Hello ! And thank you for reading me (if you do) i may edit my post later to add some thing after a full rewatch.
Overall, I was quite pleasantly surprised by this month’s stream.
A few remarks before getting to the heart of the matter:
- The night was much more enjoyable, I really liked the contrast and especially the exterior lights like the fireflies, the shooting stars, the plants and the rocks, really very good work and I hope that you will continue this approach to the sources bright / indirect illumination. But we need torches ! it would add a nice RP / Immersion with the darker nights and the player need to choose between having a large lighten area and be visible for PVP players and predators, or do'nt have it and be sneaky without the enhanced vision.
- Rock physics was also a very good point.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Artisanship system?
I think what I like most about crafts is the feeling of progress and reward for hard work. To build something with my hands, to take pride in it, to say to ourselves that we have done something unique. Finding and obtaining materials must be an adventure. And that the transformation and creation of the final item retains a dose of suspense: Will it be common? or will it be a magnum opus? I think a player's identity and the effort they put into their work should be felt in addition to their possible chance of finding rare materials, or not.
How do you feel about the full-cycle of Artisanship shown during the November livestream?
I found it Classic, with some interesting ideas that I find for the moment not developed enough or quite simply that we do not have the full spectrum of possibilities.
I found the harvesting part very interesting, but it's the fact that the world is alive and resources are managed according to the day night cycle, I hope we will have iterations on these systems for example plants growing only in the rain or storm, others in the snow etc.
I like the “Fuel” aspect but it would be interesting if certain objects required specific fuels or if certain types of fuel had greater possible yields, etc.
Strangely for the moment it is the creation of the final object that I found the least interesting as it stands. I like the idea of being able to use higher quality items to increase the tier of the item created, and it's a good idea that I think should be kept, but that said it would be interesting to be able to influence the object in other ways, for example by substituting materials with another, this would make it possible to create a different sub-statistic, or to orient the object in a different direction, etc.
But what disappointed me the most is that after almost an hour of live, the creation of the object which is supposed to be the final step and the culmination of this gameplay loop ends with an automatic craft which lasts two seconds... I didn't find it adequately represented the accomplishment of the player's job. I would have appreciated that the player had more interaction with the system, had more control, that he could add his two cents somewhere other than by upgrading the recipe. For the rest I think that it can help with a visual staging or a more interactive user interface with crafting animations perhaps, but since this falls outside the scope of an alpha this point remains secondary.
What is your impression of the dynamics shown with gathering? (E.g. Nightstone being invisible during the day, and visible at night)
I think it's awesome honestly. As said above, I hope you can adapt the system with lots of other variables related to the weather, the season, etc. Super cool.
What is your impression of the crafting portion of the livestream? (E.g. Using fragments of various rarities to affect the stats of the item)
Same as what I answered above:
Strangely for the moment it is the creation of the final object that I found the least interesting as it stands. I like the idea of being able to use higher quality items to increase the tier of the item created, and it's a good idea that I think should be kept, but that said it would be interesting to be able to influence the object in other ways, for example by substituting materials with another, this would make it possible to create a different sub-statistic, or to orient the object in a different direction, etc.
But what disappointed me the most is that after almost an hour of live, the creation of the object which is supposed to be the final step and the culmination of this gameplay loop ends with an automatic craft which lasts two seconds... I didn't find it adequately represented the accomplishment of the player's job. I would have appreciated that the player had more interaction with the system, had more control, that he could add his two cents somewhere other than by upgrading the recipe. For the rest I think it can help with a visual staging or a user interface.
Personally, I think that the "Grandmaster" title should only be allowed for one profession, not two. How many grandmasters are skilled to that level in two completely different professions in real-life or fictional settings? Grandmaster, to me, means that you have dedicated your entire self to a single craft in order to earn that title and the quality of what you can produce represents that dedication to your craft.
I understand people want things to be easy for their single character to experience as much of the game as possible, but by doing so you are only taking away the sense of accomplishment from those who wish to dedicate their time to mastering a trade skill. I don't want to spend my time studying a skill and its impact on the economy of the node I'm tied to, only to be one of thousands because crafting has become a novelty and easily accessible to everyone.
Crafting should be just as much as a time-sink / rewarding experience as leveling a job class.
I just want to add that I *adored* the beautiful backgrounds you guys added to the crafting bags and skill tree... I really hope you guys expand on that for the general UI as I am not a fan of the sci-fi grey theme....
As always, your game looks amazing and I cannot wait til A2!!!!
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Artisanship system?
I like the variation and dynamic aspect of it, it looks interesting and exciting to try out. I like the pvp potential of it, that if you die, you drop your mats. I like that there’s no “weight” capacity, as this in my experience is mostly just annoying.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Artisanship Preview?
My main concern is regarding the fact that you need to have a freehold to have access to highest crafting/processing, though I am not saying that is is bad in itself, in fact, I like that it is this way, but rather that we just don’t know how many freeholds there will be available, and so will there be enough freeholds for everyone who wants to craft/process max level things?
How do you feel about the full-cycle of Artisanship shown during the November livestream?
I think it was great.
What is your impression of the dynamics shown with gathering? (E.g. Nightstone being invisible during the day, and visible at night)
I really like this aspect, it gives more depth to the game. The only thing I will add is that wolves typically hunt in packs, not individually. I really liked that those spiders in the previous livestream didn’t attack straight away, I felt that was more realistic, and so in keeping with the realism of that, I think certain animals such as wolves should hunt in packs, rather than individually.
What is your impression of the crafting portion of the livestream? (E.g. Using fragments of various rarities to affect the stats of the item)
I think it was great, I really liked the aspect of material rarity affecting the stats of the crafted item.
Other thoughts:
1) I think the game should have *some* degree of instant travel. Perhaps portals between the major cities, aside from scientific nodes. Considering the large scale of the world, if you are seeking a certain type of material that can only be found in certain locations, but then your freehold happens to be very far from those certain locations, it would make it quite difficult. Some degree of instant travel will also be important for the fact that some materials are only available during the night, which means if I have to spend a long time getting to a particular location, I will miss out significantly.
2) Will we perhaps have a harth stone to recall to our freehold?
3) I personally don’t enjoy gathering, I participate in it mostly out of need/necessity, but I generally don’t enjoy it. When I played Archeage, I liked that I could build a farm that allowed me to have plots that I could gather a mass of materials from with a single click. So will AOC have something similar in freeholds? Perhaps some degree of automation? Perhaps you could hire workers on your freehold? Or something to that degree? Something that would still allow you to participate in artisanship in some capacity (not necessarily the best/highest capacity), but still some, for those who don’t enjoy gathering. I know I could just focus on crafting, but if I am buying all my materials, then that can be quite expensive. Then again, as mentioned previously, we don’t have all the details regarding how everything will work.
4) In other mmos I’ve played, the people who reach highest level of crafting first, tend to dominate the market. Additionally, bots tend to dominate gathering which significantly reduces the cost of gatherable materials. How will AOC allow more casual players to participate in crafting in a meaningful way, that still allows them to make a profit from it? And how will AOC prevent bots from over-saturating the market with materials. Just something to think about.
Everething looks good so far
please don't do craft like in archeage where you need to gather 200 000 lumber(basic material) on 1 staff that equivalent of 2000 builded houses in openworld
Much more ineresting to gather rare materials than gather 200 000 basic ones
Had a second thought. If I remember correctly the artisan "gameplay" layer was only for crafting however, after watching the physics for the mining (A+ btw) I feel like there's a great opportunity for a gameplay layer for gathering too. Adding in a step where you have to check the broken pieces for extra might be fun. Imagine your ore breaks into pieces. You get your ore as normal. But if you choose to you can check the individual pieces for those rare materials. Maybe a quick flash of light as it breaks to give you a hint. Now also imagine said ore is on a cliff side. You break it up and get your ore and one of the pieces sparkles in the light as it rolls away. Then it rolls off the cliff. Now you have an adventure to go get that piece.
Checking the ore could even have layers to it. You could pick up the ore with the ruby in it for speed however it takes up a larger slot in your bag and can have less stacks. If you take the time to do a little mini game and remove the ruby it takes a little more time but the slot size in the bag is smaller and can take more stacks
Really love the direction for this view of the early gathering and crafting.
Excited to test in Alpha and see if it feels balanced.
Nighttime looked great! I do agree with others that there might need to be a slider for darkness and shadow intensity.
Loved the idea that all the base gatherables make up the main "look" of the world and the rarer stuff will pop up based on game world state.
I saw the Armor sets tab in the UI and would love to know more about that!
Bags look like they are going in the right direction. I was worried on first reveal, but they are growing on me now.
Processing looks great. I like that it's a timer based system as opposed to the active gathering, or the minigame crafting. Passive processing. feels like it fits right in.
I know people are upset about the NPC processor, but I think it's fine. Maybe just change the text to indicate that it's your "Worker's level" or something like that? It's a game after all. XD
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LethalityMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So, I have many thoughts on this topic...
But one thing I'd ask or like to explore more is the idea of "Selectable" (optional) items and how a player might determine what to select, if anything.
Will it be a case where "Oak" is always sought after by crit builds? Or "Maple" is always sought after by magic dot builds?
In other words, if they apply directly to 'stats' is it really giving us a choice?
I think I'd prefer another layer on resources, where they might have their own properties (ala SWG) where my choice of material to use isn't tied so closely to a narrow combat purpose. etc
First, I think it's worth taking a step back and express how pleasing it is to see Ashes taking greater shape as a whole. The darker nights improve the atmosphere, and the world seems more alive with each demo. Also, thank you for showing the end-to-end loop in one go; that was super helpful.
A few observations:
Gathering:
- My observations are biased here since I'm more interesting in gathering
- We've known about gatherers crafting their own tools for some time, but seeing it was helpful. My only concern here is creating too much interdepenency at lower levels for tool mats
- The gathered resource decomp animations look terrific. The physics match the terrain grade, the timing of the despawn is good
- The crafting bags are clever. I REALLY like the addition of shape and stack size for bag to resource matching. This creates a tradeoff when we're out in the wild and find something super-interesting to mine.
- I like the threshold promotions (e.g. beginner to journeyman)
- Overall, gathering 'feels' the most polished of the 3 artisan legs
Processing / Crafting:
- The NPC processing was handy, particularly when there are multiple things to do elsewhere.
- The interaction between gathering and processing felt intuitive and organic
- Crafting (i.e. assembly) was pretty straight-forward - I liked the blend of higher quality mats on the end result of the item - before crafting.
- I'm glad there will be access to different types of processing (node level and freehold level) so the crafting economy isn't pinched in the middle
A couple of suggestions:
1. A passive skill for gatherers that allows for greater carrying capacity at higher certification level and/or when multiple (or all) bags are of a certain resource type. That is a master lumberjack with all dedicated lumber bags can carry more lumber than a beginning lumberjack.
2. Add some form of progress bar / timer for processing so you can be efficient with time (e.g. go make some more coffee).
1. A passive skill for gatherers that allows for greater carrying capacity at higher certification level and/or when multiple (or all) bags are of a certain resource type. That is a master lumberjack with all dedicated lumber bags can carry more lumber than a beginning lumberjack.
This here would usually be the typical Place where i would mention and offer the "passive Skill" of Friendship and Team-Work, no "Power-of-Friendship"-Pun intended,
but i realise what you mean. I could imagine that such a Skill would be sooner or later in the Skilltree for Lumberjacking, when You reach Apprentice or Higher than that. Or maybe an Item like an ExtraBag You can carry later on - and for some Reason not right away when You start as a Novice. (lol)
This here would usually be the typical Place where i would mention and offer the "passive Skill" of Friendship and Team-Work, no "Power-of-Friendship"-Pun intended,
but i realise what you mean. I could imagine that such a Skill would be sooner or later in the Skilltree for Lumberjacking, when You reach Apprentice or Higher than that. Or maybe an Item like an ExtraBag You can carry later on - and for some Reason not right away when You start as a Novice. (lol)
Fair enough. I just think focused expertise can have a tangible benefit.
I really hope that you would implement some sort of mini-game on the crafting and processing steps.
Pressing a button on a UI window to start a queue where you yourself do nothing but wait is not fun gameplay.
I would suggest making the player character have do the animations that you showed the NPC's doing.
Then in order to advance the progress meter, you would have the player do a simple mini-game mechanic.
Swinging their mouse back and forth when they are de-barking lumber for example.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Artisanship system?
I was really excited to see the artisan loop had more of a survival/crafting feel to it. To me those types of games have a superior crafting loop. Meaning, crafting tools and equipment to harvest material to process over time to craft better tools and equipment, is just more fun to me than buying my harvesting tool and drag/drop crafting materials until it's time to upgrade my tier.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Artisanship Preview?
As above, I was really excited about the overall loop. I think this style of artisan loops that I've seen more traditionally in survival/sandbox games makes for a more engaging experience. My concern is that moving from 22 to novice to 5 apprentice artisan paths might feel restrictive, but that's an easy fix in testing.
How do you feel about the full-cycle of Artisanship shown during the November livestream?
It was great! I saw some comments saying it seems like a waste of time. Please ignore these. I am the type of player who plays games exclusively to craft, and this is the type of system I am looking to engage with. Please do not simplify this for more raid/PvP oriented players.
What is your impression of the dynamics shown with gathering? (E.g. Nightstone being invisible during the day, and visible at night)
I really like the idea that time and place matters. From the livestream, so only Twitch resolution, the material was a bit hard to differentiate at night.
What is your impression of the crafting portion of the livestream? (E.g. Using fragments of various rarities to affect the stats of the item)
Love it! I am thrilled at the idea that a single recipe can produce custom results depending on the play style of the customer I am trying to accommodate as a crafter. If you could double down on this mechanic in some way, maybe higher tier artisans can unlock bonus optional slots to produce even more unique combinations, I would never leave my shop.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Artisanship system?
I really appreciate the attention to detail that the development team has given to the Artisanship system. From the gather animations to the flexibility in adding extra reagents for additional recipe customization, its clear that the team is passionate about their work!
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Artisanship Preview?
One of my biggest concerns about the crafting system shown was the reveal of processing queues. While I understand the desire to limit the supply and influx of processed goods, I can foresee several potential problems with the way processing queues are currently being handled.
If processing times are short, such that the total queue time is around 5-15 minutes, then the limited queue size will place people in an awkward situation where they don't have enough time to go and do anything meaningful before the queue needs to be refreshed. Instead, people will most likely be forced to sit around afk in town while they wait for their processing timer to finish.
If the total queue times instead have a moderate length, let's say somewhere between 1-12 hours, then that puts crafters in an awkward position as well. That's enough time to have a meaningful gameplay loop before players need to come back to town to refresh their queues, but problems arise when players aren't actively playing. I think many players will feel obligated to login every few hours to refresh their queues.
Ideally, queues should be long enough that they don't need to be refreshed until players would naturally start their next play session. I think that logging in once per day is a reasonable requirement for players. Therefore, I think processing queues should be able to last at least 24 hours.
Moreover, long queues could actually create some interesting gameplay. To overcome long queue times, crafters will be encouraged to explore the world and visit as many nodes as possible, starting new queues in each location. To help facilitate this, it would be helpful to have UI elements that help players track the status of their processing queues across every node and/or freehold.
What is your impression of the dynamics shown with gathering? (E.g. Nightstone being invisible during the day, and visible at night)
I think the dynamic gathering system is really interesting, and I hope that this is taken even further than what was shown. With 2 moons, there are tons of possibilities for various secrets, events, and gatherables depending upon each moons' state in their unique lunar cycles. Everyone knows that werewolves only come out when there's a full moon, but what monster comes out when when you have 2 full moons???
What is your impression of the crafting portion of the livestream? (E.g. Using fragments of various rarities to affect the stats of the item)
I share some of the concerns that other have mentioned about having crafting levels for each recipe. My biggest concern is that learning new recipes for end products (e.g. swords, armor, etc.) will feel less exciting. I really don't want to be in a position where I learn a new recipe and my first thought is, "If I just craft this sword 50 times to level the recipe fully, I might be able to replace my current weapon." Ideally, recipe XP shouldn't make gear more powerful. Instead, it should either reduce crafting cost or processing time. That way, mastering recipes is rewarding, but doesn't kill the excitement of crafting a new item for the first time.
My other concern is that as people attempt to level recipes, or their craft for that matter, the auction house will be flooded with gear and other goods. In other MMOs, I've often felt that my efforts to level crafting professions were undermined because not only I could easily purchase anything that I was able to craft, but prices were so low that it was often more expensive to craft the items myself. I recommend making all crafted end products bind-on-pickup by default. And instead, offer crafters the option to add a special reagent if they want to make a tradable version.
Really liked the stream, lots of cool info and updates.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Artisanship Preview?
Night is a bit too dark, especially areas with shadows. I'm not sure I can enjoy exploring at night. Seeing something interesting in the distance makes me want to go explore that area, but seeing an opaque area of shadow doesn't.
Shadows on characters makes it difficult to see/appreciate their gear. I don't play survival games, but for an MMO, I'd rather have better visibility than realistic darkness.
What is your impression of the dynamics shown with gathering? (E.g. Nightstone being invisible during the day, and visible at night)
It's good to provide resource options at night, but it sounds like the regular, non-glowing resources are still around? My concern is the shadows at night are going to inhibit players' ability to search for those resources.
I was more looking forward to see the mini game layer you mentioned while crafting a sword player need actually hammer the sword into a straight line. We didn’t get to see that this time, it’s ok. I quite like that the concept about village focus on massive production freehold is focus on quality more than quantity if I didn’t get it wrong. I’m not artisan type of player but I feel this is a good start point.
I understand the concept to fulfill the fantasy weapon in game world but I still want to say few things about your weapon design. The swords you showed looks great even though the bigger one has a asymmetrical hand guard usually hand guards are symmetrical. It’s more common to see asymmetrical hand guard on knife but it’s not a big deal. The short bow is not good. The string seems too short which bending limbs already too much by just strung the bow. You will lose a big part of strength from the limbs because the limbs are already compressed a lot by just strung. It also makes brace height too high and max draw length too short which means the distance for limbs to work on arrow is very short aka wrong string is wasting the strength of the bow and potentially can damage the bow. Oh, and the string position is also wrong is makes the limb tip/limb ear/bow ear/siyah(I don't know what you called it) not only meaningless but also adding more weight for the limbs need to push while shooting arrow which means less efficient. There are a lot bow maker or people do review video about bows that you can find on youtube and internet, please take your time before you design the bow.
I know this isn't the topic of discussion but I'm really excited about the 'game layer' for crafting. I believe people are running with the idea that it will only be active when completing a 'rank up' quest for your profession. I however, really love the idea of skill based crafting. I don't have magical ideas for all the professions since I think each should be unique. Specifically for the armor and weapon smithing, if there was an opportunity with each craft to 'attempt' a skill based craft then I'd love it!
In my chaotic mess of a brain.
I would have it as something you can opt into, not mandatory by any means. If you chose to opt in and attempt the skill challenge, there's no punishment for failing. The item remains the same as it is with increases from ingredients as normal.
You would have three attempts at this skill challenge, with each attempt you receive results based on your performance, with each attempt you forgo your previous results.
The results you achieve will reward you with different results. There could be a flavor text on the item viewable by the owner that could state "Nightblade Longsword crafted by LordSteven". if you perform well you could have the weapon or armor fall into categories of Normal, well crafted, flawless, and perfect. The flavor text changing to, "Flawless Nightblade Longsword crafted by (Master / Grandmaster Smith) LordSteven".
These different levels could offer minor improvements like, 1 strength, some more durability, or something else minor or major depending on variables and balancing. With proficiency in the armor or weapon type being crafted, it could make the game slightly easier to succeed.
The game layer in question that I would like to see and would enjoy using would be something akin to a timing game. Each hammer blow falling into a rhythm. Similar to games like dead by day light with starting generators. The inspiration I personally pull from is Outlast Trials, the arm wrestling lobby mechanic. It was very satisfying to me and gave a rush when I got it right and I got better with practice. With increased proficiency, the areas to click on can become gradually larger. Feeling the rush of getting a perfect score and seeing an item say "Perfect crafted by you" and having that item forever have your name on it would give a lot of value and pride to the profession.
I know this might deter people from smithing. I hope that's not the case since you can still make good items with proper and rare materials, and it wouldn't be something that people couldn't improve at either. If you spend the time to raise a proficiency and some practice doing it, I don't see why anyone of any age couldn't achieve a perfect weapon craft!
I personally believe that adding some form of skill base to crafting will make people crave a good blacksmith even if they're just starting out. It would give value to people who don't have a lot of time to get grandmaster in the first month. People would still value smiths that have experience, and value new smiths that have skill, and both would make you a treasure.
Having the best materials would still have a better item as the outcome, but a skilled and experienced smith with quality items can make a treasure!
I hope this idea could excite some people like it does with me because I really really love this idea!
Thanks!
P.S. I loved the stream! The colors of glowing stuff at night was a bit much for me and i wish resources weren't neon sign screaming at me, it'd be different if it was the whole environment. The way things pop out is too unnatural for my taste.
The sounds of chopping trees sounds wrong to me as well.
Artisanship and professions has so much potential in Vera, and in alot of ways you guys seem to be headed in the right direction with alot of things (aaand a few others not so much )
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Artisanship system?
One of the most exiting things is really the layout of your gathering section of the inventory. The different Tetris-themed bags for materials, offering differing properties and benefits are super awesome, and the visuals of the system is the best I've ever seen. The themed background for each section is down-right beautiful, and the fact that every material has a bigger visual than just a little square in 100 slot bag is really neat, and it just motivates you more to go out and find rare gem-stones when you can open your bag and see how big and shiny they are looking! Great idea and even better execution; Well. Done.
The fact that you can have every profession to a certain degree is really neat! You get to try everything, and can gather a bit of everything on your adventures in Vera - but you can't master them all; you have to think about what you want and then specialize in that direction (which you then later can change if you want to try something new -which is also really neat)! It's great way to combine things like WoW and SWTOR where you can only have 2 major professions and games like ESO and Final Fantasy where you can basicly master everything if you want to spend the time doing so.
Profession gear?! Nuff' Said. Jokes aside, the idea of having profession gear that you can choose to "toggle" on for visual apperance just makes for such an immersive experience and really takes you into games like Stardew Valley or Fantasy Life where your professions are everything to you; it's just a good idea both for stat-points and for the player-experience.
The seasonal / time-based dynamics of materials only being visible during day time / night time is sooo nice. And you can really take that fare with the way you guys are handling seasons! There could winter / summer materials - and perhabs even extend it to not just gathering but the rest of the artisanship! It would make alot of sense if the nightblade required the pitch-black of night in order to come to life on the anvil
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Artisanship Preview?
I've mainly focused on the positive things above, so I'll try to focus this question on the more concerning aspects
Tool-durability with breakage feels bad. It feels like a huge restriction on gathering, and to be honest; there are enough of those as it is... you can loose your hard work to other players... you have to manage your bag-space (which is really cool btw - but still a restriction!)... It just almost seems like gathering becomes something you're getting punished for pursuing, and that's a real shame.
Have you thought about what you guys will do about crafting multiples of the same recipe? Let's say you need to make 20 or something of the same recipe - do you need to re-fuel between each of those, or will there be some sort of system in place to handle that?
- How do you feel about the full-cycle of Artisanship shown during the November livestream?
Really neat to see a real example of a full cycle, but honestly a bit of a let-down to see that it isn't the player who actually perfoms the different stages of processing and crafting... You venture out and gather raw materials with your own hands, and then you return to the city-node and basicly ask an NPC nicely to do the rest of the job for you. Kind of a bummer to be a grand-master of asking an NPC smith to make you the biggest baddest broadsword in all of the land...
What is your impression of the crafting portion of the livestream? (E.g. Using fragments of various rarities to affect the stats of the item)
The idea of having special affix-items you can use to boost the rarity or power of an item is really a fun idea. I've earlier written a hot-take on the "rare-loot discussion" about a Vera without the possibility of getting gear from mobs; they can only drop you affixes and other gathering materials you can use to craft better gear with. This might be a bit too much, but the idea of killing a dragon and then instead of getting a magical sword from it, you can take a claw and a tooth and make a magical sword from those instead is kind of appealing! You could even just have a recipe for a broadsword where you would use normal iron and it would look like an iron sword, but if you used a dragon-claw it would change both the rarity but also apperance of the sword to really look like a Dragonsword.
I would like to write this post a lot sooner but i did not know AoC would be so decide to have a great craft, so i want to give my vision of crafting.
As an old player (52), i began my MMO trip with Everquest, Asheron Call (1 & 2), Ultima Online and SWG.
WoW and WoW-likes was sadly the "evolution" of those great games.
I focused everytime on crafting, no matter the game, so i can say i know this part pretty well.
What do crafters really want in a game?
The answer is really simple: Essentially, objects that are not clones and manufacturing that is not done by pressing a single button once you have the resources.
Getting ressources is not crafting...At max it's gathering and ,most of the time, it's fighting for some ressources.
What is a clone item?
When a crafter is at max skill (Rank 10 in AoC if i had understood well) in a speciality (let's say black-smith), each craft called "Steel Long Sword" should be different each time for each crafter and even for the same crafter !
When you craft something in reality, you never make twice the same item, not at 100% identical.
Imagine when it's 2 different people doing the same item, we're far from the 100%.
Why crafters want this?
When you like to craft, you want to be able to personnalize the item, by colors, additionnal slot and by selecting best ressources for a master piece !
For me, there are ideally 4 parts in a craft:
1- The crafter and his equipment:
The characteristics of the manufacturer and his equipment must influence the manufacture of the object.
For example, in the case of blacksmithing, the attributes chosen could be strength and always intelligence (or focus, depending on the game).
For an alchemist: int + wisdom, leatherwork or cabinetmaker: int + dext etc...
His equipment would be the clothes and tools he uses, these being obtained by artisans or loot etc...
For what purpose? Determine the difficulty of making the object (average, good, excellent or perfect success) and be able to determine a total manufacturing point that would be spent during the manufacturing itself.
2- Resources:
The most delicate point that very few games have dared to address: The quality of resources!
In reality, when we harvest iron for our sword, it never has the same purity and the differences are numerous.
When we mine this iron mine, it would be good for this mine, depending on its location and others, to have an average quality.
For example, we find a mine in a particular location and it has an average value of 80. We could harvest iron ore from it with a quality of 70 to 90 at most...
Obviously, the quality of the iron would influence the quality of the finished product, would only be by a few%.
In addition, the resource processing profession would also influence the quality of the final resource.
3- Optional components:
There would be 2 types of options:
- Ingredients allowing you to change the color of 2 or more parts of the object
- Ingredients to boost it or give an additional ability.
4- The manufacturing process:
After having chosen the quality of the resources and options according to the object that we want to create (basic for 1st price or top for high-end), we then distribute the manufacturing points that the craftsman has ( Part 1-) according to different characteristics.
In the case of the iron sword, we could have:
- Solidity
- The weight
- The damage range
- The % of criticism
The craftsman can choose to decide which characteristics he wants to boost, also specifying that if he increases a characteristic to the max, the difficulty of achievement increases.
When the creation of the object is done, we have a result which varies, for example: Failure, average success, classic success, excellent success, perfect success (critical success).
This would also influence the final result.
Warning: This is not about creating overpowered objects, especially when we are talking about a simple iron sword.
Instead of having an iron sword that always does 10 dps, it would be a question of only having unique swords in itself, varying the maximum by -5/+5%, at least, on the dps.
The final result must be precise, we don't want 9.8 dps... We want 9.78 dps! At least 2 decimals.
We also want the name of the craftsman on the object, may fame accompany perfection!
The customization of objects by the color of the parts, the quality of the resources, the options, the power of the craftsman by his manufacturing points, would make it possible to have unique objects and even a signature for certain high-level craftsmen.
These are my current crafting skills in FFXI. I'll explain why I ended up with those levels, from top to bottom.
I started out wanting to raise fishing a bit because fish is loot. Quickly learned I'm not suited to fishing because it requires a lot of patience, learning about different water bodies, moon phases, currents, rod types, bait types, and different "signals" the fish give you. So I ended up disliking it (and I could afford to, my group has 2 fishers). Then, I got really into chocobo racing and because my chocobo does well during rainy weather in races (while most just trip and fall behind), I ended up wanting to craft Foulweather Frogs (which cause rain during said races) and that in turn required fishing for Elshimo Frogs. So I now had a powerful motivation, a very specific fishing target, and an area of the game I actually enjoyed being in. That's how I "accidentally" ended up rising from Fishing 5 to Fishing 14 without feeling like the usual slog.
Woodworking is not something I enjoy a lot, but from time to time I enjoy putting together simple tables or cutting apart wood logs. Any level of woodworking I get is useful anyway, because Woodworking is a secondary crafting skill for many recipes (Polearms for example) and because even the base level arrows are still good to have and use.
Smithing is something I care a lot about, so I put a lot of effort to raise it this far, and intend to raise it even more. The only reason it isn't my main craft is because I main Monk and I like my main craft being able to benefit me directly. It sucks when I make a cool sword and I cannot use it. But I do like making swords, smelting ore into ingots and Smithing is a secondary craft for Goldsmithing recipes, my main focus.
Goldsmithing is my main craft. It's one of the most expensive to raise, but I also cared about it for many reasons: I can specialize into Clockmaking (think gears and automaton modules for Puppetmasters), I can cut gemstones, I can make and sell sweet jewelry (which my main class Monk can use), I can enhance Smithing weapons with alloys and so on. The reason it isn't higher right now is because I need to fully decide what kind of crafter I am. I need to decide how much to dedicate myself to mainly Goldsmithing versus splitting my focus more in Smithing and perhaps Clothcraft. This is decided by what kind of high level recipes or High Quality items I want to focus on.
Clothcraft I have a complicated relationship with. I decided to raise it this high mainly because I wanted to make equipment involving enchanted threads that required it. My friends sometimes describe me as an Item Master or Money Based Red Mage because of my heavy use of such enchanted items (think limited spell charges on gear). I wish I didn't need to raise it this high for what I wanted, because I don't feel like I'm truly enough of a Clothcrafter for level 70 to represent me, I even had to delevel a bit because it felt bad to think of myself that way. This craft often ties in with Goldsmithing (gold and silver threads) and it lets me break down capes I loot from mobs into useful cloth to sell, so it's okay.
I hate Leathercraft. I really wish I didn't have to raise it, but we have no active group member with this skill and a bunch of gear I need in order to reach the Counterattack rate cap on Monk requires Leathercrafting gear or some really unpleasant compromises in other areas. I decided raising this would be less miserable than not being able to Counterattack fools. Level 50 is very precise, I need at most 50 for all Counterattack gear I want and never anything more.
Bonecraft doesn't interest me much, it just amuses me to make glue out of bones and stuff so it somehow ended up at 12. This unintentionally ended up useful, it turns out the glue I like making is part of making Brass Tanks which you need for storing potions (it's a type of charged item, which I like using).
Alchemy was a weird surprise. I really don't like chemistry irl and dealing with solutions, so I expected never to raise it. But it turns out in FFXI you can use lightning to break apart millioncorn into starch, which is fun. And then like glue, I found making bees wax amused me. Then I boiled Gigas Socks to make Poison Powder (never stopped being funny). And then I found out I could make use of some mob gear by breaking it apart into carbon fibers or optic fibers and profiting off those. And then it turned out Optic Fiber is a component is some Clockmaking stuff I care about making with Goldsmithing. Basically, I was able to raise Alchemy an unexpected amount by never mixing solutions, but instead breaking things apart for fun. It's the only game that ever taught me the crafts you choose aren't the full story of who you are, it's also how you approach them. I hadn't intended to raise Alchemy this far, and I don't regret it.
Cooking at 45-47 was a very intentional decision. I have a high level cook in my group, I don't want to take their place. But the mid level allows me to survive well off on my own, adventuring and using what I hunt to keep going forward. I value a certain degree of independence and Meat Mithkabobs represent that independence. Eventually I also became an amateur Patissier though.
Synergy is a weird one so I won't go into much detail. We have high level Synergy players in the group so I don't need to be one and raising it feels like an unnecessary chore.
***
Now to tie it back to Ashes, I expect my focus to be split somewhat between Gathering and Crafting, dabbling only a bit in Processing.
- When it comes to Gathering, I'm expecting my spread to be: Apprentice Herbalism, Master Hunting, Master Mining, Apprentice Lumberjacking.
Hunting sounds very appealing to me. In my group, I'm one of those who explores ever nook and cranny, optimizes hunting paths, optimizes the seconds spent on every spawn of the same mob for 2 hours straight etc. So I know which mobs drop which crafting materials my group needs and where to go get them and how to hunt them. I am really hoping here that Taming is a distinct and optional branch of Hunting. I'd love to help my Animal Husbandry and Beastmaster experts with Taming, but I'm not interested in being quite like them (so I would only dabble a bit).
I have no interest in Lumberjacking except if I can use precious wood to craft jewelry. Then I might dabble.
- In terms of Processing: Apprentice Alchemy, Journeyman Cooking, Journeyman Metalworking, Apprentice Weaving.
No interest in Animal Husbandry per se, what I want here is the same as in FFXI: to be able to raise one or two cute pets/mounts with the instructions of my more knowledgable Animal Husbandry friend. Especially crows and foxes.
Looked really good. Loved the slightly darker night.
Better rock animations look amazing.
The "rarer mats make better things" is great.
Recipe XP sounds interesting, but I'd need to see it in practice, cause crafting the same thing over and over doesn't sound as good on paper (even if I'm totally used to and ok with that).
Artisan gear bonuses looked a bit basic, so I hope there's a deeper variety there. Maybe it's simply on higher lvls, but I don't think that was mentioned.
Profession storylines sound nice and I trust the writers to make them interesting.
Processing fuel stuff looked a bit too passive, but I'd chuck that up to "WIP alpha". Just as it was explained about the active crafting part.
I literally logged into the forums for the first time ever to post about this, because I want to voice a concern which may be uninformed, so please tell me if that's the case.
I'm kind of concerned by how passive the crafting is. I might have not understood properly, but in FFXIV (keep reading, I'm trying to make a point here, not saying "this game should be FFXIV") crafting is an entire job with unique actions, and crafting is a VERY deep minigame, and to me personally it's the best version of crafting in any MMO that I've played.
I feel like, at the moment, Ashes' crafting system is way more of an afterthought in comparison, where you just press the button to craft. I really prefer the system of unlocking better crafting abilities as I progress, and seeing that make crafting low things easier and faster, whilst also allowing very high level crafts to be attemptable in the first place. This may just be a facet of it being an Alpha, but I feel like AoC's crafting is very much a shoehorned afterthought of a system at this time, and not the cornerstone of the economy that it was portrayed as.
The whole system seems like too much. Crafting is equivalent to chores for me, and there are plenty of those in real life that I don’t make time for. Making crafting overly complex, and progress dependent upon it, will make those who have time for the chores very wealthy, and make the game miserable for everyone else.
I am extremely passionate about Skill-Based Artisanship! (SBA) ✨ I’ll be concise here, but I’d love to expand anytime. Adding an optional manual gameplay layer to Ashes’ artisanship has several key benefits:
🔴 Risk vs. Reward — One of Ashes’ core design principles! Skill-Based Artisanship could give players a Risk vs. Reward decision point: should I risk a slightly-worse result, and hope my skills give me a better one? This decision gains more tension—and potential value—at higher tiers of rarity & Artisanship.
🟠 Item Variance — As we’ve seen, Crafting allows variable material input to influence the final result. Involving manual player action is another chance for players to uniquely influence the end result of their effort. This could be ±stat tuning, a quality tier change, or unique effects applied—as simple as a metal’s reflective quality after a polishing attempt.
🟡 Growth — It feels good to get better at something! Right now, Artisanship growth looks to be tied to unlocking tools, recipes, and resource access. These are things that, over time, most or all Artisans will have. However, as you play your Archetype (e.g., Cleric), you get better at it; you understand skill interactions, you position better, etc. SBA would introduce systems that allow you to gain a similar sense of progress!
🟢 Skill Expression — Core MMO gameplay has a lot of “primary” skill expression: a well-timed dodge, a crafty ability rotation, a puzzle decoded. Artisanship, by default, doesn’t have this type of feeling. It’d be nice to get the same moments of “my talent did that!” when you’re Gathering, Processing, or Crafting.
🔵 Pride — It feels really cool to develop a reputation! — ((“I heard there’s a girl who has that recipe, and she’s REALLY good at the gem-dust infusion for the blade.”)) — With SBA, players can make it a point of pride that they can execute on recipes (especially high-level ones) better than others who have the same one. Maybe 100 people have a rare recipe, but only 10 are well-practiced enough to consistently maximize the value that SBA can provide.
🟣 Immersion — Artisanship is at its best when it feels like you’re truly involved. FFXIV has you kneel at a workstation; Minecraft has you place components in a specific shape; Kynseed has you perform several basic actions. These contribute to a satisfying feeling of “Hey, I’m really doing it!” 🛠️
🟤 More to Play With — As you approach Grandmaster Artisanship, more of these SBA systems could become present. Unlocking more “mechanic-based toys” over time would be enjoyable for an Artisan-focused player.
Note: SBA as an Optional Layer
⚫️ While there would be incentives to engage with it, Skill-Based Artisanship could be optional on a per-item basis, allowing players to opt-out due to temporary / general disinterest, a lack of necessity (e.g., low-level item or mass production), or accessibility reasons.
— ~ — ~ — ~ — ~ — ~ —
I could genuinely talk about this topic for hours. I strongly believe Skill-Based Artisanship is a worthy area of focus for Ashes—and I hope you do too. I didn’t get into my ideas for implementation, but I’d happily chat more with the Artisanship devs if they’d enjoy that~ Consider me on Discord speed-dial! 😊
I love crafting systems that require various specialties to put something together. It looks good so far.
The dynamic gathering is really cool and hope it gets expanded upon. Things that can be gathered only in certain areas during certain seasons or certain times, or even situations like when it's raining or snowing is really interesting.
How you can put specific stats or affixes on your gear is really nice. I hate gambling systems of any kind (random item drops being an exception).
The crafting system should heavily tie into the endgame content via PVP or PVE, requiring materials that can only be acquired through that content. I've always experienced the worst form of FOMO when the best gear in an MMO can be crafted/acquired by materials you can all buy off the auction house, making it a game of "who is wealthier" rather than "who is the best gamer". Make it so that bind on pickup materials drop from end game content that you then have to provide to a crafter through a special crafting menu of some kind that allows the crafter to use the bind on pickup materials to make a gear for the person requesting it. You could also have a crafter's auction house of some kind that allows people to put in requests for items to be made using bind on pickup materials that you would put in.
I would prefer a gathering/crafting system that continues to utilize both higher and lower tier gatherables. For example, a birch tree that requires 0 skill in woodcutting could be involved in the recipe to make an end game piece of gear.
New World did this, but they failed miserably. The market settled on having some of the lower tiered, easier to obtain gatherables valued at a higher rate than higher tiered, harder to obtain gatherables.
If you do implement a system that utilizes all gatherables like this, make sure to quadruple check the math to make sure lower tier materials don't become over priced, preventing lower level players from using them to craft low level items, or have high/mid tier materials become worth less than lower tier materials.
Make sure that there are enough desirable craftables that include the use of all materials in the game. Way too often I see a particular material become completely useless because it's only included in a couple of recipes that no one even utilizes. There should be a good surveillance of the value of materials when the game goes live so that you know what is being undervalued so that you can make adjustments either by adding them to more recipes or by increasing/decreasing the amount that are available to be gathered.
Comments
Overall, I was quite pleasantly surprised by this month’s stream.
A few remarks before getting to the heart of the matter:
- The night was much more enjoyable, I really liked the contrast and especially the exterior lights like the fireflies, the shooting stars, the plants and the rocks, really very good work and I hope that you will continue this approach to the sources bright / indirect illumination. But we need torches ! it would add a nice RP / Immersion with the darker nights and the player need to choose between having a large lighten area and be visible for PVP players and predators, or do'nt have it and be sneaky without the enhanced vision.
- Rock physics was also a very good point.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Artisanship system?
I think what I like most about crafts is the feeling of progress and reward for hard work. To build something with my hands, to take pride in it, to say to ourselves that we have done something unique. Finding and obtaining materials must be an adventure. And that the transformation and creation of the final item retains a dose of suspense: Will it be common? or will it be a magnum opus? I think a player's identity and the effort they put into their work should be felt in addition to their possible chance of finding rare materials, or not.
How do you feel about the full-cycle of Artisanship shown during the November livestream?
I found it Classic, with some interesting ideas that I find for the moment not developed enough or quite simply that we do not have the full spectrum of possibilities.
I found the harvesting part very interesting, but it's the fact that the world is alive and resources are managed according to the day night cycle, I hope we will have iterations on these systems for example plants growing only in the rain or storm, others in the snow etc.
I like the “Fuel” aspect but it would be interesting if certain objects required specific fuels or if certain types of fuel had greater possible yields, etc.
Strangely for the moment it is the creation of the final object that I found the least interesting as it stands. I like the idea of being able to use higher quality items to increase the tier of the item created, and it's a good idea that I think should be kept, but that said it would be interesting to be able to influence the object in other ways, for example by substituting materials with another, this would make it possible to create a different sub-statistic, or to orient the object in a different direction, etc.
But what disappointed me the most is that after almost an hour of live, the creation of the object which is supposed to be the final step and the culmination of this gameplay loop ends with an automatic craft which lasts two seconds... I didn't find it adequately represented the accomplishment of the player's job. I would have appreciated that the player had more interaction with the system, had more control, that he could add his two cents somewhere other than by upgrading the recipe. For the rest I think that it can help with a visual staging or a more interactive user interface with crafting animations perhaps, but since this falls outside the scope of an alpha this point remains secondary.
What is your impression of the dynamics shown with gathering? (E.g. Nightstone being invisible during the day, and visible at night)
I think it's awesome honestly. As said above, I hope you can adapt the system with lots of other variables related to the weather, the season, etc. Super cool.
What is your impression of the crafting portion of the livestream? (E.g. Using fragments of various rarities to affect the stats of the item)
Same as what I answered above:
But what disappointed me the most is that after almost an hour of live, the creation of the object which is supposed to be the final step and the culmination of this gameplay loop ends with an automatic craft which lasts two seconds... I didn't find it adequately represented the accomplishment of the player's job. I would have appreciated that the player had more interaction with the system, had more control, that he could add his two cents somewhere other than by upgrading the recipe. For the rest I think it can help with a visual staging or a user interface.
Thanks for your work as always,
I understand people want things to be easy for their single character to experience as much of the game as possible, but by doing so you are only taking away the sense of accomplishment from those who wish to dedicate their time to mastering a trade skill. I don't want to spend my time studying a skill and its impact on the economy of the node I'm tied to, only to be one of thousands because crafting has become a novelty and easily accessible to everyone.
Crafting should be just as much as a time-sink / rewarding experience as leveling a job class.
As always, your game looks amazing and I cannot wait til A2!!!!
I like the variation and dynamic aspect of it, it looks interesting and exciting to try out. I like the pvp potential of it, that if you die, you drop your mats. I like that there’s no “weight” capacity, as this in my experience is mostly just annoying.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Artisanship Preview?
My main concern is regarding the fact that you need to have a freehold to have access to highest crafting/processing, though I am not saying that is is bad in itself, in fact, I like that it is this way, but rather that we just don’t know how many freeholds there will be available, and so will there be enough freeholds for everyone who wants to craft/process max level things?
How do you feel about the full-cycle of Artisanship shown during the November livestream?
I think it was great.
What is your impression of the dynamics shown with gathering? (E.g. Nightstone being invisible during the day, and visible at night)
I really like this aspect, it gives more depth to the game. The only thing I will add is that wolves typically hunt in packs, not individually. I really liked that those spiders in the previous livestream didn’t attack straight away, I felt that was more realistic, and so in keeping with the realism of that, I think certain animals such as wolves should hunt in packs, rather than individually.
What is your impression of the crafting portion of the livestream? (E.g. Using fragments of various rarities to affect the stats of the item)
I think it was great, I really liked the aspect of material rarity affecting the stats of the crafted item.
Other thoughts:
1) I think the game should have *some* degree of instant travel. Perhaps portals between the major cities, aside from scientific nodes. Considering the large scale of the world, if you are seeking a certain type of material that can only be found in certain locations, but then your freehold happens to be very far from those certain locations, it would make it quite difficult. Some degree of instant travel will also be important for the fact that some materials are only available during the night, which means if I have to spend a long time getting to a particular location, I will miss out significantly.
2) Will we perhaps have a harth stone to recall to our freehold?
3) I personally don’t enjoy gathering, I participate in it mostly out of need/necessity, but I generally don’t enjoy it. When I played Archeage, I liked that I could build a farm that allowed me to have plots that I could gather a mass of materials from with a single click. So will AOC have something similar in freeholds? Perhaps some degree of automation? Perhaps you could hire workers on your freehold? Or something to that degree? Something that would still allow you to participate in artisanship in some capacity (not necessarily the best/highest capacity), but still some, for those who don’t enjoy gathering. I know I could just focus on crafting, but if I am buying all my materials, then that can be quite expensive. Then again, as mentioned previously, we don’t have all the details regarding how everything will work.
4) In other mmos I’ve played, the people who reach highest level of crafting first, tend to dominate the market. Additionally, bots tend to dominate gathering which significantly reduces the cost of gatherable materials. How will AOC allow more casual players to participate in crafting in a meaningful way, that still allows them to make a profit from it? And how will AOC prevent bots from over-saturating the market with materials. Just something to think about.
please don't do craft like in archeage where you need to gather 200 000 lumber(basic material) on 1 staff that equivalent of 2000 builded houses in openworld
Much more ineresting to gather rare materials than gather 200 000 basic ones
sorry for double posting, i was thinking that i was editing
delete this post if possible, thank you
btw if previous post also mine it's good mechanic when forum merge them in 1 post
Checking the ore could even have layers to it. You could pick up the ore with the ruby in it for speed however it takes up a larger slot in your bag and can have less stacks. If you take the time to do a little mini game and remove the ruby it takes a little more time but the slot size in the bag is smaller and can take more stacks
Excited to test in Alpha and see if it feels balanced.
Nighttime looked great! I do agree with others that there might need to be a slider for darkness and shadow intensity.
Loved the idea that all the base gatherables make up the main "look" of the world and the rarer stuff will pop up based on game world state.
I saw the Armor sets tab in the UI and would love to know more about that!
Bags look like they are going in the right direction. I was worried on first reveal, but they are growing on me now.
Processing looks great. I like that it's a timer based system as opposed to the active gathering, or the minigame crafting. Passive processing. feels like it fits right in.
I know people are upset about the NPC processor, but I think it's fine. Maybe just change the text to indicate that it's your "Worker's level" or something like that? It's a game after all. XD
But one thing I'd ask or like to explore more is the idea of "Selectable" (optional) items and how a player might determine what to select, if anything.
Will it be a case where "Oak" is always sought after by crit builds? Or "Maple" is always sought after by magic dot builds?
In other words, if they apply directly to 'stats' is it really giving us a choice?
I think I'd prefer another layer on resources, where they might have their own properties (ala SWG) where my choice of material to use isn't tied so closely to a narrow combat purpose. etc
I'll stop here for now
A few observations:
Gathering:
- My observations are biased here since I'm more interesting in gathering
- We've known about gatherers crafting their own tools for some time, but seeing it was helpful. My only concern here is creating too much interdepenency at lower levels for tool mats
- The gathered resource decomp animations look terrific. The physics match the terrain grade, the timing of the despawn is good
- The crafting bags are clever. I REALLY like the addition of shape and stack size for bag to resource matching. This creates a tradeoff when we're out in the wild and find something super-interesting to mine.
- I like the threshold promotions (e.g. beginner to journeyman)
- Overall, gathering 'feels' the most polished of the 3 artisan legs
Processing / Crafting:
- The NPC processing was handy, particularly when there are multiple things to do elsewhere.
- The interaction between gathering and processing felt intuitive and organic
- Crafting (i.e. assembly) was pretty straight-forward - I liked the blend of higher quality mats on the end result of the item - before crafting.
- I'm glad there will be access to different types of processing (node level and freehold level) so the crafting economy isn't pinched in the middle
A couple of suggestions:
1. A passive skill for gatherers that allows for greater carrying capacity at higher certification level and/or when multiple (or all) bags are of a certain resource type. That is a master lumberjack with all dedicated lumber bags can carry more lumber than a beginning lumberjack.
2. Add some form of progress bar / timer for processing so you can be efficient with time (e.g. go make some more coffee).
This here would usually be the typical Place where i would mention and offer the "passive Skill" of Friendship and Team-Work, no "Power-of-Friendship"-Pun intended,
but i realise what you mean. I could imagine that such a Skill would be sooner or later in the Skilltree for Lumberjacking, when You reach Apprentice or Higher than that. Or maybe an Item like an ExtraBag You can carry later on - and for some Reason not right away when You start as a Novice. (lol)
Fair enough. I just think focused expertise can have a tangible benefit.
Pressing a button on a UI window to start a queue where you yourself do nothing but wait is not fun gameplay.
I would suggest making the player character have do the animations that you showed the NPC's doing.
Then in order to advance the progress meter, you would have the player do a simple mini-game mechanic.
Swinging their mouse back and forth when they are de-barking lumber for example.
I was really excited to see the artisan loop had more of a survival/crafting feel to it. To me those types of games have a superior crafting loop. Meaning, crafting tools and equipment to harvest material to process over time to craft better tools and equipment, is just more fun to me than buying my harvesting tool and drag/drop crafting materials until it's time to upgrade my tier.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Artisanship Preview?
As above, I was really excited about the overall loop. I think this style of artisan loops that I've seen more traditionally in survival/sandbox games makes for a more engaging experience. My concern is that moving from 22 to novice to 5 apprentice artisan paths might feel restrictive, but that's an easy fix in testing.
How do you feel about the full-cycle of Artisanship shown during the November livestream?
It was great! I saw some comments saying it seems like a waste of time. Please ignore these. I am the type of player who plays games exclusively to craft, and this is the type of system I am looking to engage with. Please do not simplify this for more raid/PvP oriented players.
What is your impression of the dynamics shown with gathering? (E.g. Nightstone being invisible during the day, and visible at night)
I really like the idea that time and place matters. From the livestream, so only Twitch resolution, the material was a bit hard to differentiate at night.
What is your impression of the crafting portion of the livestream? (E.g. Using fragments of various rarities to affect the stats of the item)
Love it! I am thrilled at the idea that a single recipe can produce custom results depending on the play style of the customer I am trying to accommodate as a crafter. If you could double down on this mechanic in some way, maybe higher tier artisans can unlock bonus optional slots to produce even more unique combinations, I would never leave my shop.
I really appreciate the attention to detail that the development team has given to the Artisanship system. From the gather animations to the flexibility in adding extra reagents for additional recipe customization, its clear that the team is passionate about their work!
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Artisanship Preview?
One of my biggest concerns about the crafting system shown was the reveal of processing queues. While I understand the desire to limit the supply and influx of processed goods, I can foresee several potential problems with the way processing queues are currently being handled.
If processing times are short, such that the total queue time is around 5-15 minutes, then the limited queue size will place people in an awkward situation where they don't have enough time to go and do anything meaningful before the queue needs to be refreshed. Instead, people will most likely be forced to sit around afk in town while they wait for their processing timer to finish.
If the total queue times instead have a moderate length, let's say somewhere between 1-12 hours, then that puts crafters in an awkward position as well. That's enough time to have a meaningful gameplay loop before players need to come back to town to refresh their queues, but problems arise when players aren't actively playing. I think many players will feel obligated to login every few hours to refresh their queues.
Ideally, queues should be long enough that they don't need to be refreshed until players would naturally start their next play session. I think that logging in once per day is a reasonable requirement for players. Therefore, I think processing queues should be able to last at least 24 hours.
Moreover, long queues could actually create some interesting gameplay. To overcome long queue times, crafters will be encouraged to explore the world and visit as many nodes as possible, starting new queues in each location. To help facilitate this, it would be helpful to have UI elements that help players track the status of their processing queues across every node and/or freehold.
What is your impression of the dynamics shown with gathering? (E.g. Nightstone being invisible during the day, and visible at night)
I think the dynamic gathering system is really interesting, and I hope that this is taken even further than what was shown. With 2 moons, there are tons of possibilities for various secrets, events, and gatherables depending upon each moons' state in their unique lunar cycles. Everyone knows that werewolves only come out when there's a full moon, but what monster comes out when when you have 2 full moons???
What is your impression of the crafting portion of the livestream? (E.g. Using fragments of various rarities to affect the stats of the item)
I share some of the concerns that other have mentioned about having crafting levels for each recipe. My biggest concern is that learning new recipes for end products (e.g. swords, armor, etc.) will feel less exciting. I really don't want to be in a position where I learn a new recipe and my first thought is, "If I just craft this sword 50 times to level the recipe fully, I might be able to replace my current weapon." Ideally, recipe XP shouldn't make gear more powerful. Instead, it should either reduce crafting cost or processing time. That way, mastering recipes is rewarding, but doesn't kill the excitement of crafting a new item for the first time.
My other concern is that as people attempt to level recipes, or their craft for that matter, the auction house will be flooded with gear and other goods. In other MMOs, I've often felt that my efforts to level crafting professions were undermined because not only I could easily purchase anything that I was able to craft, but prices were so low that it was often more expensive to craft the items myself. I recommend making all crafted end products bind-on-pickup by default. And instead, offer crafters the option to add a special reagent if they want to make a tradable version.
good vibes to you all
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Artisanship Preview?
Night is a bit too dark, especially areas with shadows. I'm not sure I can enjoy exploring at night. Seeing something interesting in the distance makes me want to go explore that area, but seeing an opaque area of shadow doesn't.
Shadows on characters makes it difficult to see/appreciate their gear. I don't play survival games, but for an MMO, I'd rather have better visibility than realistic darkness.
What is your impression of the dynamics shown with gathering? (E.g. Nightstone being invisible during the day, and visible at night)
It's good to provide resource options at night, but it sounds like the regular, non-glowing resources are still around? My concern is the shadows at night are going to inhibit players' ability to search for those resources.
I understand the concept to fulfill the fantasy weapon in game world but I still want to say few things about your weapon design. The swords you showed looks great even though the bigger one has a asymmetrical hand guard usually hand guards are symmetrical. It’s more common to see asymmetrical hand guard on knife but it’s not a big deal. The short bow is not good. The string seems too short which bending limbs already too much by just strung the bow. You will lose a big part of strength from the limbs because the limbs are already compressed a lot by just strung. It also makes brace height too high and max draw length too short which means the distance for limbs to work on arrow is very short aka wrong string is wasting the strength of the bow and potentially can damage the bow. Oh, and the string position is also wrong is makes the limb tip/limb ear/bow ear/siyah(I don't know what you called it) not only meaningless but also adding more weight for the limbs need to push while shooting arrow which means less efficient. There are a lot bow maker or people do review video about bows that you can find on youtube and internet, please take your time before you design the bow.
Archer and bow reviewer:
https://www.youtube.com/@ArminHirmer
Bow maker I like:
http://nawalny-bows.com/
https://sarmatarchery.com/
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
In my chaotic mess of a brain.
I would have it as something you can opt into, not mandatory by any means. If you chose to opt in and attempt the skill challenge, there's no punishment for failing. The item remains the same as it is with increases from ingredients as normal.
You would have three attempts at this skill challenge, with each attempt you receive results based on your performance, with each attempt you forgo your previous results.
The results you achieve will reward you with different results. There could be a flavor text on the item viewable by the owner that could state "Nightblade Longsword crafted by LordSteven". if you perform well you could have the weapon or armor fall into categories of Normal, well crafted, flawless, and perfect. The flavor text changing to, "Flawless Nightblade Longsword crafted by (Master / Grandmaster Smith) LordSteven".
These different levels could offer minor improvements like, 1 strength, some more durability, or something else minor or major depending on variables and balancing. With proficiency in the armor or weapon type being crafted, it could make the game slightly easier to succeed.
The game layer in question that I would like to see and would enjoy using would be something akin to a timing game. Each hammer blow falling into a rhythm. Similar to games like dead by day light with starting generators. The inspiration I personally pull from is Outlast Trials, the arm wrestling lobby mechanic. It was very satisfying to me and gave a rush when I got it right and I got better with practice. With increased proficiency, the areas to click on can become gradually larger. Feeling the rush of getting a perfect score and seeing an item say "Perfect crafted by you" and having that item forever have your name on it would give a lot of value and pride to the profession.
I know this might deter people from smithing. I hope that's not the case since you can still make good items with proper and rare materials, and it wouldn't be something that people couldn't improve at either. If you spend the time to raise a proficiency and some practice doing it, I don't see why anyone of any age couldn't achieve a perfect weapon craft!
I personally believe that adding some form of skill base to crafting will make people crave a good blacksmith even if they're just starting out. It would give value to people who don't have a lot of time to get grandmaster in the first month. People would still value smiths that have experience, and value new smiths that have skill, and both would make you a treasure.
Having the best materials would still have a better item as the outcome, but a skilled and experienced smith with quality items can make a treasure!
I hope this idea could excite some people like it does with me because I really really love this idea!
Thanks!
P.S. I loved the stream! The colors of glowing stuff at night was a bit much for me and i wish resources weren't neon sign screaming at me, it'd be different if it was the whole environment. The way things pop out is too unnatural for my taste.
The sounds of chopping trees sounds wrong to me as well.
Artisanship and professions has so much potential in Vera, and in alot of ways you guys seem to be headed in the right direction with alot of things (aaand a few others not so much
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Artisanship system?
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Artisanship Preview?
I've mainly focused on the positive things above, so I'll try to focus this question on the more concerning aspects
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How do you feel about the full-cycle of Artisanship shown during the November livestream?
Really neat to see a real example of a full cycle, but honestly a bit of a let-down to see that it isn't the player who actually perfoms the different stages of processing and crafting... You venture out and gather raw materials with your own hands, and then you return to the city-node and basicly ask an NPC nicely to do the rest of the job for you. Kind of a bummer to be a grand-master of asking an NPC smith to make you the biggest baddest broadsword in all of the land...
What is your impression of the crafting portion of the livestream? (E.g. Using fragments of various rarities to affect the stats of the item)
The idea of having special affix-items you can use to boost the rarity or power of an item is really a fun idea. I've earlier written a hot-take on the "rare-loot discussion" about a Vera without the possibility of getting gear from mobs; they can only drop you affixes and other gathering materials you can use to craft better gear with. This might be a bit too much, but the idea of killing a dragon and then instead of getting a magical sword from it, you can take a claw and a tooth and make a magical sword from those instead is kind of appealing! You could even just have a recipe for a broadsword where you would use normal iron and it would look like an iron sword, but if you used a dragon-claw it would change both the rarity but also apperance of the sword to really look like a Dragonsword.
I would like to write this post a lot sooner but i did not know AoC would be so decide to have a great craft, so i want to give my vision of crafting.
As an old player (52), i began my MMO trip with Everquest, Asheron Call (1 & 2), Ultima Online and SWG.
WoW and WoW-likes was sadly the "evolution" of those great games.
I focused everytime on crafting, no matter the game, so i can say i know this part pretty well.
What do crafters really want in a game?
The answer is really simple: Essentially, objects that are not clones and manufacturing that is not done by pressing a single button once you have the resources.
Getting ressources is not crafting...At max it's gathering and ,most of the time, it's fighting for some ressources.
What is a clone item?
When a crafter is at max skill (Rank 10 in AoC if i had understood well) in a speciality (let's say black-smith), each craft called "Steel Long Sword" should be different each time for each crafter and even for the same crafter !
When you craft something in reality, you never make twice the same item, not at 100% identical.
Imagine when it's 2 different people doing the same item, we're far from the 100%.
Why crafters want this?
When you like to craft, you want to be able to personnalize the item, by colors, additionnal slot and by selecting best ressources for a master piece !
For me, there are ideally 4 parts in a craft:
1- The crafter and his equipment:
The characteristics of the manufacturer and his equipment must influence the manufacture of the object.
For example, in the case of blacksmithing, the attributes chosen could be strength and always intelligence (or focus, depending on the game).
For an alchemist: int + wisdom, leatherwork or cabinetmaker: int + dext etc...
His equipment would be the clothes and tools he uses, these being obtained by artisans or loot etc...
For what purpose? Determine the difficulty of making the object (average, good, excellent or perfect success) and be able to determine a total manufacturing point that would be spent during the manufacturing itself.
2- Resources:
The most delicate point that very few games have dared to address: The quality of resources!
In reality, when we harvest iron for our sword, it never has the same purity and the differences are numerous.
When we mine this iron mine, it would be good for this mine, depending on its location and others, to have an average quality.
For example, we find a mine in a particular location and it has an average value of 80. We could harvest iron ore from it with a quality of 70 to 90 at most...
Obviously, the quality of the iron would influence the quality of the finished product, would only be by a few%.
In addition, the resource processing profession would also influence the quality of the final resource.
3- Optional components:
There would be 2 types of options:
- Ingredients allowing you to change the color of 2 or more parts of the object
- Ingredients to boost it or give an additional ability.
4- The manufacturing process:
After having chosen the quality of the resources and options according to the object that we want to create (basic for 1st price or top for high-end), we then distribute the manufacturing points that the craftsman has ( Part 1-) according to different characteristics.
In the case of the iron sword, we could have:
- Solidity
- The weight
- The damage range
- The % of criticism
The craftsman can choose to decide which characteristics he wants to boost, also specifying that if he increases a characteristic to the max, the difficulty of achievement increases.
When the creation of the object is done, we have a result which varies, for example: Failure, average success, classic success, excellent success, perfect success (critical success).
This would also influence the final result.
Warning: This is not about creating overpowered objects, especially when we are talking about a simple iron sword.
Instead of having an iron sword that always does 10 dps, it would be a question of only having unique swords in itself, varying the maximum by -5/+5%, at least, on the dps.
The final result must be precise, we don't want 9.8 dps... We want 9.78 dps! At least 2 decimals.
We also want the name of the craftsman on the object, may fame accompany perfection!
The customization of objects by the color of the parts, the quality of the resources, the options, the power of the craftsman by his manufacturing points, would make it possible to have unique objects and even a signature for certain high-level craftsmen.
There you go, do with it what you want
PS Sorry for my english, i'm french.
I started out wanting to raise fishing a bit because fish is loot. Quickly learned I'm not suited to fishing because it requires a lot of patience, learning about different water bodies, moon phases, currents, rod types, bait types, and different "signals" the fish give you. So I ended up disliking it (and I could afford to, my group has 2 fishers). Then, I got really into chocobo racing and because my chocobo does well during rainy weather in races (while most just trip and fall behind), I ended up wanting to craft Foulweather Frogs (which cause rain during said races) and that in turn required fishing for Elshimo Frogs. So I now had a powerful motivation, a very specific fishing target, and an area of the game I actually enjoyed being in. That's how I "accidentally" ended up rising from Fishing 5 to Fishing 14 without feeling like the usual slog.
Woodworking is not something I enjoy a lot, but from time to time I enjoy putting together simple tables or cutting apart wood logs. Any level of woodworking I get is useful anyway, because Woodworking is a secondary crafting skill for many recipes (Polearms for example) and because even the base level arrows are still good to have and use.
Smithing is something I care a lot about, so I put a lot of effort to raise it this far, and intend to raise it even more. The only reason it isn't my main craft is because I main Monk and I like my main craft being able to benefit me directly. It sucks when I make a cool sword and I cannot use it. But I do like making swords, smelting ore into ingots and Smithing is a secondary craft for Goldsmithing recipes, my main focus.
Goldsmithing is my main craft. It's one of the most expensive to raise, but I also cared about it for many reasons: I can specialize into Clockmaking (think gears and automaton modules for Puppetmasters), I can cut gemstones, I can make and sell sweet jewelry (which my main class Monk can use), I can enhance Smithing weapons with alloys and so on. The reason it isn't higher right now is because I need to fully decide what kind of crafter I am. I need to decide how much to dedicate myself to mainly Goldsmithing versus splitting my focus more in Smithing and perhaps Clothcraft. This is decided by what kind of high level recipes or High Quality items I want to focus on.
Clothcraft I have a complicated relationship with. I decided to raise it this high mainly because I wanted to make equipment involving enchanted threads that required it. My friends sometimes describe me as an Item Master or Money Based Red Mage because of my heavy use of such enchanted items (think limited spell charges on gear). I wish I didn't need to raise it this high for what I wanted, because I don't feel like I'm truly enough of a Clothcrafter for level 70 to represent me, I even had to delevel a bit because it felt bad to think of myself that way. This craft often ties in with Goldsmithing (gold and silver threads) and it lets me break down capes I loot from mobs into useful cloth to sell, so it's okay.
I hate Leathercraft. I really wish I didn't have to raise it, but we have no active group member with this skill and a bunch of gear I need in order to reach the Counterattack rate cap on Monk requires Leathercrafting gear or some really unpleasant compromises in other areas. I decided raising this would be less miserable than not being able to Counterattack fools. Level 50 is very precise, I need at most 50 for all Counterattack gear I want and never anything more.
Bonecraft doesn't interest me much, it just amuses me to make glue out of bones and stuff so it somehow ended up at 12. This unintentionally ended up useful, it turns out the glue I like making is part of making Brass Tanks which you need for storing potions (it's a type of charged item, which I like using).
Alchemy was a weird surprise. I really don't like chemistry irl and dealing with solutions, so I expected never to raise it. But it turns out in FFXI you can use lightning to break apart millioncorn into starch, which is fun. And then like glue, I found making bees wax amused me. Then I boiled Gigas Socks to make Poison Powder (never stopped being funny). And then I found out I could make use of some mob gear by breaking it apart into carbon fibers or optic fibers and profiting off those. And then it turned out Optic Fiber is a component is some Clockmaking stuff I care about making with Goldsmithing. Basically, I was able to raise Alchemy an unexpected amount by never mixing solutions, but instead breaking things apart for fun. It's the only game that ever taught me the crafts you choose aren't the full story of who you are, it's also how you approach them. I hadn't intended to raise Alchemy this far, and I don't regret it.
Cooking at 45-47 was a very intentional decision. I have a high level cook in my group, I don't want to take their place. But the mid level allows me to survive well off on my own, adventuring and using what I hunt to keep going forward. I value a certain degree of independence and Meat Mithkabobs represent that independence. Eventually I also became an amateur Patissier though.
Synergy is a weird one so I won't go into much detail. We have high level Synergy players in the group so I don't need to be one and raising it feels like an unnecessary chore.
***
Now to tie it back to Ashes, I expect my focus to be split somewhat between Gathering and Crafting, dabbling only a bit in Processing.
- When it comes to Gathering, I'm expecting my spread to be: Apprentice Herbalism, Master Hunting, Master Mining, Apprentice Lumberjacking.
Hunting sounds very appealing to me. In my group, I'm one of those who explores ever nook and cranny, optimizes hunting paths, optimizes the seconds spent on every spawn of the same mob for 2 hours straight etc. So I know which mobs drop which crafting materials my group needs and where to go get them and how to hunt them. I am really hoping here that Taming is a distinct and optional branch of Hunting. I'd love to help my Animal Husbandry and Beastmaster experts with Taming, but I'm not interested in being quite like them (so I would only dabble a bit).
I have no interest in Lumberjacking except if I can use precious wood to craft jewelry. Then I might dabble.
- In terms of Processing: Apprentice Alchemy, Journeyman Cooking, Journeyman Metalworking, Apprentice Weaving.
No interest in Animal Husbandry per se, what I want here is the same as in FFXI: to be able to raise one or two cute pets/mounts with the instructions of my more knowledgable Animal Husbandry friend. Especially crows and foxes.
- And finally, for Crafting: Grandmaster Arcane Engineering, Grandmaster Jewel Cutting, Master Weapon Smithing, Journeyman Scribing, Journeyman Armor Smithing, Apprentice Tailoring.
Wow loved this
I'm kind of concerned by how passive the crafting is. I might have not understood properly, but in FFXIV (keep reading, I'm trying to make a point here, not saying "this game should be FFXIV") crafting is an entire job with unique actions, and crafting is a VERY deep minigame, and to me personally it's the best version of crafting in any MMO that I've played.
I feel like, at the moment, Ashes' crafting system is way more of an afterthought in comparison, where you just press the button to craft. I really prefer the system of unlocking better crafting abilities as I progress, and seeing that make crafting low things easier and faster, whilst also allowing very high level crafts to be attemptable in the first place. This may just be a facet of it being an Alpha, but I feel like AoC's crafting is very much a shoehorned afterthought of a system at this time, and not the cornerstone of the economy that it was portrayed as.
I am extremely passionate about Skill-Based Artisanship! (SBA) ✨ I’ll be concise here, but I’d love to expand anytime. Adding an optional manual gameplay layer to Ashes’ artisanship has several key benefits:
🔴 Risk vs. Reward — One of Ashes’ core design principles! Skill-Based Artisanship could give players a Risk vs. Reward decision point: should I risk a slightly-worse result, and hope my skills give me a better one? This decision gains more tension—and potential value—at higher tiers of rarity & Artisanship.
🟠 Item Variance — As we’ve seen, Crafting allows variable material input to influence the final result. Involving manual player action is another chance for players to uniquely influence the end result of their effort. This could be ±stat tuning, a quality tier change, or unique effects applied—as simple as a metal’s reflective quality after a polishing attempt.
🟡 Growth — It feels good to get better at something! Right now, Artisanship growth looks to be tied to unlocking tools, recipes, and resource access. These are things that, over time, most or all Artisans will have. However, as you play your Archetype (e.g., Cleric), you get better at it; you understand skill interactions, you position better, etc. SBA would introduce systems that allow you to gain a similar sense of progress!
🟢 Skill Expression — Core MMO gameplay has a lot of “primary” skill expression: a well-timed dodge, a crafty ability rotation, a puzzle decoded. Artisanship, by default, doesn’t have this type of feeling. It’d be nice to get the same moments of “my talent did that!” when you’re Gathering, Processing, or Crafting.
🔵 Pride — It feels really cool to develop a reputation! — ((“I heard there’s a girl who has that recipe, and she’s REALLY good at the gem-dust infusion for the blade.”)) — With SBA, players can make it a point of pride that they can execute on recipes (especially high-level ones) better than others who have the same one. Maybe 100 people have a rare recipe, but only 10 are well-practiced enough to consistently maximize the value that SBA can provide.
🟣 Immersion — Artisanship is at its best when it feels like you’re truly involved. FFXIV has you kneel at a workstation; Minecraft has you place components in a specific shape; Kynseed has you perform several basic actions. These contribute to a satisfying feeling of “Hey, I’m really doing it!” 🛠️
🟤 More to Play With — As you approach Grandmaster Artisanship, more of these SBA systems could become present. Unlocking more “mechanic-based toys” over time would be enjoyable for an Artisan-focused player.
Note: SBA as an Optional Layer
⚫️ While there would be incentives to engage with it, Skill-Based Artisanship could be optional on a per-item basis, allowing players to opt-out due to temporary / general disinterest, a lack of necessity (e.g., low-level item or mass production), or accessibility reasons.
— ~ — ~ — ~ — ~ — ~ —
I could genuinely talk about this topic for hours. I strongly believe Skill-Based Artisanship is a worthy area of focus for Ashes—and I hope you do too.
Thank you so much for reading! ❤️
— Shae (ShdwFlm)
The dynamic gathering is really cool and hope it gets expanded upon. Things that can be gathered only in certain areas during certain seasons or certain times, or even situations like when it's raining or snowing is really interesting.
How you can put specific stats or affixes on your gear is really nice. I hate gambling systems of any kind (random item drops being an exception).
The crafting system should heavily tie into the endgame content via PVP or PVE, requiring materials that can only be acquired through that content. I've always experienced the worst form of FOMO when the best gear in an MMO can be crafted/acquired by materials you can all buy off the auction house, making it a game of "who is wealthier" rather than "who is the best gamer". Make it so that bind on pickup materials drop from end game content that you then have to provide to a crafter through a special crafting menu of some kind that allows the crafter to use the bind on pickup materials to make a gear for the person requesting it. You could also have a crafter's auction house of some kind that allows people to put in requests for items to be made using bind on pickup materials that you would put in.
I would prefer a gathering/crafting system that continues to utilize both higher and lower tier gatherables. For example, a birch tree that requires 0 skill in woodcutting could be involved in the recipe to make an end game piece of gear.
New World did this, but they failed miserably. The market settled on having some of the lower tiered, easier to obtain gatherables valued at a higher rate than higher tiered, harder to obtain gatherables.
If you do implement a system that utilizes all gatherables like this, make sure to quadruple check the math to make sure lower tier materials don't become over priced, preventing lower level players from using them to craft low level items, or have high/mid tier materials become worth less than lower tier materials.
Make sure that there are enough desirable craftables that include the use of all materials in the game. Way too often I see a particular material become completely useless because it's only included in a couple of recipes that no one even utilizes. There should be a good surveillance of the value of materials when the game goes live so that you know what is being undervalued so that you can make adjustments either by adding them to more recipes or by increasing/decreasing the amount that are available to be gathered.