Greetings, glorious adventurers! If you're joining in our Alpha One spot testing, please follow the steps here to see all the latest test info on our forums and Discord!
Options
another post about fire arms and how they could be implemented....
Ap0ph1s
Member
edit: this is a simple idea that comes up later in this thread but the sfx for weapons like ship cannons and if added, firearms should be seperate so you can lower the loud sounds of them if you dont like them or the vibe they give off in combat.
edit 2: just saw a great idea (even if guns arent implemented yet again) where certian technologies should be locked beyond node progression or maybe even interesting raids or dungeons that could be made hard enough you could need a full 64 man raid to even try getting them that could unlock a recipe for all the citizens of the node perhaps even permanently to make whatever it may be like say if crossbows get added in a future expansion after launch seen as they arent going to be there on launch anymore, you could have legit technological advancments that nodes will get where one node may learn how to make cannons instead or trebuchets instead of being stuck with battering rams and catapults or they may learn in this case, firearms which would than disperse the same way they did irl of one nation learning about firearms and while not on mass, still making firearms due to the fact that despite their expensiveness and long reloads as well as poor accuracy at longer rangers, when you give a large group of people them and tell them to fire them all in a line, civil war style, even if one would miss the broadside of a barn, the fucking 50 that get shot will have a hard time missing especially if they are being fired at another large group or in a world with magical monsters, giant targets.
for starters, im only suggesting this as an idea for post launch as like a dlc style expansion like how for example, eso got the dark brotherhood skill line. DONT EVEN SAY AGAIN THE 'dont suggest they scope creep when the game has already taken this long!' point for the billionth time please....
before you read this if you just want the TLDR; watch the first video for my general stance on the gun thing and the second on my stance in response to the point i have seen as the comeback each time i have had this disscusion in the forums in the past which is a response to not always haveta copy the LOTR style fantasy and that doing so could even hinder or make worse you content with the rest below the videos is just my idea of just one way to intigrate guns in a magical firearm type way rather than the traditional black powder way and is based on a more modern time period fantasy world so you can replace having cartridges with the runes being engraved into the back of the firearm firing chamber for example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n9kHXXyoa4 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtPpE_k2yKQ
also for those who want to just be done with this topic all together than just skip to this timestamp (10:27) in the first video about the guns thing and if any of the intrepid team read this comment than PLEASE give this timestamp and the second video watch cause seriously your hate against not just guns but also other things like unarmed fighting and monks is just a bit too much to be so 'IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN CAUSE I HATE THEM....'
also as a last point, im for having differences between races but i will say things like 'ALL GOBLINS ARE EVIL!!!' or 'ALL EVLES ARE OBNOXIOUS FUCK HEADS FOR NATURE OR MAGIC!!!!' better be there cause of say for example a genuine culture that is racist and that could even be an evolving storyline in the lore as more and more goblins start to see the benefits the big civilizations have and work their way to live in them in secert like for example, nott from the critical role campaign 2 with more and more people learning to accept the goblins as more and more goblins start to turn to accepting the ways of society and start to become proper members of it. hoenstly i just prefer you actually THINK about why it is those divides exist rather than just follow the boring stereotypical bs that LITERALLY hundreds of thousands of other people have also already done boringly......
as for what i wanna talk about, im making my own fantasy world that will be one that takes place in a alt version of *earth where kinda like in the witcher, multiple realities proly around our current day were all glomed together mixing in worlds of magic and technology giving you basically the variaity in races of the dnd world but set in a weird futuristic kidna apocalypse but not actually apocalypse style world with a shit ton of still relativly modern today style tech BUT with the added flair of them using magic to replace parts that that can be done with. in this case why i bring it up is because guns take advantage of enchantments to create 'runes' which are basically carved magic circles that when mana is run through them, they create the desired effect almost like a faucet having a specific shape being paired with either a hydromagnetism/concentration to keep the water/mana in the shape of the circle OR just through creating a massive enough faucet or a faucet with high enough water pressure that there isnt even a need to maintain the shape yourself.
basically there are multiple wayts to create this circle with there are people who create these circles within their soul with a soul being the mana a person generates, and these people are called mages or in other words, people with innate magic within themselves as often these faucets for mana are already open for them and they simply either can choose to run their high mana through them at a ridiculous flow rate OR even pull them from themselves far faster than it would normally take to create these magic circles.
another example are wizards who can learn to channel their mana in the air to create these circles that they dont have innately within themselves so their magic takes time but at least if given the time, is far more versitile as most mages often dont learn how to create these circles themselves due to society proping them up so highly and many mages being able to be a wizard in a 1 on 1 fight due to the massive disparity in speed and accuracy.
the last way magic works in my world that ill talk about right now is runes where like i stated earlier, runes are when you carve these magic circles physically into a surface and the issue with these is they are ENTIRELY dependant on your own physical motor skills to make with even trying to say use a spell like mage hand still has limitations as those spells rely on your own input to move anyways introducing the same risk. ultimately these runes grant spells to items to to use but of course, only once completed and once magic is run through them. its this prinicple that gets used by gunsmiths to craft a rune of fire that is just awaiting an input of ANY mana to than use the surrounding mana like a mage or wizard casting a big spell that they themselves wouldnt have the mana to complete to than fire at the right amount to propel the bullet with the way this mana is delived is done in a manner that doesnt even require the person to be able to use magic being, a singular mana crystal on the hammer. if stuck into the center of the circle and stuck by the wall of the chamber it hits at just the right speed, it lets off a small burst of mana in the center of the circle to ignite it propelling the bullet and the benefit to this is also that you allow those with a good understanding of runic magic to even make this more powerful as there are runes that can be set to be always active like durabilty enhancment allowing for greater firepower than should be possible and stronger bullets than one would think that if done right, could pierce even a dragons hide. as for the bullets, that would be where the rune is actually with the rune would be incomplete with the primer on a normal bullet would be replaced with a small plate that when pushed into place by the hammer would complete the circle to ensure your enemy doesnt cause your bullets to misfire by infusing magic into them from a distance.
all in all i hate that people are so against it since it would only make things more immersive because if this stuff REALLY existed, this is what would happen and i still to this day cant understand why some people think the fantasy in their head is more important than making the thing they are working on realistic in the sense that the world actually uses what its has the best it can rather than just randomly and whenever and however the writer feels like... more immersive worlds doesnt mean worse worlds and in fact makes them more fun as you can acutally truly see this world as well thought out REAL world with magic.......
edit 2: just saw a great idea (even if guns arent implemented yet again) where certian technologies should be locked beyond node progression or maybe even interesting raids or dungeons that could be made hard enough you could need a full 64 man raid to even try getting them that could unlock a recipe for all the citizens of the node perhaps even permanently to make whatever it may be like say if crossbows get added in a future expansion after launch seen as they arent going to be there on launch anymore, you could have legit technological advancments that nodes will get where one node may learn how to make cannons instead or trebuchets instead of being stuck with battering rams and catapults or they may learn in this case, firearms which would than disperse the same way they did irl of one nation learning about firearms and while not on mass, still making firearms due to the fact that despite their expensiveness and long reloads as well as poor accuracy at longer rangers, when you give a large group of people them and tell them to fire them all in a line, civil war style, even if one would miss the broadside of a barn, the fucking 50 that get shot will have a hard time missing especially if they are being fired at another large group or in a world with magical monsters, giant targets.
for starters, im only suggesting this as an idea for post launch as like a dlc style expansion like how for example, eso got the dark brotherhood skill line. DONT EVEN SAY AGAIN THE 'dont suggest they scope creep when the game has already taken this long!' point for the billionth time please....
before you read this if you just want the TLDR; watch the first video for my general stance on the gun thing and the second on my stance in response to the point i have seen as the comeback each time i have had this disscusion in the forums in the past which is a response to not always haveta copy the LOTR style fantasy and that doing so could even hinder or make worse you content with the rest below the videos is just my idea of just one way to intigrate guns in a magical firearm type way rather than the traditional black powder way and is based on a more modern time period fantasy world so you can replace having cartridges with the runes being engraved into the back of the firearm firing chamber for example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n9kHXXyoa4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtPpE_k2yKQalso for those who want to just be done with this topic all together than just skip to this timestamp (10:27) in the first video about the guns thing and if any of the intrepid team read this comment than PLEASE give this timestamp and the second video watch cause seriously your hate against not just guns but also other things like unarmed fighting and monks is just a bit too much to be so 'IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN CAUSE I HATE THEM....'
also as a last point, im for having differences between races but i will say things like 'ALL GOBLINS ARE EVIL!!!' or 'ALL EVLES ARE OBNOXIOUS FUCK HEADS FOR NATURE OR MAGIC!!!!' better be there cause of say for example a genuine culture that is racist and that could even be an evolving storyline in the lore as more and more goblins start to see the benefits the big civilizations have and work their way to live in them in secert like for example, nott from the critical role campaign 2 with more and more people learning to accept the goblins as more and more goblins start to turn to accepting the ways of society and start to become proper members of it. hoenstly i just prefer you actually THINK about why it is those divides exist rather than just follow the boring stereotypical bs that LITERALLY hundreds of thousands of other people have also already done boringly......
as for what i wanna talk about, im making my own fantasy world that will be one that takes place in a alt version of *earth where kinda like in the witcher, multiple realities proly around our current day were all glomed together mixing in worlds of magic and technology giving you basically the variaity in races of the dnd world but set in a weird futuristic kidna apocalypse but not actually apocalypse style world with a shit ton of still relativly modern today style tech BUT with the added flair of them using magic to replace parts that that can be done with. in this case why i bring it up is because guns take advantage of enchantments to create 'runes' which are basically carved magic circles that when mana is run through them, they create the desired effect almost like a faucet having a specific shape being paired with either a hydromagnetism/concentration to keep the water/mana in the shape of the circle OR just through creating a massive enough faucet or a faucet with high enough water pressure that there isnt even a need to maintain the shape yourself.
basically there are multiple wayts to create this circle with there are people who create these circles within their soul with a soul being the mana a person generates, and these people are called mages or in other words, people with innate magic within themselves as often these faucets for mana are already open for them and they simply either can choose to run their high mana through them at a ridiculous flow rate OR even pull them from themselves far faster than it would normally take to create these magic circles.
another example are wizards who can learn to channel their mana in the air to create these circles that they dont have innately within themselves so their magic takes time but at least if given the time, is far more versitile as most mages often dont learn how to create these circles themselves due to society proping them up so highly and many mages being able to be a wizard in a 1 on 1 fight due to the massive disparity in speed and accuracy.
the last way magic works in my world that ill talk about right now is runes where like i stated earlier, runes are when you carve these magic circles physically into a surface and the issue with these is they are ENTIRELY dependant on your own physical motor skills to make with even trying to say use a spell like mage hand still has limitations as those spells rely on your own input to move anyways introducing the same risk. ultimately these runes grant spells to items to to use but of course, only once completed and once magic is run through them. its this prinicple that gets used by gunsmiths to craft a rune of fire that is just awaiting an input of ANY mana to than use the surrounding mana like a mage or wizard casting a big spell that they themselves wouldnt have the mana to complete to than fire at the right amount to propel the bullet with the way this mana is delived is done in a manner that doesnt even require the person to be able to use magic being, a singular mana crystal on the hammer. if stuck into the center of the circle and stuck by the wall of the chamber it hits at just the right speed, it lets off a small burst of mana in the center of the circle to ignite it propelling the bullet and the benefit to this is also that you allow those with a good understanding of runic magic to even make this more powerful as there are runes that can be set to be always active like durabilty enhancment allowing for greater firepower than should be possible and stronger bullets than one would think that if done right, could pierce even a dragons hide. as for the bullets, that would be where the rune is actually with the rune would be incomplete with the primer on a normal bullet would be replaced with a small plate that when pushed into place by the hammer would complete the circle to ensure your enemy doesnt cause your bullets to misfire by infusing magic into them from a distance.
all in all i hate that people are so against it since it would only make things more immersive because if this stuff REALLY existed, this is what would happen and i still to this day cant understand why some people think the fantasy in their head is more important than making the thing they are working on realistic in the sense that the world actually uses what its has the best it can rather than just randomly and whenever and however the writer feels like... more immersive worlds doesnt mean worse worlds and in fact makes them more fun as you can acutally truly see this world as well thought out REAL world with magic.......
0
Comments
I previously said there was not going to be gunpowder in Ashes. What there will be is something very similar to gunpowder but has a more arcane nature to it. It's not necessarily going to be explainable through the conventional means of chemistry, metallurgy, and physics and what not, but rather the Essence is the core component of many types of magic, one of which is obviously going to be evocation type magic; and that evocation can have some explosive tendencies. – Steven Sharif
dude... did you even watch the video? we are talking about FLINTLOCKS...... not revolvers with bullet cartriges, not even black powder revolvers.... FLINTLOCKS ONLY... there are plenty of weird and interesting flintlock style firearms that could be reworked to be the idea i mentioend of 'magic firearms' and gameplay wise they would be strong mid range weapons with a high likelyhood of missing anything beyond mid range AT MOST and would still have poor accuracy at mid range but just do serious damage if they hit with a REALLY long reload that requires you to either just switch or rely on your melee tanks to protect you while you reload. jeez dude its like you dont even bother to pay the slightest attention to anything anyone you initially disagree with says.... just watch the first damn video...
wait did they FINALLY go back on that!? imma check that out and hopefully that means what i hope it means and isnt the metnion of the potion launchers which arent what im talking about...
uhhh can ya link the site you got that quote from or hopefully even the stream or podcast that came from? i wanna check and see if STEVEN HIMSELF said that and thats not either a paraphrase or leavin out the context before or after probably mentioning the potion launcher which again isnt even close to what anyone who wants firearm style weapons is talking about. not that i would be opoosed to it but that its not what this conversation is about.
And here is another one for you. Most topics have been covered by Intrepid and the wiki has all the relevant links and handy reference numbers that show exactly when and where they were said. You may want something, but if you have references and answers going back years where the guy who is going to make his game his way that don't align with your takes, you pretty much shit outta luck.
As we said in the past, were not really about that black powder life. Instead it's really going to be focused on the arcane arts: The elements; the use of radiance and darkness; and then those being employed in larger weaponry, such as the type of siege weaponry between ship battles as well as those and sieges. A potion launcher is an example of the arcane energies that can be mastered in order to facilitate these highly destructive alchemical blends that can be created.[5] – Steven Sharif
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Guns_and_gunpowder
Why would anyone?
If we wanted to watch a video, we would be on YouTube. We come to forums for discussion.
Dude. Did you even read the quote from Steven on the Wiki page? Steven said no.
Is a Flintlock a Gunpowder Weapon ? Because apparently from the Wiki, Gunpowder Weapons will not exist in Ashes of Creation.
" Yet "
This could change with an Expansion that may come a few Years after the Release of Ashes of Creation Vanilla. I can totally see People discovering some ancient Technology and/or Culture in some Ruins or so,
or the Lore Races of Verra develop Flintlocks themself -> or maybe they find another Race via the Portals from another World. Something like a Third Human or Dwarf Race or whatever.
Is not there yet. But it could come.
first thing, a weapon added via an expansion for a rpg doesnt need to be GOOD by any means and like i said, it wouldnt be hard as i will repeat, long reloads with expensive ammo and poor accuracy through the evasion system where attacks can miss to force gunners to have to be mid range AT MOST to be effective. its not hard if you just think about what the irl restrictions where with these could have a place primarily in wars and larger group conflict as well as in pve boss raids where you have many gunners who on average while in closer to mid range will put out not just comparable but more average dps while within that sweet spot where they are still at risk of big bosses being able to target them AND with the added risk of perhaps even not just the fact that they do even more dps risking accidental aggro pulls but you could use the fact that they would be loud to justify giving firearms an added aggro buildup since its blindingly obvious what just delt a massive blow to the big giant monster and that monster aint gonna be too pleased about that meaning guns would be a challenge to work around in groups without skilled tanks and ranged dps who know how to manage their aggression.
for the billionth time, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT FUCKING BLACK POWDER.... PLEASE READ THE FULL OR EVEN JUST PARTIAL POST BEFORE YA SAY SOMETHING... beyond that, on a baser level, your saying i should just give up because before the game was even really that far in development steven made a choice on the matter? for one thing whos to say his opinion CAN NEVER change so why stop when it can possibly be the tipping point to convince him and beyond that, why should i have to stop it i at least somehow enjoy tormenting myself through the constant lack of people bothering to read the post like you literally just did... maybe i just like to argue on hot button topics and partially i might be hoping i hit a jackpot on the right combo of words to convince steven and the team... who knows but i aint gonna stop suggesting it...
because its the version of this that doesnt involve having to read through my terrible writing and the guy who i was quoting didnt seem to bother read the post so i figured he must of found my world wall adequatly boring enough to not read and woulda prefered to get the point through watching a quick like 17 min video that you dont even haveta watch all the way through to get to the point of how to balance guns.
i already responded to pretty much the same comment above but i will say to you, did you read the fucking main post? i literally stated that i explicitly knew stevens stance and that this is not the first time i have made a discussion like this so i fucking know.... please fucking read the post before commenting cause its only more annoying each time to haveta correct people who clearly didnt even bother to give me that curtesy before saying dumb shit....
ok and why is it that you prefer high fantasy since thats your sticking point? at this point for me for people like you, i feel this is the better question to just debate why we enjoy whatever style we consume so why pray tell in a game that will play out more like a civilization and realistic type world, would a historical fiction fantasy not be the better choice for both role playing options which more is never bad in a rpg and also from a gameplay standpoint cause more options to make your builds makes it more fun to really be able to make YOUR OWN unique build that perhaps no one else has even thought of yet?
i mean flintlock in terms of the physical looks and design but not in the black powder as i mentioned in my original post, magical firearms using magic fire runs and mana crystals that detonate on the hammer strike releasing mana into the fire run to than propel the bullet with the option lore wise as to justify why guns CAN (not inherently are but possible can) be as powerful as a knights sword would be that you can add durability runes to improve the potential output you can release to increaase the bullet velocity and increase the bullets durability as well as give it maybe wind runes for propolsion that could even lend to guided shots and so on.
firstly i would like to appluad you for being LITERALLY the first person to actually state why even having guns in the game would be too obtrusive for your style you would prefer the game to be. i mean this quite genuinly but THANK YOU for actually stating your opinion AND adding your reasoning. i will however state that that is a poor reason in light of how ashes will be customizable as im sure especially in light of your POV, the suggestion could be made to make it so cannons and firearms could have their own slider in the audio tab to turn them down or even off if you like. everything about at least the ui and vfx are supposed to be adjustable so why not the sfx as well? infact i will add that as a suggestion in my original post in this thread cause thats a good idea regardless of if guns are added or not.
thats where your wrong. in a world where you have monsters and bandits and hell, the corruption of evil elder gods around every damn corner, there is plenty of reasons to find ways to kill things better and faster as well as easier in the moment at least especailly since MOST people wont be mages or able to even use magic so no duh that amoung say fighters, plenty if it were a real world would love a ranged option they wouldnt have to sink time into to give them a way to do damage at range very quickly and meaningfully even if its heavily limited in use and ESPECIALLY the common people who live their day to day like normal people rather than adventerers, THEY 100% WOULD LOVE something that they could use to defend themselves and their families from those bandits and monsters that they wouldnt have to waste INORDINATE amounts of time learning to use for what often could be little to no benefit so something always ready and easy to use in the moment at least would 100% be important and especially to the guard guarassions who would want an easy way to arm normal people perhaps without good specific training yet or maybe even at all with options they can easily learn to use well and could give them the power they need to do their job. hell the only reason it took so long irl for guns to be made wasnt because they were hard to understand or make perse but that they were expensive and that they were to troublesome in their preparation before use and after use to be worth it despite their overwhelming power and ease of use after the preparation with the knowledge irl to make guns and gunpowder were around since like the like 900 bce where gun powder came around in chinese fireworks and like the 1000s when the first 'gun' was at least made if of course still not mass produced for the aforementioned reasons.
So, learn how to use some basic sentence structure.
I mean, your entire OP can be restated as "I'd like to see wands sometimes take the form of guns, because reasons".
well the deal with the crossbows to me sounded more like the map size expansion to 1200km was too much scope creep to justfiy keeping in crossbows when bows did the job. i bet ya all my money that crossbows at least will 100% make a comeback in the exact style of a future expansion or dlc type thing after launch when they have more time to work on adding the fun extra stuff.
theres a big difference, unless you are of the opinion that likely crossbows is like saying 'i want bows but that look like guns' as well which is weird cause crossbows are high fantasy stuff especially since im talking about guns that wouldnt require the user to have any innate magic with lore wise, they would be made by people who cant use magic who want quick and easy to use options similar to magics power but something that they can use even if its limited and hard to prepare because having a 1 off fireball would still be a HUGE advatange even for a mage who than doesnt haveta waste their mana casting al their fire balls and instead can save their mana to use all on one fucking giant ass spirit bomb.
Guy wants firearms in his fantasy game.
Guy gets angry at those who disagree.
Guy probably needs a RL psych evaluation and new keyboard.
The stranger's eyes lifted to the blood red cloud on the horizon.
'We have to move. It's not safe here.'
The guns you are suggesting offer up an alternative to magic, but it's basically just the same thing. All you are trying to do is turn everyone in to a caster.
Since we all have the option to spec in to magic if we want to do so, a character that opts to not spec that way should not have an alternative avenue to the same kind of thing. If you opt to not have a build with magic, you opt to not have a build with those options.
So you want a super slow, super expensive, super unreliable RANGED weapon THAT'S SHIT AT RANGE
Holy hell that's definitely one of the suggestions of all time. Amazing design. Super fun. Definitely should be added.