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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
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Yep that is because ArcheAge was designed around a complete pay to win style. Either you pay Gold Farmers or you pay the Cash Shop. Thats why I left AA.
I am trying to make Ashes better by making it not gear driven.
In crafting a sword, you'd have say 4 basic components: Guard, Grip, Pommel, Blade. A weaponsmith would have to make each of these components to put together a sword. But make each component quality variable. A Guard with medium quality attached to a perfect quality Blade, medium quality Grip and average Pommel is obviously not the best it could be.
That'll keep crafters churning out pieces as they are always chasing the high-end, best quality piece.
Then make the materials matter. If the blade is made from titanium, it'll do more damage than say steel, but be too heavy for a fast dagger.
Make all the pieces inter-changable at any time. Again, creating a need for crafters.
So you get your mighty Falchion of Doom from a drop. It's high end by itself, but you want it to be faster. So you take it to a crafter who breaks it down into the core elements, you'll keep the Grip, Pommel, Guard from the original drop, but swap out the blade with a crafted one, or maybe the one dropped in dungeon 2 - the mighty Falchion of Speed, or maybe a high-end crafted one. If you go with the Falchion of Speed blade + Falchion of Doom parts then you've reduced the RNG - you know what you're going to get.
Then if you want to really push the limits you can enhance each piece of the sword further using rare components found as drops throughout the world. 10 vials of Insert Boss here blood can be applied to the blade by a high end crafter whose chance of success is determined by his skill level. You can do this up to say 5x times to further enchance the blade. That creates demand and supply relationship between the adventurer and crafter, too. Adventurer wants blade, crafter wants blood he can sell to other customers. So he'll enchance your blade, for a cost of 13 blood - he pockets 3, and Adventurer gets his blade.
Combining the two - crafting and loot drops would be the way to go. Makes every weapon unique to the player, depending on their play style, so not everyone is running around with a 'best in slot' weapon.
This can go way deeper, but you get the idea.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/crafting-vs-gear-dropped-from-bosses/page/2/#post-7043" rel="nofollow">lordofthepit wrote:</a></div>
We can agree to disagree. You want a different game than me and that is fine. I love finding a useful sword in a dungeon. It doesn’t get better than that for me. I really hate having the same boring looking gear for months. Archeage is pay to win which does suck. That is why I care bear. I find creative ways to be entertained playing. I vary my tactics when I start getting bored. My gear sucks but at least I am not pay to win. I don’t give gold sellers and exploiters gold. I like to be self sufficient anyways. I tried Final Fantasy and I hated it. I guess we have different ideas and that is okay. I still play Archeage for now.
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See I too do want to find a useful sword in a Dungeon. What I do not want is the gear Treadmill. Also I am not saying you are going to have the same gear for months, that becomes a choice because I also want Item Decay which means consistently replacing gear. There should be several hundred different combinations of gear. For example there should be a sword with a special trait called Elemental Slayer. You dont use this sword on anything other than killing Elementals because it gives you 50% more damage on Elementals and since the gear breaks you dont want to use this sword on just anything.
I want an open gear system where everything is useful but there is a large part that is situational. This gear can either drop from a chest or they can be crafted. Yes you should be replacing gear because your gear breaks and you need new gear. If you want a Dragon slayer weapon maybe a crafter that specializes in Dragon Slayer weapons is someone you want to talk to about picking one up or go into a dungeon what specializes in those weapons for drop rates.
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Here's a problem I see with this method right off the bat: Gear weight. The developers have already said that there will be a weight limit to what you can carry (hence why we need the caravan system) so that means that carrying around multiple pieces of gear for the right situation is unrealistic. You could say: Well then you would store your items and town and go collect the right gear for the right situation. You're right. You could do that. The problem is that say for instance you're out hunting earth elementals and have a sword that does elemental damage that affects earth highly, but then you run across elementals that are not affected by your sword and die because you couldn't run to town and get the right equipment.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/crafting-vs-gear-dropped-from-bosses/page/3/#post-7047" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/crafting-vs-gear-dropped-from-bosses/page/2/#post-7043" rel="nofollow">lordofthepit wrote:</a></div>
We can agree to disagree. You want a different game than me and that is fine. I love finding a useful sword in a dungeon. It doesn’t get better than that for me. I really hate having the same boring looking gear for months. Archeage is pay to win which does suck. That is why I care bear. I find creative ways to be entertained playing. I vary my tactics when I start getting bored. My gear sucks but at least I am not pay to win. I don’t give gold sellers and exploiters gold. I like to be self sufficient anyways. I tried Final Fantasy and I hated it. I guess we have different ideas and that is okay. I still play Archeage for now.
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See I too do want to find a useful sword in a Dungeon. What I do not want is the gear Treadmill. Also I am not saying you are going to have the same gear for months, that becomes a choice because I also want Item Decay which means consistently replacing gear. There should be several hundred different combinations of gear. For example there should be a sword with a special trait called Elemental Slayer. You dont use this sword on anything other than killing Elementals because it gives you 50% more damage on Elementals and since the gear breaks you dont want to use this sword on just anything.
I want an open gear system where everything is useful but there is a large part that is situational. This gear can either drop from a chest or they can be crafted. Yes you should be replacing gear because your gear breaks and you need new gear. If you want a Dragon slayer weapon maybe a crafter that specializes in Dragon Slayer weapons is someone you want to talk to about picking one up or go into a dungeon what specializes in those weapons for drop rates.
</blockquote>
Here’s a problem I see with this method right off the bat: Gear weight. The developers have already said that there will be a weight limit to what you can carry (hence why we need the caravan system) so that means that carrying around multiple pieces of gear for the right situation is unrealistic. You could say: Well then you would store your items and town and go collect the right gear for the right situation. You’re right. You could do that. The problem is that say for instance you’re out hunting earth elementals and have a sword that does elemental damage that affects earth highly, but then you run across elementals that are not affected by your sword and die because you couldn’t run to town and get the right equipment.
[/quote]
Having an extra sword or two would add minimal weight to your bag space. Yea having an extra set of gear can get to be a bit much but that makes you think about what you are going to fight a head of time. Dont go to a Fire based damage dungeon with gear which resistances is weak against fire damage.
</blockquote>
Having an extra sword or two would add minimal weight to your bag space. Yea having an extra set of gear can get to be a bit much but that makes you think about what you are going to fight a head of time. Dont go to a Fire based damage dungeon with gear which resistances is weak against fire damage.
[/quote]
Thing is you can't always plan for the unexpected there might be other kinds of NPCs in a dungeon and if you're carrying around a sword/gearset for whatever you're going to encounter it more than likely won't leave much room to carry what you get from the dungeon out.
That way there is no dropped gear vs crafted gear conflict.
That way both dungeon crawlers (to get unique components) and crafters (to make the unique gear) are essential.
I too am a fan of 100% player crafted gear vs almost any combination of drop+crafted. It stimulates content through trade. It allows crafters some time in the spotlight rather than just being an add-on skill.
Where and how do players learn how to craft these "special weapons" though? Sure you could just have the player spend the xp and hand wave his recipe knowledge increase. Why not do something along these lines...
1. All gear is crafted by players. Materials for this are gathered and in mob drops.
2. As crafters level, they get some basic recipes, maybe some more fancy twists to them. A level 1 crafter's dagger is not as good as a level 5 crafter's...
3. Monsters DO drop gear but like all things sitting in dank caves, foggy swamps, ice-fissures it simply is too worn or ragged to be of use. EXCEPT a sufficiently leveled Crafter can take these items and LEARN how to make them(adding a recipe to their book) through reverse engineering. Maybe that or they can choose to scrap it for rare components. <---scraping it is a good option if they already have the recipe.
Anyhoo, I have played MMOs in which the crafting is as useless as could be and some where it is player driven and only player driven. The later is by far the very best way to go, IMHO. ;)
I too am a fan of 100% player crafted gear vs almost any combination of drop+crafted. It stimulates content through trade. It allows crafters some time in the spotlight rather than just being an add-on skill.
Where and how do players learn how to craft these “special weapons” though? Sure you could just have the player spend the xp and hand wave his recipe knowledge increase. Why not do something along these lines…
1. All gear is crafted by players. Materials for this are gathered and in mob drops.
2. As crafters level, they get some basic recipes, maybe some more fancy twists to them. A level 1 crafter’s dagger is not as good as a level 5 crafter’s…
3. Monsters DO drop gear but like all things sitting in dank caves, foggy swamps, ice-fissures it simply is too worn or ragged to be of use. EXCEPT a sufficiently leveled Crafter can take these items and LEARN how to make them(adding a recipe to their book) through reverse engineering. Maybe that or they can choose to scrap it for rare components. <—scraping it is a good option if they already have the recipe.
Anyhoo, I have played MMOs in which the crafting is as useless as could be and some where it is player driven and only player driven. The later is by far the very best way to go, IMHO. <img alt="????" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/2.2.1/svg/1f609.svg" />
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I agree with most of your post, but point 2. We shouldn't compare items made by the level of crafter but rather the resourses used in crafting the item. A level 20 crafter can make a dagger, but a level 14 crafter can make a better dagger using better resources. By doing this, it allows the lower level crafters, or people newer to the game to be able to compete with other crafters.
That way there is no dropped gear vs crafted gear conflict.
That way both dungeon crawlers (to get unique components) and crafters (to make the unique gear) are essential.
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^This...
Picture this: your raid force just dropped uber-mob-of-been-kicking-your-tail-for-weeks. After much rejoicing, you see the loot contents: Sparkly Material x4, Glittering Gem x2, Enchanted Parchment x3. Do you jump for joy or go WTF?
Again, I like the idea... just curious how people would react to that.
Another thought was that if items dropped from mobs that they can be upgraded through the various crafting professions. Want more of a certain resistance? Take it to the appropriate crafter who can modify it with that resistance. Most games utilize gems or sockets or something for these types of adjustments. Don't make it so easy for us (the players). Make it so we have to have interaction with a crafter in order to make these alterations. That interaction increases the social aspect. Etc... Just a thought.
Picture this: your raid force just dropped uber-mob-of-been-kicking-your-tail-for-weeks. After much rejoicing, you see the loot contents: Sparkly Material x4, Glittering Gem x2, Enchanted Parchment x3. Do you jump for joy or go WTF?
Again, I like the idea… just curious how people would react to that.
Another thought was that if items dropped from mobs that they can be upgraded through the various crafting professions. Want more of a certain resistance? Take it to the appropriate crafter who can modify it with that resistance. Most games utilize gems or sockets or something for these types of adjustments. Don’t make it so easy for us (the players). Make it so we have to have interaction with a crafter in order to make these alterations. That interaction increases the social aspect. Etc… Just a thought.
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You're just looking at mats instead of also looking at main components. The mats you listed could be looted from trash mobs or made by a crafter. When we talk about getting mats from a mob boss, we mean, great dragon scale of uberness (legendary), used in crafting a chest plate or shield (legendary). Or any different kind of major component for crafting a sword, staff, armor, etc. No, you didn't get a great sword drop from that spider, but you did loot a fabled fang used to craft a fabled dagger, etc.
i could see a Golem with weapons stuck in it from past battles that you need to get repaired... i like when crafter's are the ones that make the best items... it makes crafting a very big part of the game where as most game,s crafting is a gimmick..
p.s the drop was 100% on mobs but you need 5 eyes to make something and sometimes you get lucky and get 3 eyes in one drop or just the one... boss hunting is fun finding boss's in the world to fight. the idea of doing a raid 50 times for that 10% chance for a drop good god no... plz no...
say the hilt needs 10 resources one resources gives you you better damage but creates a slower weapons and then add another resources for speed, this also create's different items, i think you should find the odd weapon/armour in the world however crafting gear should always be some of the better gear,
youtube crafting in saga of ryzom. crafting this is the best i have seen
Now, Don't forget the impact of AoC's Node System. All these dungeons and instanced content may not even be available until the global parameters are met.
Also we should all be aware that crafting has been confirmed to be 'important'
Let me suggest a hypothetical sequence to obtain a particular item. This item for sake of ease will be the "Uber Axe"
The Uber Axe was made by be by the combination of 2 parts.
The Axe head was forged from dwarfish mithril in the depths of an abandoned forge in the underbelly of a mountain and since filled with vile beasts and abominations "Node A", It was procured by a thief and burglar who unfortunately due to his corrupted ways was slain by a bounty hunter and adventurer who found the axe head.
Inspired by the acquisition The adventurer made his way to the township of 'Node B"
The handle was hewn from seasoned oak for the forests of 'Node A' and shaped by an artisan elven woodsmen in 'Node B', By request and bought by the adventure,
Finally with a group of comrades the adventure sets of to find the sacred pool of 'Node C' supposedly hidden at the end of the mystic woods where the axe can be imbued with restorative properties.
All hypothetical.
but far more captivating that LFG-silence-10min-poop RNG epic pants, BOP, not my class-disenchant salvage materials. Rinse Repeat.
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This could work. The problems how are you going to deal with power creep and crafters being bored because their crafted gear is only sells for short periods of time? The system you suggest is what Pantheon is basically doing. But that game is completely designed around farming bosses in an open world dungeon. It is not focused on PVP and node warfare.
Thing is you would have to figure out how to keep crafters interested in crafting when most people have the gear that want to do that type of system and the people that just buy crafted gear. After gear is out there much like ESO there is no point in crafting more gear.
One of the advantages of the large scale of this game is that gearing up your entire 100 member guild will probably take considerable time. If being a crafter in order to make your own gear isn't a walk in the park, and bosses don't drop gear left and right, I believe a quite good amount of time will pass without crafters running out of work. Also, if leveling if going to be a lengthy journey, it will take some time for everyone to be max level and ready to craft/grind BiS. If and when the game gets to that point, I'd say it has been damn successful.
Wide variety of gear types and combinations. (characters wanting to broaden skills and/or broaden effectiveness by situation).
Wear and tear on gear from use or death or both making repairs important.
Modification of gear(limited short Buffs) i.e. sharpening stones, oils of hardening, feathers of true flight, etc...
Wide variety of gear types and combinations. (characters wanting to broaden skills and/or broaden effectiveness by situation).
Wear and tear on gear from use or death or both making repairs important.
Modification of gear(limited short Buffs) i.e. sharpening stones, oils of hardening, feathers of true flight, etc…
[/quote]
Not to mention that if any form of weapon upgrading exists, weapons may be lost during the gamble, thus keeping crafters employed.
One of the advantages of the large scale of this game is that gearing up your entire 100 member guild will probably take considerable time. If being a crafter in order to make your own gear isn’t a walk in the park, and bosses don’t drop gear left and right, I believe a quite good amount of time will pass without crafters running out of work. Also, if leveling if going to be a lengthy journey, it will take some time for everyone to be max level and ready to craft/grind BiS. If and when the game gets to that point, I’d say it has been damn successful.
[/quote]
Yea that would work fairly well if stuff took a while. I would just like to make sure they balance that kind of grind with having very useful crafting gear that stays useful for a long time. Plus content that players can do for gold to buy crafted gear if they dont want to grind for the other gear. That would balance out the system very nicely.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/crafting-vs-gear-dropped-from-bosses/page/4/#post-12476" rel="nofollow">Bringslite wrote:</a></div>
You can keep crafters relevant with several systems.
Wide variety of gear types and combinations. (characters wanting to broaden skills and/or broaden effectiveness by situation).
Wear and tear on gear from use or death or both making repairs important.
Modification of gear(limited short Buffs) i.e. sharpening stones, oils of hardening, feathers of true flight, etc…
</blockquote>
Not to mention that if any form of weapon upgrading exists, weapons may be lost during the gamble, thus keeping crafters employed.
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I would rather not see an RNG Upgrading system. I would prefer to see it where upgrading takes 2 or 3 mats from bosses around the world. Then these items if not fixed before the durability hits 0 then you need 5 or 6 key mats to reforge the item. My problem with RNG is it sucks for crafting. If gear breaks but takes a lot to reforge the gear then people will pay attention to the game vs letting the game become whack a mole. Now if its crafted gear players can easily replace the gear at any time because there should be enough crafters.
[quote]
Yea that would work fairly well if stuff took a while. I would just like to make sure they balance that kind of grind with having very useful crafting gear that stays useful for a long time. Plus content that players can do for gold to buy crafted gear if they dont want to grind for the other gear. That would balance out the system very nicely.
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If it inspires you, I have an example of a similar system that ended up working very well. Lineage II had a grading system for it's gear, it went from No-grade, to D, C, B, A and S, now it has a more developed and mainstream version of the same system, but I haven't played too much since Interlude, so I can only speak of the past with certainty. The latest grade of gear was rather hard to acquire, as recipes required a big amount of materials, most of which you needed a Spoiler, which was a class in the game, so a specific person only, or your spoiler alt could gather these material, and the crafting had a 40% chance of being unsuccessful( fun fact: Crafters were also their own class, so that's 2 alts minimum if you wanted to craft yourself). It was normal, and extremely viable, to see people still in their A grade equipment, as purchasing S grade from other players was quite expensive. In fact, most casters didn't even switch from the A grade set, because it had a really good set bonus when it came to casting speed. So I have indeed seen a system in which crafted, or otherwise dropped gear coexist and because of its' overall design and balance, was a rather successful system. Naturally, it came to a point in which everyone was well geared, but that point took long and the whole thing felt really balanced.
[quote]
I would rather not see an RNG Upgrading system. I would prefer to see it where upgrading takes 2 or 3 mats from bosses around the world. Then these items if not fixed before the durability hits 0 then you need 5 or 6 key mats to reforge the item. My problem with RNG is it sucks for crafting. If gear breaks but takes a lot to reforge the gear then people will pay attention to the game vs letting the game become whack a mole. Now if its crafted gear players can easily replace the gear at any time because there should be enough crafters.
[/quote]
I'm definitely not advocated for an RNG system. Your solution actually sounds like something I'd rather enjoy. Perhaps just a small chance of losing everything, a bit of risk is always fun.
I also think my hate for RNG in crafting comes from AA where people would spend real money to upgrade gear. I hated that system so much. If you keep upgrades simple but requires some rare items to upgrade that would take the aggravation out of RNG chance to lose gear but require you to get harder to get mats. I would also make it that these mats can drop from any content in higher level nodes, in any of the raids, or as rewards for successful sieges or defense of a siege. It would be nice for players to do what they want as vs having to grind a single mob for mats. Yea that might mean there are more mats vs if it was 1 mob, but you would need that mat if the item broke. So the need is not just a single use. Also creates a risk vs reward. Dont take your best gear to farm a level 1 node.
The idea behind my proposition to lose gear and, subsequently, the crafting materials you spent so much time gathering, was one that meant to make the process of acquiring better gear an adversarial task, rather than a lengthy one. I know it sounds like both end up in the same destiny, with different paths, but I do not believe the way a player absorbs the news of losing all his materials to a crafting process or simply not having that one material he's missing drop the same way. I find the second inherently more frustrating than the other. Whilst it's all a game of numbers, knowing you have a solid 60% of getting your piece once you gather all the materials you know you can gather by putting the time down feels, to me, less random than killing boss after boss, or completing task after task looking hoping that the next one will be the one in which that 4% drop-rate finally works in your favor. I also believe that, sometimes, being forced down a certain arduous task, in this case it would be the journey to gather materials to try your luck at the forge, isn't necessarily a bad thing.
I also think this process is justified lore wise in the sense that crafting such a high quality piece of armor or weapon is such a delicate process, even the most expert of artisans could fail to do it.
Having a time of your characters' life in which you do this one task in order to then do the other things you want to do in more optimal conditions is really satisfactory, and you really feel like you earned that power increase. I sort of view it as a training session for your character, plus, if leveling will indeed take a long time, all that grind is actually useful. Naturally, that's just my preference and I don't expect you or anyone else to feel the same or any differently.
1. My first attempt at something new and at my max ability,
2. I am trying to improve something beyond it's current stats
3. I am trying to craft something that is beyond my current level <--really stretching my current skill set
Maybe a failure could become something that has salvage materials value and/or value(no more than the original item) as something another crafter can use to learn that recipe-schematic(whatever).
Acquiring some high level crafting mats from Mobs actually works very well in a system where useable gear does not drop. It is coin for the adventurer if not what he needs to get his own dream gear crafted. Players with gathering skills can usually get all the basic stuff fairly easily depending on scarcity. Which reminds me of another important point(though off topic): For an economy to have a chance to work right and be robust it is important that even beginner gathering materials stay relevant in crafting even to the top levels, i.e. sure that high lvl breastplate needs adamantine to make but it still also needs iron. Make sure that all or many low grade materials are useful through many levels of the crafting system. From the bottom up.