bulk caravans of 10-20 people moving a literal mountain of goods. When we see more of this it will be interesting, but from this showcase it looked like 1<2<3<4<5 in terms of tier in a flat scale so we will see.
*Glint* - As stated above, I like the idea of it as it simplifies the currency aspect of it (I literally cannot accept that this will be anything other than a currency, if this takes inventory space I will riot) but at the cost of turning this into a psuedo-minigame that is basically farm until you have x glint to turn into y product. There is the value decision tree that comes off that but it is borderline binary. as @Azherae stated somewhere deeper in this thread (at least I think it was you, sorry I am lazy). You made a decision here to trade complexity for accessibility and I am not mad at it if the other aspects pay off in terms of experience but I am see this turning into a scaling issue with large guilds and labor problems that I don't have answers to right now.
*Commodities* - I like the possible decision tree here in that you can get glint for runs like this and finding which piece of the puzzle will net a good return and how far/dangerous the journey may be as a companion piece to moving player goods (which I am hoping actually getting implemented in being requirements for building in nodes such as large caches of iron for smithy in neighboring node) as I am hoping both of those run risks/rewards in terms of favor, relationships, community vs. income.
*Exchange Rates* - Players will make things crazy because that is what they do contrary to any economic rational/experience. People who know how to play this game will make money like crazy and there will be people who create wild scenarios with no real explainable reason so it's hard to comment on this both from the perspective that the 7-8x seems crazy at a scaling level, but also the landscape will look so vastly different once players touch any of this.
I love what I see but I have one problem with this system. You leave the reward in the hands of guy who bought the caravan. People who support the caravan need to be rewarded by the game for their actions. Does not even need to be money. Exp, reputation, break on their taxes to the node. Their participation needs to have an incentive. What I am seeing will have me more often making teams to hunt caravans then protecting them.
The caravans should have bigger capacity and items should be able to be stacked. The whole team should be able to fit commodities inside each caravan so they can each earn gold. Like an instanced caravan. All these items can be dropped upon death. You should register 'Caravan Owners' prior to dispatch and the 'Caravan Owners' can add resources to said Caravan. Much like 'Caravan Drivers' list. Make the caravan have 8 people per caravan (Family Caravan System). That way you can still do Caravan Convoys but more people will profit, not just one.
How do you feel about the Caravan System Preview so far?
The presentation was good, there are a lot of intertwined systems, so it remains difficult to understand the full scope of the caravan system. I would have liked to have had a PowerPoint type presentation again to have a better overall understanding of the possibilities. Although I understand that showing too much can lead to just as much confusion as not showing enough. I found some very good ideas: The system of perils on the road, the choices that the player has to make. The transformation into a boat also seems pretty cool to me.
What I like most is that you try things that have rarely or not been done (correctly) until now in MMOs, the caravan system is a hell of a gamble and appears to be a central element in the economy, generation and sink of gold.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Caravan system?
The commercial and economic aspect in the first place and of course its ability to create "game" through interactions between players whether with mercenary or PVP systems, and then also quite simply the immersion of a journey with stages with all the problems that we may encounter, the fact of being able to experience an “Adventure”
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan System Preview?
I loved the perils system on the path, allowing for better replayability of the gameplay loop. I hope that they will be numerous and renewed gradually, and above all not predictable. I hope the seasons, day and night, and different events will have implications.
I found the trip very long, but very interesting and lively. I think that said it was a bit too long for a trip to the nearest node.
I also find that at the moment the system creates a lot of friction with many systems for the player before being able to launch their caravan as well as a lot of time.
I would have liked to feel that the system was more natural and integrated into the world, more immersive in some way. I think that certain steps could and should be simplified, made more fluid so that launching a caravan is not boring before even starting the trip.
The design of the caravans is very beautiful, I really like the fact that we have visual information on what we are transporting, our means of defense etc...
I hope that it will become more immersive, that we can feel the adventure feeling and not just taking part in a system where we spend time in a gameplay loop.
Do you have thoughts or feelings regarding some of the aspects of Caravans, such as Caravan components, Glint, Commodities, Exchange Rates, etc?
I understand the intention behind the commodities, the fact of having the glint a currency linked to the character that we can exchange for gold and encourages PVE players who farm monsters to also participate in this system. And therefore to link the acquisition of gold behind real participation in the game's systems and not just by killing monsters or selling items. I think the idea is good, but for the moment I remain doubtful about its execution. And balancing this system will be complex. I am afraid that we will end up with either a system that is overused because it is too profitable or not used at all because it is not profitable enough in terms of time investment / return on investment. The fact that there were Caravans of commodities but also of Materials/Resources was quite ambiguous at the beginning.
I like the caravan parts system. I just hope that the possibilities will be numerous and that a "Meta" will not be created too quickly.
I don't know, however, if the caravan system as it stands will allow small groups of players to be brought together in a natural way, especially if the profits are shared with the group.
I would also like to know if Glint was only obtainable by hunting monsters or if there was another way to obtain and use them?
It would have been interesting to see the differences in speed of the caravans, because this one was very slow.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
I think the best example is Final Fantasy Cristal Chronicles, which completely revolves around caravans and co-op. With dangers on the road, for example the miasma in the game where the caravan must pass to help villages survive, I think it would be interesting to look at some elements of this game and take inspiration from some things about the immersive side of the journey, and the different dangers.
PIA timesink.... don't mean to be a Debbie-downer but that's my first impression, hope to be wrong
What does PIA mean? I get conflicted reports from google. Apparently it means 'Kitchen Sink' so did you mean Kitchen Sink Time Sink? I don't believe I'm involved in a time sink. I believe the game should be social and a social caravan would be an excellent addition to the game systems. Not sure why the devs didn't design the caravan system to revolve around groups in the first place. I hope ships do revolve around groups because ships require crew and crew need to be paid too.
It feels like there will be a lot of speed-running, early in the game; Caravans with the lightest armament and the highest options for speed. Am hoping the broadcast-area for notifications about the Caravans will be broad enough.
The extended Q&A was good to include, since there might otherwise have been confusion about the reselling of goods, and in-particular the value of extinct goods.
Am really looking especially forward to testing the durability of the heavily-armored Caravans. It does seem as though a lot of goods might be more-safely moved by foot, than by Caravan - but as long as there are Node-development perks that come from completing Caravans, this will probably be enough incentive to move things by wagons.
The naming of the Caravan seemed a tad odd; Am hoping the owner of the Caravan will still be known, as the Reputation and word-of-mouth about other players will surely incite some in-fighting and incentive to try to jack particular players' Caravans.
Comments
We have caravan skins in the current shop - they don't give stats though.
This help identifies node citizen actions from a diplomatic standpoint, if your citizens keep getting attacked by people of a certain node u kinda want to know so u can do something about it via war or diplomacy
The idea of commodities is okay, the important part is them being 'unique' to the node or biome. However, it feels strange to be able to just carry all your glint elsewhere via mule/your person, and since glint is not unique to location, buy commodities at a different node to transport from there. This creates situations where you could try to go to less populated areas of the world to spend your glint and utilize caravans there for profit. This isn't necessarily bad, but takes away from game 'hubs' and makes caravan PvP harder to specifically pursue.
Lastly, beyond just the distance of the nodes and how many of that type of commodity has been sold in the last 7 days, the game should really really have a random or mayor/node driven way for certain commodities to be requested for bonus profit. This would create a gold rush sense, create demand for resources that may not have much demand normally, and create caravan PvP hotspots leading to more player friction.
We'd also like an auto-exchange functionality between the glints. So each glint has a value compared to the other glints much like the gold value. That way, purchases can be made without exact glint numbers if the subsequent expense can be covered by a different set of glints to the required glint. Change can also be given for example.
Cheers,
Neurath.
Ok, this wasn't easy to watch or to write about.
My first impressions from the showcase are that getting a caravan from point A to point B is no different from hundreds escort quests in other MMOs, except this time one player essentially becomes the NPC. These quests are notoriously boring. The major reason behind that is players aren't given means to speed the quest up or change its dynamics. Time between departure and arrival of the caravan was about 25 minutes in the showcase; in other MMOs I bang my head against the keyboard if it takes more than 5. All events, be it a wandering raid boss or a fallen tree blocking the road, seemed artificially put there for the sole purpose of creating a delay, which wouldn't matter if they created some excitement to be had, but they didn't.
Role of the driver looked even less fun. Steven's character basically became the escorted NPC and for nearly half an hour he couldn't (or chose not to) do anything else but drive or push 3 buttons whenever they came off CD. The process of upgrading the caravan itself seemed ok, much like gearing up a PC albeit with different stats, but it did little to spice up the trip in the end.
I write all this fully aware that everything is Work In Progress (tm) and we naturally didn't get to see interference of a populated world much less PVP, and dearly hope to be proven wrong in playtest. But as far as first impressions go, the actual gameplay of the caravan system seems lacking and it seems like an uphill battle to stake a significant portion of the game economy on it.
I would say the thing I could see being an issue is the whole building the caravan and the fact that it has to be done close to an outpost. Even with guards in the surrounding area camping will likely be an issue. If we take Archeage for example with the trade packs they could be crafted on land we owned and protected by placing it on that land then moving it at specific times later with a timer period. With the system you showcased there's a limited area in which the caravan can be deployed which means people can just wait in that area for anyone deploying and kill them during the time it takes to summon it. I'm not saying that I hate pvp because that's one of the main things I like in games but this would likely make me not want to run the caravan myself and rather be camping killing others for there's instead.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Caravan system?
The PVP it would have been nice to see that interaction in the live stream. Avoiding monsters is cool and all but players is where the caravan system comes alive.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan System Preview?
Just what I mentioned above about the summoning of it.
Do you have thoughts or feelings regarding some of the aspects of Caravans, such as Caravan components, Glint, Commodities, Exchange Rates, etc?
I'm kind of surprised we are mostly just buying specific materials from vendors to do the caravan system and not crafting our own items. If we could craft our own that might give us more options to deploy them in areas outside of trading posts giving more flexibility and security.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Archeage was really the only game I came in contact with the trade pack system and it was a good system up until they started turning every area into safe zones and discouraging the pvp systems that's really what lead to the downfall of the game overall. They didn't want people to have risk vs reward. But the beginning of archeage where carts had collision and you could effectively block people in and kill them for those trade packs was fun times. I don't know how collision works in ashes and whether people can block a caravan in that method but too seeing as there's off road options changes the dynamic of it more then archeage. The main issue is how to go about allowing people to deploy because the current system doesn't seem like it will work. People will likely just hang out and watch to see who's deploying and then hunt them down with a zerg of people.
College Lessons
WAS GREAT
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Caravan system?
BEING ABLE TO PARTICIPATE WITH IT WITHOUT BEING A GATHER/PROCESSOR. I JUST WANTED TO FIGHT MONSTERS AND TRAVEL THE WORLD, NOW AS IM FIGHTING MONSTERS, I CAN GATHER GLINT AND TRADE THOSE IN FOR COMMODITIES AND USE CARAVAN SYSTEM. AT FIRST I WASN'T GOING TO USE CARAVAN SYSTEM BECUASE I DIDNT WANT TO WASTE TIME GATHERING AND BEING A SKILLER.
Do you have thoughts or feelings regarding some of the aspects of Caravans, such as Caravan components, Glint, Commodities, Exchange Rates, etc?
IF IM WITH MY GUILD CAN YOU MAKE IT SO THAT SOME GUILD MATES CAN RIDE IN/ON CARAVAN. DO THEY ALL HAVE TO WALK ACROSS THE MAP??? MAKE IT LIKE INSTANCE HOUSING BUT WITH A SEPARATE SPACE. WGERE IF I HAVE 10 OR MORE GUILDIES PROTECTING, THEY CAN JUST HOP IN CARAVAN, THEIR CHARACTER DISAPPEARS BUT IT LOOKS LIKE WE ARE IN RIDE SO OUR SCREEN IS OVER TOP LIKE HOW STEVEN WAS RIDING IT. WHEN SOMEONE ATTACKS WE CAN ALL POP OUT LIKE "HAHA WE WERE ALL HIDING"
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
NO FIRST TIME PLAYING/INTERACTING WITH A GAME/SYSTEM LIKE THIS
BUT IF I HAD TO SAY SOMETHING HERE MAYBE MAKE 6 CATAGORIES OF GLINT. YOUR AVERAGE COMMON WOLF/BOAR=GRAY GLINT(1). FOREST BOSS LIKE KING BEAR OR WOLF PACK LEADER=BRONZE GLINT(2) DUGEON MONSTERS=SILVER GLINT(3) DUGEON BOSSES=GOLD GLINT(4) WORLD BOSSES LIKE THE CYCLOPS=PLATNIUM GLINT(5) RAID BOSSES=DIAMOND GLINT(6). THE RARER THE GLINT THE BETTER THE COMMODITY TO TRADE FOR= MORE PVP AND TRYING TO TAKE THEIR RAIR COMMODITIES.
Certificates system tied you directly to your farming location and you'd need to send your caravan from there, because that location determined your destination.
To me, Glints now encourage botting in super remote places and/or super cheap player labor for huge guilds. Definitely dislike that aspect of it and would prefer if you went back to certificates.
It won't work. The issue is not the currencies, the issue is the commodities and the planned caravan system. You would still buy commodities with certificates which you would still earn on route, in random locations, on mass and when wanted.
Cheers all,
Neurath.
But the cargo inventory\ materials Inventory is really off putting.
Its disappointing that you cant have more cargo in the caravan or at least stack same item in the slot.
I cant stand the Tetriz inventory but i understand you guys have made a decision.
But more space should be available by default and more total with upgraded components.
Or i see caravans being really boring and un-rewarding to attack.
edit: added dead players to request too. All's fair in love and war.
I think the bigger picture here is the tone you set for the entire vehicle system, the physics attached to it, and how smooth it is so far. Which is really good, it means that all of the vehicle systems are going to be executed really well.
Your economy, which is a part of the caravan system, but its own system in itself needs explained a bit further.
Ideally I'd like to make sure that Glint does not impede PvP and still encourages it, there are more than one way to suffer losses and as long as the stakes are high we are good.
The system is very simple economics to which a player who has no basic understanding of econ can learn it, we just need to see how it'll work out at this point.
With a the way the vehicles move? No, probably the best physics I've seen in a while. With economy? Yeah, AA.
Overall decent stream
- biome seems dense, lush and topographically interesting
- caravan looks good design wise especially with the addons/upgrades
- curious to how skins will affect its appearance considering how good the immersive design already is thematically
- caravan knockback is comical especially with the jank, not a fan of the ability overall currently.
- the rainbow glint system should be controversially interesting
- road speed boost seems logical but I like that the side paths also get it too.
-look forward to seeing some legit gameplay of caravan attackers and defenders so players can see the reality of the system
Loved that it was on a non-Friday too, cos I can never watch it live, and don't get the time at weekends, so it means I can watch it sooner!
And as always: Steven, your outfits are awesome! Love them all. One of the best parts of your October Livestreams is guessing what you'll be dressed up as! Never change
This was not shown at all, and we only saw NPC pack transport. Hopefully both are a thing. I'm pretty sure they are, can't imagine otherwise.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Caravan system?
I would like to see what other things for the rest of the caravan slots you did not use can be filled with. I hope some an be found/obtained in the world outside the system.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan System Preview?
You did not show how tanky the caravan really was. I assume it is squishy or not tested? How does it do vs 5-10 players? How about more? I believe it needs to be a target but still needs to be more worthwhile then manually carrying things to trade.
Do you have thoughts or feelings regarding some of the aspects of Caravans, such as Caravan components, Glint, Commodities, Exchange Rates, etc?
Caravans must carry packs crafted by players from materials found in the Verra, and not purchased from the NPC and sold to NPC. You find leather, fur, ore and then you craft into a pack, deliver and sell at auction-house, in your personal store, and do not sell them to NPCs.
This will create a shortage of materials and further increase the value of the cargo and gives out more gameplay tied to it.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/426665#Comment_426665
The livestream focused on commodities which are NPC packs acquired with glint but they did Not change the system you will still be able to transport all your metal or your food/potions/fish to a different node to sell using the different market/auction houses/shops available and make some gold.
The timestamp for this information is 01:06:45 on the livestream video:
also, keep in mind that this is a very solid way to introduce an extra reliable source of income with a gold sink, if we only had player-to-player trading gold would not be removed from the economy as efficiently as with selling packs to NPCs, gold you just go from one player to another - and having enough gold sinks is essential for a solid economy in an MMO, people don't take this into consideration for some reason
Ugh I don't wannaaaa... fine...
No, most people did not misunderstand it, only 7% of the posts in this thread so far show even a chance of misunderstanding it.
You brought up a gold sink but this has nearly nothing to do with gold sinks, especially when this is literally making the biggest gold faucet in the game.
If you're going to argue that it's good for you and your guild, fine, but don't misrepresent other people's understanding.
You state Glint is about 'Gold Production' but paper money causes massive inflation unlike a gold standard. You wouldn't have gold drop from mobs and then apply multipliers in an inventory. Gold investment banks do use interest but the interest rates are really minimal compared to a x8 multiplier and the x8 multiplier is the nearest multiplier possible in Ashes. The good news is balance is not yet established but you did ask for feedback on the exchange rates/glint.
- Overall I enjoyed the insight into this system and how it really pays to move product either via player materials or glint/commodities and how this system . I found the bones of it in terms of travel and possible friction and fighting at play to look good in terms of gameplay loop (I will take a bit of a step and say that this is assuming the companion piece on pvp caravan information is good). I do see some issue as this system can be abused with both glint production (grinding) and the ability of coalitions absolutely shutting down parts of the server or at least create a "rich get richer" and "non power players" becoming salt miners. Now the better question is if this is intended design, as a guild of 300 people can organize and shut down wide swaths of land if there are only 1-2 avenues to alternative nodes (like the bridge). More on this below.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Caravan system?
- The Exciting bit of this is I can see at least the direction of what caravans are supposed to be and that they are attempting to create the "risk vs. reward" schema we are angling toward. The upside looks to be great with that risk being taken to move the commodities instead of just cashing in for low gold amounts. I personally like the idea of glint being a simpler system than certs as to this point it looked like certs would be "here's 700 kinds of certs for 900 types of things you can move". I am not an econ gamer, and I appreciate the simplicity but also realize that is a minority opinion. Now without A2 it's hard to see what system would have worked as the glint system basically dumbs it down to X = Y and it's just a matter of time sink to farm whatever glint you need/want which may not be a good thing but time will tell.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the
Caravan System Preview?
- The Biggest concern I have is this system seems to be so lopsided in the way of the bigger guilds/alliances as they can probably field enough firepower to shut down most transactions. If there are only two ways to head west from your node into the greater world, that's an extremely easy way to cut off all trade and ability to progress as a node/character/etc. I realize this comes with the response of "why don't you just go farm somewhere else and try caravanning somewhere else" but this is a matter of world size/player density that I can't answer confidently until A2 but I am being critical as most of us should be until we have the product in our hands.
- Another layer that excites is me that we didn't see is the ability to invest in NPC Mercs or hire additional people to assist in moving goods as I feel like this creates the situations where if you run into some PvP and the PC Merc you hired does well, it is a touch point and you can form meaningful relationships. We have not seen this in any showcase so the way that system works is "up in the air" until then. As is the way assets and income are split after a job well done or failed.
Do you have thoughts or feelings regarding some of the aspects of Caravans, such as Caravan components, Glint, Commodities, Exchange Rates, etc?
*Components * - Seems like a really cool idea of implemented well in terms of maximizing what works for you... In a world where it's just me and two of my friends trying to make money quickly and efficiently it may be in our best interest to pack light/fast to move products quickly for some cash vs. bulk caravans of 10-20 people moving a literal mountain of goods. When we see more of this it will be interesting, but from this showcase it looked like 1<2<3<4<5 in terms of tier in a flat scale so we will see.
*Glint* - As stated above, I like the idea of it as it simplifies the currency aspect of it (I literally cannot accept that this will be anything other than a currency, if this takes inventory space I will riot) but at the cost of turning this into a psuedo-minigame that is basically farm until you have x glint to turn into y product. There is the value decision tree that comes off that but it is borderline binary. as @Azherae stated somewhere deeper in this thread (at least I think it was you, sorry I am lazy). You made a decision here to trade complexity for accessibility and I am not mad at it if the other aspects pay off in terms of experience but I am see this turning into a scaling issue with large guilds and labor problems that I don't have answers to right now.
*Commodities* - I like the possible decision tree here in that you can get glint for runs like this and finding which piece of the puzzle will net a good return and how far/dangerous the journey may be as a companion piece to moving player goods (which I am hoping actually getting implemented in being requirements for building in nodes such as large caches of iron for smithy in neighboring node) as I am hoping both of those run risks/rewards in terms of favor, relationships, community vs. income.
*Exchange Rates* - Players will make things crazy because that is what they do contrary to any economic rational/experience. People who know how to play this game will make money like crazy and there will be people who create wild scenarios with no real explainable reason so it's hard to comment on this both from the perspective that the 7-8x seems crazy at a scaling level, but also the landscape will look so vastly different once players touch any of this.
The presentation was good, there are a lot of intertwined systems, so it remains difficult to understand the full scope of the caravan system. I would have liked to have had a PowerPoint type presentation again to have a better overall understanding of the possibilities. Although I understand that showing too much can lead to just as much confusion as not showing enough. I found some very good ideas: The system of perils on the road, the choices that the player has to make. The transformation into a boat also seems pretty cool to me.
What I like most is that you try things that have rarely or not been done (correctly) until now in MMOs, the caravan system is a hell of a gamble and appears to be a central element in the economy, generation and sink of gold.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Caravan system?
The commercial and economic aspect in the first place and of course its ability to create "game" through interactions between players whether with mercenary or PVP systems, and then also quite simply the immersion of a journey with stages with all the problems that we may encounter, the fact of being able to experience an “Adventure”
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan System Preview?
I loved the perils system on the path, allowing for better replayability of the gameplay loop. I hope that they will be numerous and renewed gradually, and above all not predictable. I hope the seasons, day and night, and different events will have implications.
I found the trip very long, but very interesting and lively. I think that said it was a bit too long for a trip to the nearest node.
I also find that at the moment the system creates a lot of friction with many systems for the player before being able to launch their caravan as well as a lot of time.
I would have liked to feel that the system was more natural and integrated into the world, more immersive in some way. I think that certain steps could and should be simplified, made more fluid so that launching a caravan is not boring before even starting the trip.
The design of the caravans is very beautiful, I really like the fact that we have visual information on what we are transporting, our means of defense etc...
I hope that it will become more immersive, that we can feel the adventure feeling and not just taking part in a system where we spend time in a gameplay loop.
Do you have thoughts or feelings regarding some of the aspects of Caravans, such as Caravan components, Glint, Commodities, Exchange Rates, etc?
I understand the intention behind the commodities, the fact of having the glint a currency linked to the character that we can exchange for gold and encourages PVE players who farm monsters to also participate in this system. And therefore to link the acquisition of gold behind real participation in the game's systems and not just by killing monsters or selling items. I think the idea is good, but for the moment I remain doubtful about its execution. And balancing this system will be complex. I am afraid that we will end up with either a system that is overused because it is too profitable or not used at all because it is not profitable enough in terms of time investment / return on investment. The fact that there were Caravans of commodities but also of Materials/Resources was quite ambiguous at the beginning.
I like the caravan parts system. I just hope that the possibilities will be numerous and that a "Meta" will not be created too quickly.
I don't know, however, if the caravan system as it stands will allow small groups of players to be brought together in a natural way, especially if the profits are shared with the group.
I would also like to know if Glint was only obtainable by hunting monsters or if there was another way to obtain and use them?
It would have been interesting to see the differences in speed of the caravans, because this one was very slow.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
I think the best example is Final Fantasy Cristal Chronicles, which completely revolves around caravans and co-op. With dangers on the road, for example the miasma in the game where the caravan must pass to help villages survive, I think it would be interesting to look at some elements of this game and take inspiration from some things about the immersive side of the journey, and the different dangers.
What does PIA mean? I get conflicted reports from google. Apparently it means 'Kitchen Sink' so did you mean Kitchen Sink Time Sink? I don't believe I'm involved in a time sink. I believe the game should be social and a social caravan would be an excellent addition to the game systems. Not sure why the devs didn't design the caravan system to revolve around groups in the first place. I hope ships do revolve around groups because ships require crew and crew need to be paid too.
The extended Q&A was good to include, since there might otherwise have been confusion about the reselling of goods, and in-particular the value of extinct goods.
Am really looking especially forward to testing the durability of the heavily-armored Caravans. It does seem as though a lot of goods might be more-safely moved by foot, than by Caravan - but as long as there are Node-development perks that come from completing Caravans, this will probably be enough incentive to move things by wagons.
The naming of the Caravan seemed a tad odd; Am hoping the owner of the Caravan will still be known, as the Reputation and word-of-mouth about other players will surely incite some in-fighting and incentive to try to jack particular players' Caravans.