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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
My vision of a crafting system for real crafters
Sargramor
Member
Hello
I would like to write this post a lot sooner but i did not know AoC would be so decide to have a great craft, so i want to give my vision of crafting.
As an old player (52), i began my MMO trip with Everquest, Asheron Call (1 & 2), Ultima Online and SWG.
WoW and WoW-likes was sadly the "evolution" of those great games.
I focused everytime on crafting, no matter the game, so i can say i know this part pretty well.
What do crafters really want in a game?
The answer is really simple: Essentially, objects that are not clones and manufacturing that is not done by pressing a single button once you have the resources.
Getting ressources is not crafting...At max it's gathering and ,most of the time, it's fighting for some ressources.
What is a clone item?
When a crafter is at max skill (Rank 10 in AoC if i had understood well) in a speciality (let's say black-smith), each craft called "Steel Long Sword" should be different each time for each crafter and even for the same crafter !
When you craft something in reality, you never make twice the same item, not at 100% identical.
Imagine when it's 2 different people doing the same item, we're far from the 100%.
Why crafters want this?
When you like to craft, you want to be able to personnalize the item, by colors, additionnal slot and by selecting best ressources for a master piece !
For me, there are ideally 4 parts in a craft:
1- The crafter and his equipment:
The characteristics of the manufacturer and his equipment must influence the manufacture of the object.
For example, in the case of blacksmithing, the attributes chosen could be strength and always intelligence (or focus, depending on the game).
For an alchemist: int + wisdom, leatherwork or cabinetmaker: int + dext etc...
His equipment would be the clothes and tools he uses, these being obtained by artisans or loot etc...
For what purpose? Determine the difficulty of making the object (average, good, excellent or perfect success) and be able to determine a total manufacturing point that would be spent during the manufacturing itself.
2- Resources:
The most delicate point that very few games have dared to address: The quality of resources!
In reality, when we harvest iron for our sword, it never has the same purity and the differences are numerous.
When we mine this iron mine, it would be good for this mine, depending on its location and others, to have an average quality.
For example, we find a mine in a particular location and it has an average value of 80. We could harvest iron ore from it with a quality of 70 to 90 at most...
Obviously, the quality of the iron would influence the quality of the finished product, would only be by a few%.
In addition, the resource processing profession would also influence the quality of the final resource.
3- Optional components:
There would be 2 types of options:
- Ingredients allowing you to change the color of 2 or more parts of the object
- Ingredients to boost it or give an additional ability.
4- The manufacturing process:
After having chosen the quality of the resources and options according to the object that we want to create (basic for 1st price or top for high-end), we then distribute the manufacturing points that the craftsman has ( Part 1-) according to different characteristics.
In the case of the iron sword, we could have:
- Solidity
- The weight
- The damage range
- The % of criticism
The craftsman can choose to decide which characteristics he wants to boost, also specifying that if he increases a characteristic to the max, the difficulty of achievement increases.
When the creation of the object is done, we have a result which varies, for example: Failure, average success, classic success, excellent success, perfect success (critical success).
This would also influence the final result.
Warning: This is not about creating overpowered objects, especially when we are talking about a simple iron sword.
Instead of having an iron sword that always does 10 dps, it would be a question of only having unique swords in itself, varying the maximum by -5/+5%, at least, on the dps.
The final result must be precise, we don't want 9.8 dps... We want 9.78 dps! At least 2 decimals.
We also want the name of the craftsman on the object, may fame accompany perfection!
The customization of objects by the color of the parts, the quality of the resources, the options, the power of the craftsman by his manufacturing points, would make it possible to have unique objects and even a signature for certain high-level craftsmen.
There you go, do with it what you want
PS Sorry for my english, i'm french.
I would like to write this post a lot sooner but i did not know AoC would be so decide to have a great craft, so i want to give my vision of crafting.
As an old player (52), i began my MMO trip with Everquest, Asheron Call (1 & 2), Ultima Online and SWG.
WoW and WoW-likes was sadly the "evolution" of those great games.
I focused everytime on crafting, no matter the game, so i can say i know this part pretty well.
What do crafters really want in a game?
The answer is really simple: Essentially, objects that are not clones and manufacturing that is not done by pressing a single button once you have the resources.
Getting ressources is not crafting...At max it's gathering and ,most of the time, it's fighting for some ressources.
What is a clone item?
When a crafter is at max skill (Rank 10 in AoC if i had understood well) in a speciality (let's say black-smith), each craft called "Steel Long Sword" should be different each time for each crafter and even for the same crafter !
When you craft something in reality, you never make twice the same item, not at 100% identical.
Imagine when it's 2 different people doing the same item, we're far from the 100%.
Why crafters want this?
When you like to craft, you want to be able to personnalize the item, by colors, additionnal slot and by selecting best ressources for a master piece !
For me, there are ideally 4 parts in a craft:
1- The crafter and his equipment:
The characteristics of the manufacturer and his equipment must influence the manufacture of the object.
For example, in the case of blacksmithing, the attributes chosen could be strength and always intelligence (or focus, depending on the game).
For an alchemist: int + wisdom, leatherwork or cabinetmaker: int + dext etc...
His equipment would be the clothes and tools he uses, these being obtained by artisans or loot etc...
For what purpose? Determine the difficulty of making the object (average, good, excellent or perfect success) and be able to determine a total manufacturing point that would be spent during the manufacturing itself.
2- Resources:
The most delicate point that very few games have dared to address: The quality of resources!
In reality, when we harvest iron for our sword, it never has the same purity and the differences are numerous.
When we mine this iron mine, it would be good for this mine, depending on its location and others, to have an average quality.
For example, we find a mine in a particular location and it has an average value of 80. We could harvest iron ore from it with a quality of 70 to 90 at most...
Obviously, the quality of the iron would influence the quality of the finished product, would only be by a few%.
In addition, the resource processing profession would also influence the quality of the final resource.
3- Optional components:
There would be 2 types of options:
- Ingredients allowing you to change the color of 2 or more parts of the object
- Ingredients to boost it or give an additional ability.
4- The manufacturing process:
After having chosen the quality of the resources and options according to the object that we want to create (basic for 1st price or top for high-end), we then distribute the manufacturing points that the craftsman has ( Part 1-) according to different characteristics.
In the case of the iron sword, we could have:
- Solidity
- The weight
- The damage range
- The % of criticism
The craftsman can choose to decide which characteristics he wants to boost, also specifying that if he increases a characteristic to the max, the difficulty of achievement increases.
When the creation of the object is done, we have a result which varies, for example: Failure, average success, classic success, excellent success, perfect success (critical success).
This would also influence the final result.
Warning: This is not about creating overpowered objects, especially when we are talking about a simple iron sword.
Instead of having an iron sword that always does 10 dps, it would be a question of only having unique swords in itself, varying the maximum by -5/+5%, at least, on the dps.
The final result must be precise, we don't want 9.8 dps... We want 9.78 dps! At least 2 decimals.
We also want the name of the craftsman on the object, may fame accompany perfection!
The customization of objects by the color of the parts, the quality of the resources, the options, the power of the craftsman by his manufacturing points, would make it possible to have unique objects and even a signature for certain high-level craftsmen.
There you go, do with it what you want
PS Sorry for my english, i'm french.
4
Comments
If you did not get a chance to watch the latest LiveStream on the Artisanship System, I recommend checking Ashes of Creation YouTube.
If you watched it and this post is your response, the post might be merged into that Feedback Thread.
This is more likely if you request it, or if you say that you don't need to have a lot of discussions with others in this thread. If you have separate feedback, please add it to that thread.
I did not watch it, i'll do.
I watched some videos few days ago but they were more on certifications, wich it's not crafting mechanism, but more some quests and gathering to pass next step.
I wanted to tell them about my vision and maybe, they'll have time to pick some ideas if they like it.
I'll post it in the Feedback anyway.
Thanks a lot for your reply
Love the name of crafter on what you create. I have always wanted this along with the names of the people who have used the item in the past would just be cool to see the history of an item.
2 people can make the same stuff identical, for example, coca cola.
anyways im confused, you want crafters to differentiate from others in the items they make but you want thm to give specific stats based on the type they are? so all blacksmith will give str to everything they make...this would make the items more similar than different, its a contradiction....
ive always liked the idea of different results using the same materials depending on who gathered them tho. but anyways games arent real life so yeah...balancing as well as technical limitations are more important.
SWG had no problems with that 15 years ago...
You're joking right? It's called factory...
And if 2 people make their own coca cola, the recipe will be different...
- "anyways im confused, you want crafters to differentiate from others in the items they make but you want thm to give specific stats based on the type they are? so all blacksmith will give str to everything they make...this would make the items more similar than different, its a contradiction...."
No, the manufacturing point are based on stats, blacksmith would be based on Int +Strenght , Alchimie Int+ Focus, etc...
Nothing to see with the stats on the final product.
- "ive always liked the idea of different results using the same materials depending on who gathered them tho. but anyways games arent real life so yeah...balancing as well as technical limitations are more important."
Yes and it's time for a change...We don't talk about a new revolutionnary 3D engine, it's simple to do if devs/team want it to exist, so simple...And once again, SWG did it 15/20 years ago with 8 (!!!!!) caracteristics for each ressources !
coca cola has a formula, if you deviate form that, then its pepsi or dr pepper.
who runs the factory btw?
what about factory workers making stuff in bulk and they all look the same, like pencils back then for example.
Even with a recipe, you don't have exactly same result...
To have exactly same result, you need a factory and we're talking about craftsmanship.
I'm not there to argue on that, you have my point of view, you got your...
The freehold owner could have a deal with the crafters, will provide materials and the best crafters will have access more often. Those who dare to experiment with expensive resources might optimize their recipe.
But if they cannot afford the research costs they have to share the secrets with the freehold owner.
Unfortunately, a crafting system this intricate would fit a sandbox game more than a theme park MMO.
But what you suggest doesnt sound far off from Mortal Online 2. Have you ever tried that one?
Disclaimer: Miss me with that "Sandpark game" shit. AoC is a themepark with ambitions. Rightly so.
-> Yes, personalizing crafted items (colors, attributes, name) should be a staple in every MMO imho.
-> No, using the stats of fighting equipment is not ideal.
There should be extra slots on a separate inventory tab where you can equip artisan gear.
The artisan gear has own stats for:
"Gathering"(quantity, progress), "Perception"(quality, rarity)
"Processing"(quantity, progress), "Control"(quality, rarity)
"Crafting"(progress), "Artisanship"(quality)
Yes, if not too much to handle for the devs, but if pulled off maybe for an expansion.
Also the overload of so many different items could be a problem.
Yes if every ability is worth it. Look at New World how much bullshit litters their item tables... or skill tables... or any tables... i don't want too many dead weights in the game.
Yes, but without failure i guess, if i got Stevens vision correct.
Inventory space is not as big of an issue if you condense the quality differences into the UI.
Basically you create different values for one specific stackable item:
100x [iron ingot] (50)(40)(10)
25x [copper ore] (11)(9)(5)
or something similar, where you see it directly on the icon or when you hover over it.
So it always stays as one stack of this item unless the overall stack size is full ofc.
Useless items can be salvaged yes, or given away to friends or sold to other players who don't see them as useless because they get them cheaper than the higher quality ones.
In a world without geardrops, any affordable item would be appreciated even if it's just a backup piece for emergencies. and you can't repair it by yourself.
(I see many weapon and armor smith combos coming up for the sole reason of being independent in that regard tho...)
Is this a rhetorical question?
No, I recognize a philosophical question when I see one.
Did you know that crafty people of the past were to not waste any material in their processes?!
They reused many substances for instance in tanning, or melted old tools and broken metal parts for new smith crafts.
Even from a moral standpoint today, yes we want to salvage everything possible and produce resources as renewable as possible it would be an important message for all of us in a very subtle way under the mask of high fantasy and historical ingenuity and craftmanship.
Do you want to be the best in your craft?
Then use every tool at your disposal to get an edge over your competition.
Lower tiers get replaced in value so quickly that they might not as well exist. This happens in every single game without a salvaging /recycling system.
It's neither a rhetorical nor a philosophical question. Im literally asking does someone who wants to craft items for their friends/guildmates/neighbors find engagement and fun in an indepth crafting system using salvaging as it's primary source of resource inflation/deflation.
Applying a real world lense of morality for a video game is hilarious and is something this game should MASSIVELY refrain from. Asking if something is fun will lead to a significantly better game.
i get your point but it depends on the game...not every game showers you with better gear every 30 mins
Inventing is not the exact same thing as crafting.
Ashes is not really making a "Crafting" game, rather they are making an RPG that includes some Crafting.
And, the devs are not trying to be innovative about Crafting mechanics.
You might still get what you want... especially if what you want are SWG Crafting mechanics.
I don't necessarly want SWG mechanism, i just want a real craft, not a WoW-one-clic-craft where all final products are the same.
It's just pathetic or don't call it a crafting system...
Ashes will probably not have all final products being the same exactly, the crafter has some control over the attributes of their crafted item.
So it's like Throne and Liberty because of the variation in individual, but probably better if it isn't just RNG. Ashes will probably let you substitute certain materials.
The part of the game that is likely to affect what attributes a Crafter's work has, is the Node Economy, which is one of the main features of Ashes of Creation. So, two Crafters with the same level, in the same Node, using the same workstation and the same materials, might make the same items. But the world will have many Nodes, different materials, and different workstations.
its important to me that i am able to identify what weapon my enemies are wearing. if every weapon looks different, how can i tell? but i guess only pvpers care about this.
also, if you watch larping or whatever, or maybe a medieval movie, can you distinguish 2 swords or 2 armors of the same type from soldiers in an army. i mean i dont know if in the middle age people could look at one sword in battle and tell that it was made by this x dude. maybe the hilt was a giveaway, who knows. you would probably need closer and detailed inspection, maybe something like appraisers do nowadays to be able to tell
I would like to give an alternative point of view based on my own crafting motives. I prefer simple crafting mechanics which allow me to produce items which will sell repeatedly and provide income for other aspects of gameplay. Having spent many hours crafting, on multiple alt toons to achieve the income needed, this is one of my least favorite ways to spend gaming time but is also a necessary evil. I'm hoping to craft in AoC to fund operations but do not want that to be all that I do because the systems are stretched out in process or are too grindy.
But wouldn't you therefore prefer not to craft at all and make money in a different way?
Sure, it's a totally valid point of view for most games that don't actually offer any good ways to make money through those other operations, but assuming that Ashes isn't a game full of 'mandatory lifeskillers', why would you craft at all?
Not at all, no matter the meta if you have several parameters involved in the crafting system like i explained at start.
"a lot of what you've said is actually pretty similar to how New World's crafting works. You get a range for the primary stat that can be influenced by your crafting ability and adding optional crafting materials, secondary stats/buffs that can be added with optional materials, and there are randomized tertiary stats/buffs that have a chance to be added with a material that can increase that chance"
I play(ed) New World and all my crafting skills are 250 (and +).
You customize just by selecting perks on the item and the ressource swap just improved quality by fixed stept but if you use max ressources (prismatic ones) and the "best" perks of the moment, you 'll have clones object GS700...
And the consequence of that, is that the economy is broken...Items cost less than materials (execpt for matrix items).
" I would like to give an alternative point of view based on my own crafting motives. I prefer simple crafting mechanics which allow me to produce items which will sell repeatedly and provide income for other aspects of gameplay. Having spent many hours crafting, on multiple alt toons to achieve the income needed, this is one of my least favorite ways to spend gaming time but is also a necessary evil. I'm hoping to craft in AoC to fund operations but do not want that to be all that I do because the systems are stretched out in process or are too grindy."
I understand your point but for me, you're not what i call a crafter.
Just as example, in SWG, i was armorsmith and weaponsmith...
I did only that, it took all my time, find news ressources ( ressources popped every 4-7 days and stats were random on each ressources), to collect them, experiment with ressources, wait for a critical succes and save my schematic ( that you put in a factory, with the precise ressources you used), etc..
I fought very few, i had suppliers for ressources gathering in hard zones.
To resume, my view is that ALL activities should take big time to arrive at the best !
I was one of the 3 best armorsmith of my server but i never could do that if i had fought and do others stuffs...
And with all my game time, i couldn't be in the top 5 in weaponsmith too, i had to choose !
It's the difference between Arcade and Simulation...
SWG/Everquest, Asheron cAll, Ultima Online and more: Simulation
Wow and wow like: arcade, for people wanting everything without spending all their time on it...
OMG WHY CANT YOU USE THE QUOTING OPTION IN THE FORUM LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.