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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
You have lost the plot, gameplay revolving around standing up together after you lose to fight to all fight again is just bad design in pvp. It be littles other elements and the standard becomes when you die you just come back and fight again with everyone getting a get out of jail free card.
The moment a skill becomes so powerful you need to run it no matter what and every single player is running the exact same thing over any other combination is already a telling issue. If clerics have a mass res, other classes need to of kits of similar power to balance it out. So we going to give a wizard a power word skill on a group to one shot people as well?
Again im going to point out you are talking about people losing a fight and needing to mass rez after wiping to win a fight...
I could do more details but i feel needing to explain why mass res / guild res is bad should be common sense. I shouldn't have to put up a ton of effort to explain that with all the other elements it affects.
The rez doesn't bring you back to full (at 1:23 you can see that the character stands up with 70% hp and with the same mp), so it's just your, mostly, last chance to try and turn things around. Considering bards will exist in Ashes, I'd imagine that their buffs would also not return on rez, so you're coming back at even lower power.
Though even then, I'd definitely agree that L2's range on mass rez was a bit too big. And this also relates to huge zerg multi-guilds. I'd definitely want mass rez to only work on guild members, so any zerg that has multiple guilds on the battlefield would be disadvantaged even more.
My point is, I want pvp to potentially go till your resources run out (either due to enemy actions or your own). Rezzless pvp will just mean "whoever shoots first - wins". Mana will have less of an impact because most of the time you'd barely use any of it (unless Intrepid decide to let us only use a few abilities per full bar). And to me it just seems like shitty pvp design.
THere is no difference between 70% or 100% when you are coming back to life. And those players need to use their limited amount of skills again on those players. It still isn't good design for a few clerics to be like ok lets rez 30 people back instantly.
Game design should not revolve around losing a fight and coming back to life again in mass. If such a skill is in the game that mean gameplay will revolve around it and it will be one of the most boring metas.
Shooting first shouldn't mean you win, we have end game sieges where you are pushing into castles and such. Team buffs, team defensive skills, defensive skills, body blocking, strategies should all be applied in wars. So it isn't amount rng nuke or first attack and they are going to lose the fight. This is why I always talk about having skill involved is important physical skill and mental skill.
It means the strategy of playing your life becomes important and again you aren't getting a get out of jail free card. Mass rez is just a terrible mechanic for pvp.
If we are talking about out of combat with a higher lvl cleric doing a group rez that is fine for me.
Also, "gameplay will revolve around this skill" can be said about any ability. Aoes, heals, defense buffs, attack buffs, etc. All of those will be played around and against. Rez would just be the next in the line of tools that people can use. And mass rez just means that the presumed winner shouldn't relax until the ground is clear of bodies.
Either way, we have different povs on good pvp, so we'll just have to see which side Intrepid prefers.
you may be right when you think abou tthis issue in solation, but the thing is you cant think about this issue in isolation.
resurrecting in l2 means you have no buffs and having no buffs means you are...well basically you dont exist in the fight anymore. when you consider that, mass res isnt bad.
also, you couldnt mas res in castle sieges. it was basically used mostly for boss fights and pvp. it was also not spammable.
id say that it was a bit annoying if you were inside one of the instanced epic bosses, but those bosses took long to be killed, so by the time any1 ressed they would have no buffs and they would be non existant in the fight.
regarding the meta...it doesnt matter because the class that had it was the healer so you would have to include that class in your party anyways. also nothing wrong with a party composition meta.
so yeah in terms of wow, eso, gw, etc a mass res wouldnt be a good thing. in terms of l2 its whatever. its only ok in a few specific circumstances, and the enemy can do it too anyways.
This is AoC though this is not L2, this game is going to be different with different balancing. Issues and challenges related to L2 are not going to be copy pasted as AoC has their own designers. Something thigns will be easier some things will be more difficult. I feel you will be very effective after a rez in AoC but I also don't expect mass combat rez.
Meta is a huge issue with the class customization and choices that AoC is showing. IE i healer/healer was only one that had mass combat rez than instantly people will want that class more than any other. Effectively making more dead classes or people complain and tell you to reroll.
@NiKr That isn't fight to me, if you die and lose that is your own fault and skill. You shouldn't get a freebee because you didn't use ur mana, cd, etc because you played badly and lost a fight. We aren't fighting zombies where you are just mindlessly throwing things out til you have nothing left. Fights need to have strategy and and be more thought out. When it is just throwing all your resources until nothing is left that sounds very dry.
And old school in the worse of ways being generic (Does not mean old games were like this btw talking about a bad element though). Which is why im surprised to see you are talking about things being hype when this gives me a vibe of to meat shields using all their skills without consequence kind of vibe. Needing to play right so you have a chance to use your resources sounds like it would keep you on your toes much more.
We do but I've played old games / new games and AoC is going to be a new Modern mmorpg. That kind of reasoning isn't what allows mass rez to be in their design, let alone guild rez whatever that is suppose to mean o.O. Old mmorpg tended to have a lot more broken types of abilities that dont' really fly in the modern age of gaming.
yes, exactly! thats my point. a mechanic might be a bad idea or not depending on the game. if buffs are as necessary as they wer ein l2, a mass res or even just a party res might not be a bad idea, because you might be alive but you are useless until you rebuff and you can die to a random aoe in that time. if buffs arent that important in aoc, then mas res will probs not be a big deal.
im not saying we should have mass res in aoc, im just saying that it wasnt that bad in l2. most of the time it was an extra pvp point for the person who killed you xD
agree
You should be dead on the ground and that is their strategy if they even managed to pull that off for whatever reason with your team straight up ignoring it the entire time as you were being attacked from multiple hits. (at that point it is deserved)
If one person is dead i don't have any issue with a combat rez on one person. That situation is not the same as bringing back like 30 dead people back to life.
Aoes will be wiping people left and right. Aoes from zergs will be doing so x10 harder to smaller groups. So w/o a mass a stronger-gear, but smaller in numbers, group would usually lose to a weak-gear zerg, simply because the math doesn't add up. Kiting the zerg for 1h just in hopes that they get tired is cute and all, but to me that's way more boring than just having a big rez once every 10 minutes from a singular healer. Hell, I'd be ok with a synergystic multi-healer rez, where one healer can rez his party, but in order to rez more than one party several healers gotta do some coordinated action.
I want pvp to be long and till the very last resource, rezzes included because they're the same tool as a heal or a mana burn. Here's an example of what I consider the best form of pvp. First video is from the pov of an outsider (Xab3r's visual on the left and Multya's on the right get bugged throughout the video) and the second one is the pov of one of the sides.
It's a 30-minute brawl between best melee and best archer packs on the server. Constant rezzes, buff removals and rebuffs, mana burns, stuns/anchors/sleeps (sleep working same as AoC's current one, except single taget), etc. This is a single fight with a ton of deaths (mostly from the healers, cause they're the highest value targets). Resurrection to me is just part of the fight, so it seems only logical to have a mass rez too, it just being more expensive and with a much higher cd.
Again if rogues kill you you die, that is not a reason for mass rez in any game. Also AoC is not L2 they do not have the same designs or class make ups. So we can't really go with al these assumptions not to mention there isn't going to be perfects invisibility in this game. If rogues pop up they are even more venerable at that point and not invis awhile attacking.
Long for the sake of being long does not make good content. A fight needs to be in waves with high and lower points, just because you lose a fight does not mean the battle is done. Your team rezes and you go again and try to push more ground.
Prolonging a stale fight does not make anything exciting, maybe this was more fine (mass rex) for linage style game play but again AoC is AoC. The gameplay is going to be modern and have its own design, issues and strengths. What worked in linage does not mean it works in AoC because linage like shadowbane and other mmorpgs were more like strategy games with very slow and clunky movement. Which can effect a lot on gameplay on top of other things.
Teams and groups will be wiped, the winning side will get breaks and people will group up and attack again. A single fight isn't going to be last forever without breaks until people run out of resources. That sounds like more in line like a strategy game in feeling. Winning side should be able to relish the moment, do some content before expecting the next attack.
When we are talking about modern fights people won't want old age long drawn out fights where not much is going on where they are forced to pvp slow stale content.
And AoC's current combat speed is not much higher than L2's, so the difference is not as big as you make it out to be. And potentially AoC's fights will be even longer, cause ttk will be longer than L2's. Obviously we don't know how it all end up, cause people will be yelling their own preferences at Intrepid, but so far the promises have been directed at longer back & forth fights than even L2 had.
Yeah, and I want that break to come after a long fight rather than a quick exchange of singular hits. Regroup/rebuff/repositioning will most likely take 5+ minutes for even the well-coordinated groups, especially if the fight happened somewhere deep in the dungeon. So having a 30s party vs party fight in-between several-minute breaks seems more boring to me than a several-minute high-action battle in-between those same breaks.
Either way, we won't see the same because we come from different games, so we'll have to see what Steven decides, considering he comes from the older games as well.
Looking at L2 and AoC there is huge differences, and that is going to only become more apparent as everyone experiences more of the combat once A2 starts. I feel you are going to be in for more of shock if you are expecting a old style game, modern games do not play like them. Looking at both gameplay side by side you can point out a ton of big differences that effect the overall design of gameplay. One you can see has more of a action feeling (akin to modern mmorpgs) one is more of a strategy game feeling (akin to old mmorpgs) long story short. So there is no way in hell with a big difference like that you are going to see the same gameplay as L2 design wise.
Taking inspiration from older mmorpgs does not mean AoC is a old mmorpg and something i feel people keep getting mixed up. Pantheon: rise of the fallen is going that direction to play like a older mmorpg and not modern.
THe system that made up L2, archage, with PvP, gear drops, other hardcore elements, leveling, xp loss, meaningful choices, etc are elements that being talked about. They aren't saying we are going to make the same static type combat, and why they are pushing and taking feedback and going int heir OWN direction of combat that is AoC combat and not L2 combat. Which means you are going to see much faster fights and people won't be lingering as much. The type of design does not really lean towards fighting non stop, which to me isn't' really strategy its pvp that is lacking depth if you don't need to adjust and set up back up again and can just run in and fight. (IE Nw as an example in a siege fight if you just jump back into a fight without grouping up you aren't doing anything and your spawns/fights will be just staggered / ineffective)
The thing is that is what you want but you are not thinking about modern game design which is every sign AoC is going for which for most people will be more enjoyable. Even their pvp system though from L2 there is a lot of pve friendly elements to protect people.
Unless Steven does a 180 on that design direction - I don't see AoC's pvp being shorter than L2's. Well, there's a chance that 1 ability eats 20% mana, so you physically won't be able to fight for too long, but then we have a whole different issue on our hands.
We will have a rougher idea what they are going for when alpha 2 starts. One thing is to say it years ago, one thing is to see what they decide to do. And i have a strong feeling the time frame isn't going to be standing still smacking each other.
Not to mention point earlier was rogues killing you before u can react which sounds like 5 sec ttk
I'd personally consider it a pretty big shift in design direction if they go back on this particular promise. Cause a long ttk means a certain combat design and balancing. And I've been discussing pvp exactly because I tried basing my arguments around roughly 1.5 times of L2's ttk (which might be still shorter than the stated 30s-1m).
In other words, you're just a zoomer who wants flashy 1s fights
Honestly don't see how that support mass rez from a few people being ganked.
Their number is rough but there are a lot of variables. Ie tank but be able to soak a lot of dmg and have a long ttk, but does that time including healing, etc as well. That could be someone playing really well with a lot of blocks and knowing what skills to dodge.
Where ranger being more of a glass cannon will die a lot more quickly but their mobility is taken into consideration so it would have a skill element to balance out. And reach towards that ttk based again on player skill.
Though players will be getting dmg out a lot faster than older mmorpgs so that fight could be similar in length yet faster because players are doing more skills that do significant dmg.
Anyway the point is expecting things to be the same as a old mmorpg with all the signs its modern is most like nostalgia making you hope it plays the same so you can relive old days. But realistically those old days are bad gameplay wise on a modern game is what people want combat / gameplay wise.
So again mass combat rez I can't agree with, that like a broken old skill. I understand you need buffs and could lose buffs on death but there is a chance you might not lose buffs or all buffs on death, there is a chance apply buffs won't be that difficult. That seems like a whole grey area to bank on why mass rez works. On top of i have a feeling they aren't going to make that layer of gameplay with buffs overcomplicated, that is not exactly fun gameplay for general people.
Ya they is going to be some hardcore elements in the game but they are not going to multiple layer it so hard and lock out majority of players to make the game extra difficult in all avenues just for the sake of it and lose money. Their corruption system as harsh as it is is the biggest element to show that. And i feel they might end up tuning it higher but we will see.
Alternatively buffs could be very short in duration, but then they'd be the exact difficult thing you were talking about, because people would have to micromanage their mana/cds/casts against any given situation.
So as Depraved has been saying, if buffs are even semi-important (and to me the existence of the Bard archetype kinda says they are) - mass rez will not be that big of a thing, because the chances are that buffs won't stay through death. And at that point rezzes will be the tool of the strong to fight the many, because a buffless zerg standing up after a mass rez would be, as Depraved said, a +X to the strong's pvp counter.
i hope buffs are important and also short. i really dont wanna see people running around with 3 alt accounts fully buffing themselves and being a one man party xD
but i remember steven saying people will have about 30 buffs at the same time, so maybe they wont be very short lived x.x or the bard has to be constantly pressing all his skills non stop
Ok than buffs will be easy and you won't need a hour prep time for buffs. So to me mass rez with easy buffs sounds cancer. Based on game design I don't see mass combat rez being a thing. I've already pointed out elements that give more evidence towards that (there are more as well but again i shouldn't need to explain every detail).
With this game not having 40 skill being used at same time with player choice to focus on less skills over more and not have a ui screen full of abilities. This does not seem to be leaning towards a bunch of buffs that players can cast that have limited times (unless they are like bdo and linked to ability attacks). Expectations that are realistic is certain classes will have buffs and fast it on parties (maybe more around bard though and that si where their importance comes). If buffs are on short timers I see no difference in how that affects mass rez, you use mobility and move away faster than old mmorpgs and are fighting very shortly or instantly as they buff and on rez.. Again Mass rez is not a good design, that is a broken level ability.
Minus depraved i feel you guys have not played a proper pvp mmorpg in like a looooong time. You think large guilds are going to be brainless zergs that don't know what the are doing. And not one of the strongest guilds that keeps people and has good organizers, shot callers and some of the best players. And think we are going to stick it to the large guilds and one up them. You literally will not.
That is the good point about AoC since the competitive sieges are player number locked so you can't bring more to win the fight. If you are trying to beat a larger guild in OW You need Numbers > Gear > Skill (if things are more even not talking about a zerg of lvl 20's). So making connections, alliances, etc.
Everything i have seen so far and the vibe I get seems to be very normal in mmorpgs. To the point this talk about rezing 30 people at once or more sounds ridiculous. Both sides having it sounds like the most defeatist and boring meta I've ever heard.
"Ya we lost the last fight but we just revive and win this fight since they are on CD at the moment. We lose the next fight when their revive is up though"
Spawn management should be a important factor for groups to respect properly engaging and keeping balance fair for attackers and defenders. Mass rez would be a issue.
Those strong coordinated guilds is exactly who I want to benefit from the mass rez, because they'll utilize that tool to its max potential against the very zerg I'm talking about. There's been a ton of talk about anti-zerg mechanics, and to me mass rez is exactly one of those.
Mass rez is not a answer to zergs that is just a over power skill that ruins actual strategy and becomes a meta overpowered ability.
Strong coordinated zerg guilds becomes even more powerful by being able to use mass rez does not make any sense. Mass rez is not a anti zerg guild mechanics that literarily empowers zerg guilds...Even more so in the modern age. This is why I was asking if you have been playing pvp wars in the current mmorpgs that have had them.
Are there even party-based mmos out there? Especially ones with over-3s ttk. BDO is a solo mmo with quick ttk based on "who gets their cc off first". ESO is the same afaik. Albion has a low ttk as well. I haven't followed NW's changes, so I dunno if their pvp started to rely more on party play rather than just a ball of people aoeing each other. TL, from little that I've seen, seemed like a "tp and rush" game.
None of those seem to go for the same design that Ashes supposedly will. But I feel like we have a wildly different povs on what exactly Ashes will end up like. You think it's gonna be a new mmo, while I think it's gonna be the oldest mmo around.
And I've seen well-coordinated big groups before (back in 2004-6 through mid 10s). They didn't win because they had a single spell on their side, they won because they were well-coordinated. If Ashes only has such groups - all the power to them. And as I've said already, I'd be way more hyped to see a battle "to the very end" between such groups, rather than seeing constant breaking waves of attacks from either side, because all people can do is simply die once in a fight and lie there watching their comrades do the same.
nah i never thought that, but lots of people in this forum think that if you have a big guild / zerg everyone in that guild / zerg is automatically bad and only small guilds have good players. more often than not, its the opposite ;3
You are making an assumption every cleric has it, I'm not making an assumption every class has that do to the augment system. That would be akin to every class having a strong ability and it working the same without change.
Healing and rezing people are two huge different boats (first off you cant have every skill so yes it becomes meta when you are talking about broken level abilities).
TTk all varies and I also add the fact of players using mobility into that time as well as it is a defensive action. You can have a fight on BDO last 30+ seconds easily. It depends on the players skill + gear. All these mmorpgs have group based pvp we aren't going to be talking about PvE if we are talking about the pvp aspect of the fight.
The issue is you think AoC will play old while everything they have shown is modern game design for combat...This is where the issue is and I'm unsure how you are getting to your point saying it looks old when it had modern elements and looks nothing like L2. TL is what looked liek L2 and if we like at general reception no one on the internet would say AoC looks like TL or L2.
Yes if you lose in a fight you should be on the ground / going back to spawn. This sounds like I've ben saying you want a get out of jail free card to throw your skills until everything runs out. Which sounds like very generic low risk gameplay. Which also ion my experience is not related to older mmorpgs. If you die in them you need to respawn as well, in fact in shadowbane you are respawning back at town or your base which could be 20 min away.
Dying doesn't mean the battle end, it just means you lost a fight as it should be and a price you need to pay xp / distance time. The group that win rez's their allies and gets back to grinding. Not this ok i die but now I'm going to respawn and we are going to see who wants to waste the most time with 0 time consequence.
I still think its wild when you say you shouldn't have to watch your team fight or respawn after you just lost a fight...What?! Respawn group up and fight again and win, if you lose again and waste more of your time having to travel back and forth sounds like those people need to get good. Else it just sounds like you want to be able to grief them out of a point by attacking them non stop until they leave.