Summoner (Necromancer specifically) class discussion.

Pedwin

Hey, not to be a pest, I'm reaching out as someone who has been following for a while now. One of the things that most excites me about this game is the rich diversity of class options. The class most sticking out to me being the summoner, and then the necromancer sub-class. My question is regarding this game and summons (more specifically wondering how the necromancer will be handled) Will the summoner archetypes be treated like something in say Guild Wars 2? Basically, a handful of summons that just kind of float around you. Maybe more like Elder Scrolls Online? Which was more or less, ability attacks that incorporated a minion like creature in the different attack spell animations. Or will we be getting something more akin to a True Necromancer. Basically, a slow roll minion class, where you start off weak because you are just you, and then as you kill and animate (or summon) things you build your army up and grow stronger (obviously with an eventual minion cap being achieved through either a mix of a couple large creatures, or a handful of medium strength creatures, or a bunch of weaker disposable minions). Very few games have gone with a true necromancer approach on classes like this due to a variety of reasons, but as a player I find its the variation on summoner (more or less necromancer) classes the most fun. Strategizing how to send in waves of minions, keeping your own position in mind so you don't just get murked to get around them having to kill your army, it's a high-risk high-reward style of play that just isn't seen often due to the challenges developers have in balancing/coding something of that nature. But honestly, just being some self or even party buffer with a bone aesthetic or something of the sort, is a tired trope to simplify the class that's generally used. I think however the team chooses to handle things, i will love the game regardless though.

kaioalc

The only info we have gotten on the summoner is that you can either elect to have multiple weaker summons active or one more powerful summon active. What or how they are summoned are still a mystery at the moment. We certainly don't know about the Necro side as we don't even have a fraction of the base side known.

Pedwin

Honestly that is fair, and i 100% am jumping the gun on this, mostly i guess I'm just hoping for a bit of insight incase there was something i missed

Dygz

I think how many Necromancer summons appear will depend on the specific augment attached to the specific Active Skill.

Seems like waves would have to be an augment attached to something, like Hallowed Ground, which remains active for 30+ seconds.

Pedwin

So one of the main issues id say with making the summons temporary like that is that there is no longer any sort of build up. One of the big appeals to something like a necromancer is you start off horrifically weak, you have to earn your army, you don't just have one available that you can summon on a whim. It leaves you weak, and vulnerable when you are caught off guard, it means death is a hard push back, but it also means you have a good deal of strength when at your prime. Quite honestly from a playstyle perspective, making it on a timer similar to "Army of the Dead" from WoW DK's while neat, just feels bad man for the overall playstyle that i personally would want out of something like a class like that. I don't want instant gratification, i want to be weak when i haven't put in the effort or punished because i made a mistake. Conversely i want to be strong when that effort is put in. Its the feeling of being the frail necromancer out fighting a low level goblin and barely surviving, to suddenly its you and your goblin skeleton taking on the next bad guy, up till its you and a group of skeletons you've augmented with bone armor and weapons after spending some time building yourself up, now able to take on a creature that normally might take 2-3 people to down. Conversely, that feeling of always being on guard, because you yourself are a target to other players wishing to pvp, because they know if you die, your creations go with you, so you have to play with a high level of awareness, and strategy to both maneuver your minions, and protect yourself, all while possibly juggling other mechanics, like maybe some skills requiring you to use your own health as a casting component leaving you in a potentially vulnerable state if you miscalculate, or even the risk of killing yourself in the heat of the moment. Hell, leaving yourself vulnerable because you left part of your army to defend an objective or do a task, while you try to prevent you and your friends from being flanked from behind. Gameplay like that is what i dream of. But i also recognize i may very well be alone in that thought process.

willsummon

Age of Conan Necromancer was the most well done. Except for agro control. The Necromancer used a pet point system that and had a choice of several types of permanent pets, costing different pet points.

The Necromancer could have a few powerful pets, or several weak pets, or a combination. Also, the pet points could be increased at the cost of making the Necromancer more weaker to attacks, or the pet points could be decreased, allowing the Necromancer to do more spell damage.

The spells for the Necromancer ranged from decay damage over time to ice spells.

Also, the Necromancer and their pets had a chance to proc a temporary pets on the killing of an enemy.

Overall the Age of Conan Necromancer was a very flexible class.

I hope the Summoner archetype in general uses a pet point system.

Pedwin

Ive never really played age of conan, but that sounds like a pretty solid system for a class like necromancer.

willsummon

Pedwin wrote: »

Ive never really played age of conan, but that sounds like a pretty solid system for a class like necromancer.

The Necromancer is one of the highlights of an otherwise flawed game that Age of Conan is.

The only issue with the Necromancer was having pets hold agro in early game, even though there was a ability that was suppose to temporarily empower a pet to hold agro.

Like Archage, Age of Conan had a lot of good ideas, but its flaws held the game back.

Saabynator

I really like the necros in EQ2. Their spells is based around rot, disease and the like. DoTs, slows, debuffs etc. They have a selection of undead pets they can choose from, depending on their situation. Then they have "fire and forget" pets, like a pack of rats, that is like a living DoT. They can summon your dead corpse from the buttom of a dungeon... It seems like a good way for a necro to play.

Aszkalon

Pedwin wrote: »

One of the things that most excites me about this game is the rich diversity of class options.

The class most sticking out to me being the summoner, and then the necromancer sub-class.

" Hmmm ? Did somesay say ... ... ... Necromancer ? "

Pedwin wrote: »

Or will we be getting something more akin to a True Necromancer. Basically, a slow roll minion class, where you start off weak because you are just you, and then as you kill and animate (or summon) things you build your army up and grow stronger (obviously with an eventual minion cap being achieved through either a mix of a couple large creatures, or a handful of medium strength creatures, or a bunch of weaker disposable minions).

Right now, i imagine a Necromancer to be just a Summoner like every "other" Summoner Archetype either with or without a certain Subclass,

same Mechanics as all others aside from a few varying Abilities - and the "Optics" of Course will be that You use "Ghosts" as a "good" Necromancer - and undead Minions like Skeletons or Zombies as a "bad" Necromancer.

Somehow like this, i understood it.

Pedwin wrote: »

Very few games have gone with a true necromancer approach on classes like this due to a variety of reasons, but as a player I find its the variation on summoner (more or less necromancer) classes the most fun. Strategizing how to send in waves of minions, keeping your own position in mind so you don't just get murked to get around them having to kill your army, it's a high-risk high-reward style of play that just isn't seen often due to the challenges developers have in balancing/coding something of that nature.

I wonder how between like a single powerful Summon or several weaker Summons, how well the Balance of the Game will allow the Necromancer to protect him/herself.

A Skill that transfer's Damage taken directly to the Summons would be nice, in Case some agile PvP'ers can just pass the Summons and attack the Necromancer directly.

I don't even see that as overpowered, because the "Power" between the Necromancer and his Summons is still split, even if no Battle-Pet is involved.

Pedwin wrote: »

But honestly, just being some self or even party buffer with a bone aesthetic or something of the sort, is a tired trope to simplify the class that's generally used. I think however the team chooses to handle things, i will love the game regardless though.

Took the Words right out of my Mouth. I too personally hope, it will be a bit "more" than just a Replacement of every other Summoner-Archetype with a few Boney and/or Undead Looks, Models, Aestetics.

I won't complain if it should be just that in the End -> but of Course i will always hope for more - and always ask and dare the Developers to give Subclass/Second Class-Archetypes a bit more of Lore, Depth, Atmosphere and a Feeling of Immersion. 😁👍

Pedwin

Aszkalon wrote: »

Pedwin wrote: »

One of the things that most excites me about this game is the rich diversity of class options.

The class most sticking out to me being the summoner, and then the necromancer sub-class.

" Hmmm ? Did somesay say ... ... ... Necromancer ? "

Pedwin wrote: »

Or will we be getting something more akin to a True Necromancer. Basically, a slow roll minion class, where you start off weak because you are just you, and then as you kill and animate (or summon) things you build your army up and grow stronger (obviously with an eventual minion cap being achieved through either a mix of a couple large creatures, or a handful of medium strength creatures, or a bunch of weaker disposable minions).

Right now, i imagine a Necromancer to be just a Summoner like every "other" Summoner Archetype either with or without a certain Subclass,

same Mechanics as all others aside from a few varying Abilities - and the "Optics" of Course will be that You use "Ghosts" as a "good" Necromancer - and undead Minions like Skeletons or Zombies as a "bad" Necromancer.

Somehow like this, i understood it.

Pedwin wrote: »

Very few games have gone with a true necromancer approach on classes like this due to a variety of reasons, but as a player I find its the variation on summoner (more or less necromancer) classes the most fun. Strategizing how to send in waves of minions, keeping your own position in mind so you don't just get murked to get around them having to kill your army, it's a high-risk high-reward style of play that just isn't seen often due to the challenges developers have in balancing/coding something of that nature.

I wonder how between like a single powerful Summon or several weaker Summons, how well the Balance of the Game will allow the Necromancer to protect him/herself.

A Skill that transfer's Damage taken directly to the Summons would be nice, in Case some agile PvP'ers can just pass the Summons and attack the Necromancer directly.

I don't even see that as overpowered, because the "Power" between the Necromancer and his Summons is still split, even if no Battle-Pet is involved.

Pedwin wrote: »

But honestly, just being some self or even party buffer with a bone aesthetic or something of the sort, is a tired trope to simplify the class that's generally used. I think however the team chooses to handle things, i will love the game regardless though.

Took the Words right out of my Mouth. I too personally hope, it will be a bit "more" than just a Replacement of every other Summoner-Archetype with a few Boney and/or Undead Looks, Models, Aestetics.

I won't complain if it should be just that in the End -> but of Course i will always hope for more - and always ask and dare the Developers to give Subclass/Second Class-Archetypes a bit more of Lore, Depth, Atmosphere and a Feeling of Immersion. 😁👍

You strike me as a kindred spirit in this matter hah. Im glad there are other necromancy die hards out there.

Chonkers1

1

Finov

willsummon wrote: »

Age of Conan Necromancer was the most well done. Except for agro control. The Necromancer used a pet point system that and had a choice of several types of permanent pets, costing different pet points.

The Necromancer could have a few powerful pets, or several weak pets, or a combination. Also, the pet points could be increased at the cost of making the Necromancer more weaker to attacks, or the pet points could be decreased, allowing the Necromancer to do more spell damage.

The spells for the Necromancer ranged from decay damage over time to ice spells.

Also, the Necromancer and their pets had a chance to proc a temporary pets on the killing of an enemy.

Overall the Age of Conan Necromancer was a very flexible class.

I hope the Summoner archetype in general uses a pet point system.

I completely agree that the necromancer in Age of Conan is the best made. Just because the necromancer's pets quickly ran up to the enemy and attacked him, and also quickly returned back. Each pet had a passive effect from the attack. But I didn't like the character's attacking ice magic itself. There was also black magic that poisoned and cursed the enemy. I really like the green magic of the character in GW2, but the pets are just disgusting.

Pedwin

Finov wrote: »

I really like the green magic of the character in GW2, but the pets are just disgusting.

Truthfully i absolutely hated the necromancer in GW2 it handled in nearly every tropey way possible to side step the potential of what the class could actually be. I remember reading on it that they did that because they just didn't want to make it too complex on the coding side and didn't have the time to dedicate to it to make sure it was balanced properly etc. So they took a lot of shortcuts, and really it felt like a fairly generic caster class, with a few built in minions that had no oomph to them. I dont want a reskinned mage with a couple of brain dead pets that rely 100% on AI to do everything. I know its asking a lot, but a system where the caster actually has a bit more input into their pets actions would be ideal, where your spells actually fit the theme of a dark caster, using elements of life sacrifice (be it yourself, an ally, or an enemy) or making weapons out of bone, all the gruesome things that people think when they think of a necromancer, not a simplified dumbed down support character (which ive seen that done before, and i hate it) or just a reskin of a generic caster (side eyes elder scrolls online. That thing is hardly a necromancer! its just a generic caster with undead animations! GW2 isn't too far off from that themselves, being only marginally better than ESO)

willsummon

Finov wrote: »

I completely agree that the necromancer in Age of Conan is the best made. Just because the necromancer's pets quickly ran up to the enemy and attacked him, and also quickly returned back. Each pet had a passive effect from the attack. But I didn't like the character's attacking ice magic itself. There was also black magic that poisoned and cursed the enemy. I really like the green magic of the character in GW2, but the pets are just disgusting.

I understand why Funcom put the Necromancer and Ice Mage together. "Icy touch of death" and all that. But, I agree it did not fully fit. At least with the pet point system for the Necromancer let the Necromancer a pet class, or have no pets and be a powerful Ice Mage.

I have not played GW2, so I cannot comment on that game.

Arya_Yeshe

There should be a Necromancer specialized in spirits and demons, like a Demonologist of some sort

willsummon

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

There should be a Necromancer specialized in spirits and demons, like a Demonologist of some sort

That is a good point. I was kind of hoping, while the Necromancer specializes in undead. The Warlock specializes in demons and the Shadowmancer deals with dark spirits, while the Shaman handles holy spirits.

Pedwin

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

There should be a Necromancer specialized in spirits and demons, like a Demonologist of some sort

Yea, generally speaking that would be a warlock for demons, and shaman for spirits as will stated

Finov

Pedwin wrote: »

Finov wrote: »

I really like the green magic of the character in GW2, but the pets are just disgusting.

Truthfully i absolutely hated the necromancer in GW2 it handled in nearly every tropey way possible to side step the potential of what the class could actually be. I remember reading on it that they did that because they just didn't want to make it too complex on the coding side and didn't have the time to dedicate to it to make sure it was balanced properly etc. So they took a lot of shortcuts, and really it felt like a fairly generic caster class, with a few built in minions that had no oomph to them. I dont want a reskinned mage with a couple of brain dead pets that rely 100% on AI to do everything. I know its asking a lot, but a system where the caster actually has a bit more input into their pets actions would be ideal, where your spells actually fit the theme of a dark caster, using elements of life sacrifice (be it yourself, an ally, or an enemy) or making weapons out of bone, all the gruesome things that people think when they think of a necromancer, not a simplified dumbed down support character (which ive seen that done before, and i hate it) or just a reskin of a generic caster (side eyes elder scrolls online. That thing is hardly a necromancer! its just a generic caster with undead animations! GW2 isn't too far off from that themselves, being only marginally better than ESO)

I remember when I played GW2 for a necromancer in the year 2015, they had a bug when all the summoned pets died when changing weapons or moving to another location (I don't remember exactly). They fixed this bug very quickly, literally in 1 day. But after that, the pets became 1000% dumber. Before the bug, when you start attacking the enemy, the pets immediately ran to be him, and after that bug and fix, the pets began to stand still for about 3 seconds, after they began to attack. This is still the case((. Six months later, the game was switched to a frituplay and new classes were introduced that were stronger than all vanilla classes. To buy a new addon. At the moment, playing for a necromancer with pets in pvp is impossible because they die very quickly from new classes that have AOE skills and the pets do not have time to do anything and die, the funny thing is that they are not taken into the target, they will die quickly anyway. And before this bug, you could play as a necromancer with pets and compete in pvp. It's very sad.

The best AI implementation for a necromancer is in Age of Conan. The fact is that the game had a fast running mechanic. The player could press the shift key and start a sprint on a certain stamina. As far as I remember, different classes had different amounts of stamina. A warrior has more, a magician has less. And so. The necromancer's pets also had stamina, which was spent, and so let's say their own shift key. And when you sent your skeletons to the enemy, they ran very quickly to him and back if necessary and if they had stamina left. It all looked incredibly cool, just amazing. When an army of 8 skeletons or zombies is chasing your opponent just without letting him go. Of course, they didn't hit the enemy super hard there, but you could always rely on them knowing that they would do their damage, and not stand still doing nothing and die 3-5 seconds after the start of the fight.

Finov

willsummon wrote: »

Finov wrote: »

I completely agree that the necromancer in Age of Conan is the best made. Just because the necromancer's pets quickly ran up to the enemy and attacked him, and also quickly returned back. Each pet had a passive effect from the attack. But I didn't like the character's attacking ice magic itself. There was also black magic that poisoned and cursed the enemy. I really like the green magic of the character in GW2, but the pets are just disgusting.

I understand why Funcom put the Necromancer and Ice Mage together. "Icy touch of death" and all that. But, I agree it did not fully fit. At least with the pet point system for the Necromancer let the Necromancer a pet class, or have no pets and be a powerful Ice Mage.

I have not played GW2, so I cannot comment on that game.

Yes, they just made an ice mage that way.

Finov

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

There should be a Necromancer specialized in spirits and demons, like a

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

There should be a Necromancer specialized in spirits and demons, like a Demonologist of some sort

Finov

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

There should be a Necromancer specialized in spirits and demons, like a Demonologist of some sort

If you summon demons, then it's a demonologist or a warlock.

Aszkalon

Pedwin wrote: »

You strike me as a kindred spirit in this matter hah. Im glad there are other necromancy die hards out there.

Thanks for the kind Words,


but actually - Please don't laugh at me - > i just really, really, REALLY haven't played an actually decently designed Necromancer Character anywhere in ANY Fantasy-Universe i liked or VideoGame i liked to play,

since the Expansion of Diablo Two. I kid' you not,
it's been TWENTY - FULL - YEARS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Since i really last enjoyed playing a Necromancer.



The Death-Knight Class from a certain MMO named World of (WoW-Token)-Warcraft comes a little bit close, but it feels cheap and not really like a Necromancer,

because duuuh -> it is not a Necromancer, but a twitching and flinching Knight who just happens to be able to summon Undeads on his Side.


Uff. I miss the good, old Days. Part of me wonders to this Day, why i didn't became an edgy Teenager between 1995 and 2005 (<- born in 1985) and when i saw just SO. MANY. good, dark and/or edgy Fantasy-Tropes, Classes, Characters, etc.

I just miss the good, old Days. Sorry for making it sound like it is about "me",

but i think i am just like Sir Steven in that regard. I just want to relive the good, funny Days a little bit, when playing a Fantasy-Game was just SO. MUCH. FUN. !! 😁



I personally think -> the whole Stuff and Content with the whole Caravan-System, "Node-System", Siege-System, Monster-Coin-System - and much more,

is WAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY harder to design in a good, satisfying way - than just to design a good Summoner-Class/Specc that is designed to be a Necromancer.



Meaning, i take it easy and have full Trust in Sir Steven and his mighty Crew. If he can make such a grand, glorious Game a Reality - than making a good Necromancer-Class (Specc for the Summoner) should be easily being able to be manageable for the Intrepid-Crew as well. . 😁

Pedwin

Aszkalon wrote: »

Pedwin wrote: »

You strike me as a kindred spirit in this matter hah. Im glad there are other necromancy die hards out there.

Thanks for the kind Words,


but actually - Please don't laugh at me - > i just really, really, REALLY haven't played an actually decently designed Necromancer Character anywhere in ANY Fantasy-Universe i liked or VideoGame i liked to play,

since the Expansion of Diablo Two. I kid' you not,
it's been TWENTY - FULL - YEARS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Since i really last enjoyed playing a Necromancer.



The Death-Knight Class from a certain MMO named World of (WoW-Taken)-Warcraft comes a little bit close, but it feels cheap and not really like a Necromancer,

because duuuh -> it is not a Necromancer, but a twitching and flinching Knight who just happens to be able to summon Undeads on his Side.


Uff. I miss the good, old Days. Part of me wonders to this Day, why i didn't became an edgy Teenager between 1995 and 2005 (<- born in 1985) and when i saw just SO. MANY. good, dark and/or edgy Fantasy-Tropes, Classes, Characters, etc.

I just miss the good, old Days. Sorry for making it sound like it is about "me",

but i think i am just like Sir Steven in that regard. I just want to relive the good, funny Days a little bit, when playing a Fantasy-Game was just SO. MUCH. FUN. !! 😁



I personally think -> the whole Stuff and Content with the whole Caravan-System, "Node-System", Siege-System, Monster-Coin-System - and much more,

is WAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY harder to design in a good, satisfying way - than just to design a good Summoner-Class/Specc that is designed to be a Necromancer.



Meaning, i take it easy and have full Trust in Sir Steven and his mighty Crew. If he can make such a grand, glorious Game a Reality - than making a good Necromancer-Class (Specc for the Summoner) should be easily being able to be manageable for the Intrepid-Crew as well. . 😁

You are literally in the exact same spot i am in then. I just want a well designed necromancer as well, and im tired of it being poorly done.

Smaashley

willsummon wrote: »

Age of Conan Necromancer was the most well done. Except for agro control. The Necromancer used a pet point system that and had a choice of several types of permanent pets, costing different pet points.

The Necromancer could have a few powerful pets, or several weak pets, or a combination. Also, the pet points could be increased at the cost of making the Necromancer more weaker to attacks, or the pet points could be decreased, allowing the Necromancer to do more spell damage.

The spells for the Necromancer ranged from decay damage over time to ice spells.

Also, the Necromancer and their pets had a chance to proc a temporary pets on the killing of an enemy.

Overall the Age of Conan Necromancer was a very flexible class.

I hope the Summoner archetype in general uses a pet point system.

I really like that type of system, and not only for summoners/necromancers. It opens up so many different playstyle.

nanfoodle

My main in EQ1 was a Dark Elf Necro named Gravin. I loved the fact I could make or break teams. Often being able to play with anyone to duo or teamed. Loved going to raid zones and soloing trash mobs. Everyone begging to come play with me when they really needed levels. I would be devided if Ashes Necro was anything like the one from EQ1. I really miss playing a Bard. Gonna have to wait and see.

Aszkalon

Pedwin wrote: »

You are literally in the exact same spot i am in then. I just want a well designed necromancer as well, and im tired of it being poorly done.

100.000% agree.


Enough "cheap, poor quality" Necromancers, Please.

It is unfathomable how VideoGames fail since Years and Years on end to deliver what others "effortlessly" delivered before.

Be it in a Hack-and-Slash like Diablo II,
or a Game like Heroes of Might and Magic Three,

there were a few Games in which Necromancy and undead Aesthetics were done just SO wonderfully beautiful, it was almost criminal when modern Games failed to re-create it.

Finov

Aszkalon wrote: »

Pedwin wrote: »

You are literally in the exact same spot i am in then. I just want a well designed necromancer as well, and im tired of it being poorly done.

It is unfathomable how VideoGames fail since Years and Years on end to deliver what others "effortlessly" delivered before.

there were a few Games in which Necromancy and undead Aesthetics were done just SO wonderfully beautiful, it was almost criminal when modern Games failed to re-create it.

I completely agree.

Pedwin

Aszkalon wrote: »

there were a few Games in which Necromancy and undead Aesthetics were done just SO wonderfully beautiful, it was almost criminal when modern Games failed to re-create it.

1,000% agree with you on this.

Aszkalon

Even if i have more or less already said it,

but when it is about " Necromancy " done right - and the Feeling, the Aesthetics, the Vibe and Atmosphere around this spooky, scary World between Life and Death that is the Realm of the Undead,


i think Diablo II had done it really really well -> and " ESPECIALLY " Heroes of Might and Magic Three. Maybe a bit of the later Heroes of Might and Magic Games as well, but especially the Third Game.

Doing this is not hard. Not when People know how to write, design (and program^^) a calm, stoic and melanchonic Realm of eerie Silence, dark Beauty - and the Fantasy-Vibe of the mysterious and impalpable running wild.

Similar like the Feywild - or the Hells. But not like any of them, despite those other Two Realms also being pure Fantasy and boundless in Inspiration.


Just a Realm you can barely understand even if you think You know everything about Necromancy.

Pedwin

It absolutely has been done well in the past to your point, and it's just a shame so many modern games fall flat when trying to recreate that essence of the class.