Increasing concerns about community suggested scope creep

Liniker

I'd like to voice my concerns about this, maybe others might share the same thoughts,

I have a feeling after every livestream with community feedback on the forums, office hours, and content creators that people don't really think about scope creep and don't appear to worry about pushing this game for a 2030 release with the sheer amount of details, gameplay layers, complexity that they want to see in every single system that is showcased,

using this latest artisan showcase just as an example, I was watching a Narc video and the guy is suggesting Intrepid to add a unique gameplay layer each of the 22 professions as well as real-time interaction with people being able to interact and see the minigame plus he doesn't like that we only have 3 pieces of artisan gear he wants a full 8 piece set for all the professions, he wants a skill trees with unique path specialization for each profession etc etc

and all I can think about besides a big no for crafting minigames/gameplay layers is jesus.. this game is already so huge in scope and theres still so much to develop, imagine if Intrepid starts taking a lot of this feedback from what players want to see in the game, isn't that what started to happen with Star Citizen like 10 years ago?

this isn't just about this artisan stream, I got the same concerns when I was reading/watching stuff when nodes were showcased, the event system, caravans and freeholds, theres always so many things being asked and no thoughts about how this would impact development time/cost, but with that said,

I hope Intrepid can keep a realistic approach to these systems and keep scope creep in mind, you don't need to make the most complex, ground-breaking MMO with every system being extremely detailed, just make a good game, deliver a core viable product that has solid systems and fun gameplay loops, no P2W and staff that actually perma-ban cheaters/RMTers and thats it, expansions will make the game better with time and expand the systems,

the road for trying to make everyone happy and developing all these crazy complex systems is long and dangerous, but hopefully the team is aware of this

Enigmatic Sage

That is how open development and community brainstorming works
Idea's for launch and post launch.

Liniker

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

That is how open development and community brainstorming works
Idea's for launch and post launch.

yea but I'm specifically talking about suggestions people make are making right now for what they want at launch, in most cases expressing why Intrepid's ideas are bad and why they should change to X, Y and Z

Raven016

Liniker wrote: »

I was watching a Narc video and the guy is suggesting Intrepid to add a unique gameplay layer each of the 22 professions

Do we need 22 boring professions?
How about removing half of them?

patrick68794

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the community talking about things they'd like to see, features they'd like added, existing features they'd like more complexity added to, or anything else along those lines. This is actually exactly why Intrepid is developing the game the way they are, so they can get all of that feedback from the players and decide internally what is possible or worth the dev time and effort. That isn't for you, or anyone in the community, to decide and one of the worst things we can do as a community is to try and stop others from expressing their ideas or giving feedback.

There is a world of difference between talking about something you'd like to see or giving a suggestion about something you'd like changed and expecting the developers to act on that feedback.

Enigmatic Sage

Liniker wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

That is how open development and community brainstorming works
Idea's for launch and post launch.

yea but I'm specifically talking about suggestions people make are making right now for what they want at launch, in most cases expressing why Intrepid's ideas are bad and why they should change to X, Y and Z

They're just expressing their idea's just like many have before and could down the time-line. Dont worry I get it

Ludullu

The only thing I'm concerned in relation to this is the overblown expectations of people, which will be inevitably crushed on release and people will call the game shit/scam/failure/doa/etc.

I'd prefer if Intrepid put way harder limits on what they wanna do, but most of the time I go from thinking "do THEY even know those limits?" to "they've promised open development + listening to the audience, so they can't just tell people to fuck themselves and their suggestions".

Azherae

At the core, if Ashes is not ambitious enough, then the things that make it appealing won't stand much chance in the upcoming storm of MMOs.

Definitely a precarious position to be in, given the delays, and the fact that the appeal of Nodes themselves is dependent on so many other things, for many people.

Hopefully (for the sake of Ashes) AA2 will also be delayed or less ambitious.

Liniker

patrick68794 wrote: »

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the community talking about things they'd like to see, features they'd like added, existing features they'd like more complexity added to, or anything else along those lines. This is actually exactly why Intrepid is developing the game the way they are, so they can get all of that feedback from the players and decide internally what is possible or worth the dev time and effort. That isn't for you, or anyone in the community, to decide and one of the worst things we can do as a community is to try and stop others from expressing their ideas or giving feedback.

There is a world of difference between talking about something you'd like to see or giving a suggestion about something you'd like changed and expecting the developers to act on that feedback.

yea... see, thats the exact same thing that you will hear in star ctizien's reddit/forums whenever you raise concerns about scope creep, their community is ok with crazy complex ideas being added left right and center and theres no one pushing the breaks and saying maybe we should stop with all these suggestions and start asking devs for the game to come out in the next 10 years ahah

I'm not saying thats case here, intrepid has been doing a good job of keeping the scope realistic while taking feedback, I'm just sharing that I hope that stays the same

Liniker

Azherae wrote: »

Hopefully (for the sake of Ashes) AA2 will also be delayed or less ambitious.

I think AA2 is completely out after they said the game is not following AA1 steps, and is now going to focus on console and single-player experience, that's the opposite target audience that AoC is going for,

maybe FF14 or Genshin might compete with AA2 but again... AA2 is from Kakao so..

JustVine

It's literally called Intrepid Studios. It isn't 'let's be reasonable all the time' studios. Intrepid capture the hearts and imaginations of players before even having a product because of their ambition and vision. Intrepid is full of dreamers wanting to deliver a high quality experience and they similarly have attracted other dreamers wanting to give their love, support, and feedback. Let IS handle their schedule and resources. That is their job. It's our job to help them dream and feel inspired. Give and take.

patrick68794

Liniker wrote: »

patrick68794 wrote: »

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the community talking about things they'd like to see, features they'd like added, existing features they'd like more complexity added to, or anything else along those lines. This is actually exactly why Intrepid is developing the game the way they are, so they can get all of that feedback from the players and decide internally what is possible or worth the dev time and effort. That isn't for you, or anyone in the community, to decide and one of the worst things we can do as a community is to try and stop others from expressing their ideas or giving feedback.

There is a world of difference between talking about something you'd like to see or giving a suggestion about something you'd like changed and expecting the developers to act on that feedback.

yea... see, thats the exact same thing that you will hear in star ctizien's reddit/forums whenever you raise concerns about scope creep, their community is ok with crazy complex ideas being added left right and center and theres no one pushing the breaks and saying maybe we should stop with all these suggestions and start asking devs for the game to come out in the next 10 years ahah

I'm not saying thats case here, intrepid has been doing a good job of keeping the scope realistic while taking feedback, I'm just sharing that I hope that stays the same

That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it's perfectly okay for the community to talk about wanted features and changes, and to provide feedback and suggestions. Not that every idea or suggestion should be added or that the community should be okay with all of that being added. It should be up to Intrepid to decide what ultimately goes into the game, but the role of the community in open development like this is specifically to provide feedback and ideas. I get that filtering through that feedback can be a daunting task for the studio but this is specifically what they were wanting from the community when choosing this development approach. The community absolutely should not stop with suggestions or feedback. Intrepid just needs to know when to put their foot down and not just say yes to everything.

SongRune

I'd be far more concerned if I didn't believe Intrepid was listening to this type of feedback and weighing it appropriately. A bit of what you've mentioned could be a stretch, but a lot of it is just 'the basics' or things that don't take that much time. If you don't trust Intrepid to manage their own scope, Ashes is already a lost cause. Intrepid needs people who are willing to say things like this in order to inform their direction, and understand which of various styles of gameplay their community is interested in. They will face a lot of choices along the path to a fully-featured MMO, both in what is worth spending time on (or not), and what direction to take innumerable different designs. Trying to suppress that discourse can only harm Intrepid and guide them toward a shallow game that is largely disconnected from the interests of its community. If all you want is a WOW clone, I'm sure there will be enough of those to play in 2025, much less 2030.

Kilion

While I agree that there is a risk of scope creep when firing off ideas, I think especially in case of professions the calls for a lot of depth is reasonable given the fact that professions are one of the most important features in the gameplay loop. Yes, it takes a lot of time to realize diverse systems and yes, the don't need to be 100% unique - but at least in my opinion the systems players engage with the most should also be systems the developer spends a lot of time designing and should make complex enough for us to be excited for and challenged by.

With all that back and forth I would "suggest" this: The Alpha 2 will run for a considerable amount of time. Seeing how big chunks of the game will still be missing, Intrepid should at some point hold adding new artisan content and see how engagement with the systems develops. If they find that certain professions become ignored or rarely practiced they can question the testers on why their engagement has dropped off and go from there.

Will this be a slow process? Yes. Is it a necessary process? If we want the whole artisan gameplay cycles to feel rewarding instead of just important but somewhat annying chorse, then yes, I think that time should be invested even if it means that the game takes longer to finish.

SunScript

You're obviously not the only one who has learned from the tale of Star Citizen on the internet, lol.

I'm sure you're used to being called the smartest most thoughtful person around by your personal guild or whatever, but outside of your own bubble that kind of perspective is so many steps behind the real world...

Just as a reminder, Intrepid constantly has to consider things like how their Alphas match up to new game releases, payroll, flow of money in general, the ever shrinking niche they can carve out for themselves due to new MMOs coming out and so many other things. There is literally no one who is in a better position to viscerally feel the risk of additional delays than Intrepid themselves, on a daily basis. It's kind of insulting to assume they don't share these worries already.

SkylarckTheBotanist

I think we just need to hope and trust Steven can stand firm on his vision. If feedback goes against his vision no matter how little or big scope creep there is we must trust he will say no. If feedback aligns with his vision but was not currently planned, that is part of development processes that needs to be weighed (time/effort vs value).

On your specific question about the full set of artisan gear, according to a dev in twitch chat a few weeks back, this was pitched during ideation but Steven said no (for reasons not known to us). Just an example of even internal scope creep being every present but Steven needing to stay strong as the Creative Director.

JamesSunderland

Liniker wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Hopefully (for the sake of Ashes) AA2 will also be delayed or less ambitious.

I think AA2 is completely out after they said the game is not following AA1 steps, and is now going to focus on console and single-player experience, that's the opposite target audience that AoC is going for,

maybe FF14 or Genshin might compete with AA2 but again... AA2 is from Kakao so..

ngl, after reading about AA2's focus on the "console and single-player experience","abandoning Large-Scale PVP" and "straying away from AA1" it greatly diminished my expectations for AA2.

Depraved

patrick68794 wrote: »

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the community talking about things they'd like to see, features they'd like added, existing features they'd like more complexity added to, or anything else along those lines. This is actually exactly why Intrepid is developing the game the way they are, so they can get all of that feedback from the players and decide internally what is possible or worth the dev time and effort. That isn't for you, or anyone in the community, to decide and one of the worst things we can do as a community is to try and stop others from expressing their ideas or giving feedback.

There is a world of difference between talking about something you'd like to see or giving a suggestion about something you'd like changed and expecting the developers to act on that feedback.

i agree with you, but many of the ideas here are kind of bad. also a lot of people post things like "this is my idea, if its not implemented, the game will fail blah blah boo whoo". imagine thinking the game will fail because your idea wasnt implemented XD

patrick68794

Depraved wrote: »

patrick68794 wrote: »

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the community talking about things they'd like to see, features they'd like added, existing features they'd like more complexity added to, or anything else along those lines. This is actually exactly why Intrepid is developing the game the way they are, so they can get all of that feedback from the players and decide internally what is possible or worth the dev time and effort. That isn't for you, or anyone in the community, to decide and one of the worst things we can do as a community is to try and stop others from expressing their ideas or giving feedback.

There is a world of difference between talking about something you'd like to see or giving a suggestion about something you'd like changed and expecting the developers to act on that feedback.

i agree with you, but many of the ideas here are kind of bad. also a lot of people post things like "this is my idea, if its not implemented, the game will fail blah blah boo whoo". imagine thinking the game will fail because your idea wasnt implemented XD

Yeah, there are definitely a lot of bad ideas, useless feedback, and people that are just full of themselves lol I'd take that being present and Intrepid just ignoring that stuff than them not wanting users to provide feedback or suggestions at all though. I get that people don't want the game to increase in scope so dramatically that it basically never releases but ultimately that comes down to project management and is going to happen regardless of if that scope creep is the result of user feedback being added, developer feedback being added, or any of the AoC leadership just deciding that they want to add a new feature or mechanic because it seems neat

Voeltz

Well if it isn't the monthly 'don't listen to anyone's feedback except for mine' thread. Often times developers will encourage feedback and suggestions to make it seem like they care, but they really don't and will proceed with their own plans regardless. This is the first time I've ever seen a Developer genuinely care and take peoples ideas or feedback into account. That's the only reason I started posting here. They listen. More feedback is better than less or none. You should be glad they're not disregarding their supporters. Imagine if they ignored everyone and went full steam ahead on their plans whether they were bad or good. The game would end up a train wreck like every other studio that does so. It's impossible to know what your target audience wants at every turn without data, that's what feedback is all about. They seem to do a pretty good job of filtering through it so far. Entire systems have been reworked as a result of feedback for the better. It's up to the developers to make changes based on certain feedback or not, that's their decision. The project wouldn't have gotten this far without Steven's vision and decision making. Have a little faith

nanfoodle

Scope creep is not Ashes problem. This is the most ambitious project I have seen in my 20+ years of MMOing. Size and scope. Directing that in the way the community is looking for. Not taking every idea. But building on the projects direction with community input. Is how you succeed. IMO this is one area Steven has done very well. Disregarding input that dose not fit into the direction of the vision and taking what does. Games like this, are done when they are done. You can't rush games like this.

AnimusRex

Another case of the OP saying to Steven - "Listen to me, but not all the peasants out there."

From Day 1, Steven has explicitly stated or strongly implied.

1. We will have the most open development you've ever seen.
2. We will relentlessly request and expect player feedback and suggestions.
3. We are making a game WE want to play, based on our own MMO experience, and hope others will too (based on No 2.).
4. We will take our sweet time and get it right before launch.
5. It will not contain p2w elements and minimal monetization.
6. AOC is a flagship development of an independent studio, and hopefully it's success will spawn future developments.
7 Based on all above, it will change/revitalize the dead and dying MMO landscape.

What I really HAVENT heard him state are qualifiers on feedback. I'm sure there are present internally in the studio and in Steven's mind, but I'm equally sure they can handle the filtering process. We have to trust in that because that's where our choices end.

Its a free market of community ideas. The bad ones wont sell and will die away. Good ones will rise to the top. If there are some outliers of craziness, well that's free speech for you.

Lets not go all Russian/North Korean here, because all you''ll get are empty shelves or too much of what you don't want.

Solvryn

I’m not worried, the game being good at launch is more important than the wait or peoples attention span.

Liniker

AnimusRex wrote: »

Another case of the OP saying to Steven - "Listen to me, but not all the peasants out there."

where tf did I say that?

AnimusRex wrote: »

From Day 1, Steven has explicitly stated or strongly implied.

1. We will have the most open development you've ever seen.

ehh I'm not sure about that, its not the most open development at all, they literally have NDA testing phases and don't show/tell us a bunch of stuff - which is good

SunScript wrote: »

I'm sure you're used to being called the smartest most thoughtful person around by your personal guild or whatever, but outside of your own bubble that kind of perspective is so many steps behind the real world...

yea and from that comment, I'm sure no one ever called you that, at all

Liniker

NiKr wrote: »

The only thing I'm concerned in relation to this is the overblown expectations of people, which will be inevitably crushed on release and people will call the game shit/scam/failure/doa/etc.

yea, and that's hard to handle because people will make their own unrealistic expectations regardless of what they do/say

SongRune wrote: »

If you don't trust Intrepid to manage their own scope, Ashes is already a lost cause. Intrepid needs people who are willing to say things like this in order to inform their direction, and understand which of various styles of gameplay their community is interested in.

I get what you are saying, at the same time, the game is not out yet, so the "community" is built from all kinds of players that in the end, many are not going to be the target audience, but for now they think they are, and everyone wants this game to be their dream mmo which it can never be,

I think there is a reason why other studios struggle so much with community feedback, scope and identity, its not something easy to handle

MybroViajero

JustVine wrote: »

It's literally called Intrepid Studios. It isn't 'let's be reasonable all the time' studios. Intrepid capture the hearts and imaginations of players before even having a product because of their ambition and vision. Intrepid is full of dreamers wanting to deliver a high quality experience and they similarly have attracted other dreamers wanting to give their love, support, and feedback. Let IS handle their schedule and resources. That is their job. It's our job to help them dream and feel inspired. Give and take.

Xejo

+1

I’m a firm believer that “we listen to our players” used to be a badge of honor for developers. But over time it became more important than the basics of project management. Developers these days, in my opinion, are too afraid to step up to their communities and say, “this is our game, our vision, our goal… we welcome you to join us, or not.”

I long for developers to be firm, even if I don’t like it. They are the experts. Not us. Far too many crap games released, especially MMOs because Devs tried to juggle the impossible expectations from every forum post. And I don’t want to hear “well, if they don’t listen to us, they won’t have any subscribers”… I’d ask anyone who thinks that to define who “us” is. We players can’t agree on a damn thing. The devs need to provide the direction of a game… not the players.

Solvryn

Xejo wrote: »

+1

I’m a firm believer that “we listen to our players” used to be a badge of honor for developers. But over time it became more important than the basics of project management. Developers these days, in my opinion, are too afraid to step up to their communities and say, “this is our game, our vision, our goal… we welcome you to join us, or not.”

I long for developers to be firm, even if I don’t like it. They are the experts. Not us. Far too many crap games released, especially MMOs because Devs tried to juggle the impossible expectations from every forum post. And I don’t want to hear “well, if they don’t listen to us, they won’t have any subscribers”… I’d ask anyone who thinks that to define who “us” is. We players can’t agree on a damn thing. The devs need to provide the direction of a game… not the players.

There are plenty of devs that are not gamers.

There are plenty of devs who are not veterans gamers.

There are plenty of devs who are not top tier PvPers, PvErs, Econ and Logistic players.

Yes, they may better at the coding portion, but they may not be as experienced in the gaming side.

Raven016

Liniker wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Hopefully (for the sake of Ashes) AA2 will also be delayed or less ambitious.

I think AA2 is completely out after they said the game is not following AA1 steps, and is now going to focus on console and single-player experience, that's the opposite target audience that AoC is going for,

maybe FF14 or Genshin might compete with AA2 but again... AA2 is from Kakao so..

Having bad or no competition is not an excuse to make an average game.

Trickster

Honestly I think ideas are always good, you don't need to implement them imediatelly, the things could change thru the years, after the release, or expansions... Which I truly believe every game after a few years needs some sort of expansion, and I'm sure all the idea given will be sorted out the best ones to a future update

Also its up to the company to not over work on stuff at the beginning of the game... Surely they know when to draw a line to what they can do now and what they might do in the future

Caww

Whether or not it is called scoop creep or improving the game before launch, I would prefer AoC spend extra time initially getting their systems as polished and complete as possible so we don't have to endure the usual droning from, generically, game developers explaining "We'll address that issue (insert item) in a future update". In the meantime we are stuck playing a broken/flawed process detracting from our quality time in-game, sometimes for many months or longer (we all know what I'm talking about).