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Boats in Rivers

VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
Did anyone else catch Stevens comment that only caravan rafts can be in the rivers of Verra on this months livestream?
It confused me a little bit. Obviously, game mechanics no yet showcased, and further context given down the line might change how I feel or think about it, but it definitely felt odd.
After all, wouldn't you never travel overland with caravans then if ever river travel was an option for your journey? Not only would it be just as obscured as overland travel, what with forests, hills, and cliff faces, but generally speaking, players in water in most games function differently from a combat perspective when in water, than they do while on land. Usually in a negative way, either slower in movement, or unable to use certain abilities, or even most abilities while in the swimming animation. Plus, there's often a much smaller amount of pve obstacles in water areas as well, compared to land.
Is the Water Current mechanic we were told about what brings the risk/reward here? Maybe making some rivers unnavigable either in general or during certain time windows? Or are there a mess of water foes that just make it unfeasible sometimes?
As always, more info needed before I can get a more solid impression, but I find myself hoping Steven misspoke, and just meant to say we won't see the massive raid style vessels talked about previously, plying the waters of the Riverlands, and not that smaller early game vessels are banned as well, or that this is how it will be during Alpha 2. And of course, going through all of this with the understanding that player boats need access to a harbor area to be placed into the world, so the rivers I'm speaking of here would have to have some connection to such an area.
As a kind of ending note to this, if this is the intention going forward, is this a recent decision? And if it's not recent, why in the Weather and seasons update last year, did Intrepid tease (to much hype) a pair of merchant vessels sliding slowly down a river, off to the side of the showcase? Either way, how did everyone else feel about this? Not very relevant, excited, disappointed?
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Comments

  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Yeah, feels like a recent change.

    And if it stays this way, guilds/people will definitely run as many river caravans as possible, cause while Steven was going real close to the shore to show off player attacks from land - no one in their right mind would go anywhere that's not the damn middle of the river, at which point the caravan is barely even attackable.

    I think the logic for caravans is that they can only get to land in specific spots, so those can be ambushed, and Intrepid might be thinking that it's a good counterbalance to the relatively safe river travel. But having at least solo ships available on rivers would be great.
  • EndowedEndowed Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I like the premise of this question.
    Also, will the rivers only ever have one direction of current and will the flow-speed(s) always be the same? This, along with the above sentiment of advantage for river travel over all other options would seem to pick "winners" for some nodes over most of the others. At least for caravan considerations.
  • In the weather showcase we saw a medium/large(?) boat in a large river, so I am hoping theres categories of rivers that allow a variety of sizes of ships. But that was years ago so maybe there was a change in direction.

    Same thing goes for the ships only being able to be launched at beaches. I hope that doesn't include the single person boats like the wispwatcher needing to be at a harbour to launch. I feel like small boats like that would only be viable for small streams, so launching them at harbours is just a recipe to be killed in the waters while you are leaving the harbour to go inland.
  • CadacCadac Member
    Primitive bridges are a problem for Naval, and I think a personal vessel could easily destroy a land caravan/raft, and would be scaled to Naval Caravans, and content?
    Coastal waters are still flagged, Open Seas are further out.

  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Cadac wrote: »
    Primitive bridges are a problem for Naval, and I think a personal vessel could easily destroy a land caravan/raft, and would be scaled to Naval Caravans, and content?
    Coastal waters are still flagged, Open Seas are further out.
    Oh right, bridges. Nodes will be able to make them on roads iirc, so majority of ships won't be able to travel all that far after a while. While caravans can change from water to land.

    That might be one of the main reasons for this change as well.
  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited February 1
    Endowed wrote: »
    This, along with the above sentiment of advantage for river travel over all other options would seem to pick "winners"

    Trueeee. Would be a huge boon for Nodes "upstream".
  • CadacCadac Member
    Ventharien wrote: »
    Endowed wrote: »
    This, along with the above sentiment of advantage for river travel over all other options would seem to pick "winners"

    Trueeee. Would be a huge boon for Nodes "upstream".

    Those citizens might want to enhance the rainfall they get, and rivals may work against that. afik
  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Cadac wrote: »
    Primitive bridges are a problem for Naval, and I think a personal vessel could easily destroy a land caravan/raft, and would be scaled to Naval Caravans, and content?
    Coastal waters are still flagged, Open Seas are further out.

    The bridges do make sense as a possible issue, but especially primitive ones, likely just wood stilts on a small pathway would impede even caravans. And wouldn't it be more engaging to have the question, "Do we build a bridge, or put node resources toward their construction (however the system shakes out) or do we leave a navigable waterway?"
    As for the scaling, that's just a numbers game. They can have any which way that damage scales and amplifies depending on target. Ships might barely do any damage to players, for example. As for the flagging, attacking caravans is outside of the corruption system either way, so it's a non issue.
  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Cadac wrote: »
    Ventharien wrote: »
    Endowed wrote: »
    This, along with the above sentiment of advantage for river travel over all other options would seem to pick "winners"

    Trueeee. Would be a huge boon for Nodes "upstream".

    Those citizens might want to enhance the rainfall they get, and rivals may work against that. afik

    Yeah, or some artifact to change the flow? Crazy magic stuff like that.
  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited February 1
    I guess maybe my disappointment is it seems to cut out a whole tree of possibility, maybe making Nodes up large river ways but farther from the sea less lucrative, No guilds specializing in defending certain waterways near nodes on smaller ships (Maybe not being able to go to the dangerous seas yet), OR the drama if one node notices its rival is getting alot of traffic up a certain popular river that crosses it's ZOI so they block off the river with a bridge. Think of the sieges tossed around because of that hahah.
  • EndowedEndowed Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited February 1
    In the weather showcase

    The seasons and weather could be a nice off-set.

    If its all done equitably, than perhaps Rivers could freeze, dry up or become too flooded**. Or become too swampy/vegetation-laden to even make use of during certain months or seasons. River monsters? Even true river hazards that ebb and flow that can hurt or destroy a raft. whirpools, storms, rock outcroppings and just too damn rough**.

    *Imagine your raft being swept away in the totally wrong direction... EPIC! :D
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Remember that weather impacts the world. I believe that they have said that in the summertime, some rivers will dry up, in the wintertime some will freeze (becoming like a road). Some roads through mountain passes will be impassable in wintertime. In summer, when lake and river levels fall, roads into the underworld will open up.

    Which reminds us, there will be underworld routes for caravans as well as choices of various roads and rivers --- finding that caravan isn't going to necessarily be a simple task even if you know one is going to run from a particular node around a particular time. It would be a foolish caravan master indeed who told anyone what route she or he would take.
  • Why would I not just use my water mount and get on the raft or attack it???

    How are you going to cross the area without a bridge so you have no choice but to use the raft or go a super long way. Either way it is player choice how they want to approach things.
  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Why would I not just use my water mount and get on the raft or attack it???

    How are you going to cross the area without a bridge so you have no choice but to use the raft or go a super long way. Either way it is player choice how they want to approach things.

    Well of course you would to approach. And you would be just as vulnerable to mount knock off as you would be on land. Perhaps slightly less so depending how they go with surface of the water interrupting targeting or not, we'll see. But the statement wasn't rafts will be invincible, it was feeling like with smaller boats being now banned from river systems, beyond just being dissatisfied with the change, I'm curious what's the risk reward for using the rivers, because as it seems, it's just objectively better if the option is available to whatever journey you're taking
    It isn't more exposed, it doesn't appear to be slower the storage capacity didn't seem to change, and as someone mentioned earlier, Steven was playing near the shore, within range of the cliffs. But if there isn't an unknown restriction, Noone would do that. They'd sit, in the middle of the river, especially if its larger, completely out of range.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Yeah, feels like a recent change.

    And if it stays this way, guilds/people will definitely run as many river caravans as possible, cause while Steven was going real close to the shore to show off player attacks from land - no one in their right mind would go anywhere that's not the damn middle of the river, at which point the caravan is barely even attackable.

    I think the logic for caravans is that they can only get to land in specific spots, so those can be ambushed, and Intrepid might be thinking that it's a good counterbalance to the relatively safe river travel. But having at least solo ships available on rivers would be great.

    Yea I think the counter balance will really come from those ambushes on the spots to land. If scattered around properly. Plus water mobs might make it where you have to take the ambush head on
  • Ventharien wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Why would I not just use my water mount and get on the raft or attack it???

    How are you going to cross the area without a bridge so you have no choice but to use the raft or go a super long way. Either way it is player choice how they want to approach things.

    Well of course you would to approach. And you would be just as vulnerable to mount knock off as you would be on land. Perhaps slightly less so depending how they go with surface of the water interrupting targeting or not, we'll see. But the statement wasn't rafts will be invincible, it was feeling like with smaller boats being now banned from river systems, beyond just being dissatisfied with the change, I'm curious what's the risk reward for using the rivers, because as it seems, it's just objectively better if the option is available to whatever journey you're taking
    It isn't more exposed, it doesn't appear to be slower the storage capacity didn't seem to change, and as someone mentioned earlier, Steven was playing near the shore, within range of the cliffs. But if there isn't an unknown restriction, Noone would do that. They'd sit, in the middle of the river, especially if its larger, completely out of range.

    Ya id do that but they went through the risk of turning it into a raft and they still have to land. I'm sure it will help a lot with some nodes, and some nodes river might not be a good. People could also use their own raft to board, and aqua mounts being under the river to be more difficult to spot.

    Granted ya im all for defenders to always have stronger advantages though.
  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    tautau wrote: »
    Remember that weather impacts the world. I believe that they have said that in the summertime, some rivers will dry up, in the wintertime some will freeze (becoming like a road). Some roads through mountain passes will be impassable in wintertime. In summer, when lake and river levels fall, roads into the underworld will open up.

    Which reminds us, there will be underworld routes for caravans as well as choices of various roads and rivers --- finding that caravan isn't going to necessarily be a simple task even if you know one is going to run from a particular node around a particular time. It would be a foolish caravan master indeed who told anyone what route she or he would take.

    True, but the question isn't, are there no other options, it's what is the give and take from this particular option. Underrealm caravans will, after all, still be just as on firm ground as above, and will be just as populated npc wise as the land above, if not more. At least from what we've seen so far.
  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    People could also use their own raft to board

    After the hmmm don't like this feeling i got from hearing this, that was basically what I thought too. Or even ramming Caravan rafts with hopefully less upgraded ones. Or blocking river paths with multiple ones.
  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Yea I think the counter balance will really come from those ambushes on the spots to land. If scattered around properly. Plus water mobs might make it where you have to take the ambush head on

    Shy of any other info, really the only minus I can see. Baiting people into starting the animation. That said, they also said it was cancelable, only costing however much time you've already put in to go back. So likely, you'd wanna wait half way, so they couldn't just pop right back.
  • I mean, currently there are different classes of ships (https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Ship_classes), and from the number of players on the caravan raft, it would seem that the "Personal Vessels" would be smaller, given that they're for a maximum of 3 players. So presumably they'd be able to travel on any rivers that the caravan raft does.

    But as Mag7Spy said, send 20 players over on aquatic mounts. At least half of them are likely to make it, then the defenders are too busy fighting them off to attack any more aquatic mounts, and you get more players on-board.

    Something to test in Alpha-2!
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • Don't overthink it until you see proper ocean showcase.
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member
    edited February 2
    I wouldnt mind seeing small ships with a couple cannons in rivers though and u could have cannon upgrade for caravans too potentially if u plan on water routes

    Ships in rivers tend to be at a disadvantage so i dont see an issue especialy with aquatic mount and things you loose alot of mobility of a ship when ur in smaller rivers :P much easier to board and things
  • mobtekmobtek Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    As I said on the feedback thread :smile:
    Steven said there would be no deep draft boats (ie seagoing vessels) on rivers and lakes on the stream. That seems fair.
    I'd love it if there were smaller boats you could build, ie barges (that can maybe also carry goods & have to convert to caravan to finish), kayaks + canoes so one or two people (or 5 people in a long canoe) could use the rivers to travel about, would be great for strategic transfer of players around the map for whichever scenario ;)

    Yes I know we have acquatic mounts too
  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    daveywavey wrote: »
    I mean, currently there are different classes of ships (https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Ship_classes), and from the number of players on the caravan raft, it would seem that the "Personal Vessels" would be smaller, given that they're for a maximum of 3 players. So presumably they'd be able to travel on any rivers that the caravan raft does.

    This is what I mean though, from what Steven said, Ships in general will be unable to traverse rivers. I had always thought size would determine access, like what you said here, maybe with Personal Vessels being able to go up smaller rivers, maybe larger rivers allowing bigger ships in to a point, and the larger vessels just to big to fit in the much more shallow water. I'd love this. But from the comment, it sounds like there's just a hard stop, only caravans on rivers, which I dislike.
    daveywavey wrote: »
    But as Mag7Spy said, send 20 players over on aquatic mounts. At least half of them are likely to make it, then the defenders are too busy fighting them off to attack any more aquatic mounts, and you get more players on-board.

    Something to test in Alpha-2!

    Definitely what the proper play would be, but if you think about it for a second, that doesn't make it any different that land traversal. People would still be approaching you, on 20 mounts. Either way, you still have to shoot what you can and engage up close the remainder. So still, you don't really get any risk for the rewards and advantages that river travel have, that isn't exactly the same as the risks land travel has.
    Some people made the point, that because you have to sit transforming between land and water mode, that would be the tradeoff. As Steven said "You're a sitting duck here". I thought this made sense at first, but after mulling it around for a while, I started to think are you really? What's the difference if you were able to move? It's not like the caravan is going to be outrunning players if you could move, people would attack, you would defend, either you would wipe, or they would. Now, if the caravan say, takes more damage while transforming, or is unable to use its buff/healing abilities, that would be a huge tactical penalty, so maybe that will be the trade.
  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Veeshan wrote: »
    I wouldnt mind seeing small ships with a couple cannons in rivers though and u could have cannon upgrade for caravans too potentially if u plan on water routes

    Ships in rivers tend to be at a disadvantage so i dont see an issue especialy with aquatic mount and things you loose alot of mobility of a ship when ur in smaller rivers :P much easier to board and things

    For sure. Less maneuverability generally as well. And very much agree, I always hoped there would be small ships in the Riverlands many waterways.
  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    HughJardon wrote: »
    Don't overthink it until you see proper ocean showcase.

    Ocean content is irrelevant to this conversation. Unless your saying you think more comments on this particular subject would be given during such a showcase. Though I'd think that would be more a general ship showcase, not an ocean one, as why would you be talking about rivers during an ocean showcase.
  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    mobtek wrote: »
    As I said on the feedback thread :smile:
    Steven said there would be no deep draft boats (ie seagoing vessels) on rivers and lakes on the stream. That seems fair.
    I'd love it if there were smaller boats you could build, ie barges (that can maybe also carry goods & have to convert to caravan to finish), kayaks + canoes so one or two people (or 5 people in a long canoe) could use the rivers to travel about, would be great for strategic transfer of players around the map for whichever scenario ;)

    Yes I know we have acquatic mounts too

    Very much like this, but Steven didn't say sea going vessels, he said "Rivers can only be used by Caravan Rafts" which brings the big sad hahahah
  • mobtekmobtek Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    Ventharien wrote: »
    mobtek wrote: »
    As I said on the feedback thread :smile:
    Steven said there would be no deep draft boats (ie seagoing vessels) on rivers and lakes on the stream. That seems fair.
    I'd love it if there were smaller boats you could build, ie barges (that can maybe also carry goods & have to convert to caravan to finish), kayaks + canoes so one or two people (or 5 people in a long canoe) could use the rivers to travel about, would be great for strategic transfer of players around the map for whichever scenario ;)

    Yes I know we have acquatic mounts too

    Very much like this, but Steven didn't say sea going vessels, he said "Rivers can only be used by Caravan Rafts" which brings the big sad hahahah

    Indeed big sad, hope they rethink as part of alpha 2 testing or a later expansion :)
  • Ventharien wrote: »
    Boats in Rivers

    I could imagine Players to be able to get/build Rowboats for Rivers, later on. Assuming of Course, they have a Node nearby where they can get the needed Help, Blueprints, Materials, etc.
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  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    mobtek wrote: »

    Indeed big sad, hope they rethink as part of alpha 2 testing or a later expansion :)

    Same man, same.
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