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Are caravans still a pvp system?

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Comments

  • ChicagoChicago Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Chicago wrote: »
    Yes i can see bigger guilds doing caravan runs together later on down the track but without days notice noone is really going to setup a raid scale event to fight them, for reference it takes hours to run through the wow classic world, try doing it with a map 4x bigger just to make it on time for a caravan attack, its logistically just not going to happen and not worth the time investment either for the mats you would recieve for winning
    Chicago wrote: »
    Also for everyone other than the most elite guilds having 10-15 people defend your caravan is just not going to happen, just imagine someone in your guild sais " hey can anyone come help me with a quick caravan run" chances are you are probably a solid 45 minute run to even get the the spot they are at you are most likely not going to get that many people helping you
    lcyh1uie8aoi.png

    It took Steven ~30 minutes to cover the distance between THE NEAREST NODES. In other words, even if your friends are on the other side of the world, unless the caravan is doing the same track Steven did - you're catching/defending your caravan easily.

    Also, I'd hope people would be more logical and would ask for help before starting the caravan. Maybe even a day before, so that their defense is more assured. But even if they don't - the world is still small enough for mounted people to get to you within reasonable time.

    The nodes were almost next to eachother though, you could be at the other end of the map or in the middle of the ocean or on another continent, unless you are already leveling close to this node it doesnt make much sense
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Chicago wrote: »
    Yes i can see bigger guilds doing caravan runs together later on down the track but without days notice noone is really going to setup a raid scale event to fight them, for reference it takes hours to run through the wow classic world, try doing it with a map 4x bigger just to make it on time for a caravan attack, its logistically just not going to happen and not worth the time investment either for the mats you would recieve for winning
    Chicago wrote: »
    Also for everyone other than the most elite guilds having 10-15 people defend your caravan is just not going to happen, just imagine someone in your guild sais " hey can anyone come help me with a quick caravan run" chances are you are probably a solid 45 minute run to even get the the spot they are at you are most likely not going to get that many people helping you
    lcyh1uie8aoi.png

    It took Steven ~30 minutes to cover the distance between THE NEAREST NODES. In other words, even if your friends are on the other side of the world, unless the caravan is doing the same track Steven did - you're catching/defending your caravan easily.

    Also, I'd hope people would be more logical and would ask for help before starting the caravan. Maybe even a day before, so that their defense is more assured. But even if they don't - the world is still small enough for mounted people to get to you within reasonable time.

    consider that steven stopped many times waiting for bucky. also, he wasnt spamming the speed boost skill. also, these werent the top caravans, they were low tier caravans. also, they just weren't rushing...

    i dont see how 3-4 people can destroy one good vehicle. and this is a good thing
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    ok so how long it should it take for 100 people attacking a caravan to destroy it?

    I think the caravan can be destroyed in very few hits once the defenders are dealt with. I liked the old system.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Chicago wrote: »
    The nodes were almost next to eachother though, you could be at the other end of the map or in the middle of the ocean or on another continent, unless you are already leveling close to this node it doesnt make much sense
    I'm not quite sure what you're talking about here.

    That picture tells you how long it takes to travel between almost the farthest points on the map. And it takes the caravan more than half that time to move between neighboring nodes.

    Any longer transfer would take longer than it would take literally anyone at any point on the map to get to that caravan before it finishes its travel.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    ok so how long it should it take for 100 people attacking a caravan to destroy it?

    I think the caravan can be destroyed in very few hits once the defenders are dealt with. I liked the old system.

    so the only way to destroy a vehicle should be after killing all the defenders?
    what if you kill half the defenders, then they come back to the fight because the respawns are close. how many times do you have to kill the same guy so that you can now destroy the caravan?
  • ChicagoChicago Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    ok so how long it should it take for 100 people attacking a caravan to destroy it?

    I dont ever think there should be 100 people attackimg a caravan but what i would like to see would be something like this,

    Whilst driving the caravan you have between 2-10 npcs that can be upgraded / bought essentially as mercs guarding your caravan, you also have say 3 friends with you and your self,

    You get attacked by a group of 5, you get out of the caravan and your caravan becomes essentially immune to damage whilst you are alive in the vinxinity, if you die yohr caravan becomes attackable after say 1 minute game time, giving you maybe enough time to get back depending on where you died and how far the graveyard is, this now becomes a fight to see who gains control of the caravan, obviously this is just one way it could work but anything seems better than you fighting in your caravan with op attacks, its boring gameplay and makes gearing for pvp less worthwhile if you are not even playing your character
  • ChicagoChicago Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Chicago wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    ok so how long it should it take for 100 people attacking a caravan to destroy it?

    I dont ever think there should be 100 people attackimg a caravan but what i would like to see would be something like this,

    Whilst driving the caravan you have between 2-10 npcs that can be upgraded / bought essentially as mercs guarding your caravan, you also have say 3 friends with you and your self,

    You get attacked by a group of 5, you get out of the caravan and your caravan becomes essentially immune to damage whilst you are alive in the vinxinity, if you die yohr caravan becomes attackable after say 1 minute game time, giving you maybe enough time to get back depending on where you died and how far the graveyard is, this now becomes a fight to see who gains control of the caravan, obviously this is just one way it could work but anything seems better than you fighting in your caravan with op attacks, its boring gameplay and makes gearing for pvp less worthwhile if you are not even playing your character

    This could be further improved on by the npcs that guard you being npcs you have met whilst in the world and helped with quests, you could also upgrade their gear and armor adding lots more fun mechanics
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    ok so how long it should it take for 100 people attacking a caravan to destroy it?

    I think the caravan can be destroyed in very few hits once the defenders are dealt with. I liked the old system.

    so the only way to destroy a vehicle should be after killing all the defenders?
    what if you kill half the defenders, then they come back to the fight because the respawns are close. how many times do you have to kill the same guy so that you can now destroy the caravan?

    I think respawns should be randomised and not close to a caravan defence. A caravan defence is not a siege. You either want a PvP event or you want a mess. Because, even if the caravan can move or be destroyed after a lot of damage people can still resurrect nearby and come and intervene again. I would state the caravan should scale to the number of people who have clicked 'Attack Caravan' - I assume the same system still applies where you choose to attack or defend but having not seen pvp yesterday I'm not certain. So, the caravan should be a scalable tank but not a weapon.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • ChicagoChicago Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Chicago wrote: »
    The nodes were almost next to eachother though, you could be at the other end of the map or in the middle of the ocean or on another continent, unless you are already leveling close to this node it doesnt make much sense
    I'm not quite sure what you're talking about here.

    That picture tells you how long it takes to travel between almost the farthest points on the map. And it takes the caravan more than half that time to move between neighboring nodes.

    Any longer transfer would take longer than it would take literally anyone at any point on the map to get to that caravan before it finishes its travel.

    Mate i dont think many people realise how long 75 minutes of straight running actually is lol it would not be worth it
  • ChicagoChicago Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    ok so how long it should it take for 100 people attacking a caravan to destroy it?

    I think the caravan can be destroyed in very few hits once the defenders are dealt with. I liked the old system.

    so the only way to destroy a vehicle should be after killing all the defenders?
    what if you kill half the defenders, then they come back to the fight because the respawns are close. how many times do you have to kill the same guy so that you can now destroy the caravan?

    You could setup your ambush so you hit them at a spot far away from the spirit healer, i understand thougj im just thinking of work arounds lol
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    consider that steven stopped many times waiting for bucky. also, he wasnt spamming the speed boost skill. also, these werent the top caravans, they were low tier caravans. also, they just weren't rushing...

    i dont see how 3-4 people can destroy one good vehicle. and this is a good thing
    How many people, on average will have those faster caravans? Also, it was an "epic" lvl caravan. Steven asked a dev which stage it was and she said 5, so I think he just misspoke with his "2nd tier".

    But even outside of that. Let's say it's 15 minutes for a fast caravan between 2 nodes. Faster caravans will have less space, which would give attackers more chances to ambush it (cause the runners would have to make several trips). Faster caravan might not have as much hp/def, which makes it easier to destroy.

    And even if all of those are not true and a tanky huge caravan can still make the trip in 10 minutes between neighboring nodes - that's still just a single node's length of travel. So unless we're getting insane multipliers on money gains - I doubt people will be running caravans between direct neighbors.

    BUT EVEN IF THAT IS THE CASE. 10 minutes is enough to cover the length of 3 nodes. With even the tiniest bit of planning or knowledge you'd be able to come hit the caravan from quite far away (especially considering the starting announcement and wait period).
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Chicago wrote: »
    Mate i dont think many people realise how long 75 minutes of straight running actually is lol it would not be worth it
    Majority of people will have mounts. Quite a few will potentially have faster mounts than Steven's estimate. And the benefit comes not only from the potential money rewards for the caravan, but also from the favor you do for the person that asked you for help.

    The game is about socializing. If you're not helping your mates when they need it - why in the hell would they ever help you?
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 2023
    NiKr wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    consider that steven stopped many times waiting for bucky. also, he wasnt spamming the speed boost skill. also, these werent the top caravans, they were low tier caravans. also, they just weren't rushing...

    i dont see how 3-4 people can destroy one good vehicle. and this is a good thing
    How many people, on average will have those faster caravans? Also, it was an "epic" lvl caravan. Steven asked a dev which stage it was and she said 5, so I think he just misspoke with his "2nd tier".

    But even outside of that. Let's say it's 15 minutes for a fast caravan between 2 nodes. Faster caravans will have less space, which would give attackers more chances to ambush it (cause the runners would have to make several trips). Faster caravan might not have as much hp/def, which makes it easier to destroy.

    And even if all of those are not true and a tanky huge caravan can still make the trip in 10 minutes between neighboring nodes - that's still just a single node's length of travel. So unless we're getting insane multipliers on money gains - I doubt people will be running caravans between direct neighbors.

    BUT EVEN IF THAT IS THE CASE. 10 minutes is enough to cover the length of 3 nodes. With even the tiniest bit of planning or knowledge you'd be able to come hit the caravan from quite far away (especially considering the starting announcement and wait period).

    she said 2 or 5. we also didnt see all the parts. they talked about parts to make it go faster on road, off road, faster in general, tankier, etc.

    and yes you can hit the caravan. thats why its a large group activity.

    iirc, there are penalties for failing when you attack a caravan as well. so people might think it twice if they dont have a good group for it.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    she said 2 or 5. we also didnt see all the parts. they talked about parts to make it go faster on road, off road, faster in general, tankier, etc.
    lqqbwk6t4v3y.png
    They are all "epic", which is the 5th tier of items.
    Depraved wrote: »
    and yes you can hit the caravan. thats why its a large group activity.

    iirc, there are penalties for failing when you attack a caravan as well. so people might think it twice if they dont have a good group for it.
    That comes down to planning and/or willingness of the attackers.

    I was just making a point that the speed of caravans is slow enough for other people to run up to it, even if they were far away. Especially if the caravan is traveling further than to the neighboring node.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Chicago wrote: »
    Not so much kill one solo but i was more under the impression that the pvp would be against the player that owns the caravan, not the player using the caravan as a vechicle with insane abilities and heals, i think it would be better if the caravan moved by its self and you needed to get a bunch of friends to help protect it or hire mercs ( other players) to do so
    Um. As we saw in the demo, the expectation is that there will a player driving the Caravan and there will be players defending the Caravan from PvE threats and from PvP threats.

    How long it should take 100 people to destroy a Caravan depends on the defense systems on the Caravan and how many players are defending the Caravan. As well as level discrepancies.

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Majority of people will have mounts. Quite a few will potentially have faster mounts than Steven's estimate. And the benefit comes not only from the potential money rewards for the caravan, but also from the favor you do for the person that asked you for help.
    Yep. I was wondering how combat Mounts would factor in while I was watching the demo.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Apparently the pulsar was bugged hence the spam. I don't have an issue with the pulsar after hearing about the bug. I thought the spam was ridiculous but if there will be a cool down I don't have an issue.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Chicago wrote: »
    It is often mentioned when people ask about world pvp and think the corruption system is a bit harsh that it wont matter because we have all these other pvp systems in game to work with, viewing the caravans today i did like the look of them it seems fun but also seems like nothing more than a dulled up daily quest you would find in bfa, i wish intrepid could have gone into some more detail with the pvp side of caravans as that is one of the main attractions for most people, also setting up a trap in the road with a couple of your buddies seems a bit lame now too when caravans are literally mini bosses with huge heals and an aoe blast wave that pretty much makes it impossible to take one down solo lol, domt get me wrong everything visually looked great and for the most part it looked fun enough to atleast do a few times but as always with these streams there are just more questions left un answered 😪

    w03aab4murcc.png
  • edited November 2023
    @Chicago even for your personal caravan.. you become the caravan so it replaces the player entity in a way. Just like when you mount up, you essentially become the mount with your character piloting it.

    and yes the speed for travel time depending on route does seem like a lot, but it would also be twice that with a round trip if you needed to caravan back as well lol.

    This is why it's important to create a supply chain across the nodes.

    Travel to more practical nodes and make trades generally within your relative safety scope.

    Using a linear example:

    node A and node D need things from each other, the nodes in between will be your supply chain primaries if you don't want to directly travel to node D.. Check out node B, node C etc. Closer to node D the more affordable but higher "risk". Node D would equally be between A and G. Just a way to scale value and risk. So if A and G need stuff from each other, node D would be their half way affordable value.
  • I will say, if you dont want to spend 2.5 hours travelling in a caravan with high risk to save yourself 100 glint then go farm glint and do closer routes. Essentially accomplish the same thing.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    And even if all of those are not true and a tanky huge caravan can still make the trip in 10 minutes between neighboring nodes - that's still just a single node's length of travel. So unless we're getting insane multipliers on money gains - I doubt people will be running caravans between direct neighbors.

    Yes, I think that's the key element: purpose vs. profitability. The showcase did not present only the caravan system, it was also about the glint (hunting certificates) to gold conversion, and how the two are working together. But they are systems on their own, players can use one without the other being involved.

    I think Azherae was talking about this in the official thread, the rate at which one could farm glint. If you can farm more glint for a local sell and make more gold than you would by taking the same time to move the local commodities elsewhere, it's not worth the risks and investments in a caravan. If the main goal is to make gold out of commodities, long distance caravans should have rewards worth all the risks.*

    But there is also room for the short distance moving of goods. If they're not commodities but players made goods, resources for a node upgrade, raw material for processing where the proper stations is located, etc. Harder to stumble upon maybe, but much more profitable. Players will figure it out.

    * I envision epic cross continental treks, stretched over multiple play sessions, to deliver what was only a common commodity in one part of the world, but quite exotic on the opposite end of the world.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Chicago wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Devs know what they are doing and looks good, some of the feed back i see in this thread is kind of weird. Enen more so wanting to fight it with 2-3 people....

    Well think about it mate, for comparison the world size is 4x bigger than the wow classic world, there is no means of relevent fast travel and for the most part the only way youre going to be seeing caravans is if you randomly stumble into one, i doubt people will regularly be running around the world with 15 other people with them so yeah caravans are going to be majorly small scale skirms,

    Yes i can see bigger guilds doing caravan runs together later on down the track but without days notice noone is really going to setup a raid scale event to fight them, for reference it takes hours to run through the wow classic world, try doing it with a map 4x bigger just to make it on time for a caravan attack, its logistically just not going to happen and not worth the time investment either for the mats you would recieve for winning

    The point is to give players a chance so they aren't ' zerged 24/7. They aren't creating the game to scare people off of it and make everything annoying. If you are scouting caravans you will know the event which gives you time to know there are some you can attack. This is why there is no fast travel so you can just instant travel and gank them.

    For pvp and their game what they have shown is what needed to be designed from look on paper atleast. It is their way of creating these kinds of pvp events without it being one sided for attackers.

    I will be running around with a guild so it will be much more than 15 people....
  • MilotrixMilotrix Member, Founder, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    So it sounds like you guys didn't play Archeage which had a similar system. You had a cart, you have commodities that you fill your cart with and you transport it from location to location... except Archeage had factions, so as long as you were within your own faction region you were generally safe.

    And here's the thing, if enemy faction finds you, and attack you, it was very hard to defend, the cart didn't have much defense, or skills and if you get attacked, you often lose your commodities.... and this is in a game with factions with much of the map being safe areas.

    On top of this, there were groups of people and even a faction completely dedicated to pvp and looting other people's commodities... because quite frankly it's pretty fun.

    Meanwhile however, Archeage doesn't have factions, there are no safe areas, anyone can attack you, and they can attack you anywhere....And I guarantee you that there will be many people who will dedicate their gameplay to be "pirates", to find and attack people's caravans... and unlike in Archeage, in AOC they will be able to do this anywhere and everywhere....

    So of course in Archeage the caravan needs to be tankier, it needs skills like heals etc etc because it is going to need it.... mind you what you saw in the showcase is just preliminary works, they did say that it's all still a work in progress and the heals/armor etc can change if it's too strong.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Milotrix wrote: »
    So it sounds like you guys didn't play Archeage which had a similar system. You had a cart, you have commodities that you fill your cart with and you transport it from location to location... except Archeage had factions, so as long as you were within your own faction region you were generally safe.

    And here's the thing, if enemy faction finds you, and attack you, it was very hard to defend, the cart didn't have much defense, or skills and if you get attacked, you often lose your commodities.... and this is in a game with factions with much of the map being safe areas.

    On top of this, there were groups of people and even a faction completely dedicated to pvp and looting other people's commodities... because quite frankly it's pretty fun.

    Meanwhile however, Archeage doesn't have factions, there are no safe areas, anyone can attack you, and they can attack you anywhere....And I guarantee you that there will be many people who will dedicate their gameplay to be "pirates", to find and attack people's caravans... and unlike in Archeage, in AOC they will be able to do this anywhere and everywhere....

    So of course in Archeage the caravan needs to be tankier, it needs skills like heals etc etc because it is going to need it.... mind you what you saw in the showcase is just preliminary works, they did say that it's all still a work in progress and the heals/armor etc can change if it's too strong.

    Farming with a Caravan for the glint crates will broadcast the location to all nearby people. The PvP will mean no flagging protections if we're attacked. No corruption protection in the farm zones and one person in the group unable to dismount (at least steven never dismounted). We really need to be able to dismount lol.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • DemidreamerDemidreamer Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I was sort of hoping for an ambush team of developers to come leaping out of the woods attacking the sandal man's party at the fallen tree; again after/during the encounter with skeletons just before he made it to town. Makes me wonder if players will be able to construct barriers in the road to buy time for a waylay.
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    Chicago wrote: »
    It is often mentioned when people ask about world pvp and think the corruption system is a bit harsh that it wont matter because we have all these other pvp systems in game to work with, viewing the caravans today i did like the look of them it seems fun but also seems like nothing more than a dulled up daily quest you would find in bfa, i wish intrepid could have gone into some more detail with the pvp side of caravans as that is one of the main attractions for most people, also setting up a trap in the road with a couple of your buddies seems a bit lame now too when caravans are literally mini bosses with huge heals and an aoe blast wave that pretty much makes it impossible to take one down solo lol, domt get me wrong everything visually looked great and for the most part it looked fun enough to atleast do a few times but as always with these streams there are just more questions left un answered 😪

    1. How to solo a caravan
    You don't, it's a group (8 players) oriented game and caravans from a PvP perspective are an objective for groups. And obviously since a caravan in most cases will have bodyguards expecting that to be an objective for a solo highwayman is out of scope IMO.

    2. Caravan too strong?
    Balancing begins in the Alpha but will only be finalized during the Beta, so I think we can expect that a group of 4 will ultimately be able to take on the smaller caravans. But if someone puts in the effort to create an expensive upgraded caravan vehicle with these magical artifacts and so on, I would hope they don't break easily because a caravan destroyed means all or a lot of its components be lost. So with rising investment costs players have to make to build a vehicle, it is to be expected that the loot also becomes worth the effort to take it down. After all nobody will risk their super expensive caravan wagon to transport half a cup of salt. I think this will ultimately be the balancing factor for the "defense team" during caravan missions.

    3. Boring objective, boring chore
    If you think that Intrepid has shown us all the possible events and obstacles a caravan may encounter and you plan on just taking one route every time because you gather the same goods all the time to the same places, sure, might get a bit dull. But that sounds like a player decision rather the fault of the ones setting up the system.

    If I rember correctly Steven mentioned during the bit about land to sea transistion that there will be another caravan showcase which will show this transition, which would also give the opportunity to take a look at the PvP interaction. So far I personally am quite satisfied with the progress.

    But that's me - what did you expect to see to not think that the caravans were boring daily chores?
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
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